Quote from: Scooter on August 31, 2023, 01:33:09 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 01:31:30 PM

So you can call it "snowflake edition" or whatever, but crux is that the games are simply focusing on different playstyles. If you want grittier 5e, you can always houserule it.

Right children's play style with 5th or mature play-style with TSR editions.

This is probably a true statement, but not for the HP-recovery mechanics. I think trying to shelter the readers from "problematic" issues is what has turned 5e into a kid's game. It's been carefully currated to remove uncomfortable topics, much like a Saturday morning cartoon would. Could you add these things in? Sure! Unless you're someone who only runs pre-gen adventures; then you're stuck with whatever milquetoast story they give you.

But if the HP-recovery mechanics are the only thing keeping you from enjoying 5e, just houserule it. What's the problem?

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 31, 2023, 12:53:39 PM
Hit points have nothing to do with realism. Slow natural recovery simply makes the game more challenging. Those who want to play a challenging game play classic D&D.

That's the way D&D was and it makes sense.  Losing 40 hit points and then sleeping for 8 hours and bam your ok is just stupid.   No one sleeps for 8 hours and is fine, which is way hospitals exist.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 31, 2023, 12:53:39 PM
Those who want to play heroes and tell a story play WOTC D&D.

That's a silly comment.  You can play a hero and and tell a story with the earlier editions   The difference is that the older editions don't make characters superheroes at first level.  5e is made so everyone wins and characters are almost difficult to die (because so many people have a fit about characters dying.

In games like OSE characters arent going to go into every room and not fight everyone because there is a real chance of dying.   searching isnt one skill and bam I know everything about the room.   Players have to role playing searching.

Quote from: Scooter on August 31, 2023, 01:12:34 PM

At 1 per day I allowed Con bonus to be added.

Yeah that totally makes sense.

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 31, 2023, 01:47:59 PM
When everyone is a hero, no one can actually be a hero.

Exactly.  Quoted for truth.

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 01:31:30 PM
Modern DnD simply focuses on a different aspect of roleplaying. By making characters more resilient to dying, players can become more invested in them, developing backstories, relationships, and whatnot. There was another thread on here recently where people had said backstories weren't important in early DnD because death was so common.

It's not about making characters more resilient, its about making characters superheroes so they can't die because some many gamers these days are snowflakes who cannot stand characters dying.  If people like that playstyle, fine.  But if I am going to play a character who is a superhero off the bat, I can play a video game and not have to deal with books, dice or people.

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 01:31:30 PMWhy develop a character that can be taken out by a well-placed arrow?

Because that makes the character a hero.   Knowing not to get in every fight and having to think and plan (where characters in 5e where they know 99% of the time they are going to win.

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 01:31:30 PM
So you can call it "snowflake edition" or whatever, but crux is that the games are simply focusing on different playstyles. If you want grittier 5e, you can always houserule it.

Houserulling doesn't fix the many broken things about the rules.  It's just better to go play something else that works better.

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 31, 2023, 01:47:59 PM

Quote from: Scooter on August 31, 2023, 01:31:50 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 31, 2023, 12:53:39 PM
Those who want to play heroes and tell a story play WOTC D&D.

You can't become a hero under snowflake conditions.

When everyone is a hero, no one can actually be a hero.

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 31, 2023, 02:12:28 PM

It's not about making characters more resilient, its about making characters superheroes so they can't die because some many gamers these days are snowflakes who cannot stand characters dying. 

5e WAS designed for snowflake gamers.  Period

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 31, 2023, 02:12:28 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 01:31:30 PM
Modern DnD simply focuses on a different aspect of roleplaying. By making characters more resilient to dying, players can become more invested in them, developing backstories, relationships, and whatnot. There was another thread on here recently where people had said backstories weren't important in early DnD because death was so common.

It's not about making characters more resilient, its about making characters superheroes so they can't die because some many gamers these days are snowflakes who cannot stand characters dying.  If people like that playstyle, fine.  But if I am going to play a character who is a superhero off the bat, I can play a video game and not have to deal with books, dice or people.

So you're incapable of finding ways to challenge players that doesn't require shoving a sword through their gut. Got it.

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 31, 2023, 02:12:28 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 01:31:30 PMWhy develop a character that can be taken out by a well-placed arrow?

Because that makes the character a hero.   Knowing not to get in every fight and having to think and plan (where characters in 5e where they know 99% of the time they are going to win.

Spending time giving a character a detailed backstory at CharGen only to die at 1st level is heroic?? Not sure you understood the context behind that (retorical) question.

But anyway, are you saying heroism is the only metric by which characters are defined in early DnD, and that being relatively weak is what makes them heroic? Sorry, but I fail to see the actual relation here. Achilles was nigh-invulerable. Would you say he wasn't a hero because he was so hard to kill? If someone plays an evil bastard thief who steals every chance he gets, even from poor folk, is he a hero because he has low HP?

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 31, 2023, 02:12:28 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 01:31:30 PM
So you can call it "snowflake edition" or whatever, but crux is that the games are simply focusing on different playstyles. If you want grittier 5e, you can always houserule it.

Houserulling doesn't fix the many broken things about the rules.  It's just better to go play something else that works better.

Yeah, it's almost like if you want a particular experience, you find the system that caters to it. I do find it curious how you say fixing the broken rules won't fix the broken rules. Almost like this is actually nothing more than another "fuck 5e" rant.

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 02:58:59 PM

So you're incapable of finding ways to challenge players that doesn't require shoving a sword through their gut. Got it.

Hmm, straw man argument by a snowflake.  Who wudda thunk it?

Quote from: Scooter on August 31, 2023, 03:21:31 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 02:58:59 PM

So you're incapable of finding ways to challenge players that doesn't require shoving a sword through their gut. Got it.

Hmm, straw man argument by a snowflake.  Who wudda thunk it?

No. Just deductive reasoning skills beyond your ability to understand.

Quote from: Scooter on August 31, 2023, 02:49:28 PM
5e WAS designed for snowflake gamers.  Period

You don't have to sell me, you are preaching to the choir.   It's people like Effete who doesn't understand that.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 31, 2023, 12:53:39 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 31, 2023, 11:06:12 AM
[
In OSE, they sleep for 8 hours and get 1d3 hit points back which is more realistic.

Hit points have nothing to do with realism. Slow natural recovery simply makes the game more challenging. Those who want to play a challenging game play classic D&D. Those who want to play heroes and tell a story play WOTC D&D.

For me, the most story-oriented system is the old World of Darkness series by White Wolf.  It can be pretty challenging for players as well. Their D10 system with health levels instead of HP can mean instadeath more often than your typical D&D game, at least for 2E and beyond.

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 02:58:59 PM
So you're incapable of finding ways to challenge players that doesn't require shoving a sword through their gut. Got it.

No, I can.  However if it becomes too difficult players start to complain and leave.  But then again, maybe that would be a good thing.

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 02:58:59 PMSpending time giving a character a detailed backstory at CharGen only to die at 1st level is heroic?? Not sure you understood the context behind that (retorical) question.

No, creating a detailed backstory at level 1 is stupid.  You wait until you are level 2 or 3 before you do that.   

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 02:58:59 PM
Houserulling doesn't fix the many broken things about the rules.  It's just better to go play something else that works better.

It's not worth trying to fix all of the things that are broken about 5e.   It's easier to find a better system that works better and play that instead.

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 02:58:59 PM
Yeah, it's almost like if you want a particular experience, you find the system that caters to it. I do find it curious how you say fixing the broken rules won't fix the broken rules. Almost like this is actually nothing more than another "fuck 5e" rant.

No, I found a system that gives me the D&D feeling and the characters aren't superheroes at level 1 which makes 5e D&D in name only.   Look around, watch some videos.  My complaints about the system are being talked about by many people.

Quote from: GhostNinja on August 31, 2023, 04:01:52 PM

Quote from: Scooter on August 31, 2023, 02:49:28 PM
5e WAS designed for snowflake gamers.  Period

You don't have to sell me, you are preaching to the choir.   It's people like Effete who doesn't understand that.

Well, you're logically inconsistent arguments haven't done much to convince me.

Tell me... are video games that use limited lives inherently better than those that use checkpoints? Think about how you answer this, then reread what I wrote.

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 01:54:27 PM

Quote from: Scooter on August 31, 2023, 01:33:09 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 31, 2023, 01:31:30 PM

So you can call it "snowflake edition" or whatever, but crux is that the games are simply focusing on different playstyles. If you want grittier 5e, you can always houserule it.

Right children's play style with 5th or mature play-style with TSR editions.

This is probably a true statement, but not for the HP-recovery mechanics. I think trying to shelter the readers from "problematic" issues is what has turned 5e into a kid's game. It's been carefully currated to remove uncomfortable topics, much like a Saturday morning cartoon would. Could you add these things in? Sure! Unless you're someone who only runs pre-gen adventures; then you're stuck with whatever milquetoast story they give you.

But if the HP-recovery mechanics are the only thing keeping you from enjoying 5e, just houserule it. What's the problem?

Agreed.  Woke content and restrictions infantilize a game, not HP mechanics.

But if we're talking realism and a challenge, Health Levels from the World of Darkness games are closer to reality and tend to emphasize the fragility of characters more than HP (which rises with experience levels).  WOD doesn't have experience levels, so you instead get points to build your characters with over time.  This results in more customization, but since Health Levels mostly stay the same over time, you always have to play carefully or risk death even if you have a lot of powers.