So let me make the case of "Why S&S now?".

It has become very... painfully even... apparent to me as I've garnered new players recently, and lost players that are "of a certain age" (millennials) need more S&S in their lives.

S&S is about self-reliance, man vs. the world because life is hard and unforgiving. Resilience in the face of death (or worse). Being larger than life, and self-agency. Anything that is a crutch will ruin you in the end, and magic is the king of all crutches. Kill magicians.

These are not all bad things to play by.

While yes, we can point at Appendix N and say clearly there are less S&S authors there. The real question is not the number of authors, but how much of an *impact* they had. They *actually* published Lankhmar, and Conan at TSR. I didn't see a lot of other authors getting that kind of love. Not for want of trying either.

And so I'm clear: I'm *not* saying early D&D was/wasn't heavily S&S influenced. Every single one of us has our own influences we bring to the table on what fantasy is. *I* have read everything on Appendix N - and I don't think anything on that list influenced my games more than say, Raymond Feist's "Magician" series has. And that's not S&S. But I would say that S&S in terms of tropes, *definitely* has much higher influence as a whole on my games in terms of tone.

I don't know of anyone that's older than 50 that looks at Appendix N and can point to their games and look at St. Gary's and presume they would even come close to resembling one another in play. Maybe? I'm just surmising. I think most people haven't even read Appendix N *generally* maybe some of it, but Appendix N was what was readily available to Gygax/Arneson and the rest, today, we're flooded with other influences.

Consider 2014's Appendix E. It looks *nothing* like the garbage we see in 5e today. But S&S is also a rarer breed in 2014. It's more rare today. 

The only real problem with S&S is it tends to be based around a single character or two while D&D tends to be about parties of characters which just fits the High Fantasy model better. I'm curious if anyone has been able to get the right vibe despite multiple PCs.

Quote from: tenbones on January 06, 2025, 03:26:51 PM

Quote from: bat on January 06, 2025, 03:02:30 PMIf you want raw S&S at this point it is in games like Barbarians of Lemuria/Legend, Marauders & Magi of Mu and similar games. As I mentioned in another post, classless games kind of lead to a better sense of becoming a legend than class based games, at least in my experience.

I just got my physical copy of Barbarian of Lemuria... Ohhhh lordy, it's gooood.

The Mythic+? Yes, it is amazing, bigger than the German language one I bought years ago for the cool art. I posted this on the Champions of Lemuria forums which that awesome Warlord of Lemuria posts.

Quote from: tenbones on January 06, 2025, 03:26:51 PM

Quote from: bat on January 06, 2025, 03:02:30 PMIf you want raw S&S at this point it is in games like Barbarians of Lemuria/Legend, Marauders & Magi of Mu and similar games. As I mentioned in another post, classless games kind of lead to a better sense of becoming a legend than class based games, at least in my experience.

I just got my physical copy of Barbarian of Lemuria... Ohhhh lordy, it's gooood.

Great to hear.  I'm hoping it'll hit retail soon so I can get a copy as well.  I just discovered the game a year ago so its good timing for me to get a new version with the much improved European art.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 06, 2025, 03:06:00 PMD&D's niche classes and emphasis on gritty realism grind against this.

You believe that D&D has an emphasis on gritty realism? Can you explain what in D&D gives you this impression?

Quote from: RNGm on January 06, 2025, 07:17:39 PMGreat to hear.  I'm hoping it'll hit retail soon so I can get a copy as well.  I just discovered the game a year ago so its good timing for me to get a new version with the much improved European art.

Awesome news. The Sword and Sorcery Codex by Garnett Elliot is also handy and each game is based off of the same engine and they compliment each other. I am not going to spam, yet if you are looking for more information, Simon Washbourne, Garnett Elliott and Ludospherik all are members of the Champions of Lemuria forums and many great members have contributed a lot of interesting game material over the years.

Quote from: HappyDaze on January 06, 2025, 10:29:35 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 06, 2025, 03:06:00 PMD&D's niche classes and emphasis on gritty realism grind against this.

You believe that D&D has an emphasis on gritty realism? Can you explain what in D&D gives you this impression?

Probably the wrong phrase. I was thinking of elements of early D&D like low hit points at early levels, save or die, system shock, etc.

Quote from: bat on January 06, 2025, 06:41:23 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 06, 2025, 03:26:51 PM

Quote from: bat on January 06, 2025, 03:02:30 PMIf you want raw S&S at this point it is in games like Barbarians of Lemuria/Legend, Marauders & Magi of Mu and similar games. As I mentioned in another post, classless games kind of lead to a better sense of becoming a legend than class based games, at least in my experience.

I just got my physical copy of Barbarian of Lemuria... Ohhhh lordy, it's gooood.

The Mythic+? Yes, it is amazing, bigger than the German language one I bought years ago for the cool art. I posted this on the Champions of Lemuria forums which that awesome Warlord of Lemuria posts.

I didn't know there was a new version of BoL out. Will have to look into that.

Relatedly, anyone know much about Barbaric! 2E? I've had a look at Sword of Cepheus, but I wouldn't mind a more streamlined version.

Technically there are two new versions of BoL recently made, one is Mythic+, by Ludospherik, and Barbarians of Legend, on Drivethru, by Simon Washbourne that is a stripped down, setting free version.

To be honest, modern D&D is mostly incestuously based on things that were were themselves based more or less on older D&D. Old School D&D was based on literature popular at the time, then stuff like video games were made based on the D&D of the time, and now D&D is doing things similarly to those video games. I think S&S is a great basis for old school games, as long as you don't mind not having PC casters being all that prevalent, but that's a marked minority of D&D players overall.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on January 07, 2025, 01:57:41 PMTo be honest, modern D&D is mostly incestuously based on things that were were themselves based more or less on older D&D. Old School D&D was based on literature popular at the time, then stuff like video games were made based on the D&D of the time, and now D&D is doing things similarly to those video games. I think S&S is a great basis for old school games, as long as you don't mind not having PC casters being all that prevalent, but that's a marked minority of D&D players overall.

Spend 50+ years with anything and you'll realize how much whatever you're doing now, has tidbits of whatever came before even if what you're doing now is unrecognizable. Ask any chef.

To me S&S conceits are the best foundation for good low-level gameplay. Even IF your setting is high-magic. Making your PC's travail as much as can be tolerated before the payoff is much more satisfying.

Of course that's for human players that have passed the Gom Jabbar. All else are filthy animals to gorge on what they're fed. Delayed gratification is delicious.

Quote from: tenbones on January 06, 2025, 12:10:39 PMAnd we fight about the differences between gaming and writing and how they're connected *ALL THE TIME*.

Have to admit, I'm a wee-bit jealous of this. Also, I agree with your statements. Question, do you find Bryce Lynch's criteria for what constitutes a good DnD adventure to run at a game table have merit? And in line with the intersection of writing and gaming?

And this is my personal take on the SnS genre; https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/415041/usr-sword-sorcery-deluxe-book-one-usrssd01

Running Wilderlands of High Fantasy, it's heavily S&S with some Sword & Planet elements and only weakly High Fantasy. My recent Forgotten Realms game tended more gritty low-ish fantasy, Game of Thrones meets Thieves' World. Thinking of running Dragonbane Lone Wolf when it comes out, that should be more High Fantasy.

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 06, 2025, 11:28:42 PMRelatedly, anyone know much about Barbaric! 2E? I've had a look at Sword of Cepheus, but I wouldn't mind a more streamlined version.

Is that the difference between them with Barbaric being the lighter of the two?   I was curious about that as I saw from the drivethru previews IIRC that they both use 2d6 as a core mechanic (unless I'm remembering it incorrectly).

Quote from: RNGm on January 07, 2025, 05:02:59 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 06, 2025, 11:28:42 PMRelatedly, anyone know much about Barbaric! 2E? I've had a look at Sword of Cepheus, but I wouldn't mind a more streamlined version.

Is that the difference between them with Barbaric being the lighter of the two?   I was curious about that as I saw from the drivethru previews IIRC that they both use 2d6 as a core mechanic (unless I'm remembering it incorrectly).

According to the marketing blurbs at least. I haven't picked up Barbaric! yet, so I can't confirm.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 06, 2025, 05:34:59 PMThe only real problem with S&S is it tends to be based around a single character or two while D&D tends to be about parties of characters which just fits the High Fantasy model better. I'm curious if anyone has been able to get the right vibe despite multiple PCs.

How to get S&S feel with D&D? D&D isn't the best system for that for starters. It might be one of the worst. If I was going to do gritty S&S, then GURPS and BRP would be good choices. They're systems where death can come awfully quick to the unprepared. For a more heroic or pulpy S&S, then Savage Worlds or if you have players that want a lot of character customization, Hero System.