Regardless of genre and system - how much does history impact your gaming preferences? Or do you just emulate media you enjoy?
Give us some examples of things you're into, based on history, that you introduce into your games? I *expect* SHARK to load us up on this... who else has some?
If you're more into media emulation - what are some of those sacred cows you keep in your gaming pastures? e.g. Katana really are the greatest weapons ever devised by humans and could split a black-hole.
My last campaign was loosely based on a lot of Andean history - though it also had elves, dwarves, dragons, and so forth. One of the key dungeons used the actual site and maps of the archeological site Chavín de Huántar.
In the past, I've used a parallel 1860s Korea as a setting, and an alternate history of vikings in 1300s around what would be New York.
For the future, I've also been thinking about a slightly more historical game set around Cahokia in its heyday around 1150 A.D. or so, with a swashbuckling vibe. I'd also been looking at Pundit's Arrows of Indra.
The only historical setting I play in is 1920s-1940s in CoC, and that's not as influenced by real history as it ought to be, since I'm woefully under informed about the subject. My games there tend to play like modern period pieces that backfil a lot of modern attitudes, as much as I dislike the idea. When I'm done with the current module I'm running future CoC games will take place in modern times, just because it's easier to get into that headspace for my players.
As for my fantasy settings, I mostly take set dressing from history, some things about attitudes and customs, but I don't sweat being super accurate. I play in a fantasy setting with no relation to the real world, so that any differences can be chalked up as "that's just hte way it is here" rather than inaccuracies, while still taking cues from the real world. That way I can use whatever I want without having to be to precious about getting things right. That's one of the things I like about Howard's works. There's definetly inspiration taken from real world history, but the worlds are divergent enough that deviations go from being inaccuracies to just differences.
One place I do try to be fairly historically accurate though, at least in application, is weapons. The variety of types of weapons available, especially to travelers, is important to me, as well as is the fact that in many cases, weapons are basically interchangeable with only minor differences. A lot of the different varieties of sword we think of todays are all just called "sword" in regional dialect, and the difference between a kriegsmesser and a claymore is likely not wider than that between any two particular kriegsmesser in quality of construction. The game I play most in fantasy these days, Knave2e, simply doesn't have granular enough simulationist rules to model the differences between weapons, freeing up the weapons to have any description I or the players like. Someday I do want to build a full weapon tag system, similar to that in Neoclassical Geek Revival 2e, to model those kinds of weapon differences in an OSR game, but today is not that day, and my current players are not those that would enjoy them.
I would say that real history informs and inspires my games but it doesn't frame it.
A lot of my favorite stories are history stories and it very much informs my gaming. Frequently, NPCs are my interpretation of historical personalities. I also use historical events as inspiration for adventures as well as fictional history for my settings.
That being said, I'm not trying to be full on academic and I like the idea of the katana with the perfect cutting edge. When I'm running a fantasy game, it's a blend of real history, folklore, and cool stuff I like. Even the history I use is blended as I love mixing up Greek and Germanic mythology.
In one episode of TMNT (the original one that had nothing to do with the comics for the most part), Leonardo cut a door through 2' of solid steel with his katana in a single motion. As far as I'm concerned, that's how katanas operate because historically they're brittle as hell and would suck against any sort of metal armor, regardless of how sharp they could be.
Even when I ran C&S it was almost purely Charlemagne crossed with Merlin; history as seen through the lens of myth, fiction, and movie tropes.
Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 07, 2025, 01:07:24 PMThe only historical setting I play in is 1920s-1940s in CoC, and that's not as influenced by real history as it ought to be, since I'm woefully under informed about the subject. My games there tend to play like modern period pieces that backfil a lot of modern attitudes, as much as I dislike the idea. When I'm done with the current module I'm running future CoC games will take place in modern times, just because it's easier to get into that headspace for my players.
Pre-CoC 7th ed, the game was well-written in regards to Jazz Era information.
Then they went woke and changed the tone of the game. Specifically, they've expunged what they perceived as racist and sexist.
Which is ironic because it was called the Jazz Age, which came out of a major flourish of African-American culture in that time. Plus women were more liberated than ever, with the passing of the 19th Amendment in 1920 and women's fashions threw away the petticoat and bloomers for slim dresses (i.e. Flapper culture) just to name a few.
Yes, we had the birth of the KKK as a reaction to African-American culture being more accepted. It's unfortunate, but it's a part of our history, regardless if they like it or not.
You have to take the bad with the good.
The latest version of CoC is soo watered-down it's pathetic. It's more of a Hollywood view of the Jazz Age than anything else. It bears no resemblance to the world, historically speaking.
It's ironic if you think about it: the same group of rainbow haired snowflakes that want real world politics and DEI crap in D&D, want to eliminate said real-world stuff from CoC. A game that at it's base historically in the Jazz Age.
When I run CoC, it's about as immersive as you can get. Speakeasies, gangsters, moonshiners, rum-runners, flappers, the Klan, Al Jolsen, Duke Ellington, Golden Age of Hollywood, the birth of radio as a medium for the masses, 23 Skidoo! It's the bee's knees!
FYI: if you need some info on Jazz Age culture, I kinda consider myself an expert. Basically the time post-WWI up to WWII. Wrote a few papers in college when earning my history degree on it.
History is a source of inspiration for my games. There is just so much cool stuff to mine!
Here's one that I've only partially used. During the Cold War, the US wanted the USSR to overextend itself economically in order to help hurry on its collapse. One of these was a uranium refinement program that used very reactive and toxic chemicals to function, except it didn't. They knew that it wouldn't work and would cause a lot of damage to people and cost a lot of money trying to get it to work.
So during the Reagan Administration, the US built the damn thing in Oak Ridge, TN with the express purpose of leaking the plans and specs for the machine to Russian spies so that the USSR would blow billions of rubles, time, engineers, and resources on building something that we knew wouldn't work. It was a long con worthy of masters. And the con worked.
Now, take that bit of Real World espionage and apply it to a game setting. You've got a winner.
I've been recently mining the War of the Roses for ideas to use in a Nobles centric Traveller campaign. It's been a blast!
Now all this history is easy to find. Just look at YouTube. The channels of Scott Manley (mostly rocketry history), The Fat Electrician (mostly military history and popular businesses), and Extra History (uses cartoons to explore in depth historical events). As an example below is the Liberty Doll talking about The Battle of Athens (a significant event in post-WW2 USA that sounds like some GMs game session).
How much I employ history depends a lot on setting and genre.
By default, I'm more into historical flourishes, particularly as relates to technology, than say, having a fictional empire run along the exact same course as a genuine history one.
So, I'll care enough to present pre-gunpowder naval combat accurately (at least before magic drops into the scenario), but not really in having a similar string of emperors, advances and setbacks as the real thing in my pseudo-Roman Empire.
Similarly, I enjoy figuring out an alt-history point of divergence when I am creating my own superhero setting... but that's more in a "anything after this COULD be different" and not that it automatically is (so far the earliest point of divergence I've done involved the Titanic as an inciting incident, but it didn't truly start to diverge until the children aboard the ship and exposed to alien radiation from a ship trapped in the iceberg, came of age in the lead up to WW2).
You wanna talk alt-history:
In a CoC game at Origins a few years ago, we played Horror on the Orient Express with historical figures. I played Nikola Tesla, my best friend played T.E. Lawrence (aka Lawrence of Arabia), and one of the other players was playing Leon Trotsky (how we got together? Don't ask. I don't remember). There were other historical figures played by others, but I don't remember who. They're not important to the story.
Well, we altered history. One of the stops for the Orient Express is Venice, Italy.
Mussolini's Italy.
We were out in Venice and we wanted to get rid of Trotsky. The guy playing him was being a complete jackass. Everywhere he went he was all "workers of the world unite!" and all that crap. Sure, he was playing to type (it was Trotsky), but it got to the point where Trotsky convinced the hotel staff to unionize and go on strike. Which mean the bar was closed in the hotel! Lawrence of Arabia would have none of that shit! You take away his gin and tonic or scotch, you're in for trouble (by this time Lawrence was a notorious alcoholic) .
So we found ourselves a couple of Black Shirts, pointed to Trotsky, and yelled "Communista agitatore!" (which means Communist agitator).
Trotsky ran. They caught up with him. He resisted. They promptly beat the shit outta him until dead and threw his body in the canal.
That was one of the most fun and funniest times I've ever played a game.
So, yeah, instead of Trotsky getting a ice pick shoved in his head in Mexico in 1940, we had Mussolini's goons club him to death in 1927 in Venice.
Ahhh...Venice...
I rarely base things on history or go the media emulation route. More often, it would be better described as I throw some different bits of history and media emulation in a blender, then extrapolate from that. It's what some people would describe as a mashup, though that is not entirely accurate, either.
The closet I come to basing on history is that I'll use a region and time as a kind of analog for general tech level and tone. My current campaign used Western and Central Europe, before Charlemagne, as an idea for the starting point. Then I slathered a lot of myth, fairy tale, vastly alternate history, and the like on top of it. About all that remains of that starting point is some of the base tech, look of the usual weapons and armor, clothes, etc. It would be misleading to describe this campaign as in any way, shape, or form as historical.
I'm always trying to make something imaginary that manages to somehow feel a little real through selective realistic or even historical elements. Most media properties as is don't scratch that itch for me, and even when they do, I find them harder to change. If you tell most players you are doing, for example, Dumas with magic, then what you'll get if you are lucky is the Three Musketeers, 1970's version, with almost no fantasy at all. If not lucky, you'll get the Disney cartoon version.
To date, nothing I have done needs any historical accuracy. I do hope to get into some more real world-ish games, like Delta Green, and I will try to not completely break immersion by introducing laser guns in 1985. But since there's already a suspension of disbelief, I'll do what me and my players will enjoy. I know some folks on this forum are into historical accurate sims (and, hey, I admit to being an SCA member in the past), but that's not what I'm looking for when I play.
Generally speaking, if it's for anything remotely fantasy related, even something like Lamentations of the Flame Princess which often uses real history as its backing, I'll generally ignore it, unless it's something in more modern times, like Call of Cthulhu or anything that's potentially still in living memory. Usually then I'll at least try to make sure I'm not outright contradicting any commonly known history, and will often look for opportunities to add interesting pieces that the players might not be familiar with.
Well, part of the problem is who wrote the history book you're using...
While there are times for taking history seriously, generally I follow actual history with about as much sincerity as I do any RPG's canon setting; I mine it for parts. Generally, I start with a critical mass of actual history which serves as canon, but I will abruptly stop looking things up in the book if I get inspiration to do otherwise, and I reserve the right to go back to looking at a history book if I run out of inspiration.
Quite often, seeing the real history is good at prompting me to do something else. Real events have a tendency to result in boring conclusions, at least by RPG standards.
The game I'm almost done writing is fantasy 1600s pirates and treasure hunting in the Caribbean. I've done a lot of research into the history of the locale and it's as close as I can make it, except where I made intentional changes for the fantasy and different map.
If I am running a game like CoC, accurate and immersive history is very important --and I don't try to "update" things for modern audiences, or create alternate narratives
Greetings!
Ahh, yes. HISTORY!
History certainly does inspire and inform my game world of Thandor in an enormous and essential manner. Everything and everyone is saturated with history. In order to provide lands and space for more races and cultural possibilities, Thandor itself is much larger than our own historical earth. In the process of developing Thandor, my own knowledge of real history--and including such inspirations within the game world--confronted me with a significant problem in regards to the various Humanoid races. The fact is, Human cultures are so diverse, so ambitious, greedy, and absolutely warlike, it made it problematic to include races and cultures of Humanoids. Thus, a much larger world canvas was needed so as to provide "space" for Humanoid cultures to actually grow and prosper in the face of inexorable and determined Human advancement and conquest. From such a foundation, I then added various elements of the Antediluvian period, and then climactic and geological elements from our own real world of some 8,000 to 15,000 BC. Then, of course, the influence of Magic. And the influence and involvement of various Pagan gods and goddesses, powerful Demon Lords, great Titans, and ancient Dragons. Powerful clans of Primordial Giants develop strong cultures and mighty kingdoms over the passage of time.
In the far northern lands, there are the Vandar tribes. The Vandar tribes are a large family of Human tribes based upon the Norse. The Vandar tribes are not alone, however. There are also the Bhaltu, and the Finnlar tribes. The Bhaltu and the Finnlar tribes are inspired by ancient Pagan Baltic and Finnish tribes of the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. In a similar manner, the Vandar tribes are loosely inspired by the Early Iron Age and Norse Bronze Age. Further to the north and east, are the Sibyaaan tribes. The Sibyaan tribes are a family of tribes forming a cultural and racial mixing of European and Asian racial heritage. The Sibyaan tribes vary in their own technological advancement, from the most primitive of Hunter-Gatherer societies, to Early Iron Age cultures.
The Vallorean Empire is an enormous empire and huge cultural and military influence throughout the West and southern range of the continent. The Valloreans are inspired by the ancient Roman Empire. There are the Archaedians, which are inspired by the ancient Dorians, Greeks and Spartans. The Frandar are inspired by the Franks and Gauls, and have developed several strong kingdoms, with the Narvan Kingdom being the most advanced. The Narvan Kingdom is a cultural blend of native Frandar people and Vandar marauders from the far north. There are the vast primordial forests ruled by the Ghebben tribes. The Ghebben are inspired by Early Iron Age and Late Iron Age Germanic tribes. There are the Sarvic tribes, which have settled vast lands further east. The Sarvic tribes are inspired by historical Slavic tribes. The Chang Empire, is based upon the Tang Empire and the Song Empire of ancient China. The Jhangu Horde, of course, are Mongolians. The Sindhu lands, are based upon the cultures and people of the sub-continent of India. The Narmedian Kingdoms rule over vast territories to the far south, and are black skinned Humans. The Darmen Empire are ruled by the Darmen peoples, which are inspired by the ancient Persian Empire. Wandering about the great deserts are the Arban tribes--based loosely upon the Arabic tribes of the Early Middle Ages.
Adding some Elven kingdoms, Dwarven kingdoms, an advanced Orc kingdom, and powerful empire dominated by reptilian humanoids that are unified in worship of a monotheistic reptilian religion, similar to a primitive form of Islam, and things get very interesting! There is always something going on!
I have developed a large selection of Pagan religions, as well as a good handful of monotheistic religions. There are various schisms and offshoot religions and heretic cults, some of which have huge numbers of followers. There are large varieties of religions in most regions of the world, which all compete fiercely, of course. Real religious and theological differences stand out, and form barriers of conflict for many societies and groups. Then, of course, there is plenty of racism, tribalism, and religious bigotry to go around. Various peoples hating other people everywhere, constantly. Elitism, the wealthy, noble classes dominating the working classes, the masses of impoverished poor people, and hordes of crushed slaves, forms the background of many regions and cultures.
The variety and epic scope for adventure, stories, and awesome fun and drama is never-ending. I have regions where Ice-Age Mega Fauna still predominate, while other areas have dinosaurs! Then, again, the influence of magic and mysticism has an enormous impact. I have over a dozen Animal Humanoid races in the game, and sometimes it is like managing a zoo! While these are the foundation pillars, I also generally keep the milieu fairly "Low Magic" periodically spiced with "High Magic" and even some areas where things are rather Gonzo. I like Gonzo, but in small doses. Thus, I keep "Gonzo" areas somewhat isolated and more or less contained, so the Gonzo factor doesn't bleed out into the rest of the milieu.
Yes, my players are all gobsmacked by the huge depth and detail that I have in Thandor. It is not however, due solely to my own artistic craft, but hugely inspired by our own real-world history, across the board. My training and education as a History major is to blame for Thandor being deluged by History! I studied to be a historian and professor, specializing in Ancient & Medieval History, with secondary specialization in Ancient India and China, and Arthurian Literature. So, my players get extra doses of history in every game session! *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2025, 08:55:55 PMGreetings!
Ahh, yes. HISTORY!
History certainly does inspire and inform my game world of Thandor in an enormous and essential manner. Everything and everyone is saturated with history. In order to provide lands and space for more races and cultural possibilities, Thandor itself is much larger than our own historical earth. In the process of developing Thandor, my own knowledge of real history--and including such inspirations within the game world--confronted me with a significant problem in regards to the various Humanoid races. The fact is, Human cultures are so diverse, so ambitious, greedy, and absolutely warlike, it made it problematic to include races and cultures of Humanoids. Thus, a much larger world canvas was needed so as to provide "space" for Humanoid cultures to actually grow and prosper in the face of inexorable and determined Human advancement and conquest. From such a foundation, I then added various elements of the Antediluvian period, and then climactic and geological elements from our own real world of some 8,000 to 15,000 BC. Then, of course, the influence of Magic. And the influence and involvement of various Pagan gods and goddesses, powerful Demon Lords, great Titans, and ancient Dragons. Powerful clans of Primordial Giants develop strong cultures and mighty kingdoms over the passage of time.
In the far northern lands, there are the Vandar tribes. The Vandar tribes are a large family of Human tribes based upon the Norse. The Vandar tribes are not alone, however. There are also the Bhaltu, and the Finnlar tribes. The Bhaltu and the Finnlar tribes are inspired by ancient Pagan Baltic and Finnish tribes of the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. In a similar manner, the Vandar tribes are loosely inspired by the Early Iron Age and Norse Bronze Age. Further to the north and east, are the Sibyaaan tribes. The Sibyaan tribes are a family of tribes forming a cultural and racial mixing of European and Asian racial heritage. The Sibyaan tribes vary in their own technological advancement, from the most primitive of Hunter-Gatherer societies, to Early Iron Age cultures.
The Vallorean Empire is an enormous empire and huge cultural and military influence throughout the West and southern range of the continent. The Valloreans are inspired by the ancient Roman Empire. There are the Archaedians, which are inspired by the ancient Dorians, Greeks and Spartans. The Frandar are inspired by the Franks and Gauls, and have developed several strong kingdoms, with the Narvan Kingdom being the most advanced. The Narvan Kingdom is a cultural blend of native Frandar people and Vandar marauders from the far north. There are the vast primordial forests ruled by the Ghebben tribes. The Ghebben are inspired by Early Iron Age and Late Iron Age Germanic tribes. There are the Sarvic tribes, which have settled vast lands further east. The Sarvic tribes are inspired by historical Slavic tribes. The Chang Empire, is based upon the Tang Empire and the Song Empire of ancient China. The Jhangu Horde, of course, are Mongolians. The Sindhu lands, are based upon the cultures and people of the sub-continent of India. The Narmedian Kingdoms rule over vast territories to the far south, and are black skinned Humans. The Darmen Empire are ruled by the Darmen peoples, which are inspired by the ancient Persian Empire. Wandering about the great deserts are the Arban tribes--based loosely upon the Arabic tribes of the Early Middle Ages.
Adding some Elven kingdoms, Dwarven kingdoms, an advanced Orc kingdom, and powerful empire dominated by reptilian humanoids that are unified in worship of a monotheistic reptilian religion, similar to a primitive form of Islam, and things get very interesting! There is always something going on!
I have developed a large selection of Pagan religions, as well as a good handful of monotheistic religions. There are various schisms and offshoot religions and heretic cults, some of which have huge numbers of followers. There are large varieties of religions in most regions of the world, which all compete fiercely, of course. Real religious and theological differences stand out, and form barriers of conflict for many societies and groups. Then, of course, there is plenty of racism, tribalism, and religious bigotry to go around. Various peoples hating other people everywhere, constantly. Elitism, the wealthy, noble classes dominating the working classes, the masses of impoverished poor people, and hordes of crushed slaves, forms the background of many regions and cultures.
The variety and epic scope for adventure, stories, and awesome fun and drama is never-ending. I have regions where Ice-Age Mega Fauna still predominate, while other areas have dinosaurs! Then, again, the influence of magic and mysticism has an enormous impact. I have over a dozen Animal Humanoid races in the game, and sometimes it is like managing a zoo! While these are the foundation pillars, I also generally keep the milieu fairly "Low Magic" periodically spiced with "High Magic" and even some areas where things are rather Gonzo. I like Gonzo, but in small doses. Thus, I keep "Gonzo" areas somewhat isolated and more or less contained, so the Gonzo factor doesn't bleed out into the rest of the milieu.
Yes, my players are all gobsmacked by the huge depth and detail that I have in Thandor. It is not however, due solely to my own artistic craft, but hugely inspired by our own real-world history, across the board. My training and education as a History major is to blame for Thandor being deluged by History! I studied to be a historian and professor, specializing in Ancient & Medieval History, with secondary specialization in Ancient India and China, and Arthurian Literature. So, my players get extra doses of history in every game session! *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
- Shark is asked about history affecting his game.
- Shark writes a history book.
XD
Got to love it
Quote from: BadApple on February 07, 2025, 09:19:07 PMQuote from: SHARK on February 07, 2025, 08:55:55 PMGreetings!
Ahh, yes. HISTORY!
History certainly does inspire and inform my game world of Thandor in an enormous and essential manner. Everything and everyone is saturated with history. In order to provide lands and space for more races and cultural possibilities, Thandor itself is much larger than our own historical earth. In the process of developing Thandor, my own knowledge of real history--and including such inspirations within the game world--confronted me with a significant problem in regards to the various Humanoid races. The fact is, Human cultures are so diverse, so ambitious, greedy, and absolutely warlike, it made it problematic to include races and cultures of Humanoids. Thus, a much larger world canvas was needed so as to provide "space" for Humanoid cultures to actually grow and prosper in the face of inexorable and determined Human advancement and conquest. From such a foundation, I then added various elements of the Antediluvian period, and then climactic and geological elements from our own real world of some 8,000 to 15,000 BC. Then, of course, the influence of Magic. And the influence and involvement of various Pagan gods and goddesses, powerful Demon Lords, great Titans, and ancient Dragons. Powerful clans of Primordial Giants develop strong cultures and mighty kingdoms over the passage of time.
In the far northern lands, there are the Vandar tribes. The Vandar tribes are a large family of Human tribes based upon the Norse. The Vandar tribes are not alone, however. There are also the Bhaltu, and the Finnlar tribes. The Bhaltu and the Finnlar tribes are inspired by ancient Pagan Baltic and Finnish tribes of the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. In a similar manner, the Vandar tribes are loosely inspired by the Early Iron Age and Norse Bronze Age. Further to the north and east, are the Sibyaaan tribes. The Sibyaan tribes are a family of tribes forming a cultural and racial mixing of European and Asian racial heritage. The Sibyaan tribes vary in their own technological advancement, from the most primitive of Hunter-Gatherer societies, to Early Iron Age cultures.
The Vallorean Empire is an enormous empire and huge cultural and military influence throughout the West and southern range of the continent. The Valloreans are inspired by the ancient Roman Empire. There are the Archaedians, which are inspired by the ancient Dorians, Greeks and Spartans. The Frandar are inspired by the Franks and Gauls, and have developed several strong kingdoms, with the Narvan Kingdom being the most advanced. The Narvan Kingdom is a cultural blend of native Frandar people and Vandar marauders from the far north. There are the vast primordial forests ruled by the Ghebben tribes. The Ghebben are inspired by Early Iron Age and Late Iron Age Germanic tribes. There are the Sarvic tribes, which have settled vast lands further east. The Sarvic tribes are inspired by historical Slavic tribes. The Chang Empire, is based upon the Tang Empire and the Song Empire of ancient China. The Jhangu Horde, of course, are Mongolians. The Sindhu lands, are based upon the cultures and people of the sub-continent of India. The Narmedian Kingdoms rule over vast territories to the far south, and are black skinned Humans. The Darmen Empire are ruled by the Darmen peoples, which are inspired by the ancient Persian Empire. Wandering about the great deserts are the Arban tribes--based loosely upon the Arabic tribes of the Early Middle Ages.
Adding some Elven kingdoms, Dwarven kingdoms, an advanced Orc kingdom, and powerful empire dominated by reptilian humanoids that are unified in worship of a monotheistic reptilian religion, similar to a primitive form of Islam, and things get very interesting! There is always something going on!
I have developed a large selection of Pagan religions, as well as a good handful of monotheistic religions. There are various schisms and offshoot religions and heretic cults, some of which have huge numbers of followers. There are large varieties of religions in most regions of the world, which all compete fiercely, of course. Real religious and theological differences stand out, and form barriers of conflict for many societies and groups. Then, of course, there is plenty of racism, tribalism, and religious bigotry to go around. Various peoples hating other people everywhere, constantly. Elitism, the wealthy, noble classes dominating the working classes, the masses of impoverished poor people, and hordes of crushed slaves, forms the background of many regions and cultures.
The variety and epic scope for adventure, stories, and awesome fun and drama is never-ending. I have regions where Ice-Age Mega Fauna still predominate, while other areas have dinosaurs! Then, again, the influence of magic and mysticism has an enormous impact. I have over a dozen Animal Humanoid races in the game, and sometimes it is like managing a zoo! While these are the foundation pillars, I also generally keep the milieu fairly "Low Magic" periodically spiced with "High Magic" and even some areas where things are rather Gonzo. I like Gonzo, but in small doses. Thus, I keep "Gonzo" areas somewhat isolated and more or less contained, so the Gonzo factor doesn't bleed out into the rest of the milieu.
Yes, my players are all gobsmacked by the huge depth and detail that I have in Thandor. It is not however, due solely to my own artistic craft, but hugely inspired by our own real-world history, across the board. My training and education as a History major is to blame for Thandor being deluged by History! I studied to be a historian and professor, specializing in Ancient & Medieval History, with secondary specialization in Ancient India and China, and Arthurian Literature. So, my players get extra doses of history in every game session! *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
- Shark is asked about history affecting his game.
- Shark writes a history book.
XD
Got to love it
I do. That is why his posts are worth reading. ;)
In my ongoing space opera game, the players are currently headed to the Ptolemy system, where they will visit the Pharos station orbiting the world of Alexandria. Note that these are Federation of Sol (human faction) names applied over a much older, conquered alien-occupied territory. Oh, and there are legends that the world once held a great data-trove too...
Ah, yes. History. What the winners of the war say actually happened.
I love real world cultures. It helps establish a nation without a lot of exposition.
If I say this nation are Samurai, you're good to go. If that nation is Arabs with flying carpets and belly dancers, we're good as well.
You wouldn't be cool if the samurai were all armed with scimitars, and the Arabs all wear kimonos and split toe tabi-socks, right.
A few changes are ok, like having Arabs worship a pantheon of gods, but don't make it Odin, Freya, and Thor. They still have to be their culture.
Avoided like a rabid bear.
Most of what they taught me about history in school I later learned was complete bullshit. Every day we find out that something we thought was "historically-accurate" is just utter dog water. So of course why would I put it in a game I'm running?
100% of published ttrpg setting are FANTASY, not history. That's part of their beauty. They're as close to real history as Monty Python was.
I get that some people get an warm splash from "history" - but WTF is "history" anyway?
(https://c.tenor.com/Ut0vN25ViBQAAAAC/nonsense-get-that-nonsense-out-here.gif)
Quote from: Theory of Games on February 08, 2025, 11:51:45 AMAvoided like a rabid bear.
Most of what they taught me about history in school I later learned was complete bullshit. Every day we find out that something we thought was "historically-accurate" is just utter dog water. So of course why would I put it in a game I'm running?
100% of published ttrpg setting are FANTASY, not history. That's part of their beauty. They're as close to real history as Monty Python was.
I get that some people get an warm splash from "history" - but WTF is "history" anyway?
(https://c.tenor.com/Ut0vN25ViBQAAAAC/nonsense-get-that-nonsense-out-here.gif)
First science, now history... You must find ignorance to be one hell of a drug.
Quote from: tenbones on February 07, 2025, 12:47:37 PMRegardless of genre and system - how much does history impact your gaming preferences? Or do you just emulate media you enjoy?
Give us some examples of things you're into, based on history, that you introduce into your games? I *expect* SHARK to load us up on this... who else has some?
If you're more into media emulation - what are some of those sacred cows you keep in your gaming pastures? e.g. Katana really are the greatest weapons ever devised by humans and could split a black-hole.
For me it can really go either way. I like genre media a lot, but I also like history a lot. Usually a lot of real world history makes its way into my fantasy settings (particularly around stuff like trade). But I've run plenty of wuxia scenarios that are pure genre (down to guys in masks popping out of walls----I've even designed whole dungeons with elaborate systems to explain the guys hiding behind the walls)
Quote from: Theory of Games on February 08, 2025, 11:51:45 AMMost of what they taught me about history in school I later learned was complete bullshit.
Yeah, so? It's still INTERESTING. I was browsing through Plutarch earlier today, actually, because I was looking into something about the Coptic gospels and whatever, doesn't matter. Do I KNOW if Plutarch actually was 100% factual about the Caesars? Did he use literary devices and kind of cut corners to make his work more interesting? I am sure of it. But so what? I'd rather read about a cabal of pissed off senators stabbing Julius in the back than perhaps what could have happened; in fact he wrote a biography about Brutus as well, so you get to see the other side. Anyway, the point here is that stuff is fucking interesting, even if the writer took some liberties to make the narrative more entertaining.
Even though I avoid actual history in my games, to claim that it's somehow worthless because it might not match up to reality 1-to-1 is nonsense. Now, if you're going down the Marxist rabbit hole, go get a history book published before 1950 and compare to today and then you'll realize what you're talking about is propaganda, not history.
I wasn't even thinking about Call of Cthulhu, which I play a lot. What really makes me feel old is thinking of, say, my 1980s James Bond 007 campaign as "historical".
Quote from: blackstone on February 07, 2025, 02:27:43 PMQuote from: Zenoguy3 on February 07, 2025, 01:07:24 PMThe only historical setting I play in is 1920s-1940s in CoC, and that's not as influenced by real history as it ought to be, since I'm woefully under informed about the subject. My games there tend to play like modern period pieces that backfil a lot of modern attitudes, as much as I dislike the idea. When I'm done with the current module I'm running future CoC games will take place in modern times, just because it's easier to get into that headspace for my players.
Pre-CoC 7th ed, the game was well-written in regards to Jazz Era information.
Then they went woke and changed the tone of the game. Specifically, they've expunged what they perceived as racist and sexist.
To Zenoguy3: There's nothing wrong with sticking with modern-day. Lovecraft himself only wrote in what was modern-day to him, for exactly the reason you're talking about - it is easier for people to relate to. That said, I personally do enjoy historical settings, and have done CoC in 1890s, 1920s-1930s, and a short-lived alternate 1950s setting.
To blackstone: I've often featured the racism and sexism of the 1890s and 1920s in my CoC games, including 7th edition, and I've found it to be equally offensive to liberal and conservative people. Typically, liberals tend to want racism/sexism either highlighted or ignored; while conservatives tend to want racism/sexism to happen but only subtly and off-screen. Racism came up a lot in the 7th edition Masks of Nyarlathotep campaign that I played in, for example, because it jumped around a lot across the world.
Quote from: Theory of Games on February 08, 2025, 11:51:45 AMAvoided like a rabid bear.
Most of what they taught me about history in school I later learned was complete bullshit. Every day we find out that something we thought was "historically-accurate" is just utter dog water. So of course why would I put it in a game I'm running?
Few of these "new discoveries" have any more credibility than what we were taught in school back in the day. I'm skeptical because 1) there is a massive incentive for an academic to disprove what is commonly known - afaict it's the only way to become even a bit famous as a historian, and 2) many of these "discoveries" conveniently support the political agenda of those proposing them. I tend to find older accounts more credible as they were closer to the time when things actually happened. In an case, using historical fact in a game is an easy way to provide depth and verisimilitude to the setting.
My Radical High campaign is set in the mid-1980s, and I go to extreme lengths to represent it historically-accurate.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on February 08, 2025, 06:18:27 PMMy Radical High campaign is set in the mid-1980s, and I go to extreme lengths to represent it historically-accurate.
Like this?
The closest think I run to a historical setting is Call of Cthulhu. I try to make it as historical as I can on the surface but since I am not a historian it's closer to verisimilitude than actual historical accuracy. Of course the existence of the Mythos makes it inherently ahistorical on some level. I run COC as open one-shots on Roll20 so I ignore things like historic racial attitudes. I just don't want to deal with that with a bunch of people I don't know.
The game I am running on Sunday is very loosely inspired by the Golden Age of Piracy but it's close to the Pirates of the Caribbean movies than anything historical. There are all sorts of ahistoric elements like Edward Teach running around over a decade before he was even born. The Frida game is based on Greek mythology. The closest it comes to being historical is that it has things like hoplites that existed historically as well as in myth. The Thursday games is Forgotten Realms.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2025, 03:58:06 PMQuote from: Cathode Ray on February 08, 2025, 06:18:27 PMMy Radical High campaign is set in the mid-1980s, and I go to extreme lengths to represent it historically-accurate.
Like this?
This man gets it.
Quote from: tenbones on February 07, 2025, 12:47:37 PMRegardless of genre and system - how much does history impact your gaming preferences? Or do you just emulate media you enjoy?
Well since history in part is a record of how people interacting with each other and since tabletop roleplaying is about players pretending to be characters having adventures which include interacting with the inhabitants of a setting I would say history impacts my preferences quite a bit.
Quote from: tenbones on February 07, 2025, 12:47:37 PMGive us some examples of things you're into, based on history, that you introduce into your games? I *expect* SHARK to load us up on this... who else has some?
While I like worldbuilding for myself, the stuff I take the extra time and effort to share with players will be focused on those things that impact how NPCs behave IN THE PRESENT.
History is filled with interesting details that impact the behavior of people living today. But alongside are various branches and dead ends that went nowhere but records still remain. While important to understand study from a scholary viewpoint. In terms of what we have to do run tabletop roleplaying campaign the only elements of a setting's history are those that impact how the players roleplay their character and/or the behaviors of the NPCs the players will be interacting with.
Now what impacts roleplaying a character is more than just "acting". It can be things like this.
QuoteApart from the Blackmarsh Wars, the Elves explored the far south of the Northern Marches, where the Twinhorn Forest stretches along the foothills of the Westwall mountains. The forest was found to be filled with groves of Galathelas, trees whose small, hard fruit emitted a soft, silvery light at night. Enchanted by its natural beauty, many elves made the forest their home, and in 403 BU the Kingdom of Galadion was founded to protect the region. However, four centuries later tragedy struck when disputes arose between those who wanted to preserve the Galathelas in their natural state and those who sought to shape the trees and their fruit into new forms. Reflecting the ancient divisions between the Leaf and the Fountain, the conflict erupted into civil war around 50 BU. Elves fought against elves behind the glow of the Galathelas until, in 10 AU, the war came to a sudden end. Weakened, Galadion was unable to defend itself from marauding orc tribes crossing the Forsaken Plains, and the realm fell. The forest later became home to packs of wolves, and the Galathelas now emit only a death-like glow.
It quite possible that the players hearing of this will decide they will want to adventure as their character in the Twinhorn Forest. So while the history of Galadion doesn't directly impact the behavior of any NPC in the present, the elves died. It did leave a mark that could be a focus for adventure.
In contrast
QuoteAs the centuries rolled on, ambition and avarice reared their ugly heads, and war returned to Blackmarsh. A mage named Actayl Oathbinder gained control of Castle Blackmarsh and used the town as a base to launch his conquest. The Greywood Elves, the Blackmarsh Rangers, and their allies fought back, and after a long war, they managed to overthrow the tyrant and liberate Castle Blackmarsh. In the aftermath of the war, King Nilal appointed an elven governor to rule Castle Blackmarsh until the humans could be trusted to govern themselves.
This does directly impact the behavior of NPCs in the present in the form of elves not trusting humans, and humans resenting their elven overlords.
Quote from: tenbones on February 07, 2025, 12:47:37 PMIf you're more into media emulation - what are some of those sacred cows you keep in your gaming pastures? e.g. Katana really are the greatest weapons ever devised by humans and could split a black-hole.
I find media emulation to be good for sessions and short term campaigns but invariably come up short if you want a long-duration campaign with depth. Invariably they are far more shallow compared to what can be mined from human history. And guess what? The best are often rooted in the author's love of history (think Conan or Middle Earth).
The role history plays for me is creating atmosphere, believable environments and distinctive and interesting social groups (e.g. guilds, gangs, political factions). I'm prepping a game set in late medieval England. I'm hoping the historical details will help draw players into the game and create a sense of discovery and immersion.
Taverns, blacksmiths, and market squares feature regularly in medievalesque RPG's but I'd like to use more interesting backdrops like watermills, stinking tanneries, fullers, salt mines etc. And when the party are travelling through the countryside I want the action to take place in the midst of the real seasonal labours and conflicts characteristic of medieval England.
So some knowledge of history helps to make the mundane world vivid and believable. And then it's all the more alarming when the players suddenly encounter the Weird (e.g. dark festivals) and the truly Monstrous (e.g.fell beasts and malevolent demons). That's the plan at any rate.
Mined for ideas just like any other imaginary setting.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 09, 2025, 03:58:06 PMQuote from: Cathode Ray on February 08, 2025, 06:18:27 PMMy Radical High campaign is set in the mid-1980s, and I go to extreme lengths to represent it historically-accurate.
Like this?
(over the top 80s photos)
It's like I'm still there.
Quote from: estar on February 10, 2025, 10:49:57 AMI find media emulation to be good for sessions and short term campaigns but invariably come up short if you want a long-duration campaign with depth. Invariably they are far more shallow compared to what can be mined from human history. And guess what? The best are often rooted in the author's love of history (think Conan or Middle Earth).
Pretty much all of the genre emulation games I have are pretty focused on one-shots or games that last maybe a handful of sessions. Several are almost entirely focused one-shot play especially the horror emulation ones.
History is, for me, more or less the foundation. I'm working on a homebrew world and I'm drawing a lot of inspiration from mythological history like the Histories of the Kings of Britain, Arthurian literature, the tales of Charlemagne, etc. It's not one-for-one, but it's the genesis of things, names, and the like.
I love it. LoTFP makes a great case for how setting your game in a historical time and place really highlights the weird things. When magic is everywhere, its not really special. When the magic user has to think about whether he wants to out himself as a dabbler in dark arts, it makes the game more interesting. Personally, I love setting games in ancient times. I am an absolute sucker for the first centuries BCE and CE. I tend to use supernatural elements sparingly, and as signs of conflicting culture. The Romans and Gauls have different gods, and therefore different types of "spells". When the real freaky demon-summoning magic comes out, both of them are horrified. Its all about entertainment, and what makes your table stand out from the usual stuff.
I usually stay away from anything based too firmly in history, or go with some alternate-history setting if it's something set in an Earth-like setting (ex: Twilight:2000 or 2013, Shadowrun).
When I play CoC I try to be as faithful to history as possible. Everyone thinks about "racism!" and "sexism!" in a 1920's setting. However, one of my adventures was set in North Dakota, and part of the plot was based on how immigrants from Germany were treated during WWI (I discovered that the name of ND's capital is Bismarck—something actually tied to the building of the Northern Pacific Railway and... let's say that this is why I love to do research in games).
Sometimes I like to take the underlying structure of some historical event and use it elsewhere. I based a D&D campaign on the Iran-Contra scandal. Not literally, but I was inspired by Tom Clancy, who based his novel "Clear and Present Danger" on the same scandal, even if the plot was different, and I wondered what would happen if the Gods of Goods betrayed their own nature "for the greater good" and things went south. It came out pretty well.
However, as many others, I'm more inspired by fiction for my plots (movies, novels, comics...) I still do deep historical research for a historical setting to portray things as they were in a given moment, but seldom for plot ideas.
Quote from: blackstone on February 07, 2025, 02:27:43 PMPre-CoC 7th ed, the game was well-written in regards to Jazz Era information.
Then they went woke and changed the tone of the game. Specifically, they've expunged what they perceived as racist and sexist.
Which is ironic because it was called the Jazz Age, which came out of a major flourish of African-American culture in that time. Plus women were more liberated than ever, with the passing of the 19th Amendment in 1920 and women's fashions threw away the petticoat and bloomers for slim dresses (i.e. Flapper culture) just to name a few.
Yes, we had the birth of the KKK as a reaction to African-American culture being more accepted. It's unfortunate, but it's a part of our history, regardless if they like it or not.
You have to take the bad with the good.
The latest version of CoC is soo watered-down it's pathetic. It's more of a Hollywood view of the Jazz Age than anything else. It bears no resemblance to the world, historically speaking.
I really appreciate the versatility of CoC 7E as a game system, particularly its ability to incorporate any 1E-6E supplement without prior preparation. Regarding the realities of the 1920s, I always do my own research about how to portray them—so the current wokeness doesn't touch me.
It is a pity that the wonderful French supplement "Au Coeur des Années 20," by Éditions Sans-Detour, was never translated into English. Not only does it offer 500+ pages chock-full of goodies, but at the beginning it states that the 1920s were characterized by racism and "l'esprit colonial." The Keeper must choose how much of both belongs to his adventures, with the book providing all the needed material without forcing any choice.
I never understood why this book wasn't translated into English back when it came out (2008). Today, of course, it would be poison...
Greetings!
I was thinking about this thread and my world of Thandor, and historical influences.
I use the following in developing various communities and nations throughout the World of Thandor. These tables are entirely inspired by history, science, geography, political science, geology, and zoology. I use these tables to generate a culture type, type of economic focus, form of government, technology profile, and environment influence, all with a few dice rolls. Strange or outlandish results can sometimes occur, which I usually ignore, preferring something more grounded and realistic. However, sometimes some weird dice roll or combination of rolls can create a kind of strange society that can fit in quite well. These are, after all, fantastic environments we are dealing with in our fantasy games, so a bit of strangeness can be a good thing. Still, real-world historical inspiration forms the foundation of Thandor.
Culture Type Table
01-10%: Primitive Hunter-Gatherer (Often, Hunter-Gathering cultures also embrace small-scale farming, cultivating orchards and natural groves, exploiting all kinds of available natural resources.)
11-25%: Pastoral (Some Pastoral cultures wander, though most follow a limited Seasonal Circuit embracing a specific Ancestral Homeland environment. Opportunistic, small-scale farming may be practiced, though most are heavily focused on keeping various herds of animals).
26-35%: Nomadic (Small-scale farming may be embraced as opportunity and resources permit, though majority are focused on maintaining herds of animals, and aggressively move their mobile dwellings—typically Yurts or wagons—over a very wide area. Periodically, large-scale wave-like migrations can be embraced by Nomadic tribes and cultures.)
36-75%: Farming (Localized, sedentary communities that practice consistent and pervasive agricultural farming over a set and particular region. Typically features year-round farming, fishing, herding, crafting, as well as trade. While focused on farming and agriculture, varying degrees of herding animals is also typical).
76-90%: Seafaring (Most seafaring cultures embrace some limited farming as well as herding of animals. Crafting and trade are also important priorities. Most are focused on fishing, harvesting coastal resources, and naval and mercantile trade. Lake and River-based cultures are very similar.)
91-00%: Urbanized Civilization (Check Urban Civilization Subtable, below). Urbanized cultures represent a peak social development that combines technology, economics, government, social organization, and philosophy. At the center of urbanization efforts is the development of specialized crafting, superior industries, greater government control and government power, and an enormous increase in wealth generation, resource management, and overall efficiency. A kind of radiating, cascade effect from these developments is a huge development, progress, and expansion in religion, philosophy, art, science, and industry creating a breathtaking environment that fosters new developments, new discoveries, trade, commerce, and the flow and exchange of ideas and knowledge not generally possible without the development and establishment of urban cities.
Urban Civilization Subtable
01-50%: Urban: Mercantile Focus (Trade, Crafting, Financial, Government)
51-75%: Urban: Industrial Focus (Industry, Engineering, Mining, Craftsmanship)
76-85%: Urban: Artistic Focus (Arts, Sculpture, Music, Dancing, Theater)
86-00%: Urban: Decadent Focus (Any or all of the above, as appropriate. Embraced at a very high level of achievement. Over time, the society has become extremely wealthy, prosperous, and gradually, degenerate. The aristocratic elites have become increasingly hedonistic, drug-addicted, and enthralled by the esoteric, the sensual and luxurious, and the bizarre. The society as a whole has become bored and lethargic, enslaved to their own deep degenerate pleasures. Strong progress, and consistent work, has essentially ceased, as the glory days of the society are now long passed, and more like a dream.)
Form of Government Type Table
To determine a society's form of government, first roll on the Form of Government Type Table. Then, proceed based upon the particular dice roll.
01-60%: Basic Form of Government
61-00%: Advanced Form of Government
Basic Form of Government Subtable
01-25%: Chieftain Style Government
26-30%: Council-Led Government
31-45%: Advanced Tribal Federation
46-55%: High Kingship Realm
56-65%: Oligarchy
66-75%: Theocracy
76-90%: City State (Check on City State Subtable, below)
91-00%: Special: Mageocracy, Gerontocracy, Matriarchy, Arthurian Kingdom, or something else. Very unusual. Utopian, or strange government forms.
City State Subtable
01-50%: City-State: Democracy
51-00%: City-State: Tyranny
Advanced Form of Government
01-10%: Democracy (Democracies are often corrupt and not very decisive or effective. However, some can blend aspects of democracy with oligarchies, and become more effective and decisive. Such as the Greek Delian League, or the Germanic Hanseatic League.)
11-25%: Republic
26-65%: Traditional Kingdom (Check on Traditional Kingdom Subtable, below)
66-75%: Traditional Empire (Check on Traditional Empire Subtable, below)
76-80%: Parliamentary Monarchy
81-90%: Absolute Monarchy
91-00%: Special: Mageocracy, Gerontocracy, Matriarchy, Arthurian Kingdom, or something else. Very unusual. Utopian, or strange government forms.
Traditional Kingdom Subtable
01-10%: Bronze-Age Kingdom
11-35%: Iron-Age Kingdom
36-85%: Dark Ages Kingdom
86-00%: Medieval Kingdom
Traditional Empire Subtable
01-10%: Bronze-Age Empire
11-25%: Iron-Age Empire
26-75%: Dark Ages Empire
76-00%: Medieval Empire
Technology and Environment Influences
Technology has an immense influence on a communities' capacity for wealth generation, trade, warfare, and general economic development. These factors, in turn, also influence society, cultural customs, and more.
Technology Focus
01-15%: Stone Age Society
16-20%: Copper Age Society
21-35%: Bronze Age Society
36-50%: Early Iron-Age Society
51-75%: Iron Age Society
76-95%: Advanced High Medieval Society
96-00%: Special (Very High Magic Culture; Steam-Tech Hyper-Industrial; Mystical Elementalism; Strange combinations of technology, magic, economics, and industry).
Environment Influences
Environmental influences are enormous in their impact upon whatever cultures or races that live amidst a particular environment. The local, predominant environment influences a race's food choices, skill development, approach to warfare, social organization, economic development, and more.
01-05%: Desert
06-30%: Forest
31-40%: Plains
41-55%: Steppes
56-65%: Hills
66-70%: Mountains
71-75%: Marshes and Swamps
76-85%: Jungles
86-95%: Arctic
96-00%: Special (Wastelands, Chaos Blasted Lands, Elemental Storm Zones, Temperate Rain Forests, Cold Rain Forests, Cold Marshes, Tropical Paradises, Subterranean Lifestyle, Year-Round Darkness, Year-Round Light, Constant Moon Presence Environment, Twilight Zones, very unusual and strange environmental conditions.)
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Greetings!
In considering and embracing historical inspiration within my World of Thandor, I was also confronted with some very serious implications for world-building, economies, politics, technology, war and conquest.
One of the things that I chewed on was this kind of constant small, parochial view of European history and development, and assumptions about the fantasy world and game. Small armies of a few thousand conscript peasants, led by a few horse-back mounted knights, for example. While this conventional assumption is historically accurate--it actually only applies to a very narrow time band, and is also the result of several key political, social, and economic factors. Western Europe during part of the Dark Ages; decentralized political authority; economic disarray and small-scale implementation of agricultural and economic knowledge.
That conventional assumption bothered me, because in Roman Republican times--the battle of Cannae between Rome and Carthage, led by Hannibal--witnessed the Roman Republic putting into the field an army of 80,000 Roman soldiers--which were all slaughtered by Hannibal in one single day of battle.
That is certainly a savage and momentus defeat, for the day--as many foreign diplomats and thinkers fully expected Rome to collapse, and sue for peace, in Carthage's favour, and thus quickly end the war. However, that is not what happened. Rome was not like other nations and kingdoms of the Mediterranean. Rome yearned, and thirsted for revenge and absolute victory. Roman women cut their hair to make catapult ropes; Roman aristocrats provided vast sums of gold, jewels, and resources for the war effort. The call went out to the various provinces and tribes allied to Rome, to rise to the challenge, and help Rome gain the victory! Within 6 months, Rome had replaced all losses, and fielded yet another equally large and powerful army. Rome did not believe in surrender, ever. Rome refused to kneel to a foreign enemy, and thus, the war continued. Rome fought and struggled, and eventually invaded Africa itself, and conquered the city of Carthage. The great Carthaginian Empire was destroyed. To drive home the point, half of the city of Carthage's population was immediately executed. Men, women, children, were ruthlessly slaughtered in the burning streets of Carthage by Roman legionnairies going street by street, house by house, and killing people. It took over a month for the vast slaughter to be completed. The other half of the surviving population of Carthage--especially the young, beautiful women--were clapped in chains and sent back to Rome as slaves. Hundreds of thousands of Carthaginian women, packed off to serve the glory of Rome.
The Roman Empire was forged in the fires of Carthage. Carthage provided much of the brick, gold, and knowledge that went into the foundation of the Roman Empire. Carthage had Ikea-style model-kit shipping kits. These kits allowed simple workmen to build a first-class naval warship within *days*--from using the Carthaginian model ship kits, which included easy-to-understand blue-prints and assembly instructions. This is how Carthage could completely build a whole fleet of some 300 large naval warships within just a few months, fully crewed and ready for action. Likewise, Carthage had developed industrial-scale factories for producing everything from Fish Paste, to clothing, to finished construction products such as iron bars, wooden beams, and also various kinds of containers, chests, urns, and many food items and ordinary, everyday household goods such as furniture and tools. Carthage had advanced marketing and delivery systems, which took finished products from deep inside Africa, the shores of Spain, to the entire coasts of Eastern Mediterranean, as well as to the far north in Britain, and everywhere in-between. These reasons, and more, are how Carthage could produce an astonishing, vast amount of wealth on a constant basis. Carthage also had developed revolutionary agricultural systems and processes that allowed Carthage to consistently transform and maintain much of North Africa as a vast and luxurious food producer on an epic scale that could easily feed millions of people, and also relatively cheaply. Rome had none of this. However, Rome was sure to help themselves abundantly to this absolute treasure trove of knowledge, resources, and skills--to forge a new, mighty empire.
The truth is, however, Carthage laid the groundwork for many years before Rome was even a child. Rome was a mud-covered village when Carthage was organizing, marketing, and harvesting Africa, parts of Europe, and the entire Mediterranean world for the Carthaginian Empire. It was Carthage that showed Rome what a glorious Empire was really all about.
In the East, China possessed Crossbows in the first century, AD. China essentially went through the European Middle Ages--in the centuries around 100 AD. Armoured cavalry, archers, massed ranks of crossbowmen, massed ranks of pikemen--China did all of this long before European kingdoms during the Middle Ages. The first Emperor of China, the founder of the Chinese Empire, organized a fierce and battle-hardened veteran army of over 1 million soldiers--back in the first century, AD. Over 1 million Chinese workers were put to work on the Great Wall. Again, hundreds of thousands of workers were put to work for *Decades* digging the Great Canal. The Great Canal is a huge and vast waterway that connects a vertical North-South shipping link between horizontal running rivers in China, hundreds and hundreds of miles apart from each other. The Great Canal, by itself--had an immense impact on increasing the Chinese population, as millions of people became more wealthy and productive. Dreams could be built and pursued by many kinds of ordinary people--not just wealthy aristocrats. As a side benefit, again, the Great Canal increased the wealth of the people, but also of the Imperial Government. Taxes, gold, productivity--shot upwards to dizzying, unprecedented heights. Furthermore, all along the canal's route of travel, entire new communities, prosperous towns and cities grew and developed. Vast new opportunities, again, unimaginable beforehand, gradually and then suddenly, became possible.
The Chinese Emperor ordered hundreds of thousands of scrolls and books--yes, BOOKS--to be laboriously copied and recopied, and gathered hundreds of thousands of them into a vast and glorious Imperial Library. Concentrating recipes, knowledge, skills, wisdom, from every corner of the great empire. All of this was concentrated and made available to Chinese scholars. "So shall it be written, so shall it be done!" The Chinese Emperor had no restrictions, no limitations. What he said, what he wanted, was simply done. If it required millions of workers and 20 years of work, so be it. Entire mountains were removed by the emperor's orders. Entire forests swept clean and uprooted, for example, to create the Great Canal.
In contrast, European kings were often told whatever couldn't be done, or they couldn't do whatever, or there was frequently endless arguments, strife, and dawdling excuses. In the Chinese Empire, you would simply be forcibly retired--or executed--and promptly replaced with someone more eager to get the job done. So many examples and instances where the Chinese Emperor simply *willed* something into existence, and whatever was built, organized, or otherwise made into reality.
As can be imagined, there are so many implications and inspirations here for the fantasy game. Far more, and far beyond conventional knowledge and assumptions about what is real, what is true, and what is posssible.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on February 16, 2025, 08:23:40 PMWhile this conventional assumption is historically accurate--it actually only applies to a very narrow time band, and is also the result of several key political, social, and economic factors. Western Europe during part of the Dark Ages; decentralized political authority; economic disarray and small-scale implementation of agricultural and economic knowledge.
That conventional assumption bothered me, because in Roman Republican times--the battle of Cannae between Rome and Carthage, led by Hannibal--witnessed the Roman Republic putting into the field an army of 80,000 Roman soldiers--which were all slaughtered by Hannibal in one single day of battle.
My experience is that beyond a certain population density it ceases to matter.
Why?
When one looks at Northern France during the High Middle Ages or Italy in the time of Augustus we are talking millions of people living in densely populated areas within an economy shifting tons of gold and silver and millions of tons of goods around.
But what makes history, geography, and demographics matter in a tabletop roleplaying campaign are how individuals behave. The inhabitants of the setting whom the players interact and roleplay with as their characters.
So whether we are talking isolated towns scattered across the Russian wilderness of the 11th century, or northern Italy of the Renaissance it all gets funneled through the bandwidth of what players can deal with as part of their character's social circle. And in my experience that pretty the same number regardless if its northern Italy or Russia.
With tabletop roleplaying there is an added factor of the human referee. Whatever has to be done to bring the setting to life has to handled within the time and bandwidth the human referee has for a hobby.
So when it comes to worldbuilding for tabletop RPG campaigns, you have to keep both factors in mind.
For example back when I was younger I studied demographics having been first exposed through a geography minor in college. One effect is this map.
(https://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/beta/Campaign_Map_Ghinor.jpg)
Which I designed with a high population density (and political situation) similar to that of Northern Italy during the Renaissance.
Now with this, which is the same 12.5 miles per hex scale as the previous map, I designed with a lower population density with plenty of wilderness area. It turns out outside of how frequent wilderness adventures were there wasn't much difference when it came to feel of the overall population. Both had way more people that the players as their characters could handle at any one moment so they naturally just focused on those characters that matter to their goals (positively or negatively).
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEghefkkf-uygbyFRGpIOGpci0H70W_DkIOykSiTVIR4GuesaSaUy_tB3QzTN1FzVJh-K9ddOhWxpgpQiErNZLAyAxmg_vP3knn5gTpRXDGkoBVU8Le0L9MjcMUa3u6TT9ejbDoeZC1KoyH4/s1600/csio_regional_sm.jpg)
The same thing with my recent campaigns in my Majestic Fantasy Realms
Greetings!
Yeah, Estar. The time and bandwidth that a DM can handle are very important considerations!
While the adventuring party is caught up with being adventurers, mercenaries, and explorers, indeed, their social scope can be fairly limited. Furthermore, their connection to and interaction with politics, building armies, funding civic projects, mass agriculture, dealing with the environment, tax policies, large-scale recruitment, region-wide plagues, and high-level diplomacy can all be decidedly remote, if existing at all--in my experience, the focus of the game can definitely change gears and open up to a wider focus of concerns and actual connection when Player Characters--as well as important NPC's within the group's social orbit--become elevated or promoted to a formal and official position of leadership.
It is at that point that so much of these larger concerns and issues take on new significance and become very meaningful.
I have typically run several long-term campaigns that have endured years--some even decades--where many of these issues burst upon the scene and suddenly demand answers. It is at such times that I think a DM is really confronted with some need for effort and work. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Greetings!
The Cycles of History
It has been said, that "History is cyclical". There are certainly aspects of that dynamic that can be seen throughout history in various mediums, from political, economic, social cycles, the rise, decline, and fall of empires and civilizations--even the smaller scaled scope of communities growing, reaching an apex, and then declining. This dynamic can also be seen everywhere even within families--so often, a great father works and struggles, to build a great family and business--or a kingdom or empire--only for the grandson to wallow in corruption and degeneracy, and squander everything. All that the forefather laboured his entire life to build, to raise up to greatness, is brought down into corruption, failure, and disaster. This constant, inescapable dynamic can be seen throughout the Bible, as well as within the historical chronicles of the kings of Europe, India, Ancient China, and more.
Historical inspiration is awesome, and always very wondrous and inspiring. Just imagine applying the dynamics of history, with the fantasy elements of magic? The visions that emerge as possibilities can be dizzying to keep up with, or for the sake of the campaign, properly control. A friend of mine cautioned me and exhorted me, that yes, SHARK, applying real-world Historical dynamics in the game--with the in-game magic rules and so on--you would probably find the game world so enormously transformed that the game world would resemble something closer to a crazy, science-fiction environment than anything remotely "Medieval", let alone the Dark Ages or Ancient Times aesthetic that we so often enjoy and cherish. I admitted that yes, unfortunately, that is a strong dynamic that goes along with these elements, and such is something that is very powerful and at the same time, something that we may not initially be fully aware of, until it is too late, so to speak for the campaign.
Thus, with that admonition in mind, for my World of Thandor, I have used some self-imposed restraint, with occasional judicious in-game elements or justifications to form a bulwark against the campaign being *GULPED* down and then transformed into some dystopian science-fiction Gonzo thing that is out of control like a rampaging Tyrannosaurus running wild. So, there is a strong caution there. Tread carefully with mixing too much history, too much logic and reason, with the in-game magic rules and mechanics. The results, when taken to logical conclusions, can be aw dropping in how they change the campaign, and how fundamentally such dynamics drastically change entire societies and civilizations.
Having said that, a campaign is gloriously enriched by applying historical inspiration, good logic and reason, and significant elements from religion, sociology, anthropology, and psychology. Archaeology, as well! Recorded history does seem to hold hands with the "History is Cyclical" philosophy. Many have been taught that we, in the modern age, are across the board more advanced than all of our ancient ancestors, and furthermore, our ancient ancestors were brute primitives, and mired in sad ignorance and superstition! And yet, the Romans had air conditioning, heated floors, advanced concrete mixing, as well as advanced iron crafting and welding skills that were not matched or eclipsed until the 19th Century. The Romans had similar advancements in the field of surgery and medicine, commonly practicing procedures and known truths that were not "Relearned" by modern people until again, well into the 19th Century. Many Roman roads and building still remain to this day, over 2,000 years after they were first built. Rome also had the gigantic Latifunda, enormous agricultural farms that maximized efficiency and productivity. The Roman Empire developed huge factories that crafted formulized goods and tools, especially armour and weapons. Rome easily built up stockpiles of armour and weapons in which to equip vast armies on short notice. That's a far cry different from some lone, village blacksmith crafting gear for the local nobleman. The Roman emperors entertained their guests with year-round strawberry or other berry-flavoured slurpee ice treats for dessert.
The Persian Empire had developed a kind of refrigerated "Ice House"--a Yachtal or something like that. Partially above ground, but mostly subterranean, a domed or peaked building, stacked with stairways and storage ledges, and filled with ice and snow. These buildings effectively served as reliable refrigeration and cold storage with temperatures somewhere in the 30 to 40 degree range. Pretty impressive stuff! Indian metallurgists and craftsmen created amazing quality iron goods, tools, and weapons. In the early centuries AD, during the Chandragupta Empire, the Gupta Empire, and so on, Indian craftsmen developed advanced armour and weapons that covered every kind of detail, style, and variety in warfare--all well before the European Middle Ages. Indian craftsmen even experimented with tiger fur armour, and Rhino Hide armour. The Persian Empire also developed war machines that were combination multi-firing crossbows, which fired a barrage of iron bolts against an enemy. The Persians also developed armoured knights, and used them as powerful shock attack troops in complex cavalry maneuvers on the battlefield that when properly executed by a Persian commander, dominated the battle much like European knights many centuries into the future.
Ancient Carthage, centuries before the Roman Empire, had long mastered the engineering of huge, multi-story buildings. Six, seven, ten stories high. The Carthaginians also developed advanced water systems, irrigation systems for huge farms, greenhouses, multi-season crop development, and sewers and toilet systems with running water for ordinary citizens on a mass scale. Carthage also developed water systems and cisterns that provided water to every community, village, and city--even communities out on the desert frontiers. Carthage had reliable, year-round and convenient water supply systems, even when developing communities in otherwise harsh and brutal climates and environments. Carthaginian sailors and explorers had completely circumnavigated the entire African continent--many years before the Roman Empire. The Carthaginians developed ocean-going naval ships that could reliably travel virtually anywhere, at enormous distances of thousands and thousands of miles.
So, in many ways, our vision of a 12th Century village in Britain is really a very small view, a snapshot in itself of brute, mud-covered primitivism. A snapshot of the downcyle of history, as it were. Thousands of years before that, millions of people in Africa and Europe alike, were living at a far higher standard of living and advanced technology and civilization. Similar dynamics prevailed in 3500 BC, 2500 BC, or 200 AD in India, the Chinese Empire, the Persian empires, and also to some extent even in places as far away as South-East Asia. Simply incredible advancements in engineering, technology, agriculture, and architecture.
The "Barbarian" Mongols developed the Yam System--where special fortified outposts and way stations placed every 25 miles ensured fresh, fast horses for a professional courier and mail system that connected the vast Mongolian Empire of thousands of miles with communication that routinely posted horse-travel times of 70 miles and more per day--some estimates are at 300 miles in a day. Point being, the Mongols instituted a reliable communication system that could cover anywhere throughout the vast Mongolian Empire in just a few weeks travel time, at the most. An interesting insight into engineering and warfare--the Muslim "Assasins Brotherhood" that had reigned with terror throughout the Mislim world for centiuries, and gave the Crusading Christian armies frequent problems--made the mistake of assassinating a Mongol general. Rumour reached the Great Khan, thousands of miles away, concerning the Muslim plot to assassinate also, the Great Khan. Word was sent out, and huge Mongolian armies poured into the Middle East, striking Persia, Arabia, Turkey, and Syria. In less than a year, the Mongolian General Halugu had excavated bridges, removed mountains, built roads and ramps and siege camps, as well as fortified encampments throughout the land. Then, Halugu proceeded to hunt down every Muslim Assassin stronghold, and annihilated them. Men, women, children, anyone that was family, friends with, or in any way associated with the infamous Muslim Assassins, were hunted down and exterminated. The Muslim Assassins were utterly crushed. Logistically, another amazing fact--the Mongolian Empire supervised, coordinated, and maintained vast armies, all fighting thousands of miles apart from each other, fighting campaigns in Europe, the Middle East, and in China, all at the same time.
Just imagine what applying magical principles and mechanics in the game with ideas and developments like these! The potential for all kinds of adventures and drama presents itself in an unending river of inspiration and possibility!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK