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We now have Ptolus, which is over 600 pages, if I'm not mistaken, and retails at about $120US.

My question: How much bigger can games or game sourcebooks like this possibly get? We already saw the "world's largest dungeon", and the "world's largest city" is coming up I believe.

More importantly: how much bigger do they have to get before people start agreeing with me that the gaming companies are blindly marketing to the would-be "collectors" out there, and that this is doing more harm than good to the hobby?

RPGPundit

I haven't read the book, because I'm not about to spend $120 on a corebook (it IS a corebook, right?). Does it include all the splats that otherwise would've been released separately? Is it delivered to my doorstep by a smiling Thai hooker with a gift certificate?

Because it better be.

[edit]: It's a sourcebook? I like lots and lots of flavor information as much as the next obsessive GM, but this is, as they say, absoludicrous. Count me out.

I bought a $120 textbook once. I almost bought a $250 one, but I couldn't quite bring myself to spend the money. I just got it out of the library.

I'm sure somebody bought it.

Quote from: GeekkakeI haven't read the book, because I'm not about to spend $120 on a corebook (it IS a corebook, right?).

Nope, not a corebook. Its a sourcebook for D20 about a really big city.

QuoteIs it delivered to my doorstep by a smiling Thai hooker with a gift certificate?

That's pretty well where it would have to be at for me to buy it. And at that point, $120 would be a steal. :D

RPGPundit

I think Ptolus and world's largest dungeon (or whatever the name was) are as big as they're going to get.  That size is already rare and I haven't seen a major company do it.  

I think Ptolus was a dream product for Monte Cook.  He started Malhavoc mainly to put out his ideal product, aware that it might be merely a niche product.  I don't think even he thinks that this is the wave of the future.

Is it worth it? Dunno, don't have it.  But it sounds like it gives you everything you need for a year long campaign - no extra splat books, area books, magic books or anything.  If you can get 40-50 sessions from one product, then it's worth it.

Is this just a function of marketing?

If Monte had released the same material as four $20 sourcebooks and four $10 adventures, would you say that it was only stupid collectors who bought them?  According to the 1999 WotC survey, GMs will have an average total expenditure of $2000 on RPG books.  

Then again, there are many hobbies which are much more expensive than that.

I don't know, but I'm still waiting for my 6000-page compendium of the entirety of the Third Imperium, UltraTraveller.

Not that I know a whit about the game industry, but I think interest in high-end collectible stuff can be supported indefinitely in small print runs, so long as there are cheaper ways of getting into the hobby.  You need the entry-level products to create the hardcore purchasers of the collectible stuff.  I feel the comics comparison is relevant here too.  You can sell expensive "Absolute Editions" and whatnot so long as you are actively courting people with cheaper newbie stuff.  Of course, the amount to which either industry is actually courting the newbies is subject to debate.

I really do think JK's got a point. I'm pretty impartial here, as I don't play D&D, and I've got to say that Ptolus sounds like value for money. If you've got the money.

(That's about 160 of our antipodean dollars.)

Quote from: RPGPunditMore importantly: how much bigger do they have to get before people start agreeing with me that the gaming companies are blindly marketing to the would-be "collectors" out there, and that this is doing more harm than good to the hobby?

Oh, I think you'd have to have an awful big book before you'll see people rushing to agree with you, Pundit.  I'm thinking "The Complete Harry Potter Omnibus" big, at a minimum.

They may eventually conclude the same things you already believe on the subject, but agree with you?  Would you even want that? :)

If a rulebook gets too big, then it will collapse in on itself and form a black hole.  That's the theoretical maximum.  

Ptolus already has a couple more books on a CD in the back.

I am playing in a game of Ptolus, it is an excellent book in my opinion. I think it's damn near six hundred pages long, and it comes with a DVD with PDF's of a nother six hundred pages. There is a lot of official and unofficial Web support for it.
 
It's not your standard detail in a setting. It has the menus for a lot of the resturaunts and bars you would frequent, price lists at a clothiers shop. Printout wanted posters as possible plot hooks. Players have a lot of freedom to pick their path. If they want to pursue the criminals, they can, and it has the adventure module for it. If the want to delve underneath the city, they can and it has the modules for it. If they want to work with one of the cities leagues and guilds, they can, and it has the adventure modules for it. If you want to climb the Spire in the center, yeah, it's got that! Even if they want to leave Ptolus, there are details on the small nation that Ptoslus inhabits with neiboring cities and societies abound, and there's adventure modules for that too!
 
Ptolus is a massive book, with in character printouts for everything. A ton of maps and even more on the DVD and the website.
 
I think it's worth $120, however...not everyone has $120 to spend on a DnD book.
 

Quote from: NicephorusI think Ptolus and world's largest dungeon (or whatever the name was) are as big as they're going to get.  That size is already rare and I haven't seen a major company do it.  

Yea but only five years ago, it would have been pretty much unthinkeable.

No, i think in a few more years, mark my words, we'll be seeing 12-volume encyclopedic hardcovers with book-spine collages that come with a slip case, full colour glossy illustrations and maps, retailing for $250US or more.

Its "collector creep".  More and more of the hobby is being turned toward allowing rabid fanboy collectors cream their pants at spending absurd sums of money for games that are more pretty than useful. And of course, each time, the next "collectible" has to be more special than the last.

RPGPundit

Quote from: GeekkakeI haven't read the book, because I'm not about to spend $120 on a corebook (it IS a corebook, right?). Does it include all the splats that otherwise would've been released separately? Is it delivered to my doorstep by a smiling Thai hooker with a gift certificate?

Because it better be.

[edit]: It's a sourcebook? I like lots and lots of flavor information as much as the next obsessive GM, but this is, as they say, absoludicrous. Count me out.

Read my review of it on this very site.

$120 for 600-pages sounds to me like a reasonable deal if you take into account the usual RPG caveat ("It's worth it if you play it, otherwise you'd be better off spending it on hookers, blow and Haribo").

The thing that astonishes me though is that people seem to actually get $120 worth of use out of these things.  I mean over at RPGMP3 they've been playing The World's Largest Dungeon for what seems like 15 years and they're not bored of the game or of their characters.

At the moment I think I'm playing in the finest game I've ever played in (and by the high standards of my experiences with my current group that's saying something) but in a year's time or even 6 months time I can't imagine myself not having itchy feet and wanting to try something different.

I don't think these books and boxes are for the collector's market.  I think a lot of corebooks and supplements are but proper adventures are meant to be played, I just marvel at people's attention spans and how uncurious they are about other campaigns they COULD be playing.

Quote from: RPGPunditIts "collector creep".  More and more of the hobby is being turned toward allowing rabid fanboy collectors cream their pants at spending absurd sums of money for games that are more pretty than useful. And of course, each time, the next "collectible" has to be more special than the last.

I understand your concern, but I've not seen any reviewer claim Ptolus or World's Largest Dungeon were unplayable coffee table pieces.

Quote from: RPGPunditYea but only five years ago, it would have been pretty much unthinkeable.

No, i think in a few more years, mark my words, we'll be seeing 12-volume encyclopedic hardcovers with book-spine collages that come with a slip case, full colour glossy illustrations and maps, retailing for $250US or more.

Its "collector creep".  More and more of the hobby is being turned toward allowing rabid fanboy collectors cream their pants at spending absurd sums of money for games that are more pretty than useful. And of course, each time, the next "collectible" has to be more special than the last.

RPGPundit

Maybe, maybe, maybe, but I still think you're aiming at the wrong target. The real problem is that the average game book right now is hovering in the $30-40 range, with $40-50 becoming more common. Big, deluxe products like Ptolus aren't the signs of the Apocalypse. That came back when the first $40 game book was released and there was a general show of support from a fan base that was willing to pay that on a regular basis. I'm not prepared to spend $120 very often on any kind of book. But I've gotten more and more used to $40 ones, and don't blink when I see the price. I'm not buying as many of them, but it hasn't slowed down others. The real battle to keep prices down is going on at the $40 level, but the front lines are being steadily pushed back.

Quote from: droogI really do think JK's got a point. I'm pretty impartial here, as I don't play D&D, and I've got to say that Ptolus sounds like value for money. If you've got the money.

Oh really?

RIFTS Ultimate edition: $34/376 pages = 9cents per page

Qin: The Warring States: $38/272 pages = 12 cents per page

GURPS basic set (2 core books): $75/576 pages = 13 cents per page

Shadowrun 4e: $35/352 pages = 9 cents per page

PTOLUS: $120/674 pages += 18 cents per page

So no, its not even "value for the money". And note that I think that most of those books above are pricier than they should be, as well (and more overproduced).

RPGPundit

Quote from: jrientsI understand your concern, but I've not seen any reviewer claim Ptolus or World's Largest Dungeon were unplayable coffee table pieces.

Unplayable coffee table books? No, that special award goes to Nobilis.

But that their emphasis is more on prettiness than on playability, more on collectability than practicality? Definitely.

RPGPundit

Pundit, you know that a page is not a fixed metric of game content.  Also, are you including the stuff in the envelope and on the disc in your pagecount of Ptolus?  I think you're near Rifts' 9 cents at that point.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonMaybe, maybe, maybe, but I still think you're aiming at the wrong target. The real problem is that the average game book right now is hovering in the $30-40 range, with $40-50 becoming more common. Big, deluxe products like Ptolus aren't the signs of the Apocalypse. That came back when the first $40 game book was released and there was a general show of support from a fan base that was willing to pay that on a regular basis. I'm not prepared to spend $120 very often on any kind of book. But I've gotten more and more used to $40 ones, and don't blink when I see the price. I'm not buying as many of them, but it hasn't slowed down others. The real battle to keep prices down is going on at the $40 level, but the front lines are being steadily pushed back.

Yes, I certainly agree with you. Its all part of the same phenomenon, the same illness inside the hobby.

The lack of $20 core rulebooks is what will ultimately kill us.

RPGPundit

Yeah, I'm with ColonelHardisson.  I wouldn't be the least worried about the high end of the spectrum if the lower end looked healthier.

Quote from: Mr. Analytical$120 for 600-pages sounds to me like a reasonable deal if you take into account the usual RPG caveat ("It's worth it if you play it, otherwise you'd be better off spending it on hookers, blow and Haribo").

It's about 672 pages (as I say in my review which nobody wants to read ;) ), but on top of that, there are hundreds of pages of material on the CD included with the book. So it's an even better deal. Plus, you make a great point - if the book is used, then it's not a bad price to pay. It has a lot more material than the equivalent amount spent on normal-sized adventures. A lot more, as a matter of fact. $120 isn't going to buy you a lot of other gam books, when it comes right down to it. And that's because, as I said above, the real problem is the increasing number of $40 books at the low end of the spectrum.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe thing that astonishes me though is that people seem to actually get $120 worth of use out of these things.  I mean over at RPGMP3 they've been playing The World's Largest Dungeon for what seems like 15 years and they're not bored of the game or of their characters.

I know that at EN World there is a huge WLD in actual play thread that gets bumped up ever so often. Truth to tell, I didn't think WLD was worth the money. Ptolus is.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalAt the moment I think I'm playing in the finest game I've ever played in (and by the high standards of my experiences with my current group that's saying something) but in a year's time or even 6 months time I can't imagine myself not having itchy feet and wanting to try something different.

That could be a problem. That's why something priced like WLD or Ptolus should be more versatile and wide-ranging, to ensure literally years of usefulness. I don't think WLD is diverse enough for that, but Ptolus is.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI don't think these books and boxes are for the collector's market.  I think a lot of corebooks and supplements are but proper adventures are meant to be played, I just marvel at people's attention spans and how uncurious they are about other campaigns they COULD be playing.

Again, that's a point, but I don't think it's them being incurious. I think it's more that, for them, the adventure is diverse enough in scope to hold their attention.

Anywya, the thing about Ptolus and WLD is that it only takes a few duds to scare off publishers from making more of them. Sure, now that Monte has put out Ptolus, there will likely be imitators, but damn, Ptolus really places the bar high. Any imitators had better be of at least of a quality as high as Ptolus to make money.

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, I certainly agree with you. Its all part of the same phenomenon, the same illness inside the hobby.

The lack of $20 core rulebooks is what will ultimately kill us.

RPGPundit

Yes, precisely. I think your energies would be better spent ranting for more $20 books rather than ranting against the $100+ ones.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe lack of $20 core rulebooks is what will ultimately kill us.

No dude – the kids will just download it free off the internet.

Quote from: RPGPunditUnplayable coffee table books? No, that special award goes to Nobilis.

But that their emphasis is more on prettiness than on playability, more on collectability than practicality? Definitely.

RPGPundit

I have to differ with you here, as far as Ptolus is concerned. I have the book, and while prettiness was definitely a design goal, that prettiness was equaled in importance by practicality. Matter of fact, look at Monte's design journals for the book on his site. He emphasizes that practicality was of paramount importance, and I don't doubt it. It's his Malhavoc swansong, and he wanted to go out at the top of his game.

WLD...well, I didn't think it was all that pretty, and not terribly well-organized.

Quote from: jrientsPundit, you know that a page is not a fixed metric of game content.  Also, are you including the stuff in the envelope and on the disc in your pagecount of Ptolus?  I think you're near Rifts' 9 cents at that point.

I can only guess that you're right. There are 300+ pages of extra material on that CD. Plus, for someone like me who pre-ordered ($10 a month is nicer than $120 all at once), there was the Delver's Guide site that can be accessed for even more material. Last I checked, it was probably 70+ pages of material if put into Word form.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe lack of $20 core rulebooks is what will ultimately kill us.

This is the bit where I laugh hysterically.

I've got such a book, about a page away from drafted, that'll run about $20-25.

And, yes, it is meant to be pretty beginner-friendly.

I agree that $20 is a better price point for corebooks because all of these $50 deluxe hardback things and huge boxed sets represent an industry trying harder and harder to wring more and more money out of its existing fanbase while simultaneously not attempting in any real way to make the hobby accessible to newbies.

...and we know how well that business model worked for the comics industry.


I agree that a city seems far more interesting and flexible than a dungeon and therefore potentially more likely to be worth the money.  I mean, was WLD flexible at all?  all the actual play accounts I've seen seem to start the same way with the giant corpse and people being locked inside.

Having said that, I think it's foolish to spend that kind of money on a module anyway.  People who don't write their own stuff are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

I have no problem with $120 supplements, and Ptolus is sitting on the shelf down at the FLGS--causing no shortage at all, as far as I can tell, of the availability of Palladium $20 supplements, Hero $20 supplements, or Green Ronin $20 supplements, which seem to be in good supply in their inventory.

I suspect Ptolus is what one buys after one already has all the cheap, entry-level core books needed to play any game desired... a point which I passed more than two decades ago.

It is the availability of items like Ptolus which, I think, *sustains* the hobby--if all I could get was starter sets, I wouldn't be contributing financially in any way to the RPG/hobby market.

Not so much a collector's item, as a connisseur's item--something deep enough, and rich enough, and produced by a recognized expert in the field playing at the top of his game. I instead choose to celebrate Mr. Cook for choosing to improve the richness of the RPG ecosystem with his offering.

I might choose to wonder why the broadest-based (and often heralded in certain near quarters) WoTC chooses to price-target $29.99 or higher for its brand name supplemental material--now that's not entry-level friendly at all, especially for those whose beginner brand-awareness extends to "D&D" and no further.

Denigrate me as a collector, if you will, I care not--I am quite sure that my purchasing of supplements contributes to their continued availability and lower price point in general for those who "only play."

There's one small way that making stuff more expensive might be benficial. Of course the following could be raving, but hear me out.

By making stuff more expensive (and more time-consuming to digest, I might add), you make it more difficult for someone to play anything but your stuff. If several players share an interest in your stuff, you now have a focused community of people for whom game X is the centerpiece of their hobby. The focus in turn increases the chance that the expensive stuff will actually be used, which increases its value/price ratio while maintaining the effect of crowding out competitors for the gamers' money and attention.

In short high-buy-in can act as a signaling tool for coalescing networks of interest.

Quote from: Elliot WilenBy making stuff more expensive (and more time-consuming to digest, I might add), you make it more difficult for someone to play anything but your stuff.

If anyone fit that model, it would probably be warhammer.

:pundit: ,

The true value of any RPG book lies not in what went into it, but what you can get out of it. Ptolus has a lot in it, and because of that you can get a lot more out of it. And it's expandable. You can add to it.

Essentially what you get are the highlights. There's room to add more. Ptolus was written in the style of a tourist guide. A quick introduction to a location with the important sites and people detailed. As the PCs wander about and get to know the place better, they'll learn about lesser known sites and lesser known people.

And things are tied together. Who knows who, who hates who, who has the goods on who. Government officials, crime bosses, and religious figures all working together to keep the whole thing from falling apart. While, at the same time, seeking such advantage as they can, the better to increase their fortunes and solidify their positions. It's what The City State of the Invincible Overlord could've been had Judges Guild put any effort into deciding how it worked. In short, Ptolus make sense.

Ptolus also rewards improvisation. You don't want to run Banewarrens as is, you can incorporate the elements into your Ptolus game. As a matter of fact, you can use Ptolus without using a single formal campaign or adventure. Daily life can, in the hands of a good GM, provide enough adventure to keep most players happy. An impromptu adventure can start at an intersection, in a barber shop, or while giving directions to a vrock just arrived in town.

The city and all it's attendant parts is large enough to be what you need it to be.

Last, but not least, it impressed the fuck out of my shrink.

I think this whole argument comes down to supply and demand. The good, popular and sellable RPG books take time effort and money to put out. The RPG industry has evolved much like the Videogame industry. A few paralells:

I remember Nintendo Games when they came out were 25-35 bucks.
RPG's were $25-$35 back in the eighties too if I remember correctly. $10-$20 for paperback supplements.
 
Prices on video games moved up, as they became a profitable but Niche Market and the market expected higher production values:
Super Nintendo games cost $60-$70 depeneding on the Cart. The occasional game cost over $100 (Final Fanstay 3 was $120 when it came out). Top artists and script writers begin writing videogmes at this time. There is the occassional game that comes out with higher production costs where the MSRP is higher but it has fan service extras (Ys with it's cloth maps, big instruction book and charcter artwork)
 
RPG prices have have moved up (a little, considering general inflation) as it is considered a profitable but niche market, the market expects higher production values:
 
RPG's now range on average from $35-$50 for a game book and $25-35 on average. The occasional book costs more than $100 dollars. Top selling books are now Full color Hardcovers, with top artists providing artwork for them. There is also the occosional special edition or very high production cost product that MSRPs higher but has fan service extras (WW letherette 3rd editions, Ptolus, DnD 3.5 collectors editions).
 
Video Game prices finally came down again when they hit Mainsteam popularity (which RPG's haven't done) and the medium price came down (Which RPG's have just started with PDF books).
 
I don't think any of these prices are outragous, or "killing gaming". It cost $105 to buy-in to DnD 3.5. It is the most successful RPG on the planet. The fact that they can even OFFER $120 books, and that people are buying it is a sign that out hobby is healthy.
 
There's still the $10-$15 budget rpg's on the Market, there's still the free rpg's on the internet, you can buy used copies of the game we payed $25 back in the day for $8-$15. With inflation, $35-$50 dollars is not that much to spend on an RPG.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonYes, precisely. I think your energies would be better spent ranting for more $20 books rather than ranting against the $100+ ones.

The thing is that they're two symptoms of the same disease.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThis is the bit where I laugh hysterically.

I've got such a book, about a page away from drafted, that'll run about $20-25.

And, yes, it is meant to be pretty beginner-friendly.

That's a good thing, and more power to you! But seriously, your small-press endeavour is not the issue. The issue is Wizards, and Mongoose, and Green Ronin, etc etc.

The fact that you're making an "indie" game for $20 is fine and good, but that's not the kind of "core books" I was talking about.

RPGPundit

Quote from: NetwyrmI suspect Ptolus is what one buys after one already has all the cheap, entry-level core books needed to play any game desired... a point which I passed more than two decades ago.  

And there's the problem right there: the whole fucking industry is geared to satisfying the wants of people who bought all the core books 20 years ago.  Its a road to perdition.

QuoteI might choose to wonder why the broadest-based (and often heralded in certain near quarters) WoTC chooses to price-target $29.99 or higher for its brand name supplemental material--now that's not entry-level friendly at all, especially for those whose beginner brand-awareness extends to "D&D" and no further.

I'm in absolute agreement with this.  I think its one of the biggest criticisms I have of Wizards. I know that they're trying to make some gestures to appeal to the beginner market, and they're on the right track, but what they've done so far goes nowhere near far enough.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOh really?

PTOLUS: $120/674 pages += 18 cents per page

So no, its not even "value for the money". And note that I think that most of those books above are pricier than they should be, as well (and more overproduced).

RPGPundit

In Ptolus' defense, that $120 also includes the CD with much more additional material, so it isn't an apples to apples comparison.

If you count .pdf content as the same as print (not that I do), it comes in closer to $.10 to $.12 per page of text.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe thing is that they're two symptoms of the same disease.

RPGPundit

Maybe so, but one is of more importance. As someone mentioned above, there has to be something out there for people who've bought all the introductory material. But if there's no introductory material, eventually there'll be no one to buy anything.

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's a good thing, and more power to you! But seriously, your small-press endeavour is not the issue. The issue is Wizards, and Mongoose, and Green Ronin, etc etc.

The fact that you're making an "indie" game for $20 is fine and good, but that's not the kind of "core books" I was talking about.

RPGPundit

If what passes for the majors in this hobby aren't going to touch the concept, it's up to the little guy to show them what's up.  Hopefully trends on the ground will wake someone in Brand Management up to what has to be done.

If the market's there, someone will fill it.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd there's the problem right there: the whole fucking industry is geared to satisfying the wants of people who bought all the core books 20 years ago.  Its a road to perdition.

I don't disagree with this notion, but to do away with products for people who have all the core stuff already isn't going to help with the situation. You might argue that companies spend too many resources on the upper-end of the customer spectrum, but as I've said before, it's the mid-level stuff that should be priced at introductory prices that's the real cause for concern. Not every book needs to be a hardback, or have shiny pages, or beautiful artwork. But that's what buyers expect now, even for the low-end products. The basic set for D&D with the paperback PHB is a step in the right direction. I'd hope to see more stuff along those lines.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd there's the problem right there: the whole fucking industry is geared to satisfying the wants of people who bought all the core books 20 years ago.

I don't think this is true at all.
 
I think there are plenty of Mainstream RPG's out there that are cheap enough to play. I think tht Asking $35 for a complete core isn't asking too much.
 
This isn't 1985 anymore. A dollar isn't worth as much. What used to cost $75 for three AD&D core books is now $105. That's a little less than a 30% increase in price, when inflation has hit at damn near 80-100% on other items. I remeber when a top of the line TV was $6,000.
 
Now they're $12,000 or more.
 
Things are much better than they were.
Just given the fact people can even try to make these $120 monsrtosities for the "hardcore" crowd says the industry is healthy and growing. We have such a variety of options that we never had before. From $20 indy .pdf to $35 all in one Corebooks to $25 WotC Starter sets with miniatures, a character sheet and Dice!
 
Instead of "Oh woe is me, the end is near!" you should be saying "Wow, this is a great time to be a gamer! An all inclusive 600+ page setting book that's 90% useful information, you never would have seen this 10 years ago!"

Here in Malaysia with the exchange rate the way how it is, you would have to pay about 120 RM for a $40 book, so to buy Ptolus which cost $120  you could end up paying 400RM dollars for the whole thing.

I don't know the exact demographic of the gamers here, but I sure as hell, think you need money for this hobby, esp if you collect/play certain games.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: mythusmageLast, but not least, it impressed the fuck out of my shrink.

Come on, you've got to explain this bit

I'm not a fan of the giant omnibus approach to gaming texts. It's hard for me to justify spending that much money all at once on just one book. I hope that this isn't the direction in which the industry is heading.

Almost as bad are the tiny little game books that cost close to $30.00 each. RuneQuest, I'm looking at you.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonCome on, you've got to explain this bit

I have a shrink, he was impressed by the look of the Ptolus book.

Quote from: KrakaJakI am playing in a game of Ptolus, it is an excellent book in my opinion. I think it's damn near six hundred pages long, and it comes with a DVD with PDF's of a nother six hundred pages. There is a lot of official and unofficial Web support for it.
 
It's not your standard detail in a setting. It has the menus for a lot of the resturaunts and bars you would frequent, price lists at a clothiers shop. Printout wanted posters as possible plot hooks. Players have a lot of freedom to pick their path. If they want to pursue the criminals, they can, and it has the adventure module for it. If the want to delve underneath the city, they can and it has the modules for it. If they want to work with one of the cities leagues and guilds, they can, and it has the adventure modules for it. If you want to climb the Spire in the center, yeah, it's got that! Even if they want to leave Ptolus, there are details on the small nation that Ptoslus inhabits with neiboring cities and societies abound, and there's adventure modules for that too!
 
Ptolus is a massive book, with in character printouts for everything. A ton of maps and even more on the DVD and the website.

That's unspeakably awesome.

Quote from: hgjsThat's unspeakably awesome.

And waaaay too much! Personally I could never read that much crap on any one thing. Monte should be commended for the hard work and dedication he put into Ptolus but damn there is such a thing as TMI!



p.s. Then again, maybe it's just too much at once that's turning me off of it.

Quote from: Mystery ManAnd waaaay too much! Personally I could never read that much crap on any one thing. Monte should be commended for the hard work and dedication he put into Ptolus but damn there is such a thing as TMI!



p.s. Then again, maybe it's just too much at once that's turning me off of it.

Could be. It can be read in sections. Check out my review (but it may be too long for your taste as well!).

Quote from: ColonelHardissonCould be. It can be read in sections. Check out my review (but it may be too long for your taste as well!).

Keep it in short sentences, use small words please. :D

Quote from: Mystery ManKeep it in short sentences, use small words please. :D

It's been on this site for a few days now.
it's wordy.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonIt's been on this site for a few days now.
it's wordy.

I just read it, that's a well written review Col. So the entirety of Ptolus is on the cd and is searchable? Are they searchable pdf's or is it html? Still not going to spend 120 bucks on it but I'm curious. :)

My wife is getting me it for Christmas.  It's the only way that I can justify the expense :D

Quote from: Mystery ManI just read it, that's a well written review Col. So the entirety of Ptolus is on the cd and is searchable? Are they searchable pdf's or is it html? Still not going to spend 120 bucks on it but I'm curious. :)

I'm sorry if the review wasn't clear - the entire book is not on the CD. There is a searchable glossary. There is an expanded table of contents.  The only part of the book proper on pdf is the players guide. Since I preordered, I got coupons to get two or three of the chapters on pdf from Drivethrurpg.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonMy wife is getting me it for Christmas.  It's the only way that I can justify the expense :D

You, sir, have a wonderful wife. Never forget that. :p