There's one small way that making stuff more expensive might be benficial. Of course the following could be raving, but hear me out.

By making stuff more expensive (and more time-consuming to digest, I might add), you make it more difficult for someone to play anything but your stuff. If several players share an interest in your stuff, you now have a focused community of people for whom game X is the centerpiece of their hobby. The focus in turn increases the chance that the expensive stuff will actually be used, which increases its value/price ratio while maintaining the effect of crowding out competitors for the gamers' money and attention.

In short high-buy-in can act as a signaling tool for coalescing networks of interest.

Quote from: Elliot WilenBy making stuff more expensive (and more time-consuming to digest, I might add), you make it more difficult for someone to play anything but your stuff.

If anyone fit that model, it would probably be warhammer.

:pundit: ,

The true value of any RPG book lies not in what went into it, but what you can get out of it. Ptolus has a lot in it, and because of that you can get a lot more out of it. And it's expandable. You can add to it.

Essentially what you get are the highlights. There's room to add more. Ptolus was written in the style of a tourist guide. A quick introduction to a location with the important sites and people detailed. As the PCs wander about and get to know the place better, they'll learn about lesser known sites and lesser known people.

And things are tied together. Who knows who, who hates who, who has the goods on who. Government officials, crime bosses, and religious figures all working together to keep the whole thing from falling apart. While, at the same time, seeking such advantage as they can, the better to increase their fortunes and solidify their positions. It's what The City State of the Invincible Overlord could've been had Judges Guild put any effort into deciding how it worked. In short, Ptolus make sense.

Ptolus also rewards improvisation. You don't want to run Banewarrens as is, you can incorporate the elements into your Ptolus game. As a matter of fact, you can use Ptolus without using a single formal campaign or adventure. Daily life can, in the hands of a good GM, provide enough adventure to keep most players happy. An impromptu adventure can start at an intersection, in a barber shop, or while giving directions to a vrock just arrived in town.

The city and all it's attendant parts is large enough to be what you need it to be.

Last, but not least, it impressed the fuck out of my shrink.

I think this whole argument comes down to supply and demand. The good, popular and sellable RPG books take time effort and money to put out. The RPG industry has evolved much like the Videogame industry. A few paralells:

I remember Nintendo Games when they came out were 25-35 bucks.
RPG's were $25-$35 back in the eighties too if I remember correctly. $10-$20 for paperback supplements.
 
Prices on video games moved up, as they became a profitable but Niche Market and the market expected higher production values:
Super Nintendo games cost $60-$70 depeneding on the Cart. The occasional game cost over $100 (Final Fanstay 3 was $120 when it came out). Top artists and script writers begin writing videogmes at this time. There is the occassional game that comes out with higher production costs where the MSRP is higher but it has fan service extras (Ys with it's cloth maps, big instruction book and charcter artwork)
 
RPG prices have have moved up (a little, considering general inflation) as it is considered a profitable but niche market, the market expects higher production values:
 
RPG's now range on average from $35-$50 for a game book and $25-35 on average. The occasional book costs more than $100 dollars. Top selling books are now Full color Hardcovers, with top artists providing artwork for them. There is also the occosional special edition or very high production cost product that MSRPs higher but has fan service extras (WW letherette 3rd editions, Ptolus, DnD 3.5 collectors editions).
 
Video Game prices finally came down again when they hit Mainsteam popularity (which RPG's haven't done) and the medium price came down (Which RPG's have just started with PDF books).
 
I don't think any of these prices are outragous, or "killing gaming". It cost $105 to buy-in to DnD 3.5. It is the most successful RPG on the planet. The fact that they can even OFFER $120 books, and that people are buying it is a sign that out hobby is healthy.
 
There's still the $10-$15 budget rpg's on the Market, there's still the free rpg's on the internet, you can buy used copies of the game we payed $25 back in the day for $8-$15. With inflation, $35-$50 dollars is not that much to spend on an RPG.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonYes, precisely. I think your energies would be better spent ranting for more $20 books rather than ranting against the $100+ ones.

The thing is that they're two symptoms of the same disease.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThis is the bit where I laugh hysterically.

I've got such a book, about a page away from drafted, that'll run about $20-25.

And, yes, it is meant to be pretty beginner-friendly.

That's a good thing, and more power to you! But seriously, your small-press endeavour is not the issue. The issue is Wizards, and Mongoose, and Green Ronin, etc etc.

The fact that you're making an "indie" game for $20 is fine and good, but that's not the kind of "core books" I was talking about.

RPGPundit

Quote from: NetwyrmI suspect Ptolus is what one buys after one already has all the cheap, entry-level core books needed to play any game desired... a point which I passed more than two decades ago.  

And there's the problem right there: the whole fucking industry is geared to satisfying the wants of people who bought all the core books 20 years ago.  Its a road to perdition.

QuoteI might choose to wonder why the broadest-based (and often heralded in certain near quarters) WoTC chooses to price-target $29.99 or higher for its brand name supplemental material--now that's not entry-level friendly at all, especially for those whose beginner brand-awareness extends to "D&D" and no further.

I'm in absolute agreement with this.  I think its one of the biggest criticisms I have of Wizards. I know that they're trying to make some gestures to appeal to the beginner market, and they're on the right track, but what they've done so far goes nowhere near far enough.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditOh really?

PTOLUS: $120/674 pages += 18 cents per page

So no, its not even "value for the money". And note that I think that most of those books above are pricier than they should be, as well (and more overproduced).

RPGPundit

In Ptolus' defense, that $120 also includes the CD with much more additional material, so it isn't an apples to apples comparison.

If you count .pdf content as the same as print (not that I do), it comes in closer to $.10 to $.12 per page of text.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe thing is that they're two symptoms of the same disease.

RPGPundit

Maybe so, but one is of more importance. As someone mentioned above, there has to be something out there for people who've bought all the introductory material. But if there's no introductory material, eventually there'll be no one to buy anything.

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's a good thing, and more power to you! But seriously, your small-press endeavour is not the issue. The issue is Wizards, and Mongoose, and Green Ronin, etc etc.

The fact that you're making an "indie" game for $20 is fine and good, but that's not the kind of "core books" I was talking about.

RPGPundit

If what passes for the majors in this hobby aren't going to touch the concept, it's up to the little guy to show them what's up.  Hopefully trends on the ground will wake someone in Brand Management up to what has to be done.

If the market's there, someone will fill it.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd there's the problem right there: the whole fucking industry is geared to satisfying the wants of people who bought all the core books 20 years ago.  Its a road to perdition.

I don't disagree with this notion, but to do away with products for people who have all the core stuff already isn't going to help with the situation. You might argue that companies spend too many resources on the upper-end of the customer spectrum, but as I've said before, it's the mid-level stuff that should be priced at introductory prices that's the real cause for concern. Not every book needs to be a hardback, or have shiny pages, or beautiful artwork. But that's what buyers expect now, even for the low-end products. The basic set for D&D with the paperback PHB is a step in the right direction. I'd hope to see more stuff along those lines.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd there's the problem right there: the whole fucking industry is geared to satisfying the wants of people who bought all the core books 20 years ago.

I don't think this is true at all.
 
I think there are plenty of Mainstream RPG's out there that are cheap enough to play. I think tht Asking $35 for a complete core isn't asking too much.
 
This isn't 1985 anymore. A dollar isn't worth as much. What used to cost $75 for three AD&D core books is now $105. That's a little less than a 30% increase in price, when inflation has hit at damn near 80-100% on other items. I remeber when a top of the line TV was $6,000.
 
Now they're $12,000 or more.
 
Things are much better than they were.
Just given the fact people can even try to make these $120 monsrtosities for the "hardcore" crowd says the industry is healthy and growing. We have such a variety of options that we never had before. From $20 indy .pdf to $35 all in one Corebooks to $25 WotC Starter sets with miniatures, a character sheet and Dice!
 
Instead of "Oh woe is me, the end is near!" you should be saying "Wow, this is a great time to be a gamer! An all inclusive 600+ page setting book that's 90% useful information, you never would have seen this 10 years ago!"

Here in Malaysia with the exchange rate the way how it is, you would have to pay about 120 RM for a $40 book, so to buy Ptolus which cost $120  you could end up paying 400RM dollars for the whole thing.

I don't know the exact demographic of the gamers here, but I sure as hell, think you need money for this hobby, esp if you collect/play certain games.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: mythusmageLast, but not least, it impressed the fuck out of my shrink.

Come on, you've got to explain this bit

I'm not a fan of the giant omnibus approach to gaming texts. It's hard for me to justify spending that much money all at once on just one book. I hope that this isn't the direction in which the industry is heading.

Almost as bad are the tiny little game books that cost close to $30.00 each. RuneQuest, I'm looking at you.