Quote from: RPGPunditIts "collector creep".  More and more of the hobby is being turned toward allowing rabid fanboy collectors cream their pants at spending absurd sums of money for games that are more pretty than useful. And of course, each time, the next "collectible" has to be more special than the last.

I understand your concern, but I've not seen any reviewer claim Ptolus or World's Largest Dungeon were unplayable coffee table pieces.

Quote from: RPGPunditYea but only five years ago, it would have been pretty much unthinkeable.

No, i think in a few more years, mark my words, we'll be seeing 12-volume encyclopedic hardcovers with book-spine collages that come with a slip case, full colour glossy illustrations and maps, retailing for $250US or more.

Its "collector creep".  More and more of the hobby is being turned toward allowing rabid fanboy collectors cream their pants at spending absurd sums of money for games that are more pretty than useful. And of course, each time, the next "collectible" has to be more special than the last.

RPGPundit

Maybe, maybe, maybe, but I still think you're aiming at the wrong target. The real problem is that the average game book right now is hovering in the $30-40 range, with $40-50 becoming more common. Big, deluxe products like Ptolus aren't the signs of the Apocalypse. That came back when the first $40 game book was released and there was a general show of support from a fan base that was willing to pay that on a regular basis. I'm not prepared to spend $120 very often on any kind of book. But I've gotten more and more used to $40 ones, and don't blink when I see the price. I'm not buying as many of them, but it hasn't slowed down others. The real battle to keep prices down is going on at the $40 level, but the front lines are being steadily pushed back.

Quote from: droogI really do think JK's got a point. I'm pretty impartial here, as I don't play D&D, and I've got to say that Ptolus sounds like value for money. If you've got the money.

Oh really?

RIFTS Ultimate edition: $34/376 pages = 9cents per page

Qin: The Warring States: $38/272 pages = 12 cents per page

GURPS basic set (2 core books): $75/576 pages = 13 cents per page

Shadowrun 4e: $35/352 pages = 9 cents per page

PTOLUS: $120/674 pages += 18 cents per page

So no, its not even "value for the money". And note that I think that most of those books above are pricier than they should be, as well (and more overproduced).

RPGPundit

Quote from: jrientsI understand your concern, but I've not seen any reviewer claim Ptolus or World's Largest Dungeon were unplayable coffee table pieces.

Unplayable coffee table books? No, that special award goes to Nobilis.

But that their emphasis is more on prettiness than on playability, more on collectability than practicality? Definitely.

RPGPundit

Pundit, you know that a page is not a fixed metric of game content.  Also, are you including the stuff in the envelope and on the disc in your pagecount of Ptolus?  I think you're near Rifts' 9 cents at that point.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonMaybe, maybe, maybe, but I still think you're aiming at the wrong target. The real problem is that the average game book right now is hovering in the $30-40 range, with $40-50 becoming more common. Big, deluxe products like Ptolus aren't the signs of the Apocalypse. That came back when the first $40 game book was released and there was a general show of support from a fan base that was willing to pay that on a regular basis. I'm not prepared to spend $120 very often on any kind of book. But I've gotten more and more used to $40 ones, and don't blink when I see the price. I'm not buying as many of them, but it hasn't slowed down others. The real battle to keep prices down is going on at the $40 level, but the front lines are being steadily pushed back.

Yes, I certainly agree with you. Its all part of the same phenomenon, the same illness inside the hobby.

The lack of $20 core rulebooks is what will ultimately kill us.

RPGPundit

Yeah, I'm with ColonelHardisson.  I wouldn't be the least worried about the high end of the spectrum if the lower end looked healthier.

Quote from: Mr. Analytical$120 for 600-pages sounds to me like a reasonable deal if you take into account the usual RPG caveat ("It's worth it if you play it, otherwise you'd be better off spending it on hookers, blow and Haribo").

It's about 672 pages (as I say in my review which nobody wants to read ), but on top of that, there are hundreds of pages of material on the CD included with the book. So it's an even better deal. Plus, you make a great point - if the book is used, then it's not a bad price to pay. It has a lot more material than the equivalent amount spent on normal-sized adventures. A lot more, as a matter of fact. $120 isn't going to buy you a lot of other gam books, when it comes right down to it. And that's because, as I said above, the real problem is the increasing number of $40 books at the low end of the spectrum.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe thing that astonishes me though is that people seem to actually get $120 worth of use out of these things.  I mean over at RPGMP3 they've been playing The World's Largest Dungeon for what seems like 15 years and they're not bored of the game or of their characters.

I know that at EN World there is a huge WLD in actual play thread that gets bumped up ever so often. Truth to tell, I didn't think WLD was worth the money. Ptolus is.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalAt the moment I think I'm playing in the finest game I've ever played in (and by the high standards of my experiences with my current group that's saying something) but in a year's time or even 6 months time I can't imagine myself not having itchy feet and wanting to try something different.

That could be a problem. That's why something priced like WLD or Ptolus should be more versatile and wide-ranging, to ensure literally years of usefulness. I don't think WLD is diverse enough for that, but Ptolus is.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI don't think these books and boxes are for the collector's market.  I think a lot of corebooks and supplements are but proper adventures are meant to be played, I just marvel at people's attention spans and how uncurious they are about other campaigns they COULD be playing.

Again, that's a point, but I don't think it's them being incurious. I think it's more that, for them, the adventure is diverse enough in scope to hold their attention.

Anywya, the thing about Ptolus and WLD is that it only takes a few duds to scare off publishers from making more of them. Sure, now that Monte has put out Ptolus, there will likely be imitators, but damn, Ptolus really places the bar high. Any imitators had better be of at least of a quality as high as Ptolus to make money.

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, I certainly agree with you. Its all part of the same phenomenon, the same illness inside the hobby.

The lack of $20 core rulebooks is what will ultimately kill us.

RPGPundit

Yes, precisely. I think your energies would be better spent ranting for more $20 books rather than ranting against the $100+ ones.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe lack of $20 core rulebooks is what will ultimately kill us.

No dude – the kids will just download it free off the internet.

Quote from: RPGPunditUnplayable coffee table books? No, that special award goes to Nobilis.

But that their emphasis is more on prettiness than on playability, more on collectability than practicality? Definitely.

RPGPundit

I have to differ with you here, as far as Ptolus is concerned. I have the book, and while prettiness was definitely a design goal, that prettiness was equaled in importance by practicality. Matter of fact, look at Monte's design journals for the book on his site. He emphasizes that practicality was of paramount importance, and I don't doubt it. It's his Malhavoc swansong, and he wanted to go out at the top of his game.

WLD...well, I didn't think it was all that pretty, and not terribly well-organized.

Quote from: jrientsPundit, you know that a page is not a fixed metric of game content.  Also, are you including the stuff in the envelope and on the disc in your pagecount of Ptolus?  I think you're near Rifts' 9 cents at that point.

I can only guess that you're right. There are 300+ pages of extra material on that CD. Plus, for someone like me who pre-ordered ($10 a month is nicer than $120 all at once), there was the Delver's Guide site that can be accessed for even more material. Last I checked, it was probably 70+ pages of material if put into Word form.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe lack of $20 core rulebooks is what will ultimately kill us.

This is the bit where I laugh hysterically.

I've got such a book, about a page away from drafted, that'll run about $20-25.

And, yes, it is meant to be pretty beginner-friendly.

I agree that $20 is a better price point for corebooks because all of these $50 deluxe hardback things and huge boxed sets represent an industry trying harder and harder to wring more and more money out of its existing fanbase while simultaneously not attempting in any real way to make the hobby accessible to newbies.

...and we know how well that business model worked for the comics industry.


I agree that a city seems far more interesting and flexible than a dungeon and therefore potentially more likely to be worth the money.  I mean, was WLD flexible at all?  all the actual play accounts I've seen seem to start the same way with the giant corpse and people being locked inside.

Having said that, I think it's foolish to spend that kind of money on a module anyway.  People who don't write their own stuff are cutting off their nose to spite their face.

I have no problem with $120 supplements, and Ptolus is sitting on the shelf down at the FLGS--causing no shortage at all, as far as I can tell, of the availability of Palladium $20 supplements, Hero $20 supplements, or Green Ronin $20 supplements, which seem to be in good supply in their inventory.

I suspect Ptolus is what one buys after one already has all the cheap, entry-level core books needed to play any game desired... a point which I passed more than two decades ago.

It is the availability of items like Ptolus which, I think, *sustains* the hobby--if all I could get was starter sets, I wouldn't be contributing financially in any way to the RPG/hobby market.

Not so much a collector's item, as a connisseur's item--something deep enough, and rich enough, and produced by a recognized expert in the field playing at the top of his game. I instead choose to celebrate Mr. Cook for choosing to improve the richness of the RPG ecosystem with his offering.

I might choose to wonder why the broadest-based (and often heralded in certain near quarters) WoTC chooses to price-target $29.99 or higher for its brand name supplemental material--now that's not entry-level friendly at all, especially for those whose beginner brand-awareness extends to "D&D" and no further.

Denigrate me as a collector, if you will, I care not--I am quite sure that my purchasing of supplements contributes to their continued availability and lower price point in general for those who "only play."