We now have Ptolus, which is over 600 pages, if I'm not mistaken, and retails at about $120US.

My question: How much bigger can games or game sourcebooks like this possibly get? We already saw the "world's largest dungeon", and the "world's largest city" is coming up I believe.

More importantly: how much bigger do they have to get before people start agreeing with me that the gaming companies are blindly marketing to the would-be "collectors" out there, and that this is doing more harm than good to the hobby?

RPGPundit

I haven't read the book, because I'm not about to spend $120 on a corebook (it IS a corebook, right?). Does it include all the splats that otherwise would've been released separately? Is it delivered to my doorstep by a smiling Thai hooker with a gift certificate?

Because it better be.

[edit]: It's a sourcebook? I like lots and lots of flavor information as much as the next obsessive GM, but this is, as they say, absoludicrous. Count me out.

I bought a $120 textbook once. I almost bought a $250 one, but I couldn't quite bring myself to spend the money. I just got it out of the library.

I'm sure somebody bought it.

Quote from: GeekkakeI haven't read the book, because I'm not about to spend $120 on a corebook (it IS a corebook, right?).

Nope, not a corebook. Its a sourcebook for D20 about a really big city.

QuoteIs it delivered to my doorstep by a smiling Thai hooker with a gift certificate?

That's pretty well where it would have to be at for me to buy it. And at that point, $120 would be a steal.

RPGPundit

I think Ptolus and world's largest dungeon (or whatever the name was) are as big as they're going to get.  That size is already rare and I haven't seen a major company do it.  

I think Ptolus was a dream product for Monte Cook.  He started Malhavoc mainly to put out his ideal product, aware that it might be merely a niche product.  I don't think even he thinks that this is the wave of the future.

Is it worth it? Dunno, don't have it.  But it sounds like it gives you everything you need for a year long campaign - no extra splat books, area books, magic books or anything.  If you can get 40-50 sessions from one product, then it's worth it.

Is this just a function of marketing?

If Monte had released the same material as four $20 sourcebooks and four $10 adventures, would you say that it was only stupid collectors who bought them?  According to the 1999 WotC survey, GMs will have an average total expenditure of $2000 on RPG books.  

Then again, there are many hobbies which are much more expensive than that.

I don't know, but I'm still waiting for my 6000-page compendium of the entirety of the Third Imperium, UltraTraveller.

Not that I know a whit about the game industry, but I think interest in high-end collectible stuff can be supported indefinitely in small print runs, so long as there are cheaper ways of getting into the hobby.  You need the entry-level products to create the hardcore purchasers of the collectible stuff.  I feel the comics comparison is relevant here too.  You can sell expensive "Absolute Editions" and whatnot so long as you are actively courting people with cheaper newbie stuff.  Of course, the amount to which either industry is actually courting the newbies is subject to debate.

I really do think JK's got a point. I'm pretty impartial here, as I don't play D&D, and I've got to say that Ptolus sounds like value for money. If you've got the money.

(That's about 160 of our antipodean dollars.)

Quote from: RPGPunditMore importantly: how much bigger do they have to get before people start agreeing with me that the gaming companies are blindly marketing to the would-be "collectors" out there, and that this is doing more harm than good to the hobby?

Oh, I think you'd have to have an awful big book before you'll see people rushing to agree with you, Pundit.  I'm thinking "The Complete Harry Potter Omnibus" big, at a minimum.

They may eventually conclude the same things you already believe on the subject, but agree with you?  Would you even want that?

If a rulebook gets too big, then it will collapse in on itself and form a black hole.  That's the theoretical maximum.  

Ptolus already has a couple more books on a CD in the back.

I am playing in a game of Ptolus, it is an excellent book in my opinion. I think it's damn near six hundred pages long, and it comes with a DVD with PDF's of a nother six hundred pages. There is a lot of official and unofficial Web support for it.
 
It's not your standard detail in a setting. It has the menus for a lot of the resturaunts and bars you would frequent, price lists at a clothiers shop. Printout wanted posters as possible plot hooks. Players have a lot of freedom to pick their path. If they want to pursue the criminals, they can, and it has the adventure module for it. If the want to delve underneath the city, they can and it has the modules for it. If they want to work with one of the cities leagues and guilds, they can, and it has the adventure modules for it. If you want to climb the Spire in the center, yeah, it's got that! Even if they want to leave Ptolus, there are details on the small nation that Ptoslus inhabits with neiboring cities and societies abound, and there's adventure modules for that too!
 
Ptolus is a massive book, with in character printouts for everything. A ton of maps and even more on the DVD and the website.
 
I think it's worth $120, however...not everyone has $120 to spend on a DnD book.
 

Quote from: NicephorusI think Ptolus and world's largest dungeon (or whatever the name was) are as big as they're going to get.  That size is already rare and I haven't seen a major company do it.  

Yea but only five years ago, it would have been pretty much unthinkeable.

No, i think in a few more years, mark my words, we'll be seeing 12-volume encyclopedic hardcovers with book-spine collages that come with a slip case, full colour glossy illustrations and maps, retailing for $250US or more.

Its "collector creep".  More and more of the hobby is being turned toward allowing rabid fanboy collectors cream their pants at spending absurd sums of money for games that are more pretty than useful. And of course, each time, the next "collectible" has to be more special than the last.

RPGPundit

Quote from: GeekkakeI haven't read the book, because I'm not about to spend $120 on a corebook (it IS a corebook, right?). Does it include all the splats that otherwise would've been released separately? Is it delivered to my doorstep by a smiling Thai hooker with a gift certificate?

Because it better be.

[edit]: It's a sourcebook? I like lots and lots of flavor information as much as the next obsessive GM, but this is, as they say, absoludicrous. Count me out.

Read my review of it on this very site.

$120 for 600-pages sounds to me like a reasonable deal if you take into account the usual RPG caveat ("It's worth it if you play it, otherwise you'd be better off spending it on hookers, blow and Haribo").

The thing that astonishes me though is that people seem to actually get $120 worth of use out of these things.  I mean over at RPGMP3 they've been playing The World's Largest Dungeon for what seems like 15 years and they're not bored of the game or of their characters.

At the moment I think I'm playing in the finest game I've ever played in (and by the high standards of my experiences with my current group that's saying something) but in a year's time or even 6 months time I can't imagine myself not having itchy feet and wanting to try something different.

I don't think these books and boxes are for the collector's market.  I think a lot of corebooks and supplements are but proper adventures are meant to be played, I just marvel at people's attention spans and how uncurious they are about other campaigns they COULD be playing.