I don't want to rant but this thread made me think of my own encounter with a CR-fan DM.

I was pretty apathetic about CR and found it quite cringe, but nothing I really cared about. A couple of years ago me and a player from my group were invited to play in a campaign by a friend-of a-friend who wanted to try to start DMing 5e. And the DM and the rest of the group were CR-hobby-tourists. There was a complete culture-chock for sure. The DM seemed taken completely by surprise by us playing the game, exploring the dungeon, fighting tactically to beat enemies.

The DM had an self-insert cringe oh-so-funny-chaotic-rogue in the party to lead us and show how bad our characters where (like give heavy penalties to players trying to do the same basic actions as snowflake DM insert). No real story was presented or  any clear objective were layed out for us other than completing a generic dungeon. But still it was obvious the DM tried extremely hard to make us emulate CR thropes like "wohoo-high-five-critical hit!" and would fugde rolls against boss enemies so the *scene* would play out as "intended".

It was a very odd and not very joyful experience for us, but we tried our best giving some very mild friendly suggestions about DMing and explaining how a conventional game of D&D actually plays after the game. The DM would retort in talking points that D&D was just a make-belive drama that doesn't need to follow any rules or should be like a freeform improv theater. I suggested,  mildly, that maybe another roleplaying game like Fate Accelerated would fit better for the type of game DM was after. But nope, that's not what CR plays.

The DM lost interest and dropped D&D and roleplaying completely after one more half-hearted attempt to get a game going.

And that is my anecdotal tale of my encounter with the Mercer-effect.

Double post. Delete

Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2024, 06:41:14 AM
I think we are already seeing a new problem raising its head and that I will term "The Colville Effect" as people take his bad GMing advice and problems erupt.

I've watched a few Colville vids. While I don't agree with everything he says, I haven't heard him give any terrible GM advice. Do you have any examples at hand?

Unlike Mercer, Colville comes across as a genuine RPGer. (And general TT enthusiast. Dude was streaming the Dune board game before the new movies popped out.)

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 06, 2024, 02:38:11 AM
The revolution always eats its own, and straight white male feminist activists will always be the first on the block. Which is why Mercer gave $50000 to Hamas as a desperate attempt to keep himself from being cancelled.

Don't worry, Matt will come out as trans and Marsha will stay with her girlfriend in support of her "transition" as a lesbian couple.

Scripted "Reality" Shows of all types, have always been cake for the ignorant masses.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 06, 2024, 12:36:14 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2024, 06:41:14 AM
I think we are already seeing a new problem raising its head and that I will term "The Colville Effect" as people take his bad GMing advice and problems erupt.

I've watched a few Colville vids. While I don't agree with everything he says, I haven't heard him give any terrible GM advice. Do you have any examples at hand?

Unlike Mercer, Colville comes across as a genuine RPGer. (And general TT enthusiast. Dude was streaming the Dune board game before the new movies popped out.)

Colville has gone down the road of RPGs as guided-story lately (he's definitely not a "sandbox" guy now, though he did originally have some pretty good videos on them).  He's advocated for fudging, quantum ogres, and result over process (as in the mechanics and rolls shouldn't get in the way of the "moment of triumph" for the players) here and there, which I don't think is really good advice.  His recent foray into RPG design is pretty clearly drawing from many of the conceits and mechanics of D&D 4e (many of which are the meta-mechanics) and seems unconcerned with simulation or fluff (granted, it's still in development, so that could come later).  So it's hardly surprising that some folks on a mostly OSR-focused board might not feel that he's taking new DMs in a productive direction...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 06, 2024, 02:59:47 PM
Colville has gone down the road of RPGs as guided-story lately (he's definitely not a "sandbox" guy now, though he did originally have some pretty good videos on them).  He's advocated for fudging, quantum ogres, and result over process

I did notice he seemed to have changed, his early stuff was pretty good.

Critical role is not "Scripted". Certainly not the way people think.

Once you understand what they are doing, it becomes obvious why explicitly "scripting" the show is just not needed.


Pulling from an older post of mine:

Critical Role is basically improv theater. It is a Reality TV Show about Playing DnD.

They all are trained improv actors explicitly putting on a show. Using an RPG as the central prop/premise that they all bounce off of.

Big hint: The Players refer to themselves as "The Cast"... Mercer doesn't need to "script" anything because they are all buying into the central premise of the show.

Mercer's GM "skills" are wildly overblown due to the players being there specifically to make things as smooth as possible for him. There is no "Fuck this. Let's go be pirates!" from the players critical role "Cast"...

He is basically leading them down a guided Adventure Path; with every branch more or less plotted out ahead of time. And they happily comply each step of the way.


For Kicks I listened to part of an episode where Mercer let a PC die: (To much wailing and gnashing of teeth...)

Campaign 2 Ep 26 (The one where Mercer actually kills a PC)

I skipped to the last part, and I heard some rather interesting stuff when I just wanted to see their reaction when the PC bought it...

At 3:23:30  - Mercer pulls out a terrain map for their ambush fight:

A player proves his own cluelessness and says: "You can't know that...No way you could..."

Mercer says: "I have multiple maps prepared depending on where things happen."

I can only surmise that the clueless player is so used to "playing D&D" on Adventure Path rails that he doesn't even realize that he is riding them...

At 3:24:10  - Another player informs the clueless one: "He did move 4 to 5 maps into the building today." Then referring to a room in the CR building: "... no Cast allowed in here."

At 3:25:03  -  Mercer breaks out the prepped map and says: "This scenario that you've found..."


Just from this brief exchange, we are able to see how things really work:

1- CR does make an effort to conceal details of the AP/Episode from the players. IMHO this is important for them to maintain their credibility with their fans for being "unscripted".

But being #unscripted just doesn't matter.   

Because:

2- Mercer is clearly running a Guided Adventure Path. Yes there are 'branches', but it is clear from the exchange shown that they are usually accounted for well in advance.

3- The fact that the group walked straight into his prep proves that they are happily following along with the overall intended "plot" of the AP in front of them. (Clueless player aside. But in his defense; He clearly knows no other way to "play" D&D.)

All AP roads lead to Mercer's storytelling Rome. Mercer rarely, has to 'wing it' in reaction to the PC's actions.


Props to Mercer for letting the dice fall where they may, and actually killing the PC. But it is clear from the Players reactions, and some of the commentary at the end of the show: That that PC death was a literal fluke of the dice and circumstances, and was not viewed as something "on the table" in the typical CR combat...

Despite the fact that the CR team has been playing D&D for years, they still get razzed periodically for their lack of rules knowledge. What these commentators don't understand is that these players have been selected for their ability to play their PC's in-character whist following along with Mercer's AP campaigns.

So no. The CR players are not told what has been plotted out for them ahead of time. This is very important so that they are able to keep up credibility with their fans, and prove to potential naysayers that they are "unscripted". Mercer not fudging die rolls is part of the fan cred as well.

But like I said above, CR being #unscripted does not means what its fans think it means!

The players are willingly walking through a crafted Adventure Path. They refer to themselves as "The Cast". They are very much playing a role as their PC's during the "game".

These are all trained improv actors who can infer what direction is required of them as Mercer drops various adventures hooks and hints.

Again, it's textbook improve theatre, using Mercer's story cues as the central prop that they all bounce off of. (And actual improv works off of even less than that, so they are not being pressed too hard to fill their roles.)

And that is the Big Secret of Critical Role: They are all onboard to put on The Show. They are not going to do anything that would detract from the Story that Mercer nudges them into.

Is CR really "playing" D&D?

In my opinion; they are maintaining the minimum needed to make that claim.

But compared to your home sessions? It is an Artificial, Curated, and Staged "game" that very much tells the Story Mercer sets out to tell...

Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2024, 04:13:43 PM
Critical role is not "Scripted". Certainly not the way people think.

Once you understand what they are doing, it becomes obvious why explicitly "scripting" the show is just not needed.


Pulling from an older post of mine:

Critical Role is basically improv theater. It is a Reality TV Show about Playing DnD.

They all are trained improv actors explicitly putting on a show. Using an RPG as the central prop/premise that they all bounce off of.

This is, IMO, a more accurate description of Critical Role.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 06, 2024, 02:59:47 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 06, 2024, 12:36:14 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2024, 06:41:14 AM
I think we are already seeing a new problem raising its head and that I will term "The Colville Effect" as people take his bad GMing advice and problems erupt.

I've watched a few Colville vids. While I don't agree with everything he says, I haven't heard him give any terrible GM advice. Do you have any examples at hand?

Unlike Mercer, Colville comes across as a genuine RPGer. (And general TT enthusiast. Dude was streaming the Dune board game before the new movies popped out.)

Colville has gone down the road of RPGs as guided-story lately (he's definitely not a "sandbox" guy now, though he did originally have some pretty good videos on them).  He's advocated for fudging, quantum ogres, and result over process (as in the mechanics and rolls shouldn't get in the way of the "moment of triumph" for the players) here and there, which I don't think is really good advice.  His recent foray into RPG design is pretty clearly drawing from many of the conceits and mechanics of D&D 4e (many of which are the meta-mechanics) and seems unconcerned with simulation or fluff (granted, it's still in development, so that could come later).  So it's hardly surprising that some folks on a mostly OSR-focused board might not feel that he's taking new DMs in a productive direction...

Ah, that's too bad. I did like his earlier stuff.

Change the speed to .5 and Colville sounds drunk. Its funny for a minute or two.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 06, 2024, 02:59:47 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 06, 2024, 12:36:14 PM

Quote from: Omega on March 06, 2024, 06:41:14 AM
I think we are already seeing a new problem raising its head and that I will term "The Colville Effect" as people take his bad GMing advice and problems erupt.

I've watched a few Colville vids. While I don't agree with everything he says, I haven't heard him give any terrible GM advice. Do you have any examples at hand?

Unlike Mercer, Colville comes across as a genuine RPGer. (And general TT enthusiast. Dude was streaming the Dune board game before the new movies popped out.)

Colville has gone down the road of RPGs as guided-story lately (he's definitely not a "sandbox" guy now, though he did originally have some pretty good videos on them).  He's advocated for fudging, quantum ogres, and result over process (as in the mechanics and rolls shouldn't get in the way of the "moment of triumph" for the players) here and there, which I don't think is really good advice.  His recent foray into RPG design is pretty clearly drawing from many of the conceits and mechanics of D&D 4e (many of which are the meta-mechanics) and seems unconcerned with simulation or fluff (granted, it's still in development, so that could come later).  So it's hardly surprising that some folks on a mostly OSR-focused board might not feel that he's taking new DMs in a productive direction...

After the first few sessions of his Chain of Acheron campaign, the players engaged in a sandbox setting with their own goals and chose their own mercenary jobs. A lot of the second half of that campaign were the players choosing how to interact with the setting. As for fudging die rolls, I only remember him really only harping on fudging in one case, which is when the DM screws up (such as throwing the players in a situation they would never have even a chance of succeeding)... he did state that it's only if it's his fault; if the player makes a bad choice or acts stupid, we'll, the die decide their fate. Unlike a lot of Mercer-types, Colville isn't against killing his players' characters.

Quote from: Jaeger on March 06, 2024, 04:13:43 PM
And that is the Big Secret of Critical Role: They are all onboard to put on The Show. They are not going to do anything that would detract from the Story that Mercer nudges them into.

This is really the same as countless Paizo adventure path home games. The social contract is that the players follow the plot. So certainly the audience is unlikely to see a problem. If anything I get the impression they'd prefer even tighter plotting and more plot protection for the CR PCs.

Good post BTW, you explained very well how the CR cast are very much "putting on a show" but through improv techniques not scripting. I think a lot of CR's success is the cast's successful Improv of the OOC side, the 'playing themselves' as endearing D&D nerds.

Quote from: Teodrik on March 06, 2024, 12:05:11 PM
I don't want to rant but this thread made me think of my own encounter with a CR-fan DM.

I was pretty apathetic about CR and found it quite cringe, but nothing I really cared about. A couple of years ago me and a player from my group were invited to play in a campaign by a friend-of a-friend who wanted to try to start DMing 5e. And the DM and the rest of the group were CR-hobby-tourists. There was a complete culture-chock for sure. The DM seemed taken completely by surprise by us playing the game, exploring the dungeon, fighting tactically to beat enemies.

The DM had an self-insert cringe oh-so-funny-chaotic-rogue in the party to lead us and show how bad our characters where (like give heavy penalties to players trying to do the same basic actions as snowflake DM insert). No real story was presented or  any clear objective were layed out for us other than completing a generic dungeon. But still it was obvious the DM tried extremely hard to make us emulate CR thropes like "wohoo-high-five-critical hit!" and would fugde rolls against boss enemies so the *scene* would play out as "intended".

It was a very odd and not very joyful experience for us, but we tried our best giving some very mild friendly suggestions about DMing and explaining how a conventional game of D&D actually plays after the game. The DM would retort in talking points that D&D was just a make-belive drama that doesn't need to follow any rules or should be like a freeform improv theater. I suggested,  mildly, that maybe another roleplaying game like Fate Accelerated would fit better for the type of game DM was after. But nope, that's not what CR plays.

The DM lost interest and dropped D&D and roleplaying completely after one more half-hearted attempt to get a game going.

And that is my anecdotal tale of my encounter with the Mercer-effect.

Damn. That sounds about right for what the effect does.

Quote from: S'mon on March 06, 2024, 03:23:41 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 06, 2024, 02:59:47 PM
Colville has gone down the road of RPGs as guided-story lately (he's definitely not a "sandbox" guy now, though he did originally have some pretty good videos on them).  He's advocated for fudging, quantum ogres, and result over process

I did notice he seemed to have changed, his early stuff was pretty good.

Sounds as if he betrayed his real beliefs in favor of what would get more audience.