Quote from: Tod13 on August 01, 2023, 01:43:10 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 11:23:01 AM
Some of my campaigns fizzle out when a PC dies. I didn't find a good solution for this.

Any idea about why?

Did the player lose interest in the story that was no longer about them?
Or, assuming what a lot of people do, not wanting to restart a character from zero?
Or just being invested in the character and not wanting to start a new one?

I think my players say they are on board with PC death, but they lose interest immediately when this happens. Some times in the very next session, despite creating a new PC.

I think people just like their PCs.

Once we canceled the campaign, I asked for feedback and they said "they are not engaged with their PCs", because we usually build PCs with detailed backstories, and these weren't.

I have friends with D&D and CoC campaigns that last for decades - literally - with not a single PC death. It is a matter of play-style, I think.

It happened to me once; I lost a PC I enjoyed in an awesome campaign, created a new one but only played a couple of sessions (it was an open table, however, so each session was independent and I was not attending every session with my favorite PC either, mostly becasue scheduling).

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 02:45:09 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on August 01, 2023, 01:43:10 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 11:23:01 AM
Some of my campaigns fizzle out when a PC dies. I didn't find a good solution for this.

Any idea about why?

Did the player lose interest in the story that was no longer about them?
Or, assuming what a lot of people do, not wanting to restart a character from zero?
Or just being invested in the character and not wanting to start a new one?

I think my players say they are on board with PC death, but they lose interest immediately when this happens. Some times in the very next session, despite creating a new PC.

I think people just like their PCs.

Once we canceled the campaign, I asked for feedback and they said "they are not engaged with their PCs", because we usually build PCs with detailed backstories, and these weren't.

I have friends with D&D and CoC campaigns that last for decades - literally - with not a single PC death. It is a matter of play-style, I think.

It happened to me once; I lost a PC I enjoyed in an awesome campaign, created a new one but only played a couple of sessions (it was an open table, however, so each session was independent and I was not attending every session with my favorite PC either, mostly becasue scheduling).

I was lucky in that my players were upfront -- at least one didn't want their character to die.
So we ran it with 0 HP meant unconscious.
You can still fail though. So, we had a lot of fun.

I think our Traveller group is prepared for character death. It's been close several times. But also, we all adore Traveller chargen.

I GM a bi-weekly AD&D game.  I wouldn't mind playing in a game, but I only have the bandwidth/time for a monthly game, and have yet to find a monthly game that I'm really interested in.  (I have a friend who runs a monthly game, but I don't like his GMing style so I passed on it.)

Quote from: Tod13 on August 01, 2023, 02:50:03 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 02:45:09 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on August 01, 2023, 01:43:10 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 11:23:01 AM
Some of my campaigns fizzle out when a PC dies. I didn't find a good solution for this.

Any idea about why?

Did the player lose interest in the story that was no longer about them?
Or, assuming what a lot of people do, not wanting to restart a character from zero?
Or just being invested in the character and not wanting to start a new one?

I think my players say they are on board with PC death, but they lose interest immediately when this happens. Some times in the very next session, despite creating a new PC.

I think people just like their PCs.

Once we canceled the campaign, I asked for feedback and they said "they are not engaged with their PCs", because we usually build PCs with detailed backstories, and these weren't.

I have friends with D&D and CoC campaigns that last for decades - literally - with not a single PC death. It is a matter of play-style, I think.

It happened to me once; I lost a PC I enjoyed in an awesome campaign, created a new one but only played a couple of sessions (it was an open table, however, so each session was independent and I was not attending every session with my favorite PC either, mostly becasue scheduling).

I was lucky in that my players were upfront -- at least one didn't want their character to die.
So we ran it with 0 HP meant unconscious.
You can still fail though. So, we had a lot of fun.

I think our Traveller group is prepared for character death. It's been close several times. But also, we all adore Traveller chargen.

Yeah, I think making some kind of agreement up front is the best way to deal with this. I once proposed a rule that a PC can only die if WILLING; otherwise, they get unconscious before that. I'm now using a modified version, where 0 HP can have various effects but death only happens immediately on a nat 1. FWIW:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2019/12/sacrifice-d-5e-are-you-willing-to-die.html
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/07/deaths-door-table.html

Anyway, my PCs are currently level 5, and they just found a high-level cleric who can probably raise dead, no it is a non-issue.

OTOH, if a TPK ever happens I doubt they'll want to keep playing.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 03:12:44 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on August 01, 2023, 02:50:03 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 02:45:09 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on August 01, 2023, 01:43:10 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 11:23:01 AM
Some of my campaigns fizzle out when a PC dies. I didn't find a good solution for this.

Any idea about why?

Did the player lose interest in the story that was no longer about them?
Or, assuming what a lot of people do, not wanting to restart a character from zero?
Or just being invested in the character and not wanting to start a new one?

I think my players say they are on board with PC death, but they lose interest immediately when this happens. Some times in the very next session, despite creating a new PC.

I think people just like their PCs.

Once we canceled the campaign, I asked for feedback and they said "they are not engaged with their PCs", because we usually build PCs with detailed backstories, and these weren't.

I have friends with D&D and CoC campaigns that last for decades - literally - with not a single PC death. It is a matter of play-style, I think.

It happened to me once; I lost a PC I enjoyed in an awesome campaign, created a new one but only played a couple of sessions (it was an open table, however, so each session was independent and I was not attending every session with my favorite PC either, mostly becasue scheduling).

I was lucky in that my players were upfront -- at least one didn't want their character to die.
So we ran it with 0 HP meant unconscious.
You can still fail though. So, we had a lot of fun.

I think our Traveller group is prepared for character death. It's been close several times. But also, we all adore Traveller chargen.

Yeah, I think making some kind of agreement up front is the best way to deal with this. I once proposed a rule that a PC can only die if WILLING; otherwise, they get unconscious before that. I'm now using a modified version, where 0 HP can have various effects but death only happens immediately on a nat 1. FWIW:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2019/12/sacrifice-d-5e-are-you-willing-to-die.html
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/07/deaths-door-table.html

Anyway, my PCs are currently level 5, and they just found a high-level cleric who can probably raise dead, no it is a non-issue.

OTOH, if a TPK ever happens I doubt they'll want to keep playing.

It's tough when the players aren't or can't be honest about their preferences. There's also so much, "if there isn't death, you're doing it wrong" attitude, it makes it difficult for some people to say they don't want character death. (Same with the opposite in different groups, with "you can't have death, it's wrong!" attitude.)

With a TPK, I think our replacement characters would go to town on whatever killed their predecessors. (We use the chargen to make relationships with the current characters.)

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 02:45:09 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on August 01, 2023, 01:43:10 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 11:23:01 AM
Some of my campaigns fizzle out when a PC dies. I didn't find a good solution for this.

Any idea about why?

Did the player lose interest in the story that was no longer about them?
Or, assuming what a lot of people do, not wanting to restart a character from zero?
Or just being invested in the character and not wanting to start a new one?

I think my players say they are on board with PC death, but they lose interest immediately when this happens. Some times in the very next session, despite creating a new PC.

I think people just like their PCs.

Once we canceled the campaign, I asked for feedback and they said "they are not engaged with their PCs", because we usually build PCs with detailed backstories, and these weren't.

I have friends with D&D and CoC campaigns that last for decades - literally - with not a single PC death. It is a matter of play-style, I think.

It happened to me once; I lost a PC I enjoyed in an awesome campaign, created a new one but only played a couple of sessions (it was an open table, however, so each session was independent and I was not attending every session with my favorite PC either, mostly becasue scheduling).

I suspect part of it might be a sort of "Cousin Oliver" effect. The first PC was there from the start of the campaign and so has had time to form a bunch of connections to that world and it's events.

When the PC dies, the new PC doesn't have those connections, but the other PCs who haven't died still have that connection and so the new PC feels like something of a tag along character rather than one of the stars.

I had this happen in a Tales of the Jedi campaign decades ago. All the PCs were intrinsically connected to the campaign and its progression. Then one of the PCs fell to the darkside (got two points in quick succession with a 1 on the second roll) and in the subsequent Dark Jedi rampage killed the PC that was his brother, and the pilot PC got blown into space trying to keep the Dark Jedi from stealing his ship.

My PC and a brand new player's PC (so not a part of the ongoing story) were the only survivors. But other than my PC being a Jedi and ergo duty bound to stop the now villainous ex-PC there was basically no hooks left so the whole campaign died right there and after a couple week break we started running a different system in a new campaign entirely.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 01, 2023, 04:16:02 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 02:45:09 PM

Quote from: Tod13 on August 01, 2023, 01:43:10 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 01, 2023, 11:23:01 AM
Some of my campaigns fizzle out when a PC dies. I didn't find a good solution for this.

Any idea about why?

Did the player lose interest in the story that was no longer about them?
Or, assuming what a lot of people do, not wanting to restart a character from zero?
Or just being invested in the character and not wanting to start a new one?

I think my players say they are on board with PC death, but they lose interest immediately when this happens. Some times in the very next session, despite creating a new PC.

I think people just like their PCs.

Once we canceled the campaign, I asked for feedback and they said "they are not engaged with their PCs", because we usually build PCs with detailed backstories, and these weren't.

I have friends with D&D and CoC campaigns that last for decades - literally - with not a single PC death. It is a matter of play-style, I think.

It happened to me once; I lost a PC I enjoyed in an awesome campaign, created a new one but only played a couple of sessions (it was an open table, however, so each session was independent and I was not attending every session with my favorite PC either, mostly becasue scheduling).

I suspect part of it might be a sort of "Cousin Oliver" effect. The first PC was there from the start of the campaign and so has had time to form a bunch of connections to that world and it's events.

When the PC dies, the new PC doesn't have those connections, but the other PCs who haven't died still have that connection and so the new PC feels like something of a tag along character rather than one of the stars.

I had this happen in a Tales of the Jedi campaign decades ago. All the PCs were intrinsically connected to the campaign and its progression. Then one of the PCs fell to the darkside (got two points in quick succession with a 1 on the second roll) and in the subsequent Dark Jedi rampage killed the PC that was his brother, and the pilot PC got blown into space trying to keep the Dark Jedi from stealing his ship.

My PC and a brand new player's PC (so not a part of the ongoing story) were the only survivors. But other than my PC being a Jedi and ergo duty bound to stop the now villainous ex-PC there was basically no hooks left so the whole campaign died right there and after a couple week break we started running a different system in a new campaign entirely.

Ah. We used MgT2 chargen to make relationships between PCs to link everyone's backstories. We have characters with shared backstories, where one of them doesn't know about it for "reasons". Everyone has links to 3-4 other characters at least. And we all share links to a big bad guy that hasn't really appeared much yet.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 01, 2023, 02:14:10 PM

Since I encouraged it, I'll take a stab at delineating stages:

• Rules and events:  Beginning GMs tend to focus on rules (and when to ruling) and events (like set pieces).  They spend most of their time on "cool" moments that they are trying to get to and what rules govern what actions the players or NPCs take
• Flow: Once comfortable, the GMs move to concentrating on how to get players from one "event" to the next.  They start developing "worlds", "side-quests", "homebrew", and other extensions of the setting and rules
• Immersion: GMs discard most of the things they developed in the previous stage (or de-emphasize it).
  They begin to focus on the setting as a "place", with it's own logic, life, events, and presence beyond just the actions of the players.

Have at it...

When you put it like that, it's not really all that different from how people learn to play either, or least it is analogous.  They are focused at first on just understanding what is going on, how to role the funny dice, what it means when the GM asks "What do you do?"  Then they start to get the rhythm of the game, riffing off of other characters and events.  Then that becomes second nature and they can really begin to engage as the character.

That last one doesn't necessarily translate to Immersion, either, though it would seem to be a prerequisite to it.  I've also seen it go where the group had mastered the rules and flow, which allows them to effortlessly play through the game--despite running gags, constantly breaking the fourth wall, and other such shenanigans.  It's farce instead of immersion, but it is well-oiled farce.

I'm usually the GM, with fewer opportunities to just be a player. I was running four games simultaneously last year when I finally burned out, so I took a sabbatical from gaming and the net. I started to poke around a bit on the net again this year and just recently joined two games as a player, one online and one in person. I already feel burdened.

But my perspective is no doubt colored by my time with gaming (since the 70s), and my age (close to or at "senior" status).

I have been a GM since 1981 a d I enjoy the hell out of it.  I also enjoy being a player. 

In my gaming group, I am one out of 3 GM's.  We take turns running.  I so run D&D at my local game store and also run non-D&D games on the occasional Wednesday night. 

I estimate that I am the GM 70% of the time.  I will try to encourage more people to take up the GM mantle.

Greetings!

Yeah, I GM most of the time. I GM for three different campaigns, and I participate as a Player Character in two other campaigns.

I have been running game campaigns for many years. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Historically over the last 43 years I have GM'ed quite a bit. At times I was the only one willing to run games so I did. At present, I am enjoying being a player in two different games. Our group has five GMs and we rotate running stuff which is pretty great. I am next up when a slot opens up and I plan to continue an AD&D campaign that has been on hiatus since 2018. After that I am starting a B/X campaign.

In highschool I GMed probably about a quarter of the time. In college, about 50% of the time. Now, as an adult, it's probably about 80-90% of the time.

The last year or so has been a complete dry spell of everything because of real life obligations on the part of pretty much everyone in the group, though. The fun of being middle aged adults with obligations.

I GM for the most part, currently i gm 1 irl game, 1 online, and 3 play by chat games.

I haven't GMed for a group in years, but I still GM a lot in the solo gamer capacity switching between GM and Player hats.