Quote from: kosmos1214;928258The fuck are you smoking? Guild wars is in no way the first MMO. Asheron's Call and its sequel , Ultima Online, Runescape and Meridian 59 all predate Guild Wars. Even World of Warcraft.
Meridian 59(1995)

I took "Guild Wars (the first MMO)" to mean "Guild Wars 1, as opposed to Guild Wars 2."

Quote from: The Butcher;928259I took "Guild Wars (the first MMO)" to mean "Guild Wars 1, as opposed to Guild Wars 2."

You're probably right.  Then again...

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;927442That has always driven me crazy.  I like lots of bits of Glorantha but the "everyone is right" bit has always stuck in my craw.  Give me a little damn objectivity, please.

The "everyone is right" becomes objective (and brilliant) if you take the Heroquesting approach to its logical extreme: when some major hero goes Heroquesting in the God Time, he rewrites history. So when he comes back to the "current time" he finds out the history of the world has been retroactively changed to accommodate his own actions.

But somehow, there's always someone who remembers something about how things "used to be". Maybe he, too, was stuck in the God Plane at the time of the change, or maybe he was protected by some other magical effect. Whatever.

So when you get several different retellings of the same episode, they're all right because at one time or another they all used to be historical truth. Then some fucker went gallivanting in the God Plane and changed stuff.

Quote from: Luca;928301The "everyone is right" becomes objective (and brilliant) if you take the Heroquesting approach to its logical extreme: when some major hero goes Heroquesting in the God Time, he rewrites history. So when he comes back to the "current time" he finds out the history of the world has been retroactively changed to accommodate his own actions.

That's what Stafford does already. But when creating information for GMs the outcome is neither objective nor brilliant. It's just arbitrarily confusing, fuzzy, and vague. None of which assists me as a GM trying to use published setting information to run a campaign.

I don't object to the stories from the Gbaji-wars conflicting with stories from the Dragon-kill war or the stories from Third Age Dragon Pass. Just give me a fixed point for whichever setting period you have chosen to describe and let me do the changes from there. I don't need or want an active metaplot screwing up the explanations of the current setting every time the designer gets a new idea.

Quote from: Bren;928310That's what Stafford does already. But when creating information for GMs the outcome is neither objective nor brilliant. It's just arbitrarily confusing, fuzzy, and vague. None of which assists me as a GM trying to use published setting information to run a campaign.

I don't object to the stories from the Gbaji-wars conflicting with stories from the Dragon-kill war or the stories from Third Age Dragon Pass. Just give me a fixed point for whichever setting period you have chosen to describe and let me do the changes from there. I don't need or want an active metaplot screwing up the explanations of the current setting every time the designer gets a new idea.

Glorantha "originally" (and I use the term very loosely here) didn't really have a metaplot, that's why it worked so beautifully. Let's say around the time of Runequest 3rd edition, when most of the world info available out there was from the Avalon Hill's boxed sets ("Generthela: Crucible of the Hero Wars", "Gods of Glorantha", "Elder Secrets" and the ones on trolls) and a bunch of books from the previous Chaosium's editions (Pavis, Big Rubble, the two Cults books). You only had a starting point (the beginning of the Hero Wars) and a bunch of conflicting accounts on the past due to all the shenanigans happened before that  point.

This beauty has been increasingly lost with the passing of time. I think the major culprit here is the inclusion of Stafford's non-rpg works as game canon. This tendency has culminated with the appendix in the current Guide to Glorantha which is supposed to tell you what happens to the game world for the next few hundred years. It's quite "objective". It's also quite lame since it horribly restricts the campaign space. But this problem is relatively "new" as it didn't really exist for the first few years of the setting's publication.

Quote from: Luca;928313Glorantha "originally" (and I use the term very loosely here) didn't really have a metaplot, that's why it worked so beautifully. Let's say around the time of Runequest 3rd edition, when most of the world info available out there was from the Avalon Hill's boxed sets ("Generthela: Crucible of the Hero Wars", "Gods of Glorantha", "Elder Secrets" and the ones on trolls) and a bunch of books from the previous Chaosium's editions (Pavis, Big Rubble, the two Cults books). You only had a starting point (the beginning of the Hero Wars) and a bunch of conflicting accounts on the past due to all the shenanigans happened before that  point.

This beauty has been increasingly lost with the passing of time. I think the major culprit here is the inclusion of Stafford's non-rpg works as game canon. This tendency has culminated with the appendix in the current Guide to Glorantha which is supposed to tell you what happens to the game world for the next few hundred years. It's quite "objective". It's also quite lame since it horribly restricts the campaign space. But this problem is relatively "new" as it didn't really exist for the first few years of the setting's publication.

It's also easy to rectify merely by ignoring some, mostly non-rpg texts;).

Quote from: Luca;928313Glorantha "originally" (and I use the term very loosely here) didn't really have a metaplot, that's why it worked so beautifully.

I'm not sure about that. Sometimes I think yes, sometimes no. I will agree though the original White Bear, Red Moon (later Dragonpass) boardgame did set up a pretty even war between the Lunars and Argath and Co. with the appearance of no certain outcome.

QuoteYou only had a starting point (the beginning of the Hero Wars) and a bunch of conflicting accounts on the past due to all the shenanigans happened before that  point.

It was a switch I noticed in the 1990s with the publishing of King of Sartar and the new gods like Elmal and the V is for Vengeance red-haired female avenger cult. (I can't recall the name of their goddess.) It was abetted, I think, by the narrative fuzzy nature of mechanics for Hero Wars and it's successor.

QuoteI think the major culprit here is the inclusion of Stafford's non-rpg works as game canon.

I would agree that this, combined with a change in focus from publishing material to facilitate a gameable world to navel-lint gazing.

Quote from: Bren;928347(Re: metaplot) I'm not sure about that. Sometimes I think yes, sometimes no. I will agree though the original White Bear, Red Moon (later Dragonpass) boardgame did set up a pretty even war between the Lunars and Argath and Co. with the appearance of no certain outcome.

Reportedly, any "metaplot" in the Dragon Pass region is derived from the home campaign. And highly ignorable.

QuoteI would agree that this, combined with a change in focus from publishing material to facilitate a gameable world to navel-lint gazing.

"Vinga" is the goddess' name.

I find the deeper lore interesting, but highly un-gamable with some exceptions. Knowing that gods like Shargash exist, and how their cults operate is very gamable. Descriptions of Dara Happan cities (the one with the green stone wall) is interesting and useful. Detailed analysis of the runes on the Godswall, however, is interesting (to me) but navel-gazing.

Quote from: The Butcher;928259I took "Guild Wars (the first MMO)" to mean "Guild Wars 1, as opposed to Guild Wars 2."

2005 Is the release date of Guild Wars 1.

Quote from: kosmos1214;9284932005 Is the release date of Guild Wars 1.

He means "Guild Wars (the first MMO)" should be read as "Guild Wars (the first Guild Wars, not Guild Wars II)" and not as "Guild Wars (the very first published MMO ever)".

Quote from: CRKrueger;928497He means "Guild Wars (the first MMO)" should be read as "Guild Wars (the first Guild Wars, not Guild Wars II)" and not as "Guild Wars (the very first published MMO ever)".

Then why not say guild wars one like a sane person ?

Speaking of gods - what do folks think of the following - note these 7 gods are for a "low magic" western medieval/ancient world (no cleric class), where there is no direct evidence that gods exist/existence of the gods is subject to speculation:

Argona  
Argona is the goddess of health, wealth, happiness and hope. In addition, she is venerated as a fierce protector of families, especially children, elderly and the vulnerable. She is typically depicted as a beautiful, raven haired woman with a trail of stars in lieu of legs.

Common Phrases: Argona protects. Starmaiden keep you. Four blessings upon you and yours.

Common Icons: A star or stars. A shield with a star motif.

Baal
Baal is the god of decay, suffering, disease and death. His name is uttered only at funerals or to ward off his unwanted attention. Baal is usually portrayed as a leering skull, fetid ooze or animated bones.

Common Phrases: Men are the true plague. Bones and dust, blood and rust. Baal’s Balls!

Common Icons: a skull, tombstone or ooze.

Fenrir
Fenrir is the god of skill, luck and fate. His name is invoked in times of contest, danger and blind fortune. He is most often depicted as a quicksilver wolf, a pair of dice with sixes on all sides, or a shooting star.

Common Phrases: Fenrir’s luck! The silver wolf is with ye. Fangs of fate!


Common Icons: Dire wolf. Pair of dice. An animal tooth.

Graxus
Graxus is the god of war, courage, struggle and glory. He is called upon in times of conflict and strife, either to draw his attention or deflect it. He
is most often depicted as a juggernaut of destruction; a towering half man, half iron fusing of steel and flesh.

Common Phrases: By blood or blade! Victory and death! The iron god cometh!

Common Icons: Anvil and skull. Crossed blades with a central eye.

Shennog
Shennog is the goddess of darkness, deceit and madness. She is called upon in times of treachery, despair and clandestine activity. Most descriptions of Shennog suggest a formless shadow, a broken mirror or a giant spider.

Common Phrases: The darkest corners conceal the greatest secrets. Reject the mundane and embrace revelation.

Common Icons: Black circle with a slender crescent moon. Giant spider or webs. Cracked mirror.

Soliri
Soliri is the goddess of the sun, weather, nature  and creation. She is called upon to bless harvests, and to ward off darkness or ferocious beasts. She is commonly depicted as a female faced sun, a swarm of leaves, or a giant world tree.

Common Phrases: The World Tree provides. Mankind is also a force of nature. Burn back the shadow!

Common Icons: Flaring sun, a stylized leaf or a colossal tree with great roots.

Wodon
Wodon is the god of knowledge, wisdom and justice, beseeched when seeking information, insight and truth. He or she (sex uncertain and used interchangeably) is portrayed as a giant owl, or a wizened human with two heads, one male and one female, leaning on a staff or stack of tomes.

Common Phrases: Wodon guide you. Knowledge begets power. To understand is to grow. Vengeance is a pit, justice a door.

Common Icons: A tome, dual faced coin, or a giant owl with a set of scales.

Quote from: Psikerlord;928707Speaking of gods - what do folks think of the following  
...

A nice start. Now, expand each to a page.

Quotenote these 7 gods are for a "low magic" western medieval/ancient world (no cleric class), where there is no direct evidence that gods exist/existence of the gods is subject to speculation:

I'm not sure this is relevant. How would it be different for you with immanent deities?

Quote from: Baron Opal;929042A nice start. Now, expand each to a page.



I'm not sure this is relevant. How would it be different for you with immanent deities?

A page each, arrghh! hahaha

As for the relevance of the non-obvious gods - yeah good question, maybe it isnt relevant? I had in my mind folks might want to see more gods I guess, for clerics to chose from, if they were casting divine spells/working miracles etc in the field?

Quote from: Baron Opal;929042A nice start. Now, expand each to a page.

Why?