Quote from: CRKrueger;927191In the real world, we're obviously used to even the highest titled members of religions essentially ignoring practically every tenet of that religion and getting away with it.  In an alternate fantasy reality, that doesn't seem "realistic" to me, or "mysterious" or whatever else, it seems "exactly like the real world" not fantastic at all, and a little cheap and lazy, especially if all you get is "but the gods are unknowable".

Yet another reason why Runequest was just that good. The Gloranthan Cult write ups with origin and scope for the deity, holy days, actual rules you had to follow to keep on the good side of your god and temple, and Spirits of Reprisal if you didn't were a breath of mythically fresh air.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927211In OD&D monsters can see in the dark until they are hired by player characters, at which point they lose that ability.

That shit is way too dumb for me. Almost as bad as putting a fast food restaurant (no doubt now with a walk up window or drive through) in the dungeon.

Quote from: Spinachcat;927214I rarely run RPGs with gods who aren't active in the setting. For me, I like pantheons like the Greeks where they are uber-powerful asshats and mortals have to tip toe in their dealing with them, but can actually interact with them to curry favor.

Yes, I really like the alternately propitiating and currying favor with the various childish, asshat deities of Greek myth. It's my favored alternative to Gloranthan religion.

Though I've been rereading Glen Cook's Instrumentalities of the Night, which I recently reviewed, and I like the way it handles deities and magical monsters.

Spoiler

All Gods are real. So, more or less, are their myths. But Gods are mortal...sort of.

Quote from: Baron Opal;927319

Quote from: hedgehobbit;927258I look at gods the opposite way. The Gloranthan way. The gods are the living embodiment of the will of their believers. The belief of men is what creates the gods.

It's funny that I got exactly the opposite vibe from Glorantha. But, that's why they say "YGMV".

Stafford's attachment to an extremely subjective interpretation of all material on Gloranthan deities and religion kind of ends up with hedgehobbit being right, but also maybe wrong. The level of subjectivity intentionally included in the creator's writings is one of my least favorite aspects of the setting.

Quote from: Bren;927322Stafford’s attachment to an extremely subjective interpretation of all material on Gloranthan deities and religion kind of ends up with hedgehobbit being right, but also maybe wrong. The level of subjectivity intentionally included in the creator’s writings is one of my least favorite aspects of the setting.

Yes, that was an irritating pseudo- gotcha- yet- not. I was really irritated by the Elmal (?) revelation. So, ultimately, I came to ignore it. There were three things that really drew me into Glorantha; 1- that there was a god that was worshipped by elves and humans, and the cults were 90% (but not 100%) the same, 2- there were consequences for actions in the cult, 3- trolls.

How many books are the in the Instrumentality series? I thought four, but given the ending I'm kind of expecting a new book.

I like a limited number of gods. My goto for my home brews is posted at http://sordnbord.blogspot.com/2011/05/holystone-religion.html.

The High Church (all 3 gods are part of the same church):
Sol (the Sun), Gaia (the Earth) and Luna (the Moon).

Faerie Lords:
Oberon (King of the Seelie Court), Titania (Queen of the Seelie Court), Mabb (Queen of the Unseelie Court).

Demon Cults:
Diabolus (Lord of Hell), Lilith (Queen of the Succubi), and Orcus (Master of the Undead).

Quote from: LordVreeg;927269I get what you are saying, but I love the complications my pcs get into because of the differences between how faiths see the different planars.

Your cosmology is obviously deep and very well thought out, and the Gods work differently from, lets call it the D&D Standard.

I don't have a problem with there being different religions worshipping the same god, I wholeheartedly am behind the concept of gods being larger than the dogma of the religions that worship them, and that a cleric from the church of Grazz't the Redeemer might work at cross purposes to a cleric from the church of Grazz't the Betrayer, and that a cleric could defect from the church of Grazz't the Redeemer and become anointed in the church of Grazz't the Betrayer, and Grazz't is totally fine with it.  If your cosmology is even half as detailed as the rest of your setting, then no one, obviously, can call you lazy.  You're actually putting a lot of thought in, and making decisions to work a certain way.

Quote from: Baron Opal;927319Quite alright, I don't feel called out at all. This is going to ramble a bit.

Ok, so you said you are focusing more on religions, but it sounds like your Gods do have more of a Mythic feel, a little more directly involved than the D&D standard or at least the potential exists.  Using your example of a God parking the sun over your city for a while to show displeasure is exactly what is lacking in a lot of settings, Gods doing things that have absolutely nothing to do with science or arcane magic.

My pet peeve just is that you seem to always get on forums the idea that Gods are boring, Religions are interesting, Gods making things known or acting is boring, Gods being completely unknowable and absent is interesting, etc... which in the end once you add all these up really comes down to "Any fantastical elements of Religion are boring, Religions no different from what you pick up in a history book are interesting"...which just seems odd to me since we're talking about Fantasy.  This is a sub-peeve I guess of a larger Peeve in which, ironically so, Fantasy is actually one of the most restrictive genres, with iron-clad sub-genres and people don't like it very much when you step outside the lines.  Sounds like neither of your settings meet the criteria of my Peeve.

Quote from: Baron Opal;927354Yes, that was an irritating pseudo- gotcha- yet- not. I was really irritated by the Elmal (?) revelation.

El who?

QuoteHow many books are the in the Instrumentality series? I thought four, but given the ending I'm kind of expecting a new book.

I haven't read #4 yet. And a quick search doesn't turn up an answer to whether or not there will be a book #5 in the series. I hope so.

Quote from: Bren;927322That shit is way too dumb for me. Almost as bad as putting a fast food restaurant (no doubt now with a walk up window or drive through) in the dungeon.

I know, right?  That's almost as bad as some little pissweasel playing a Balrog as a player character.

I would prefer to keep as many gods as the PC's and NPC's 'need'.  I like the idea of holy/unholy magic being powered by the faith in a concept (compassion, conviction, fury, etc.) more so than a divine 'gift' from some diety that could be interpreted a thousand different ways.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927391I know, right?  That's almost as bad as some little pissweasel playing a Balrog as a player character.

Yeah, what a precious little special snowflake asshole.

Quote from: Bren;927322Stafford's attachment to an extremely subjective interpretation of all material on Gloranthan deities and religion kind of ends up with hedgehobbit being right, but also maybe wrong. The level of subjectivity intentionally included in the creator's writings is one of my least favorite aspects of the setting.

That has always driven me crazy.  I like lots of bits of Glorantha but the "everyone is right" bit has always stuck in my craw.  Give me a little damn objectivity, please.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;927442That has always driven me crazy.  I like lots of bits of Glorantha but the "everyone is right" bit has always stuck in my craw.  Give me a little damn objectivity, please.

I did get a chuckle when Greg, after going on about trolls, Lunars, Orlanthi, moral relativism, and the like, flat out said "except the Valdeli. They're just evil. No, really. Not just evil, but Evil. Because someone has to be." That caused some mental gear-grinding... RuneCon in Chicago, maybe?

With my current game, the more that mortals petition the Gods, the more annoyed they get with you. Sorta like when you were a teenager trying to impress a girl and your little brother comes along and keeps tugging on your sleeve. After a while, you either ignore it or tell him to fuck off. Sure, you might indulge him at a later date, but if he bugs the hell out of you, you'll give him a Chinese Burn.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927391I know, right?  That's almost as bad as some little pissweasel playing a Balrog as a player character.

Well, maybe if it was a baby Balrog. An impishly cute 4' high guy with a tiny whip and sword might be amusing.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;927442That has always driven me crazy.  I like lots of bits of Glorantha but the "everyone is right" bit has always stuck in my craw.  Give me a little damn objectivity, please.

Yeah, I'm looking for help GMing a setting. All subjective, all the time doesn't help me with that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;927357Ok, so you said you are focusing more on religions, but it sounds like your Gods do have more of a Mythic feel, a little more directly involved than the D&D standard or at least the potential exists.  

My pet peeve just is that you seem to always get on forums the idea that Gods are boring, Religions are interesting, Gods making things known or acting is boring, Gods being completely unknowable and absent is interesting, etc...

I think part of this attitude comes from player discomfort in having to answer to a morally superior higher authority. Also, DM discomfort in fabricating deities that are something other than sociopathic Greek god pastiches.

I focus on religion over god because it's easier to research. Better research, and how it fits into peoples lives makes it more approachable and "interesting". That said, ultimately when characters encounter the supernatural they encounter the spirits, angels, demons, and gods of the setting. Coming up with something that resonates yet doesn't rob a player of agency is difficult.

For me, the gold standard is Mitlanyal for Tekumel and Cults of Prax for RuneQuest 2e, as that had the information and perspectives that you could pattern off of. The world of the Five Gods by Bujold (Curse of Chalion, &c.) greatly informed me on divine perspective, as did a comment by Stafford along the lines of: Power and Freedom are inversely proportional. It seems otherwise because increased Power lets you take greater advantage of the Freedom you have. It is only with the higher levels of power that your obligations begin to constrain your Freedom. Argrath, Jar-Eel, and Harrek are examples of this.

That way, things like the sun stopping over the Imperial Capital when the Emperor crossed the line is noteworthy, dramatic, and frightening. People don't think Lord Brisingr is being petulant, but rather thoughts go toward "Emperor Sadric, what did you do?" PCs, being the creatures that they are, have a much higher chance of crossing that line than random NPCs.

Quote from: BrenI haven't read #4 yet. And a quick search doesn't turn up an answer to whether or not there will be a book #5 in the series. I hope so.

I'll keep an eye on your blog. I'm curious about your thoughts on the series.

Quote from: One Horse Town;927454With my current game, the more that mortals petition the Gods, the more annoyed they get with you. Sorta like when you were a teenager trying to impress a girl and your little brother comes along and keeps tugging on your sleeve. After a while, you either ignore it or tell him to fuck off. Sure, you might indulge him at a later date, but if he bugs the hell out of you, you'll give him a Chinese Burn.

This is the sort of approach that works for me in many cases. It very much depends on the setting and the nature of the deities in question but I like gods a bit petty and not terribly concerned with individual humans. Even a goddess of compassion is still a goddess and going to view humanity through that lens. It doesn't always have to be like having 18 Jehovah's in a setting, with very intense interest in the moral happenings of their thousands or millions of worshippers. Another approach is to just have them focused on ritual and rite. The gods don't really give a damn what you believe or how you feel about them. They just want you perform rites at the appointed time.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;927471Another approach is to just have them focused on ritual and rite. The gods don't really give a damn what you believe or how you feel about them. They just want you perform rites at the appointed time.

Or maybe they aren't even limited omniscient and they don't know how you feel, only what they see you do or hear you say. And maybe they don't even see and hear everything, just the stuff that they pay attention to or that their attention is attracted to, like say by someone calling their name, singing their praises, offering a sacrifice, etc.