Quote from: Baron Opal;926854I find religions to be more interesting than gods, as religions are what inform society the most.

See here, this is making one very gigantic assumption...and not calling out Opal, it's one nearly everyone makes...that how human society interacts with religion isn't going to change if you have Gods who might actually manifest as 900ft tall avatars to destroy a temple or city who strays or literal blue bolts fall from the sky.

The default fantasy paradigm is that gods grant spell power to clerics, but in all other ways, including interacting with or caring about the activities of said clerics using their power - all the gods are absentee landlords or act in subtle "mysterious ways" easily explained by a hundred other things.  

Very few fantasy settings actually view things from the rich history of myth, where gods were involved.  Instead, it's all this D&D-specific paradigm of real-world religions - where "cleric" may as well be just another type of arcane caster with a different spellbook.

That's what I find boring, fantasy that is universally mundane in one of it's key main aspects.

I have a standard stable I port from campaign to campaign, which consists of about 10 deities, with 3-5 of them exerting the most influence, due to agenda (good/evil, war, pestilence and so on). Since "man makes god" so often in real life, it's really the characters (PCs and NPCs alike) who shoehorn their goals into what they believe is their god's agenda. You know, decide you know how the god works, then act like what you did was what they wanted (though clerics do need to follow their tennants, lest they be punished).

+1 on clerics being casters with a different book, in systems where the mechanics are similar. Once we segue into our next system (Freebooters), the class works differently from casters, so there should be sufficient differentiation, making priests a different, and more interesting, animal.

Quote from: CRKrueger;927122See here, this is making one very gigantic assumption...and not calling out Opal, it's one nearly everyone makes...that how human society interacts with religion isn't going to change if you have Gods who might actually manifest as 900ft tall avatars to destroy a temple or city who strays or literal blue bolts fall from the sky.

The default fantasy paradigm is that gods grant spell power to clerics, but in all other ways, including interacting with or caring about the activities of said clerics using their power - all the gods are absentee landlords or act in subtle "mysterious ways" easily explained by a hundred other things.  

Very few fantasy settings actually view things from the rich history of myth, where gods were involved.  Instead, it's all this D&D-specific paradigm of real-world religions - where "cleric" may as well be just another type of arcane caster with a different spellbook.

That's what I find boring, fantasy that is universally mundane in one of it's key main aspects.

No one is doing it wrong.  But my players enjoy mystery and the mysterious, they enjoy cults and avatars, augeries and especially old prophecy. I consider it a triumph when my PCs can argue about the games religions IC.  I, and they, enjoy the unknowability, and the fact that these ancient, planar beings are deeper and stranger than they can understand.

2-1000000+. It all depends on the setting flavor I am going for.

Though I do have a blind spot from about 5 to 20. There are good campaign themes to be had for a very short list (2-4) deities, but once you broach 5, you might as well ratchet it up to at least 20 to fulfill the more traditional fantasy utility needs.

Quote from: LordVreeg;927184No one is doing it wrong.  But my players enjoy mystery and the mysterious, they enjoy cults and avatars, augeries and especially old prophecy. I consider it a triumph when my PCs can argue about the games religions IC.  I, and they, enjoy the unknowability, and the fact that these ancient, planar beings are deeper and stranger than they can understand.

Yeah...but...and not saying your world has this, too often that "unknowability" leads to something along the lines of Extreme.Canon.Violations that simply go unanswered.  Like a High Priest of a Goddess of Family, Home, Marriage, Childbirth, whatever, being found out to have been an adulterer and pedophile over the last 20 years while still being an active cleric and using the god's powers.  

In the real world, we're obviously used to even the highest titled members of religions essentially ignoring practically every tenet of that religion and getting away with it.  In an alternate fantasy reality, that doesn't seem "realistic" to me, or "mysterious" or whatever else, it seems "exactly like the real world" not fantastic at all, and a little cheap and lazy, especially if all you get is "but the gods are unknowable".

Now, obviously, some people run a campaign with a more complex cosmology, and there's actually a very good reason why you can still be a serial killer as well as a fully functioning priest of the God of Pacifism.

No one's doing it wrong, certainly, but at the same time, could there be a god who gave a shit what its high priests were doing in its name, with its granted powers, oh...once?

Yeah this is kind of a Pet Peeve.

I think a good reason not to do that isnit takes agency away from the players.  

If the gods are active then all mortals end up their pawns.  Talk about rail road.

In OD&D monsters can see in the dark until they are hired by player characters, at which point they lose that ability.

If I'm not going to worry about that,* I'm not going to worry about abstruse elements of cosmology.  It's a game.


*I like it because it makes the game more challenging.  However, it makes fuckall sense trying to "emulate" anything.

I rarely run RPGs with gods who aren't active in the setting. For me, I like pantheons like the Greeks where they are uber-powerful asshats and mortals have to tip toe in their dealing with them, but can actually interact with them to curry favor.

In my games, if you are a cleric, you have volunteered to be a tool of your god in exchange for unearned power. The mage, yeah, he had to study really hard. The cleric, not so much. The cleric (like a warlock) made a pact for their allegiance and their soul and in exchange the god gives them spells and powers. But that god expects their will be made manifest through the cleric's deeds.

And when the god asks the cleric to jump, the only correct answer is "how high?"

When Zeus says "SHIT" you better say "Creamy or chunky?"

Quote from: Headless;927204I think a good reason not to do that isnit takes agency away from the players.  

If the gods are active then all mortals end up their pawns.  Talk about rail road.

Yeah I personally prefer no actual gods, or no active gods. In terms of numbers, I like something like 3-7, not more than that. I dont mind "there are unnamed gods/spirits for every tree, stone etc etc though.

In most of my games, gods are psychic energy vampires who operate on a multiversal scale, fragmented across several worlds, with an agenda that mostly focuses on generating their preferred flavor(s) of emotional resonance.

Because their vast power can annihilate entire civilizations when brought to bear against each other, and because sentient life is relatively scarce across the multiverse, most inhabited planets host a population of 1d100 gods of varying power who agree to a non-intervention concordat of some source, in the interest of preserving their food source — while still leaving them free to further said agendas using mortal agents.

Quote from: jeff37923;926571The number of gods and the pantheon that they represent is part of what defines a campaign setting, so I have to say that it depends on what I am aiming for in the setting.

Pretty much this.

If I'm running a Gaulish campaign (or one based off the Gauls) then having hundreds, maybe thousands of Gods (they had one for just about EVERYTHING) would fit.

But if I'm running something a little more unified, then like Guild Wars (the first MMO) I'd have maybe five, with their own defined portfolios.

It depends on the setting, just like Jeff states.

Quote from: CRKrueger;927122See here, this is making one very gigantic assumption...and not calling out Opal, it's one nearly everyone makes...that how human society interacts with religion isn't going to change if you have Gods who might actually manifest as 900ft tall avatars to destroy a temple or city who strays or literal blue bolts fall from the sky.

The default fantasy paradigm is that gods grant spell power to clerics, but in all other ways, including interacting with or caring about the activities of said clerics using their power - all the gods are absentee landlords or act in subtle "mysterious ways" easily explained by a hundred other things.  

Very few fantasy settings actually view things from the rich history of myth, where gods were involved.  Instead, it's all this D&D-specific paradigm of real-world religions - where "cleric" may as well be just another type of arcane caster with a different spellbook.

That's what I find boring, fantasy that is universally mundane in one of it's key main aspects.

And I need to reiterate this post because this is an important detail.  When you have a setting in which the Gods manifest in more than just bamming some dude with magic juice and that's all they do, there are assumptions and details that change how people interact with their religions.  Faith and belief is no longer a factor, it's fact.  If you go against the tenets of the God you claim to follow, there WILL be repercussions.  Maybe nothing blatant, but there will be...

Paladins in my Forgotten Realms campaigns tend to be believed when they state they are Paladins and the bastard they just smote into their next life is an Evil creature, because if they lie, then whatever God they follow will strip them of their abilities and trying to lie about serving a God will often get proven relatively quickly, by how the Gods in that setting work.

But in Ebberon, where there's less 'proof' and more belief, and the Gods haven't been proven, that's a whole new dynamic to the entire religion and belief.  One that can mirror the real world to a certain degree.

Quote from: The Butcher;927226In most of my games, gods are psychic energy vampires who operate on a multiversal scale, fragmented across several worlds, with an agenda that mostly focuses on generating their preferred flavor(s) of emotional resonance.

I look at gods the opposite way. The Gloranthan way. The gods are the living embodiment of the will of their believers. The belief of men is what creates the gods. The gods did what their believers believe they did and act how the believer think they act. A god derives his entire being from this belief power. When the last believer is kill or converted, the god fades away. But god doesn't die, instead the very fabric of the universe shifts so that this god never even existed at all.

Conflict between pantheons are not a battle of philosophies, but an all out war of extermination; followers are killed and temples destroyed all to give power to a new god who, in turn, gives his power to his followers.

Quote from: CRKrueger;927191Yeah...but...and not saying your world has this, too often that "unknowability" leads to something along the lines of Extreme.Canon.Violations that simply go unanswered.  Like a High Priest of a Goddess of Family, Home, Marriage, Childbirth, whatever, being found out to have been an adulterer and pedophile over the last 20 years while still being an active cleric and using the god's powers.  

In the real world, we're obviously used to even the highest titled members of religions essentially ignoring practically every tenet of that religion and getting away with it.  In an alternate fantasy reality, that doesn't seem "realistic" to me, or "mysterious" or whatever else, it seems "exactly like the real world" not fantastic at all, and a little cheap and lazy, especially if all you get is "but the gods are unknowable".

Now, obviously, some people run a campaign with a more complex cosmology, and there's actually a very good reason why you can still be a serial killer as well as a fully functioning priest of the God of Pacifism.

No one's doing it wrong, certainly, but at the same time, could there be a god who gave a shit what its high priests were doing in its name, with its granted powers, oh...once?

Yeah this is kind of a Pet Peeve.

Well, you, I'll talk to.
And we all have our pet peeves.

First of all, by and large, 95% of my games are played in a setting where the gods don't give spells.  They teach them differently, but the Voidborne sources of power are the same.  Everyone's games are different, but to your point, some of the interplay and politicing is different with alignment and priests of the Good God being all goody.  

But, even faith and religion are set up differently.  I do play a game where I give XP for roleplay at the end of every session, and how the pc shows their interaction with the religion of the world is a large part of it.
"Worship is an essential part of the puzzle of Celtricia.  Inhabitants of this "World of Factions" do not just go through the motions of worship.  The Churches and temples are intertwined with the daily life in every town or city.  So the relationship a person has with the church or churches they belong to says much about their personality.
Also, the pantheon of the Celtrician Planars is huge and varied, and both the pantheon and the worship is polytheistic. The People of Celtricia are expected and encouraged to go to different churches, and while there still is competition for worship, the 'Pact Veritus'  that was put together by High Priestess Manwessa holds true in almost of the Celtrician continent"
From here.

So, all pc, not just the priest and cleric types, deal with religion constantly.  In the Collegium Game, one of the Orders is called "The Aid of Faith", and it is literally made up of priests who are studying the collegium's form of teaching magic (pulling from void sources).  

And from the last session of that game...
Les'z: "very dank and Klaxik, don't you think?"
Pholian Mar: "What in the Eighth Station is "dank" "?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Jobs..." Hopefully, no visits with Orcus"
Les'z: ooc see what?
Durhum: I mean, Pholian and myself have already died.
Doesn't seem to stick very well.
------------------------------------------------------------------
And later,

"Once each for a Goesi." I look at Jobs "You've mentioned you are a priest, right?:
LordVreeg (GM): Jobs.."Aye, from the Church of Grazz't the Redeemer"
Pholian Mar: "Can you turn undead?"
Durhum turns to look at Jobs, shocked
Durhum: You're from the Church of the Betrayer?
Pholian Mar: "He just said he's from a church of Redeemer, not Grazz't the Betrayer, Durhum"
LordVreeg (GM): Jobs.." The redeemer. And the redeemed"
Durhum: A fine line.
Pholian Mar: "Argh damn"

Note the last exchange.  My PCs have been steeped enough, because they use the commentary and knowledge as part of roleplay, they know the different viewpoints they'd have in the religions.  I get what you are saying, but I love the complications my pcs get into because of the differences between how faiths see the different planars.

Quote from: CRKrueger;927122See here, this is making one very gigantic assumption...and not calling out Opal, it's one nearly everyone makes...that how human society interacts with religion isn't going to change if you have Gods who might actually manifest as 900ft tall avatars to destroy a temple or city who strays or literal blue bolts fall from the sky.

Quite alright, I don't feel called out at all. This is going to ramble a bit.

My preferring religions over gods has little to do with divine immanence. Rather, I prefer a religion of the Seven Patrons rather than the faiths of seven gods. Thinking about how the gods interact among themselves informs me how the players might interact with the temple and the priests. Knowing that Bahamut the Steadfast captured the North Wind from Red-eyed Kirigal the Stormrider, that might inspire my players when they want or find a rope of five winds.

As to dealing with an angry god, they're much like a force of nature with a personality. Sacrifices need to be made before voyages, prayers and tithes made to temples. My clerics do have a good bit of leeway as far as heresy goes. But, that's because Ishtar Midwife of the Inundation is pretty busy. All of those babies aren't going to birth themselves, you know. But, if someone stops doing those comforting rituals in the temple, She just might swing by to find out why. Along with a legion of her undine daughters. (There's always a sanctified mop behind the altar.)

I figure the bigger the god, the busier the god, and the harder it is to get their attention. But when you do, it had best be for the right reasons. Otherwise, Brisingr the Traveller is going to park his sun right over your city and have a long, hot chat.

Now, for an example of how people in my campaign deal with an angry demi-god, I have a young player who is making the rounds to the city stated to fight the Ivory King with his crown of Night. He's figured out that he needs about 5000 troops to bash his way through to the city, and he'll need a sword of a great hero to even scratch it. He's found the sword, and gotten about 2k troops pledged. He's quite the little coalition builder.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;927258I look at gods the opposite way. The Gloranthan way. The gods are the living embodiment of the will of their believers. The belief of men is what creates the gods.

It's funny that I got exactly the opposite vibe from Glorantha. But, that's why they say "YGMV".