Quote from: SHARK on October 30, 2021, 08:09:10 AM
All the crying about 5E and players not being killable...heh. I don't think they are reading thoroughly enough, and applying the rules like a good, ruthless DM should.

Absolutely. Just need a DM with balls (or lady balls) big enough to do it. As Mistwell pointed out, the mechanics are there.

Eight days ago a couple of vampire spawns took out my character as well as my daughter's. Killed them dead without remorse. The DM, my wife, said it wouldn't make any sense for them not to given nobody else in the fight was a threat at the time.

But as much as I would like to brag on her for having the lady balls to do it, I have to brag on myself for marrying so well. I was super proud of myself as I was rolling up my new character. Daughter took it like a champ too.

One thing PF2 (yea I know) got right was fixing the wack-a-mole syndrome that you have in 5e.

Any time you lose the dying condition, you become wounded 1 and if you already had the wounded condition, your wounded condition increases by 1.   If you gain the dying condition while wounded it increases your dying condition by your wounded value.  The wounded condition ends if you are restored to full HP AND rest for 10 minutes OR if someone successfully treats you with Treat Wounds (which takes 10 minutes).

My son plays 5e and suggested this change (adding a wound system) and it has added teeth to 5e's dying system and no longer do the healers wait to heal someone when they downed.

I remember the first time my players ran across the BBEG right hand man that had spells that gave wounds.   They didn't want anything to do with that guy

5e's version of Tomb of Annihilation, along with the "No rezzes,  no revives, no refunds", very clearly suggests bumping up the death save DCs, either straight to 15, or in other ways I don't remember clearly.  I think it was start at 10 and bump it up by 1 every time you had to roll?

Quote from: DM_Curt on October 30, 2021, 12:56:41 PM
5e's version of Tomb of Annihilation, along with the "No rezzes,  no revives, no refunds", very clearly suggests bumping up the death save DCs, either straight to 15, or in other ways I don't remember clearly.  I think it was start at 10 and bump it up by 1 every time you had to roll?

Yeah, that was a really cool way that module handled death.

Speaking of PF2 and wounds, one of the pleasureable things of 5e D&D is they leave the water there for GM horses but don't force GMs to drink. The Exhaustion table is one of those let it lie and let others figure it out. It is a brutal table that, if tacked on to every single downing to 0HP,  quickly cuts whack-a-mole antics dead.

There is also Instant Death core rule. If single source of damage is equal to or greater than Current HP + HP Maximum the character dies. So a squishy with low CON is living dangerously for a very long time. A single high falling drop or dragon attack can wipe out many low levels outright if it connects, no Death Throws mini-game.

Do I prefer 5e to my beloved TSR D&D? No. But it is not banished from my sight like 3e or 4e.

I don't know. I never made it without biting.

All fair points.
I see a lot tables abusing the death system. I get that a minority may have had a different experience, but from what I have seen, the majority have not caught on.

5e is definitely "easy mode" for the players.  Not so much for the DM who has to challenge these superheroic characters. 

Back in days of AD&D, everybody had to wrap their heads arou d the rules, which were usually hard to interpret, and there were a lot of them.  Now only the DM has to achieve system mastery.  And if you don't know the rules, or only read the cursory instructions, or don't take the time to sit down and design a challenge, the players walk all over your game.  It doesn't help that the published adventures are poorly written.  But it is hard to design a game for characters if those characters could be ANYTHING. Any race or class.

But if you sit down and read the rules, read how combat works, how dying works, how a particular spell works, what consitions do, you can put your foot down and say "No!" when the Cleric casts Healing Word on a guy who fell 100' down a cliff, into a spiked pit with 3 dragons hovering over him. Because you know that that spell only has a range of 30 feet.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on October 30, 2021, 11:22:03 PM
Back in days of AD&D, everybody had to wrap their heads arou d the rules, which were usually hard to interpret, and there were a lot of them.  Now only the DM has to achieve system mastery.

I don't think anything has changed there. That is, I disagree that AD&D players need "system mastery" more than 5e players. Case in point is my most recent campaign, where ten of the 11 players were new to RPGs. I ran 1e AD&D, and none of them even owned the rulebooks (although a few of them did download OSRIC PDFs). I was the only one at the table with a handle on the rules, but it didn't matter. They told me what they wanted to do, I ran the game, and it all worked out great. Everyone was having a blast until COVID put a stop to that campaign.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on October 30, 2021, 11:22:03 PM


But if you sit down and read the rules, read how combat works, how dying works, how a particular spell works, what consitions do, you can put your foot down and say "No!" when the Cleric casts Healing Word on a guy who fell 100' down a cliff, into a spiked pit with 3 dragons hovering over him. Because you know that that spell only has a range of 30 feet.

"When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum."

5e certainly does have the rules for fst-killing someone down because of 0 hp. However, the game then strongly pushes the DM not to do it. In effect, doing so is suggested to be playing the game wrong. I have to wonder how any of the monsters got used to dropping people to 0 hp then "moving on to another combatant" only to see the downed enemy get back up time and again thanks to low-level healing magic.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 31, 2021, 02:31:48 PM
5e certainly does have the rules for fst-killing someone down because of 0 hp. However, the game then strongly pushes the DM not to do it. In effect, doing so is suggested to be playing the game wrong. I have to wonder how any of the monsters got used to dropping people to 0 hp then "moving on to another combatant" only to see the downed enemy get back up time and again thanks to low-level healing magic.

In my games, enemy healers usually have Healing Word, and or Healing Spirit memorized.  "What's good for the goose..." etc.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on October 31, 2021, 02:41:24 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 31, 2021, 02:31:48 PM
5e certainly does have the rules for fst-killing someone down because of 0 hp. However, the game then strongly pushes the DM not to do it. In effect, doing so is suggested to be playing the game wrong. I have to wonder how any of the monsters got used to dropping people to 0 hp then "moving on to another combatant" only to see the downed enemy get back up time and again thanks to low-level healing magic.

In my games, enemy healers usually have Healing Word, and or Healing Spirit memorized.  "What's good for the goose..." etc.

Yeah, I've done that on occasion too. It helps to balance the sides somewhat, but I still don't believe it made for a good gaming experience (which is why I no longer play 5e).

For the most part, I find the monsters and combat effects in 5E to be nerfed compared to older editions, but one spot where they can definitely get you is the Zombie rebounding to 1 HP based on a save and/or whether or not they suffered any radiant damage that round. Still, there is far too much stuff in 5E, in my opinion, that fixes on a long rest or you can save every round to end the condition.

Still, you can't beat 2E monsters for lethality. Medusa or Basilisk? Save or die, essentially.
Ghost? Fail a save, age 4 decades on the spot, potentially, and pass a system shock roll or ragdoll.
Wight / Wraith / Vampire: LEVEL DRAIN! None of this losing HP that you regain after a long rest. 2E Strahd will F you UP!
An opponent casts Charm Person on you and you fail to save? Guess what, they own you for DAYS, maybe even WEEKS!

In a 2E game, until you are truly powerful yourself, those are encounters you run from and/or avoid, because even if you win, you may come away so depleted that the rest of the adventures just became un-survivable.

There is a lot of stuff to love about 5E, but the HP bloat all-around, overpowered bonuses for ability scores, and nerfed effects make for boring, over-extended, non-consequential combats, I think. I'm currently playing in both 2E and 5E campaigns, and the former is definitely more white knuckle, challenging, and fun.

My experience with 5e is that you need to have massive amounts of spike damage or else A LOT of deadly encounters in a single day with only short rests in order to really challenge a well constructed party in Tier 2 (I haven't played/run past level 10-11 yet).