Something that doesnt come up often but one I think can be very important in a campaign is PC literacy. Mostly seen , if ever, in Fantasy and Post-Apoc settings. The ability to read and write can be very important. In a fantasy setting it is usually assumed a wizard character at least can read and write. Though in BX D&D that was not necessarily the case as you could roll up a PC with a 3 INT who can neither read nor speak well. "Ogg make Fire!" Characters up to INT 5 were illiterate.
So in a fantasy setting the ability to read can be very important. And going by BXs guidelines a fair chunk of the average populace can read and write at least common. But sometimes you need someone who can read dwarven when you dont have a dwarf on hand. Or some other odd language. Or read at all for that matter. This is something I feel 5e D&D could make use of more.
Post apoc settings can be much the same. Who can read? Who cant?
Which brings us to the question at hand. How literate, or not, do you play your characters? Do you just assume they can read or do you assume they cant? How important, or not, has the ability to read been in the campaigns you've played in or DMed?
I tend to play literate PCs and have sometimes been the only PC in the group able to read at all. Other times theres been one or two others like a cleric or thief in the group that could. I play a PC in two Post-apoc games that cant read and look to others to handle that stuff. Other times I have again been the only one in the group who can read.
As a DM I like to play up this element at times as it adds a bit of lost history or mystery to the setting. Or can be a background element such as those in charge try to keep the populace illiterate as a form of control. Or its just not caught on yet.
Reading isn't very hard (I mean, children who can barely walk can do it), so IMHO, you need to explain why people would be illiterate. Is the written language super complex? Is there a monopoly on learning?
Runequest and games derived from it include reading/writing as a skill. So it shows up in those games.
Quote from: JeremyR;1027628Reading isn't very hard (I mean, children who can barely walk can do it), so IMHO, you need to explain why people would be illiterate. Is the written language super complex? Is there a monopoly on learning?
So why was only 12% of the world literate in 1820?
https://ourworldindata.org/literacy
I'd say that monopoly on learning, and lack of the free time to learn, kind of covers much of it. It's not like farmers and factory workers in 1820 needed to read and write to be able to farm or work.
Depends on how widespread access to learning is, if the common jobs require reading or not.
I tend to use a lot of written information and clues in my adventures - signs, letters etc.
If I dont want the PC´s to be able to read it right away, I just say it´s in an unknown language.
In BRP I let all PC´s read and write, but the skill % affects their ability to learn new spells and skills from books.
I´ve been experimenting a lot with the training and experience-rules (BRP), so this might change.
Depends on the setting. If I want literacy to be common, you get read/write at INT 8. If I want it uncommon, you get it at INT 13. Mages and Clerics get it with their class, but how truly literate they may be depends on their INT.
Depends on setting, and setting locale. Literacy is not a static function across language. Some languages are harder to learn in their scripts and writing conventions than others. Further, there's degrees of reading and writing fluency, just as there is degrees of language learning.
That said, its lack is not that great a barrier to communication or security as one would think. Non-literate societies had a plethora of ways to securely communicate information across great distances and times. It is merely a subject matter that is often overlooked by us because we've grown up adapting to a highly literate society.
All in all, if it becomes a disruptive element in my game where my players are struggling to adapt, I'll fluff it into a manner they can cope with, and explain that's what they are doing in-character. However I do like it if they try. I like sprinkling a bit of the everyday implications just to retain that alien atmosphere. It feels immersive to me, as GM and player, and I like trying to retain that.
In my current 5e edition game, it depends on your choice of Background. In my upcoming Birthright game, you'll need to buy literacy with a proficiency slot, unless you're a noble. In my upcoming Ravenloft game, it's assumed you are literate unless you come up with a backstory that precludes it. So I guess the answer is, depends on the setting and how class/education works in that setting.
9+ Intelligence means literacy, others can learn to write in 20 minus Intelligence weeks (the rate it takes to learn a language in my campaign) if they have access to a teacher. This level is for player characters, NPC literacy depends on their job.
When I arranged a big fantasy larp (600 people over 4 days) I designed two new alphabets for Law and Chaos and only literate characters got the cipher to learn. Since learning them fluently took about an hour of practice even if 50% of the characters were literate on paper in practice most players (and co-hosts) could barely read or usually only one of the alphabets. They were distinct enough that even an illiterate player could see which was which (Law was based on hieroglyphs with even blocky shapes, Chaos all curves and dots). People actually sought out scribes in game because reading long or subtle texts or writing something legible was difficult, some people even played writing teachers and taught people to read and write in game.
I would have that literacy should be a function of background, not Intelligence.
So someone of noble background will be literate even at Int 8, while a barbarian may be illiterate even at Int 18.
My first or second session of TFT. 1975 or so.
I was playing a fighter. We were playing with 38 point characters. I rolled a 15 to hit, and one of the other fighters said "You hit."
I said, "No, I miss."
"Huh? Dex 15 means you hit. 38 points, STR 15, DEX 15, IQ 8. That's the way you build a fighter."
"I don't have a DEX of 15, I have a DEX of 14. I put a point into IQ so I could be literate."
"Huh? Why would you do that?"
"Because a gentleman should be well-read."
Everybody else looked at me like I had lobsters crawling out of my ears.
I agree, reading and writing should be a factor of background, but perhaps modified by INT or WIS.
Someone can be literate and be a poor reader (ie poor vocabulary). A high INT would indicate a higher / richer vocabulary.
Someone can be literate and a lousy writer (bad understanding of audience). A high WIS would indicate a better writer.
Reading and writing are not that simple. Anyone can collect and remember a handful of symbols, but sometimes stringing those symbols together make something new that are entirely out of context with someone's experience. Or you get symbols that are only readily available to certain classes of people.
Quote from: Sailing Scavenger;1027677When I arranged a big fantasy larp (600 people over 4 days) I designed two new alphabets for Law and Chaos and only literate characters got the cipher to learn.
THAT sounds awesome!!!
Quote from: jhkim;1027699I would have that literacy should be a function of background, not Intelligence.
So someone of noble background will be literate even at Int 8, while a barbarian may be illiterate even at Int 18.
Agreed...in theory.
As I don't use skills in my OD&D, I do expand INT to function as IQ + Education. You can choose to play your INT 8 character as street smart, cunning, but unlearned, or you can be unimaginative dolt whose parents wasted their silver sending you to sages as a child.
The system I've been developing makes language and literacy into a skill check with target numbers based on familiarity with the language or dialect and complexity of subject matter. You can always "take 10" on these checks and successful checks will slowly reduce the target number of non-fluent languages/dialects until you reach fluency. Failure imposes the margin of failure on any social-related checks you make using that language.
Basic communication (buying, selling, which direction is X?) in a fluent language dialect is TN 0. Regional dialects are TN 5, unfamiliar dialects are TN 10, common foreign languages are TN 15, unfamilar foreign languages are TN 20.
Normal communication increases the TN by 5, while complex technical and region-specific idioms increase it by 10. Reading or writing something increases the TN by 5 more.
In practical terms this means that the 'slow' characters (those with a penalty to their intellect) can have normal conversations and read basic signs in fluent languages without needing to make a check and can engage in basic trade with folks from a hundred miles away where they speak Riverlands Imperial instead of Blackspire Imperial, but they'd need to roll to get the full gist of anything more complex or foreign.
Average folks can generally hit the TNs to discuss complex subjects and write about normal ones in any language they become fluent in.
Those with the appropriate training have been exposed to enough foreign language that they can pick up the basics of common foreign languages they aren't yet fluent in and write about complex subjects in fluent tongues.
One of the things that I found really interesting in researching for my campaign world was the way Latin broke up into the various Romance languages and how the drift in local isolated communities lead to dialects of the same language being almost unintelligible to speakers of the same language from the other side of the country (while those same folks spoke almost the same tongue as the foreigners just over the border but who supposedly spoke a different language).
The language rules are intended to emulate that feel as speakers of someone's native tongue give way to familiar dialects of 50 miles away to unfamilar dialects from a hundred miles away to familar foreign tongues of a couple hundred miles away to truly foreign tongues from distant lands you may not have even heard of before.
It also avoided nonsense like "you can only learn a language by leveling up, even if you live among a people for years without adventuring." All but the dimmest bulbs can eventually make a successful TN 20 check for basic communication in a totally foreign language and start the process of lowering the TN until they gain fluency (it might take them a month to get that first success at one check per day, but as the TN drops with additional successes the process will speed up quickly).
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1027708My first or second session of TFT. 1975 or so.
I was playing a fighter. We were playing with 38 point characters. I rolled a 15 to hit, and one of the other fighters said "You hit."
I said, "No, I miss."
"Huh? Dex 15 means you hit. 38 points, STR 15, DEX 15, IQ 8. That's the way you build a fighter."
"I don't have a DEX of 15, I have a DEX of 14. I put a point into IQ so I could be literate."
"Huh? Why would you do that?"
"Because a gentleman should be well-read."
Everybody else looked at me like I had lobsters crawling out of my ears.
Did you then pinch them to death with your claws though? You could sell the plot to a movie producer. "I was a Teenage Lobster"
I got fairly good at reading Dethek in the SSI Forgotten Realms games as they used it for the copy protection and some secret messages.
This from Pool of Radiance. Dwarven and Elven shown.
(https://classicreload.com/sites/default/files/dethek-espruar-roman.gif)
Quote from: Omega;1027740I got fairly good at reading Dethek in the SSI Forgotten Realms games as they used it for the copy protection and some secret messages.
This from Pool of Radiance. Dwarven and Elven shown.
(https://classicreload.com/sites/default/files/dethek-espruar-roman.gif)
I taught a few classmates these in high school and we'd use them to write notes in class so nobody else could read them. I had totally forgotten about that until your post!
In all the games I tend to GM, literacy and language skills are explicit abilities, which are determined during character generation (and might be possible to learn during play with enough study time and resources). Wizards aren't always literate but it tends to be very useful for them to be. In most of my fantasy ancient/medieval settings, many people are illiterate, but players who get the chance often like to have their PCs be literate.
Quote from: jhkim;1027699I would have that literacy should be a function of background, not Intelligence.
So someone of noble background will be literate even at Int 8, while a barbarian may be illiterate even at Int 18.
I'd agree with this, to a point. Exposure matters.
That said, some scripts & conventions are harder than others, historically. Also native tongue language group to target language language group may brings its own challenges, too. It's a big subject and not worth all that much to hyper-detail... but that's also my opinion on typical gamer fetishes like martial arts, guns, and polearms.
Hero System's Justice Inc. supplement included a nice similarity chart for real world languages that depicted the familiarity of a new language based on the degree of similarity to a known language, e.g. comparing Spanish to Italian. I used the chart to adjust the point cost for picking languages during character creation and learning them afterwards in Call of Cthulhu. A guy named Franklin W. Cain created his house rules (http://fcain.tripod.com/h5skills/language.html) corrected version of the Hero chart that looks like this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2283[/ATTACH]
Source: http://fcain.tripod.com/h5skills/language_chart.png
In Lion & Dragon, Clerics and Magisters are automatically literate, while other classes may or may not be.
Quote from: Bren;1027775A guy named Franklin W. Cain created his house rules (http://fcain.tripod.com/h5skills/language.html) corrected version of the Hero chart that looks like this:
(http://fcain.tripod.com/h5skills/language_chart.png)
er...
So the language is "Image Hosted By Tripod"? Kinda like "I am Groot" or "PikaPika" or "What"... :D
Quote from: Omega;1027936er...
So the language is "Image Hosted By Tripod"? Kinda like "I am Groot" or "PikaPika" or "What"... :D
Is there a problem with the image?
Yes, all its showing to me is a Image Hosted By Tripod banner. Even when click on the link.
Quote from: Omega;1028101Yes, all its showing to me is a Image Hosted By Tripod banner. Even when click on the link.
Sorry. What about now?
Found it by using the link to the thread itself. The image link fails every time. Tripod can be a bit stringent in its "dont link to us" policy.
It's been ages since I've seen a tripod notice.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1028658It's been ages since I've seen a tripod notice.
Good times. Last time I saw one of those, I wasn't banned TBP.
I love languages, and I like it when games use dialects instead of making sure everyone can speak a common tongue. I understand why, but then very few games allow you to pick them up 'organically', requiring you spend a resource.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1028675I understand why, but then very few games allow you to pick them up 'organically', requiring you spend a resource.
But doesn't that make sense? You expend a great deal of effort to learn a language, even 'organically'.
Quote from: Omega;1027617Something that doesnt come up often but one I think can be very important in a campaign is PC literacy. Mostly seen , if ever, in Fantasy and Post-Apoc settings. The ability to read and write can be very important. In a fantasy setting it is usually assumed a wizard character at least can read and write. Though in BX D&D that was not necessarily the case as you could roll up a PC with a 3 INT who can neither read nor speak well. "Ogg make Fire!" Characters up to INT 5 were illiterate.
So in a fantasy setting the ability to read can be very important. And going by BXs guidelines a fair chunk of the average populace can read and write at least common. But sometimes you need someone who can read dwarven when you dont have a dwarf on hand. Or some other odd language. Or read at all for that matter. This is something I feel 5e D&D could make use of more.
Post apoc settings can be much the same. Who can read? Who cant?
Which brings us to the question at hand. How literate, or not, do you play your characters? Do you just assume they can read or do you assume they cant? How important, or not, has the ability to read been in the campaigns you've played in or DMed?
I tend to play literate PCs and have sometimes been the only PC in the group able to read at all. Other times theres been one or two others like a cleric or thief in the group that could. I play a PC in two Post-apoc games that cant read and look to others to handle that stuff. Other times I have again been the only one in the group who can read.
As a DM I like to play up this element at times as it adds a bit of lost history or mystery to the setting. Or can be a background element such as those in charge try to keep the populace illiterate as a form of control. Or its just not caught on yet.
It depends on the genre, setting, and character background.
My Traveller character Wan Guiren ended up chargen with EDU=F, which is the maximum any human can get. Read? He basically knows the basics of all sciences that don't require specific skill. And he's better than some professionals as soon as he gets a basic understanding of the matter:)!
OTOH, when playing a Pendragon knight, he might well be unable to read and write, if he's going for martial skill above all.
Quote from: JeremyR;1027628Reading isn't very hard (I mean, children who can barely walk can do it), so IMHO, you need to explain why people would be illiterate. Is the written language super complex? Is there a monopoly on learning?
The existence of the scribe profession and basically a big chunk of medieval history are proof to the opposite;).
Quote from: Lynn;1028812But doesn't that make sense? You expend a great deal of effort to learn a language, even 'organically'.
It depends on the game system. For example D&D, you could spend years in a country, learning its language and culture, but if you don't adventure for XP and spend the advancement (assuming that version of the system allows it) you never get the new language. In games, it's mostly flavour anyway, which is why most fantasy games default to a 'Common' tongue, despite how a plausible country would have a different language system.
I have no problems giving my players languages 'for free' if they spend enough time in a region to learn the language.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1028675Good times. Last time I saw one of those, I wasn't banned TBP.
I love languages, and I like it when games use dialects instead of making sure everyone can speak a common tongue. I understand why, but then very few games allow you to pick them up 'organically', requiring you spend a resource.
In my Albion and L&D campaign you can learn languages by spending enough time studying the language, either immersed or with the help of a tutor.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1028864In games, it's mostly flavour anyway, which is why most fantasy games default to a 'Common' tongue, despite how a plausible country would have a different language system.
Other than one or two long-ago high-school D&D campaigns that mostly ignored languages, I don't think I've ever seen language treated as solely or even mostly just flavor. But I mostly use systems that have skills, including language skills.
Quote from: Bren;1029188Other than one or two long-ago high-school D&D campaigns that mostly ignored languages, I don't think I've ever seen language treated as solely or even mostly just flavor. But I mostly use systems that have skills, including language skills.
I will point out for historical interest that Middle Earth had a "common tongue." Even goblins and orcs spoke Westron.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029192I will point out for historical interest that Middle Earth had a "common tongue." Even goblins and orcs spoke Westron.
Point taken, But Middle Earth didn't have any lightning bolt spells and Gandalf's burning pine cones in the Hobbit were a pretty shitty kind of "fireball." In point of fact I wasn't referring to literature, but if you want to get all literary Moorcock's fantasy nearly always ignores or hand waves language differences between humans/humanoids, Burroughs had virtually every intelligent being on the entire planet Mars being able to speak to one another and Tarzan could talk to apes and learned English and French by reading it in books without first knowing how to read or having a teacher. So yeah lots of writers don't want to slow or clutter the bulk of their narrative with translation issues. And most authors aren't James Joyce. We shouldn't be surprised if there are lots of GMs and players who don't want to bother with translation issues either. But in literature there aren't many authors who regularly track how many arrows an archer has, bullets the pulp hero carries, how many torches an explorer uses, or how much food the heroes are carrying. Some game systems (OD&D) expect you to track that shit. Others (BoL) mostly don't. I was merely referring to my experience which is different than that of Chris. I'm pretty fine with people paying attention in gaming to the stuff they find interesting and ignoring the stuff they don't. Heck I've heard some folks do crazy shit like feed their dungeon orcs on takeout from fast food restaurants. :D