Quote from: VisionStorm on June 14, 2023, 01:51:33 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 14, 2023, 12:44:37 PM
Those awful forgies puffing themselves for game design and claiming other people were suffering from brain damage (defective if you will) if they didn't fall into their paradigm.
The Old Schoolers have more class and dignity than that.

To take a page out of Pundit's book and cast generalized aspersions against an entire group of people based on my own negative experiences with a limited sample of them: People who're in love with OD&D have always been like that since before the OSR became the OSR. Back in the day in my old gaming circles it was always the people who couldn't let go of Basic who behaved like that. They just couldn't fathom the idea that anyone could like any other system or want things that Basic D&D couldn't provide. And they always had disparaging remarks about other systems (including AD&D) and people who liked them that basically amounted to "They're not like Basic D&D, therefore they're wrong".

With few rare exceptions (like maybe people like Estar and some at another forum) my interactions with the OSR has done nothing but reaffirm my views of people obsessed with Old/Basic D&D. They just can't think outside of the old D&D paradigm and automatically assume that anything and anyone outside of it must simply be "wrong", at a fundamentally subhuman level and worthy of disparagement. And can never argue points or with the aim achieving understanding. But with the purpose of attacking and getting into "arguments" in the sense of having a verbal(or written) "fight" and "winning" it.

For the record, as an OD&D fan, I do not believe that those who prefer other games or styles of play to be subhuman or guilty of wrongthink. Many of these games, however, are not representative of D&D in scope or objectives of play.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 14, 2023, 02:16:03 PMFor the record, as an OD&D fan, I do not believe that those who prefer other games or styles of play to be subhuman or guilty of wrongthink. Many of these games, however, are not representative of D&D in scope or objectives of play.

And I think that's very fair and can feel absolutely sucky if this core D&D experience is now stripped from what you consider core to the D&D aspect. I think Star Trek has been stripped from Star Trek (fuck off season 3 Picarders).

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 14, 2023, 02:18:13 PM
I think Star Trek has been stripped from Star Trek (fuck off season 3 Picarders).

It's something where parodies of Star Trek are more Star Trek than Star Trek, which isn't even remotely Star Trek at all anymore. I'm speaking, of course, of The Orville and Galaxy Quest.

In the same way 4th edition, and it is looking like 6th edition aren't even D&D at all.

Quote from: Chris24601 on June 13, 2023, 09:58:16 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 13, 2023, 04:15:52 AM
Yeah, that's proof enough that you don't understand D&D, and therefore RPGs. "Lived long enough to know the preference of what you like and don't" just means that you haven't learned much about life, and have no idea what your own limitations are. Instead, you've glorified them.

And your "OneTrueWay-ism" makes you your own worst enemy in your war with the Woke, because you insist on driving away potential allies who agree with you on 90% of things by denigrating those who deviate in the slightest from your "received wisdom."

It's not that people can have different preferences. No, they must have not learned enough about life (though I highly doubt you've lived more than I have) if they don't agree that your ideas are the best things since sliced bread.

How many different systems have you even actually tried? I don't mean read and scoffed at and cast aside... I mean actually sat down and tried for multiple sessions to actually learn whether they were right for you? BECMI, AD&D 1-2e, Palladium, WEG Star Wars, Mekton, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, all the Battletech RPGs, oWoD, nWoD, HERO, GURPS, Amber, Silouette, LUGTrek, 3e, 4E, 5e, M&M2e and 3e... one offs like DreamPark (R. Talsorian), Arcanis or Witchhunter?

Holy shit a ridiculous amount. I couldn't possibly list them all. Every edition of D&D except 0D&D, pretty much every Palladium product before 2000, every Chaosium product, every Dr. Who game ever, Prime Directive, Champions/Hero, GURPS (in multiple campaigns and different power levels), Mekton and Cyberpunk, TORG and Shatterzone, Dungeoneer, Villains & Vigilantes, various different editions of Traveller, Heavy Gear, Deadlands, Shadowrun, Amber (obviously), Nephilim, Maelstrom, dozens of small press games almost no one has ever heard of, Dangerous Journeys, Tunnels & Trolls, WFRP, MERP, Everway, Feng Shui, Gamma World, Paranoia, Over the Edge, and probably quite a few more I can't recall just now, and all that is before the year 2000.
Since then I've run CoC, Traveller, ICONS, Qin, Aces & Eights, SW D20 (revised), True20, 3e D&D, a ton of D20 era games, Lamentations, Aquelarre, Capitan Alatriste, Midnight, Paranoia XP, The Fantasy Trip, DCC, probably a half dozen others I can't recall offhand, and of course all the games I've written myself.

QuoteWhat sort of broader life experience do you have that's provided this insight? How many places have you been? How many mountains have you climbed? How many oceans have you splashed in? How many planes have you flown? How many boats have you sailed? How many horses have you ridden? How many different types of animals have you raised? How many things have you built with your own two hands? How many children/godchildren do you have? How many family members have you buried? How many protests or parades have you marched in? Have you ever been in a real fight? Have you ever run headlong into danger without thinking because you saw a stranger's life threatened?

You really don't want to be asking that. I've lived more than most people would in six lifetimes, dude. I've lived like a literal aristocrat and like a pauper (and now, I guess, a member of the bohemian middle-class). Explored ancient secrets, and became a recognized master in several of them.  Been in the middle of protests and riots. Lived in a half-dozen countries on three continents, visited dozens more; swam and/or sailed in both of the big ones and several seas. Thought I was going to die a dozen times. Did more drugs and had more sex than a lot of rock stars. I've written about 120 books. Reinvented myself multiple times. I've seen things and accomplished things even I would never have believed.  And that's only the stuff I'm allowed to tell you.

So yeah, if I'm arrogant it's because of lengthy experience.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2023, 01:19:56 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 13, 2023, 01:08:09 PMThat's because Kevin Crawford is an objectively bad and defective human being. 

If we wanna yell sales numbers, everything is a distant #3 behind D&D 5e. Which has options up the ass and boatloads of woke. And increasing its options and woke didn't cause sales numbers to go down. #2 is Pathfinder with its options overloads. Everything else is peanuts in comparison.
Sales matter and are an example of philosophical dominance and superiority, until they are not.
Hell D&D 5e, even right out of the gate with its Players Handbook, had more in common with 3e (and even elements of 4e) than it ever did with OSR content. But because it walked the walk, it was a "Win".

But the main thing D&D5e kicked the crap out of was the sale figures of the former big guns: 3.5 and pathfinder, which had way more options than 5e in terms of mechanical construction and character creation. 5e's motto was "dare to simplify", literally; there was a big banner with that in the D&D HQ to remind the typing stooges that the point was for 5e to be much easier to run and play as a "casual" gamer than ever.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 14, 2023, 10:21:40 AM


Spot on.  Thus endeth the argument.

They hired me to help make 5e because everything I said about why and how 4e would fail turned out to be true.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 15, 2023, 11:15:45 PMBut the main thing D&D5e kicked the crap out of was the sale figures of the former big guns: 3.5 and pathfinder, which had way more options than 5e in terms of mechanical construction and character creation. 5e's motto was "dare to simplify", literally; there was a big banner with that in the D&D HQ to remind the typing stooges that the point was for 5e to be much easier to run and play as a "casual" gamer than ever.

And years later with loads of new content and options, its sales have been impacted by exactly 0% (up until the reveal of 6e which always impacts the sales of an older edition).

It making more money now, with its side-content of course means nothing. Just pick and choose whatever statistics support your divine claim.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 15, 2023, 11:13:01 PMSo yeah, if I'm arrogant it's because of lengthy experience.

Kevin has attracted magnitudes more people to OSR principles through humbleness than you have through braggadocio.

I had to watch this video a couple of times and only really understand where you were going with it until you reexplained it on Diversity and Dragons.  I think maybe my misinterpretation of what you meant by the title fogged my ability to get it as i watched the video.

I agree that rolling up a character needs some items that are beyond the reach of players to decide.  I like the idea of character creation becoming a dance between the desires of the player and the randomness given by the dice coming together to make something more beautiful than just min-maxing with a spreadsheet.

My favorite PC generation method ever is from Traveller.  I couldn't really articulate it before but I love the whole thing of getting some random info, deciding what to do with it, and rolling to see where the decision takes you.  Through the repetition of it, you really start to get a real character to form.  Taking it one step further, if you're doing it right (imo), you're doing it at the table with the other players.  This means that you can stitch together common events and form bonds as the PCs are taking shape.  In a way this is doing with team building as a group what you are doing as an individual with the PC.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 15, 2023, 11:15:45 PM

But the main thing D&D5e kicked the crap out of was the sale figures of the former big guns: 3.5 and pathfinder, which had way more options than 5e in terms of mechanical construction and character creation. 5e's motto was "dare to simplify", literally; there was a big banner with that in the D&D HQ to remind the typing stooges that the point was for 5e to be much easier to run and play as a "casual" gamer than ever.

This was the main factor that influenced my decision to try 5E. It has become my favorite WOTC edition. Thank you for your contributions.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 15, 2023, 11:15:45 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2023, 01:19:56 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 13, 2023, 01:08:09 PMThat's because Kevin Crawford is an objectively bad and defective human being. 

If we wanna yell sales numbers, everything is a distant #3 behind D&D 5e. Which has options up the ass and boatloads of woke. And increasing its options and woke didn't cause sales numbers to go down. #2 is Pathfinder with its options overloads. Everything else is peanuts in comparison.
Sales matter and are an example of philosophical dominance and superiority, until they are not.
Hell D&D 5e, even right out of the gate with its Players Handbook, had more in common with 3e (and even elements of 4e) than it ever did with OSR content. But because it walked the walk, it was a "Win".

But the main thing D&D5e kicked the crap out of was the sale figures of the former big guns: 3.5 and pathfinder, which had way more options than 5e in terms of mechanical construction and character creation. 5e's motto was "dare to simplify", literally; there was a big banner with that in the D&D HQ to remind the typing stooges that the point was for 5e to be much easier to run and play as a "casual" gamer than ever.

Simplicity doesn't necessarily entail less choices. Savage Worlds, for example, is simple AF, yet highly customizable. I was able to create my first character in 10 minutes tops without even knowing all rules or being familiar with the system. Yet all of that simplicity didn't necessitate throwing out the options/choices and customizability baby out with the bath water.

If anything, I would argue that Savage Worlds is vastly more simple, yet also has vastly more options than any edition of D&D. It's almost like options/choices isn't the spice of bad, but rather needless complexity.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 15, 2023, 11:39:48 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 15, 2023, 11:13:01 PMSo yeah, if I'm arrogant it's because of lengthy experience.

Kevin has attracted magnitudes more people to OSR principles through humbleness than you have through braggadocio.

Do you mean Kevin Crawford? He's great. But he's free to do the things he does because people like me are here fighting for him.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 16, 2023, 08:52:15 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 15, 2023, 11:15:45 PM

But the main thing D&D5e kicked the crap out of was the sale figures of the former big guns: 3.5 and pathfinder, which had way more options than 5e in terms of mechanical construction and character creation. 5e's motto was "dare to simplify", literally; there was a big banner with that in the D&D HQ to remind the typing stooges that the point was for 5e to be much easier to run and play as a "casual" gamer than ever.

This was the main factor that influenced my decision to try 5E. It has become my favorite WOTC edition. Thank you for your contributions.

Thank you!

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 16, 2023, 09:26:30 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 15, 2023, 11:15:45 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2023, 01:19:56 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 13, 2023, 01:08:09 PMThat's because Kevin Crawford is an objectively bad and defective human being. 

If we wanna yell sales numbers, everything is a distant #3 behind D&D 5e. Which has options up the ass and boatloads of woke. And increasing its options and woke didn't cause sales numbers to go down. #2 is Pathfinder with its options overloads. Everything else is peanuts in comparison.
Sales matter and are an example of philosophical dominance and superiority, until they are not.
Hell D&D 5e, even right out of the gate with its Players Handbook, had more in common with 3e (and even elements of 4e) than it ever did with OSR content. But because it walked the walk, it was a "Win".

But the main thing D&D5e kicked the crap out of was the sale figures of the former big guns: 3.5 and pathfinder, which had way more options than 5e in terms of mechanical construction and character creation. 5e's motto was "dare to simplify", literally; there was a big banner with that in the D&D HQ to remind the typing stooges that the point was for 5e to be much easier to run and play as a "casual" gamer than ever.

Simplicity doesn't necessarily entail less choices. Savage Worlds, for example, is simple AF, yet highly customizable. I was able to create my first character in 10 minutes tops without even knowing all rules or being familiar with the system. Yet all of that simplicity didn't necessitate throwing out the options/choices and customizability baby out with the bath water.

If anything, I would argue that Savage Worlds is vastly more simple, yet also has vastly more options than any edition of D&D. It's almost like options/choices isn't the spice of bad, but rather needless complexity.

There is absolutely no human way a newbie player gets to create a SW (or any open point buy system) in 10 minutes, unless he's being massively pulled by the nose by the GM, who enforces very limited options to the player.

Someone who's never read D&D can make a basic 5e character quite quickly, if you don't use feats.
For a SW character you have to first:
-learn the ability scores. You then have points you have to put, openly, into raising the ability scores
-get 15 skill points which you have to decide to spread among somewhere over 20 skills, with no limitations, where skills cost 1 point each until they cost 2 points each
-then you have to get edges and hindrances, where you again have to look at a potentially giant list of options, to try to decide either what best fits your character or, more likely, what allows you the best character-optimization. It will require careful study to decide which edge gives you the absolute best advantage while at the same time choosing a hindrance that will actually be as little hindering as possible, hopefully not at all.
-then it throws you $500 and go shopping, again with no guidance at all about starting equipment. Just look at every single piece of kit and try to figure out what you might need and make a $500 expense account of it.

Unless a player is being helped, or having his options limited, there's no way that takes under an hour for someone who has never played SW or read the book before.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 16, 2023, 02:44:45 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 16, 2023, 09:26:30 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 15, 2023, 11:15:45 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2023, 01:19:56 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 13, 2023, 01:08:09 PMThat's because Kevin Crawford is an objectively bad and defective human being. 

If we wanna yell sales numbers, everything is a distant #3 behind D&D 5e. Which has options up the ass and boatloads of woke. And increasing its options and woke didn't cause sales numbers to go down. #2 is Pathfinder with its options overloads. Everything else is peanuts in comparison.
Sales matter and are an example of philosophical dominance and superiority, until they are not.
Hell D&D 5e, even right out of the gate with its Players Handbook, had more in common with 3e (and even elements of 4e) than it ever did with OSR content. But because it walked the walk, it was a "Win".

But the main thing D&D5e kicked the crap out of was the sale figures of the former big guns: 3.5 and pathfinder, which had way more options than 5e in terms of mechanical construction and character creation. 5e's motto was "dare to simplify", literally; there was a big banner with that in the D&D HQ to remind the typing stooges that the point was for 5e to be much easier to run and play as a "casual" gamer than ever.

Simplicity doesn't necessarily entail less choices. Savage Worlds, for example, is simple AF, yet highly customizable. I was able to create my first character in 10 minutes tops without even knowing all rules or being familiar with the system. Yet all of that simplicity didn't necessitate throwing out the options/choices and customizability baby out with the bath water.

If anything, I would argue that Savage Worlds is vastly more simple, yet also has vastly more options than any edition of D&D. It's almost like options/choices isn't the spice of bad, but rather needless complexity.

There is absolutely no human way a newbie player gets to create a SW (or any open point buy system) in 10 minutes, unless he's being massively pulled by the nose by the GM, who enforces very limited options to the player.

Someone who's never read D&D can make a basic 5e character quite quickly, if you don't use feats.
For a SW character you have to first:
-learn the ability scores. You then have points you have to put, openly, into raising the ability scores
-get 15 skill points which you have to decide to spread among somewhere over 20 skills, with no limitations, where skills cost 1 point each until they cost 2 points each
-then you have to get edges and hindrances, where you again have to look at a potentially giant list of options, to try to decide either what best fits your character or, more likely, what allows you the best character-optimization. It will require careful study to decide which edge gives you the absolute best advantage while at the same time choosing a hindrance that will actually be as little hindering as possible, hopefully not at all.
-then it throws you $500 and go shopping, again with no guidance at all about starting equipment. Just look at every single piece of kit and try to figure out what you might need and make a $500 expense account of it.

Unless a player is being helped, or having his options limited, there's no way that takes under an hour for someone who has never played SW or read the book before.

In D&D you also have to learn the ability scores. SWADE (the SW edition I tried) has this Character Creation Summary that's really easy to follow, including summaries for all Skills, Edges and Hindrances, so you don't even have to go in-depth into the manual to find all this stuff. The game only gives you 5 points for attributes during creation, which are very quick to assign. You can just assign one point per attribute (there are 5 in SWADE) as a starting point, then maybe drop one from one or two attributes and assign them to another one, and you're set.

Then you have 1d4 in Athletics, Common Knowledge, Notice, Persuasion, and Stealth for free. Plus 12 points for any skill. Starting Edges and Hindrances beyond anything that your Race gives you are optional. And you don't have to through all the analysis you mentioned unless you're min/maxing, which I thought was terribad. But even then I was able to do it pretty quick by falling back on the summaries as a guide.

D&D also gives you a bunch of money for starting gear with zero guidance, at least in the exalted older editions. So not sure how SW is different in that regard to almost any other TTRPG. And handwaving that as a GM is extremely easy.

I made a bunch of characters a few months ago during the One Character a Day Challenge elsewhere and the thing that usually took me most time was finding a good pic to post with my character. And maybe if I got too picky with which Hindrances I would take. Starting with extra "advances" (levels) also to longer to pick up new Edges, but normally you only have to deal with one advance/new Edge at a time. I just wanted to see what starting out with a character with more edges was like.

My first character was a newbie version of my main D&D dark elf sorceress. And it just took me like 10 minutes to make her. I was like "Holy crap! Where was SW my whole life?!?"

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 16, 2023, 02:44:45 PM
Unless a player is being helped, or having his options limited, there's no way that takes under an hour for someone who has never played SW or read the book before.

Is there any value to a brand new player building a character instead of starting with a pregen? I can appreciate that a surplus of options slows down gameplay, but I am not seeing how roll 6 stats in order is much faster than rate 6 stat best to worst with a static array.