To improve the potential of the RPG experience, it is actually better to limit the choices in character creation.
#dnd       #ttrpg   #osr

This entire argument is so alien to how I make characters. I mean sure, players that are uncreative/power gamers could maybe get more emersion from builds they don't choose, but I like my GM to respect my abilities enough to let me loose.

I cannot wait to hear how bad randomizing character creation is from some of the usual suspects...that said, I played in a 100% random B/X game last weekend at a gaming con and 8 characters were created in about 10 minutes. Try doing that with 5th edition, much less something like GURPS/HERO. And it was a fun game for sure, but I think I'd like SOME level of control when rolling up a PC, even if it's only to pick from a couple character classes my die rolls qualified for. AD&D with the Secondary Skills table is probably my ideal character generation method simply because you can almost always meet the requirements for one of the main classes, while the subclasses are much, much rarer if the DM enforces legitimately rolling using one of the methods described in the DMG.

Still, I might run a similar "100% random" game in the future, just to see what happens. We used the tables in the two d30 books here to do the rolls and they're really fun: https://www.newbigdragon.com/accessories.html

Preach to your choir man.

I have found that after around 43 years of GM and player experience that boatloads of character options lead to rules bloat and obsession with optimization. Players will spend hours making sure the character is optimal for whatever it is they want to dominate whether it be combat, social interactions, magical hacks,etc. They spend almost no time on consideration of things like being fun to play, or interesting. They spend so much time putting the character into such a deep pigeonhole that when actual play takes them away from being able to exercise their specialty to the fullest extent they just pout and sulk. This stuff really got started in 1st edition with UA. Oh how the double specialized melee fighters griped when attacked by flying creatures that wouldn't land and engage on the ground. They were forced to use their sub optimal missile weapons. A B/X fighter doesn't have all that shit to worry about. The fighter equips the best variety of weapons that are affordable & available at any given time. So many times have I heard the bitching and griping of players of 3rd edition fighters not finding a magical obscure weapon that they have invested specialization and a bunch of feats toward mastering. They expect the universe to conform to the narrow focused choices that they made. A standard B/X fighter can be a soldier, mercenary, barbarian, knight, ranger or any flavor of martial character that the player wants to play.

The syndrome that grips players once option overload hits is that their entire focus during play is on what their character can do mechanically and waiting for an opportunity to press those buttons. What is going on in the game world becomes background noise. All attention and focus is on character capabilities instead of what is actually happening to and around the characters. That kind of shit makes me not want to GM.

Meh. Random generation is good for quick character creation or coming up with character concepts when you're stumped. But the idea that it's somehow preferable/superior because it's "realistic" or whatever is dubious on multiple levels.

First of all, not everything in life is completely random. Even if some (arguably many) aspects of our lives are beyond our control we still get to pick plenty of stuff (according to some, we even get to pick what family we're born into and have a buncha karmic baggage we come prepackaged with, but that's debatable stuff that's impossible to ascertain and must be taken on faith, if you even believe it). I remember specifically choosing to learn how to draw back when I was a kid. I've also chosen to practice martial arts at various points in my life. I've also chosen to neglect various skills I could've practiced, and plenty of people choose to train their Strength, which is a totally possible and doable thing...unlike in D&D where your attributes are set in stone (even in recent editions where you get X points every Y levels, you're still stuck with what you start with).

Second of all, even to the degree that some things are random that still doesn't mean that whatever random method is used in game is gonna produce comparable results to what people experience in real life. I'm still not convinced that people IRL diverge in ability as much as D&D random ability score generation allows. And it's pretty unlikely that you're going to come up with every conceivable life event that could impact a character's background when writing up a TTRPG setting. Not to mention that you would need to tailor make random tables for every campaign, just to cover every GM's concept.

Lastly, people generally play games like TTRPGs for a reason. And that reason is not to relive real life during play. If living real life was so awesome we wouldn't waste time playing time consuming AF games like TTRPGs. We'd be out there adventuring IRL or sharpening our skills and such--actually, according to the idea that everything is random we wouldn't even be able to do that last part, cuz skill development is not a choice. It's some random event that happens because reasons. So just adventuring in a straightjacket profession we can't diverge from. But we don't, cuz real life sucks.

And TTRPGs aren't about emulating real life, but escapism, which can take many forms. And sometimes that escapism can be open to new experiences or trying out totally random stuff. Other times you have a specific type of hero in mind, and rolling for everything would just get in the way. Sometimes it's a combination of both (random rolls for ideas, then ignore rolls you don't like and pick the stuff goes along with your emerging concept). But the whole thing about totally random vs freeform selection supremacy in TTRPGs is a false dilemma.

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 06, 2023, 03:20:35 PMBut the whole thing about totally random vs freeform selection supremacy in TTRPGs is a false dilemma.

Yes, but it does mean the type of play that was once the sole type of play, is now one among many, and that comes as a bitter pill to swallow for the people that like that sort of play.

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 06, 2023, 03:20:35 PM
Meh. Random generation is good for quick character creation or coming up with character concepts when you're stumped. But the idea that it's somehow preferable/superior because it's "realistic" or whatever is dubious on multiple levels.

First of all, not everything in life is completely random. Even if some (arguably many) aspects of our lives are beyond our control we still get to pick plenty of stuff (according to some, we even get to pick what family we're born into and have a buncha karmic baggage we come prepackaged with, but that's debatable stuff that's impossible to ascertain and must be taken on faith, if you even believe it). I remember specifically choosing to learn how to draw back when I was a kid. I've also chosen to practice martial arts at various points in my life. I've also chosen to neglect various skills I could've practiced, and plenty of people choose to train their Strength, which is a totally possible and doable thing...unlike in D&D where your attributes are set in stone (even in recent editions where you get X points every Y levels, you're still stuck with what you start with).

Second of all, even to the degree that some things are random that still doesn't mean that whatever random method is used in game is gonna produce comparable results to what people experience in real life. I'm still not convinced that people IRL diverge in ability as much as D&D random ability score generation allows. And it's pretty unlikely that you're going to come up with every conceivable life event that could impact a character's background when writing up a TTRPG setting. Not to mention that you would need to tailor make random tables for every campaign, just to cover every GM's concept.

Lastly, people generally play games like TTRPGs for a reason. And that reason is not to relive real life during play. If living real life was so awesome we wouldn't waste time playing time consuming AF games like TTRPGs. We'd be out there adventuring IRL or sharpening our skills and such--actually, according to the idea that everything is random we wouldn't even be able to do that last part, cuz skill development is not a choice. It's some random event that happens because reasons. So just adventuring in a straightjacket profession we can't diverge from. But we don't, cuz real life sucks.

And TTRPGs aren't about emulating real life, but escapism, which can take many forms. And sometimes that escapism can be open to new experiences or trying out totally random stuff. Other times you have a specific type of hero in mind, and rolling for everything would just get in the way. Sometimes it's a combination of both (random rolls for ideas, then ignore rolls you don't like and pick the stuff goes along with your emerging concept). But the whole thing about totally random vs freeform selection supremacy in TTRPGs is a false dilemma.

I think you are missing the point about choices. There is nothing about gameplay that attempts to emulate real life. I don't see limited choices as any sort of hinderance or authenticatiom of realism. It is simply a model that focuses play on personality and character development, as well as on what is happening during play  rather than navel gazing about what the character can and cannot do mechanically.

A general unwillingness to play a randomly generated character tells me that the player is an identity-obsessed snowflake.

Random, pregen, roll your own, I like them all. Each method has pros and cons and the choice depends on the game, mood, table, alignment of the stars, what have you. I had one table recently where players used different methods, which is cool, too.

Sometimes I customize my character and only roll for the choices I don't give a shit about.

I hope the video is about this because I haven't watch it yet.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 06, 2023, 04:04:53 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on June 06, 2023, 03:20:35 PM
*snip*

I think you are missing the point about choices. There is nothing about gameplay that attempts to emulate real life. I don't see limited choices as any sort of hinderance or authenticatiom of realism. It is simply a model that focuses play on personality and character development, as well as on what is happening during play  rather than navel gazing about what the character can and cannot do mechanically.

I was addressing claims made in the video in support of the idea that random generation is superior to freeform/point-buy on the basis that it's more like real life. My points are relevant to those claims, which do involve some degree of reality emulation as part of the implicit goal.

I also disagree that random generation (what primarily gets discussed in the video) focuses on personality or character development. Random generation focuses on selection being random. Personality or character development is a secondary byproduct that may or may not arise either way, regardless of what method gets used. And what the character can and cannot do mechanically does have an impact on what happens during play, so concerns about that are not as navel gazing as holding up random generation as some supreme standard on the basis of reasons.

Quote from: rytrasmi on June 06, 2023, 04:24:36 PM
A general unwillingness to play a randomly generated character tells me that the player is an identity-obsessed snowflake.

I have often seen this claim made whenever this or similar topics come up, but I have yet to see anything supporting it other than superficial similarities between the idea of character customization and the idea of "snowflakes". As well as a general dislike on these boards of ID politics/wokeness, therefore anything shiting on it by proxy must be A-OK, even if made purely on the basis of a spurious connection.

The reasoning basically goes like this: "Customization (may) leads to 'snowflake' characters. SJW/woketards are 'snowflakes'. Therefore people who want control customizing their character must be identity obsessed."

Meanwhile, inside the delusions of some GMs...

GM: "So what do you say?"
Player: "Huh?"
GM: "Were you even listening to the King's speech?"
Player: "No, sorry, the dazzling range of options available to me demands my full attention, and I'm
           unable to focus on the narrative, for constantly flicking through the rulebook seeking power."
GM: "Curse you, choices! If only I'd enforced strict randomness, my players would be focused and
        attentive!"


The suggestion that wanting to craft characters to your specifications makes one a snowflake is also a nice touch. Is this the fabled OSR fart-sniffing I've heard of?

Sigh. I've got nothing against customization.

It's people who refuse to play otherwise that I find to be obnoxious.

I thought "general unwillingness" was clear, but I guess not.

For maximum roleplay, construct personality charts for your characters. Then roll on them as responses for all scenarios.
Otherwise, that player may choose an optimal choice in a scenario instead of sticking to their character.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 06, 2023, 05:59:12 PM
For maximum roleplay, construct personality charts for your characters. Then roll on them as responses for all scenarios.
Otherwise, that player may choose an optimal choice in a scenario instead of sticking to their character.

That sounds very random, couldn't the GM just run all the characters, then email details of what the characters did to the players? That way you know everyone will be run correctly.

Quote from: Grognard GM on June 06, 2023, 06:13:52 PMThat sounds very random, couldn't the GM just run all the characters, then email details of what the characters did to the players? That way you know everyone will be run correctly.

Sounds pretty good. As we know things controlled and not randomly determined by the GM are double-plus good. The less the GM is weighed down by any sort of metric for evaluation, the better. Just have them describe 100% what happens. Random tables are for players.
The players can just sit there are occasionally offer suggestions. Maybe they could scribe whats going on, so the output can be saved for the future for maximum accuracy. Then somebody else can edit for clarity. And I mean hey, maybe this could be shared for a fee?

Those story-game losers don't know what they're missing.