How is this fiddly stuff going to make combat faster and more mobile?

Settembrini · November 21, 2007, 02:21:26 AM

From EnWorld

QuoteGeneral - The Importance of Terrain
A new article on the official site, The Importance of Terrain, deals with... well, terrain in 4E. The majority of the article reiterates that movement is more imortant in 4E, encounter areas are bigger, etc. It does have a good few items in it:
A reference to how 100' chasms are deadly in non-paragon/epic (levels 11+) play.
Information on a sample terrain type - the Doomspore, which includes an interesting insight into the poison mechanic (bold added by me): "If any creature enters a doomspore's square (or uses a standard action to kick or poke at it, if within reach), a doomspore releases a cloud of spores that provides concealment to all creatures within its own and adjacent squares. Furthermore, a bloodied creature in the area of a cloud when created, who moves into the cloud, or begins its turn in the cloud, is subject to a Fortitude attack (+10) that deals 1d10 points of poison damage on a hit. In addition, a target hit by a doomspore is weakened and takes ongoing poison 5 (save ends both conditions; creatures with immunity to or resist poison 5 are immune to the weakened condition also)." Note that a "bloodied" creature, to the best of our knowledge at present, is one at 50% or less hit points.
Thanks to Khaalis and Amadan for the scoop!

Huh?
Such stuff makes combat slower, if anything. And it makes movement something you think much more about, square, by sqare. It also takes away movement options. So this actually reduces the impact on tactical variety, but increase the time used for movement.

Am I missing something?

Drew · November 21, 2007, 02:36:34 AM

It's the core combat rules that are being streamlined, not the scenery.

I imagine the terrain rules will be strictly optional, much like the combat zones in Iron Heroes. If you want to build a complex series of chambers and rooms peppered with conditional effects then that's an option. If you want to keep things simple and play out battles on featureless terrain then you can do that too.

Settembrini · November 21, 2007, 02:52:24 AM

Hugh. But them´s saying gas spore make more mobility and fastness. Me not seeing it.

kryyst · November 21, 2007, 08:39:57 AM

The gas spore was an example of POISON mechanics not as an example of streamlining combat.

Quotethe Doomspore, which includes an interesting insight into the poison mechanic (bold added by me):

Also

QuoteGeneral - The Importance of Terrain

was the topic at hand and not the speedingupitness of the new terrain rules, of which I don't think there are any. Terrain (should the GM include it) can be more Important to your game, it's not going to speed it up.

Settembrini · November 21, 2007, 08:46:55 AM

As long as we agree, that such stuff doesn´t make combat more fluid and movement across larger areas more fun, then all is well.

Consonant Dude · November 21, 2007, 09:22:59 AM

I don't give a shit about poison rules, special terrain and such.

But I really want them to streamline "vanilla combat" a little and so far, I haven't seen anything of the sort so I remain hopeful but nervous.

Mechnomancer · November 24, 2007, 02:41:40 AM

the only way to speed up combat is for eveyone to know the rules. Don't be looking up something when it is your turn. Roll attack and damage dice at the same time. And for gods' sakes know how to do what it is your character is doing.

TheShadow · November 24, 2007, 02:54:42 AM

Quote from: Mechnomancerthe only way to speed up combat is for eveyone to know the rules.

Streamlining the rules also works.

Sacrificial Lamb · November 24, 2007, 04:04:25 AM

Quote from: Consonant DudeI don't give a shit about poison rules, special terrain and such.

But I really want them to streamline "vanilla combat" a little and so far, I haven't seen anything of the sort so I remain hopeful but nervous.

We're in the same boat, chief.

I hope those stat blocks are smaller too.

J Arcane · November 24, 2007, 04:20:08 AM

Quote from: The_ShadowStreamlining the rules also works.

There is no ruleset so simple that someone won't fail to understand it, or just not care to.

Lazy fuckers are lazy fuckers, the rules have no bearing on that.

Melinglor · November 24, 2007, 03:47:47 PM

Quote from: J ArcaneThere is no ruleset so simple that someone won't fail to understand it, or just not care to.

Lazy fuckers are lazy fuckers, the rules have no bearing on that.

Yeah, I gotta say that that's unfortunately true. My group's been playing BESM for years, and each combat we still have some fucker going "wait, is it roll under or roll over?" :confused:

Peace,
-Joel

Christmas Ape · November 24, 2007, 04:00:53 PM

Quote from: MelinglorYeah, I gotta say that that's unfortunately true. My group's been playing BESM for years, and each combat we still have some fucker going "wait, is it roll under or roll over?" :confused:

Peace,
-Joel

See my "three sessions of asking how to roll basic shit and you're out" rule. You can pick up the base mechanics of a game in eight hours if you're expending at least the mental energy God gave the shovel.

jhkim · November 24, 2007, 04:08:56 PM

Quote from: Mechnomancerthe only way to speed up combat is for eveyone to know the rules. Don't be looking up something when it is your turn. Roll attack and damage dice at the same time. And for gods' sakes know how to do what it is your character is doing.

The balance of hit bonus, armor class, damage, and hit points is also important. i.e. How many rounds does it take for equally-matched opponents to reduce each other to zero hit points? The answer to that is hugely important for how long combats last. I typically like it if hit chances average around 50-75% range for balanced encounters. I prefer damage to hit points to be such that balanced combats last 6 to 8 rounds. Too often, there are technically balanced encounters where hit chances are really low, so you've got a lot of rounds eaten up by swing and whiff. Or the damage is so low that you go 10 rounds or more and it gets repetitive.

Consonant Dude · November 24, 2007, 05:13:20 PM

Quote from: jhkimThe balance of hit bonus, armor class, damage, and hit points is also important. i.e. How many rounds does it take for equally-matched opponents to reduce each other to zero hit points?

That's old school philosophy. The problem isn't a matter of rounds. The key is that every roll (and every result) needs to be interesting. Right now in D&D (and most RPGs for that matter), most rolls aren't, precisely because everyone is still caught up in the 70s using the basics you named (BAB, AC, dmg, HPs).

This is very comparable to the monotonous "button-mashing" in video games and needs to die. Unfortunately, the crowd that seems most interested in pushing those boundaries is mostly made up of people who aren't very good at game design. But we're getting there slowly.

Melinglor · November 25, 2007, 03:45:51 AM

Quote from: Christmas ApeSee my "three sessions of asking how to roll basic shit and you're out" rule. You can pick up the base mechanics of a game in eight hours if you're expending at least the mental energy God gave the shovel.

Oh, God, that would be so awesome--in about a month our group would be cut down to a manageable size and we'd have, like, twice as much fun.

(I, uh, have a pretty large group.)

But, I kid. They are my friends, after all.

Peace,
-Joel