Quote from: Ravenswing;753313It's about games that look like they did when the partisans first got into RPGs.[/COLOR]

You're right. AD&D 1e isn't rules light compared to a plethora of rules light games currently in existence, many of which have only one page of rules. You can run whole campaigns from the free Exalted Quickstart or free Trinity Quickstart and they have 1/20th of the rules of AD&D.

However, when talking with people in the OSR regarding actual play, what's interesting is that very few of us use AD&D's rules, but instead play a version that is much more akin to Basic D&D with AD&D bits. What bits we use fluxes from DM to DM, so that's why you see different stuff emphasized in different retroclones.

Even the OSR designers who are making "new" OSR games aren't going particularly "rules light" and certainly cranking out a lot more than one page rules.

Quote from: gonster;753265Like it says on the tin.

I see the OSR returning back to its hobbyist roots.

A strong component of the OSR was a return to a basic game.  Enough so that the new version of D&D is returning to a more basic game (Three cheers for the OSR!)

But it looks like the people who actually stay with the OSR now are doing so either:

1) for the more unusual offerings of the OSR (Arrows of Indra or Woodland Warriors say).

2) for nostalgia only.

What do you guys think...

I don't play/run OSRIC/1e or Labyrinth Lord/BX for nostalgia, no (I never actually played BX when it was available!). I play them because:
a) I sometimes want a simple, fast playing version of D&D.
b) If I want to GM online, the Dragonsfoot chatrooms suit me very well, and I have to run an old school game if I'm GMing there.

But I do expect there may be less OSR played going forward, that 5e may well attract some of that market.

I'm pretty happy with Microlite 75, Castles & Crusades, and Palladium Fantasy 1e to scratch that itch. I'm happy WotC seems to be making some good decisions these days, but honestly, the impact on my gaming is probably minimal.

The attitude to 5e here is really puzzling to me.  I don't get why anyone cares what game other people play.  I don't mind what you play, I only mind what I play.

I guess if I was selling my game for money instead of giving it away*, I might feel differently.

* Thanks to the RPGPundit for inventing the idea of a free .pdf rulebook, by the way.  Well done that man!

The way I see, interest in the OSR is built on 5 planks:

1: People who want a simpler D&D than the skills-plus-feats exception-based mechanics of 3E and 4E.
2: People who are nostalgic for the way TSR-era D&D worked (either TSR D&D in general or a specific iteration of it from OD&D to 2.5 AD&D).
3: People producing adventures and support material for fantasy games operating under the above assumptions and who want a legal figleaf to do so.
4: People producing retro-clones of old editions.
5: People who want to repurpose old mechanics to produce entirely new games working along the lines of the simpler pre-Wizards iterations of D&D, rather than direct clones of TSR-era editions.

Now, those are going to overlap to an extent, but even so, there's clearly going to be some planks that are more weakened by the new D&D than others - and I think Basic 5E is going to be the real killer here.

The new Basic D&D, provided it works as we all hope it's going to work, is going to vampirise plank 1 hard - it's basically a type of D&D those customers have been crying out for, and it's a type of D&D you can use to run any new adventure or setting material that Wizards bring out in the future too. Yes, the class and race selection might be sparse, but I reckon if you bought the PHB you wouldn't have too much trouble cooking up basic versions of the paladin and the tiefling and whatnot.

Plank 2 might also be hit hard, depending on how reminiscent Basic D&D is of TSR-era D&D. Certainly, if you take 3E and peel away feats and skills you end up with something that's reasonably close to TSR-era D&D, and people who've paid more attention to the playtest than me have said that its simpler iterations feel like an updated 2E or RC. At the same time, I don't see Basic D&D going quite as far as returning to, say, the old saving throw categories (since the 3E update is in many respects more intuitive) or descending AC. So whilst I don't think Basic 5E is going to win over anyone who is so passionately devoted to little mechanical quirks like descending AC, weird save categories, race-as-class or whatever that they refuse to countenance any alternative, I think it has the potential to grab the attention of most of the more moderate nostalgia crowd - and since it's typically easier to find games of the latest edition of D&D than it is to find games of more elderly editions, I think you may see a lot of TSR holdouts saying "Eh, it's close enough that I'm willing to live with it in return for more regular gaming."

As far as Plank 3 goes, the coming of Basic 5E means that they potentially have one more option when it comes to choosing which of the many D&Dalike systems they can stat up their modules for. Some might choose to dual-stat for Basic 5E and their retro-clone of choice, but dual-statting in general is cludgey and makes layout awkward. (Precious few dual-stat for the various different retro-clones available, or even for a retro-clone and 3E, for example.) Some may choose not to support Basic 5E, either because they don't like the terms of the new OGL, or because they have ideological objections overriding the obvious commercial advantages of being able to market to such a big userbase, or because they happen to publish one of the significant retro-clone systems and feel that supporting their biggest competitor isn't a move they can stomach.

At the same time, though, unless the new OGL for this edition is deeply obnoxious, the big fat customer base Wizards can offer 3rd parties access to is going to be so tempting that a hell of a lot of adventure and supplement producers are going to write for Basic 5E, and the more Basic 5E is able to support an old-school style of play, the more will make that leap. Some publishers - folks who only put stuff out on PDF, for instance - might happily put out multiple versions of their works for different systems, and some may bite the bullet and dual-stat, but many will simply jump on the 5E bandwagon - and if it's reasonably easy to translate 5E stuff to earlier editions, the number who hitch their wagon to Basic 5E will only grow.

Plank 4 will shrink more or less directly in proportion to how much Plank 2 shrinks, for obvious reasons - if less people are on the TSR nostalgia bandwagon, less people will want to use a retro-clone of a TSR-era edition rather than just using Basic 5E.

Plank 5 is the unpredictable one. Those producing games which are a lot like D&D but have a few tricks of their own, like ACKS or LotFP, may be able to refocus their product lines on the stuff that's unique to their games in order to better adapt to what's coming. In that sense, they may be hurt by 5E, but they are at least in a better position than those producing purist retro-clones, since the purist can't adapt their games accordingly because the whole premise of their offerings is to stick as close to the editions they are cloning as they conceivably can. At the same time, those producing games that are very divergent from D&D - Stars Without Number and Woodland Warriors spring to mind - probably aren't going to be affected that much. And if the new OGL includes a new SRD with new mechanics for people to borrow, if anything the coming of a new edition may enrich this plank by expanding the range of things that people can borrow and tinker with. Having new tools for the toolbox is never a disadvantage, after all.

In short, provided that the new Basic isn't botched, I think 5E is going to utterly shake up the commercial basis of the OSR, and those who expect to be able to keep going as they have during the 4E era are in for a rude awakening. At the same time, I do think there's a future for the OSR not so much as an independent commercial force, so much as it can be one voice within 5E's big tent, producing third party adventures and settings and sourcebooks and DMing advice which advocates old school play within the framework of the present edition as much as (and probably more than) it plays around with reviving old editions. Ultimately, if the new Basic plays like TSR-era D&D, then tinkering with OD&D/BX/BECMI/RC/AD&D 1 and 2 becomes more a matter of exploring the game's history rather than keeping a particular play style alive - because that play style will be alive and well within the Basic 5E community.

Quote from: P&P;753366* Thanks to the RPGPundit for inventing the idea of a free .pdf rulebook, by the way.  Well done that man!

:rotfl:

Quote from: gonster;753265Like it says on the tin.

I see the OSR returning back to its hobbyist roots.

A strong component of the OSR was a return to a basic game.  Enough so that the new version of D&D is returning to a more basic game (Three cheers for the OSR!)

But it looks like the people who actually stay with the OSR now are doing so either:

1) for the more unusual offerings of the OSR (Arrows of Indra or Woodland Warriors say).

2) for nostalgia only.

What do you guys think...

The point of the OSR is to play the original editions not something like them. Surrounding that are things like Majestic Wilderlands, Arrows of Indra, Lamentations of the Flame Princes, Blood & Treasure, and many fine other games that offer a different take on classic edition themes.

This can exist along other interest including the latest edition of D&D. And if the latest D&D is similar to how the playtest rules went then interest in OSR products will only rise especially adventures and supplements. This is because unlike GURPS, Fantasy Hero, Savage Worlds, the difference between classic editions and the 5e playtest are inches.

Quote from: Warthur;753368Plank 4 will shrink more or less directly in proportion to how much Plank 2 shrinks, for obvious reasons - if less people are on the TSR nostalgia bandwagon, less people will want to use a retro-clone of a TSR-era edition rather than just using Basic 5E.

Actually, lemme go further than that - I think that unless Basic 5E is botched, the growth of purist retro-clones (in which I could S&W, Labyrinth Lord and OSRIC) is going to be cut short.

There are basically three sources of customers for such games:

1: People who played the editions they cloned back in the day who want to keep playing them and need replacement books, and who keep playing those editions because they love them to bits.

2: People a lot like the guys in category 1, except they aren't passionately devoted to a specific pre-Wizards edition of D&D - they just don't like 3E or 4E.

3: People who are new to D&Dalike games, are interested in playing them, but don't find 3E or 4E very appealing.

People from category 1 are a cinch to grab: just make sure your retro-clone is as close to the original as the law allows, make an effort to recapture the aesthetic these veterans fell in love with, and they'll be happy. They aren't going to be tempted away by 5E because for whatever reason - whether it's a love of Erol Otus-styled weird fantasy aesthetics or a hatred for ascending AC which approaches religious proportions - these guys have their hooks dug well into their edition of choice and for the most part aren't budging, though you may get some slippage if they find the new 5E (or Basic 5E) really presses their buttons.

People from category 2 or 3, however, are going to be more difficult to keep. They want to know why your game is offering them something which the current version of D&D can't deliver. Now, at the moment that's an easy pitch - you point to the distinction between exception-based mechanics and stacks of feats/powers on the one hand and the rulings-based mechanics and simpler characters and monsters on the other, you talk about old school play styles and how they're supported by your system and undermined by Wizards' approach, and so on.

Once 5E is in play, suddenly your pitch is going to be much more difficult. If the customer just wants something simpler than 3E and 4E, then Basic 5E is going to offer that (and full-blooded 5E might even offer that too if a lot of the major complexities are just optional rules), and it's also going to provide the advantage of a wider player base thanks to Wizards' extra reach. If 5E or Basic 5E support old school playstyles too, then your pitch is really in trouble, because you're basically left with pointing at the differences between your game and Basic 5E, and customers in categories 2 and 3 are substantially less likely than those in category 1 to really care about ascending AC vs. descending AC or differing experience tables or other such things. You may get some mileage out of having classes beyond Basic 5E's limited number, but that's about it. (Even then, that advantage goes away if Basic versions of those classes become available down the line.)

In short, you'll keep your customers for whom the big advantage of your game is that it's Moldvay/Cook (or Mentzer, or Gygax, or Gygax/Arneson, or Holmes, or Allston) with the serial numbers filed off. You'll struggle to snare new customers who don't care about that and are just after a simpler, free D&D, and you'll also struggle to keep customers who came to you looking for that but are happy to switch to Basic 5E if that'll get them more game.

What's gonna happen?

We will continue playing AD&D and OD&D at our dead FLGS same as always.

Quote from: Warthur;753368In short, provided that the new Basic isn't botched, I think 5E is going to utterly shake up the commercial basis of the OSR, and those who expect to be able to keep going as they have during the 4E era are in for a rude awakening. At the same time, I do think there's a future for the OSR not so much as an independent commercial force, so much as it can be one voice within 5E's big tent, producing third party adventures and settings and sourcebooks and DMing advice which advocates old school play within the framework of the present edition as much as (and probably more than) it plays around with reviving old editions. Ultimately, if the new Basic plays like TSR-era D&D, then tinkering with OD&D/BX/BECMI/RC/AD&D 1 and 2 becomes more a matter of exploring the game's history rather than keeping a particular play style alive - because that play style will be alive and well within the Basic 5E community.

Dear [Producer of OSR retro-clone material that has talked about online],
Can I use it with D&D 5E? If not, I no buy your books!

Arrows of Indra via D&D 5E? Can we, could we, should we?

Quote from: P&P;753366I guess if I was selling my game for money instead of giving it away*, I might feel differently.

* Thanks to the RPGPundit for inventing the idea of a free .pdf rulebook, by the way.  Well done that man!

>inb4 TBP 4vengers "THE PUNDIT KILLED 4E! WE WANT HIS HEAD!"

All I can say is I'm unlikely to continue buying OSR products once 5E comes out. I may buy 5E content from proven OSR producers. But until 5E gets old and creaky, I'm not likely to even touch OSR products.

I think the OSR worked because it hit a the time where D&D was in a edition that felt unlike D&D, the old books weren't in print / legal .pdfs, and there was an internet presence who had already gathered up old school enthusiasts.

We're stepping into a new era. A new edition of D&D, out on the market, with a basic version that will be "the core" and free. Even if the OSR completely dies, some other "support/contrast" movement will crop up.

I play the old games.  Why should I care what these folks wrote? The new game would have to be pretty amazing for me to even be convinced to sit in on a session once.

And I very much doubt that. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Personally, I'm a Johnny-come-lately to the OSR scene, and I don't have much interest in the pure retro-clones (I have the originals on my shelf, after all). On the other hand, I've fallen in love with a couple of the neo-clones (ACKS and DCC, specifically), along with some of the adjunct material being produced (Sine Nomine's stuff, some of Frog God's adventures, etc.) by various OSR vendors. I'm not so sure D&D 5e is going to pull away that many people, although I expect it to become the lowest common denominator for an awful lot of D&D gamers of every stripe. Far more people I've encountered playing OSR stuff are doing so because of exactly what their neo- or retro-clone of choice is and does, not simply because they don't like 3e or 4e (though that may have been the catalyst). Plus, if D&D 5e actually expands the market, it may actually benefit many of the OSR games as some fraction of these new players will eventually fall into other games, which is the biggest reason a healthy D&D is good for the hobby as a whole.

Quote from: Akrasia;753266Um, maybe some people simply will continue to prefer 0e D&D, Basic/Expert D&D, 1e AD&D, etc., over D&D 5e?

And some people might find themselves liking both OOP A/D&D and 5e.

This is pretty much what I think will happen. New games don't really kill off old games- even if they go out of print. They can sometimes take over a large part of the fanbase, but there are almost always people to keep a game going.

Quote from: Baron;753423I play the old games.  Why should I care what these folks wrote? The new game would have to be pretty amazing for me to even be convinced to sit in on a session once.

And I very much doubt that. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Genuine question: is the same true of any new game? Are you similarly reluctant to try out what Bobloblah calls a "neo-clone" (thanks Bob!) where there's substantial deviations from the way your preferred edition(s) did things, or other systems entirely?

If that is the case and you're generally very reluctant to try any new game because you're very satisfied with what you currently have, that's great as far as your gaming goes, but at the same time it wouldn't make any sense for any publishers to pay much attention to your preferences because there's nothing they can really sell you (as far as core rules go) except a carbon copy of the game you already use and like.

If that's not the case, and you're specifically reluctant about 5E in a way you aren't reluctant about, say, ACKS or DCC, then... why? Why would you spurn at least trying out the free Basic game but at the same time give time to other D&D-like games put out by other publishers?

Quote from: Monster Manuel;753430This is pretty much what I think will happen. New games don't really kill off old games- even if they go out of print. They can sometimes take over a large part of the fanbase, but there are almost always people to keep a game going.

I tend to agree. I think it's possible that the OSR will slow way the hell down, but it won't vanish completely.

Then again, a game's fanbase can get very, very depleted and commercially inactive and still keep ticking over. Jorune has a tiny number of fansites and the barest trickle of material produced but it manages to hang in there. And whilst an individual might be equally happy with OD&D, ACKS, DCC and 5E, at the same time if they end up with 5 offers of a 5E game for every 1 offer they get of the others, they're going to spend much more time playing 5E than anything else.