Now that I'm only 1 degree of separation from Elon Musk, I figured I ought to give you my plans for when he puts me in charge of WotC �#dnd�
�#ttrpg� �#osr�
An interesting possibility, though I have to ask does this mean for your historical authentic products would they be put on the back burner for the duration of your stay at WOTC?
Do you think it would be a right decision, financially?
I have to assume most (or a least a large part) of the people playing 5e do so because they like the current direction, no?
what will 5e have to offer people already happy with OSR games? if not much, wouldn't it mean losing the younger crowd and not gaining enough to replace them?
Quote from: a_wanderer on December 08, 2024, 02:34:42 AMDo you think it would be a right decision, financially?
I have to assume most (or a least a large part) of the people playing 5e do so because they like the current direction, no?
what will 5e have to offer people already happy with OSR games? if not much, wouldn't it mean losing the younger crowd and not gaining enough to replace them?
I'm gonna make a guess and say you didn't listen carefully to the video. As 5e has aged, players (consumers) have dropped off due to the direction it's taken.
He said he'd basically reboot 5e to it's starting point and polish some of the problems that 5e core has. This would result in a game that's more approachable to the casual player than the OSR is and easier to run from a GM perspective. After that, he'd turn right where WOTC made a left turn midway in it's lifecycle and focus on better settings and adventures rather than a bunch of extra player features.
I personally would like to see a return to the gazette and module style of adventure publication. I also think WOTC could do a lot of looking at how the game is played at the table and finding ways to support tabletop play, like play mats, tokens, and dice trays.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on December 08, 2024, 12:27:48 AMAn interesting possibility, though I have to ask does this mean for your historical authentic products would they be put on the back burner for the duration of your stay at WOTC?
In the unlikely event that Elon buys WotC, and the also unlikely event that he hired me to fix D&D, I suppose that my own projects would be on hold. Duty has its costs.
Quote from: a_wanderer on December 08, 2024, 02:34:42 AMDo you think it would be a right decision, financially?
I have to assume most (or a least a large part) of the people playing 5e do so because they like the current direction, no?
what will 5e have to offer people already happy with OSR games? if not much, wouldn't it mean losing the younger crowd and not gaining enough to replace them?
I'm not sure if you actually watched the video, but I propose a new edition that would not fit the OSR design mold. It would in fact be based on the principles of 5e but more streamlined for better casual adoption.
And given that the number of people buying 5e stuff has been steadily declining for years now, clearly they're no longer that happy with it.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2024, 08:31:07 AMQuote from: a_wanderer on December 08, 2024, 02:34:42 AMDo you think it would be a right decision, financially?
I have to assume most (or a least a large part) of the people playing 5e do so because they like the current direction, no?
what will 5e have to offer people already happy with OSR games? if not much, wouldn't it mean losing the younger crowd and not gaining enough to replace them?
I'm not sure if you actually watched the video, but I propose a new edition that would not fit the OSR design mold. It would in fact be based on the principles of 5e but more streamlined for better casual adoption.
And given that the number of people buying 5e stuff has been steadily declining for years now, clearly they're no longer that happy with it.
I listened, I even agree with a lot of what you said and personally would love to see this happen.
However, it seems to me people who play 5e actually like the superheroic vibe, and the leaning into digital, and the endless variety of spells that allows builds etc... that's why Tasha was popular- it's a whole industry that feeds itself with people who don't necessarily play but buy stuff because they like to vicariously, and youtuber that live off of builds videos, and a whole community that is there not gaming per se (also things you've talked about before), but still keeps the brand awareness. Critical Role may not be pure gamers, but they raise millions for their show, fill arenas and such.
Now let's say Elon takes control. what happens to all of that? it implodes, and takes most of the casuals with it. because their favorite celeb/ youtuber doesn't like or promotes that game anymore. the smear campaign will be of epic proportions.
The game can be excellent, but the younger players will go elsewhere to fulfill that type of power fantasy.
So we're left with the people who don't care about that. But most of those are already playing games that better suit them. If I'm playing BoF, why would I go to 6e?
I could be totally wrong. I'm not marketing or designing anything. but I spent some time in other TTRPG forums and that was my first thought
Quote from: a_wanderer on December 08, 2024, 10:58:40 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2024, 08:31:07 AMQuote from: a_wanderer on December 08, 2024, 02:34:42 AMDo you think it would be a right decision, financially?
I have to assume most (or a least a large part) of the people playing 5e do so because they like the current direction, no?
what will 5e have to offer people already happy with OSR games? if not much, wouldn't it mean losing the younger crowd and not gaining enough to replace them?
I'm not sure if you actually watched the video, but I propose a new edition that would not fit the OSR design mold. It would in fact be based on the principles of 5e but more streamlined for better casual adoption.
And given that the number of people buying 5e stuff has been steadily declining for years now, clearly they're no longer that happy with it.
I listened, I even agree with a lot of what you said and personally would love to see this happen.
However, it seems to me people who play 5e actually like the superheroic vibe, and the leaning into digital, and the endless variety of spells that allows builds etc... that's why Tasha was popular- it's a whole industry that feeds itself with people who don't necessarily play but buy stuff because they like to vicariously, and youtuber that live off of builds videos, and a whole community that is there not gaming per se (also things you've talked about before), but still keeps the brand awareness. Critical Role may not be pure gamers, but they raise millions for their show, fill arenas and such.
Now let's say Elon takes control. what happens to all of that? it implodes, and takes most of the casuals with it. because their favorite celeb/ youtuber doesn't like or promotes that game anymore. the smear campaign will be of epic proportions.
The game can be excellent, but the younger players will go elsewhere to fulfill that type of power fantasy.
So we're left with the people who don't care about that. But most of those are already playing games that better suit them. If I'm playing BoF, why would I go to 6e?
I could be totally wrong. I'm not marketing or designing anything. but I spent some time in other TTRPG forums and that was my first thought
What you describe is why D&D is doomed as long as it belongs to a large publicly traded corp regardless of who is in charge. Shareholders want more earnings per share and don't give a rats ass about the integrity or quality of the game itself. If Elon wanted to truly save D&D he would need to make it a private company and concentrate on quality products. That model would still provide a profitable enterprise but not the kinds of earnings that would satisfy rabid shareholders. Once you have to answer to hordes of shareholders, all considerations other than those which boost revenue go out the window.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on December 08, 2024, 11:28:49 AMWhat you describe is why D&D is doomed as long as it belongs to a large publicly traded corp regardless of who is in charge. Shareholders want more earnings per share and don't give a rats ass about the integrity or quality of the game itself. If Elon wanted to truly save D&D he would need to make it a private company and concentrate on quality products. That model would still provide a profitable enterprise but not the kinds of earnings that would satisfy rabid shareholders. Once you have to answer to hordes of shareholders, all considerations other than those which boost revenue go out the window.
Sure, that's why I asked if that would be the right move financially. Elon may be rich enough to eat the losses, but I'm not sure D&D as a brand and IP (which is where most of the money is, I assume) would do as well without that hype machine. I'm not coming to this with animosity, on the contrary. just a thought.
Pundit talks about WoTC not catering to D&D's core audience. I wonder if said core audience didn't move to other systems/ editions. Hopefully that pans out in the long run, but someone would need to weather the storm
Quote from: a_wanderer on December 08, 2024, 10:58:40 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2024, 08:31:07 AMQuote from: a_wanderer on December 08, 2024, 02:34:42 AMDo you think it would be a right decision, financially?
I have to assume most (or a least a large part) of the people playing 5e do so because they like the current direction, no?
what will 5e have to offer people already happy with OSR games? if not much, wouldn't it mean losing the younger crowd and not gaining enough to replace them?
I'm not sure if you actually watched the video, but I propose a new edition that would not fit the OSR design mold. It would in fact be based on the principles of 5e but more streamlined for better casual adoption.
And given that the number of people buying 5e stuff has been steadily declining for years now, clearly they're no longer that happy with it.
I listened, I even agree with a lot of what you said and personally would love to see this happen.
However, it seems to me people who play 5e actually like the superheroic vibe, and the leaning into digital, and the endless variety of spells that allows builds etc... that's why Tasha was popular- it's a whole industry that feeds itself with people who don't necessarily play but buy stuff because they like to vicariously, and youtuber that live off of builds videos, and a whole community that is there not gaming per se (also things you've talked about before), but still keeps the brand awareness. Critical Role may not be pure gamers, but they raise millions for their show, fill arenas and such.
Now let's say Elon takes control. what happens to all of that? it implodes, and takes most of the casuals with it. because their favorite celeb/ youtuber doesn't like or promotes that game anymore. the smear campaign will be of epic proportions.
The game can be excellent, but the younger players will go elsewhere to fulfill that type of power fantasy.
So we're left with the people who don't care about that. But most of those are already playing games that better suit them. If I'm playing BoF, why would I go to 6e?
I could be totally wrong. I'm not marketing or designing anything. but I spent some time in other TTRPG forums and that was my first thought
I don't expect deeply engaged gamers who know about stuff like the OSR to move back to D&D (or at least, not exclusively, or primarily). What I expect is that casual gamers will do so, the more D&D looks like mainstream Heroic Fantasy, and the less it looks like a lecture on Diversity combined with an Eat/Pray/Love tumblr-fantasy tourism simulator.
On a similar note, I think that a great deal of the influencers would likely get right on board, because that's where the money will be for them. For the ones who have lived off of promoting D&D, the alternative is just slowly or quickly disappearing. Of course, some of the more intensely ideological people won't do that, and they'll just disappear. Which is another net benefit.
They'll be replaced by non-woke people who will ultimately be more popular because it's become very clear now that WOKE IS NOT POPULAR. Note that by "non-woke" I don't mean people who infuse right-wing politics into their media, I mean people who focus on the game and what it's all about, which should have nothing to do with modern political propaganda.
Quote from: a_wanderer on December 08, 2024, 12:52:07 PMQuote from: Exploderwizard on December 08, 2024, 11:28:49 AMWhat you describe is why D&D is doomed as long as it belongs to a large publicly traded corp regardless of who is in charge. Shareholders want more earnings per share and don't give a rats ass about the integrity or quality of the game itself. If Elon wanted to truly save D&D he would need to make it a private company and concentrate on quality products. That model would still provide a profitable enterprise but not the kinds of earnings that would satisfy rabid shareholders. Once you have to answer to hordes of shareholders, all considerations other than those which boost revenue go out the window.
Sure, that's why I asked if that would be the right move financially. Elon may be rich enough to eat the losses, but I'm not sure D&D as a brand and IP (which is where most of the money is, I assume) would do as well without that hype machine. I'm not coming to this with animosity, on the contrary. just a thought.
Pundit talks about WoTC not catering to D&D's core audience. I wonder if said core audience didn't move to other systems/ editions. Hopefully that pans out in the long run, but someone would need to weather the storm
The evidence seems to say NO, for the most part. Of course, old schoolers moved to the OSR, and some people have kept going that way as D&D became more and more insufferable. But Pathfinder hasn't gotten bigger in the last 10 years, rather much much smaller. EVERY bigger-size game that isn't D&D has lost participation, only indie games (mainly, overwhelmingly, the OSR) have actually had significant net growth over the last 10 years.
What this means is that you have a bunch of people who really liked 5e when we created it, and as the products became progressively (in both senses of the word) worse, those people either just stopped buying stuff and kept playing 5e with what they had (or possibly some 3rd party 5e stuff), or just stopped playing altogether.
It's very likely that a lot of those people would come back if things turned around.
Beyond that, though, when 5e came out its audience was mostly Millennials, who were the young-adult generation at the time.
Now it's Gen-Z, who are much more conservative, have much less agreeableness as a generational trait, and prize Authenticity as a value much higher than Virtue Signal Posturing like the Millennials did. They are a much better audience for a successor that takes the best of 5e and builds on that, than Millenials ever were for 5e itself. As I said before, the people who ended up being the customers for 5e by and large didn't get how it was supposed to work. 5e was the most modular, most easily adaptable D&D of all time, and virtually none of the millennial sheep made any use of that trait at all. They just wanted to do whatever Jeremy Crawford told them how to play.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:00:06 AMWhat I expect is that casual gamers will do so, the more D&D looks like mainstream Heroic Fantasy, and the less it looks like a lecture on Diversity combined with an Eat/Pray/Love tumblr-fantasy tourism simulator.
So why not go for the easy path and just re-release the 2024 books with different art? Mechanically, the 2024 versions are considerably improved over the 2014 versions.
Appendix N is the soul of D&D. Without it, you get the rot that we have. Not sure what the fix would be. Add short story snippets from the masters and include them in chapter headers with sources so that people new to them would get a teaser? Popular quotes from media that embrace the swords and sorcery feel? Elon levels of money and influence might get the kind of rights needed for that.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 09, 2024, 11:17:42 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:00:06 AMWhat I expect is that casual gamers will do so, the more D&D looks like mainstream Heroic Fantasy, and the less it looks like a lecture on Diversity combined with an Eat/Pray/Love tumblr-fantasy tourism simulator.
So why not go for the easy path and just re-release the 2024 books with different art? Mechanically, the 2024 versions are considerably improved over the 2014 versions.
Scotty's Rule as applied to marketing; if you oversell how big of a problem there is to fix, then the more impressive it is when you fix it.
Honestly, I've seen a vast amount of 2024's class fixes in various people's homebrew class fixes on GMBinder. The issues with 2014 5e (and the most efficacious fixes) are well known within the sphere of homebrew/designer circles. It honestly reads like the WotC design team took all the GMBinder options, sorted out the most used with an AI algorithm, and used the results as the new book.
Other than the basic problem of 5e having always been a largely soulless hodgepodge of rewritten/obscured 3e and 4E mechanics with little in the way of a true spine (hence the need for "rulings not rules"), yes, the 2024 version, outside of art, layout and maybe 10% of the non-rules fluff text, is vastly superior to the 2014 version.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2024, 12:22:39 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 09, 2024, 11:17:42 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:00:06 AMWhat I expect is that casual gamers will do so, the more D&D looks like mainstream Heroic Fantasy, and the less it looks like a lecture on Diversity combined with an Eat/Pray/Love tumblr-fantasy tourism simulator.
So why not go for the easy path and just re-release the 2024 books with different art? Mechanically, the 2024 versions are considerably improved over the 2014 versions.
Scotty's Rule as applied to marketing; if you oversell how big of a problem there is to fix, then the more impressive it is when you fix it.
Honestly, I've seen a vast amount of 2024's class fixes in various people's homebrew class fixes on GMBinder. The issues with 2014 5e (and the most efficacious fixes) are well known within the sphere of homebrew/designer circles. It honestly reads like the WotC design team took all the GMBinder options, sorted out the most used with an AI algorithm, and used the results as the new book.
Other than the basic problem of 5e having always been a largely soulless hodgepodge of rewritten/obscured 3e and 4E mechanics with little in the way of a true spine (hence the need for "rulings not rules"), yes, the 2024 version, outside of art, layout and maybe 10% of the non-rules fluff text, is vastly superior to the 2014 version.
Vastly superior is quite a claim to make seeing as how the DMG was just released and the MM still has not been released. Is this opinion coming from players who simply love the power boost? I prefer for the entire core of the game to be released and see some play and read some feedback from both players and dungeon masters before declaring superiority for anything.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2024, 08:29:25 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on December 08, 2024, 12:27:48 AMAn interesting possibility, though I have to ask does this mean for your historical authentic products would they be put on the back burner for the duration of your stay at WOTC?
In the unlikely event that Elon buys WotC, and the also unlikely event that he hired me to fix D&D, I suppose that my own projects would be on hold. Duty has its costs.
Bolding mine.
I know that this is just meant jokingly, but the next head of D&D can't just view it as a duty. If the person does not view it as a holy calling requiring the focus of their life at that moment, then it just ain't gonna work.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2024, 12:22:39 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 09, 2024, 11:17:42 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:00:06 AMWhat I expect is that casual gamers will do so, the more D&D looks like mainstream Heroic Fantasy, and the less it looks like a lecture on Diversity combined with an Eat/Pray/Love tumblr-fantasy tourism simulator.
So why not go for the easy path and just re-release the 2024 books with different art? Mechanically, the 2024 versions are considerably improved over the 2014 versions.
Scotty's Rule as applied to marketing; if you oversell how big of a problem there is to fix, then the more impressive it is when you fix it.
Honestly, I've seen a vast amount of 2024's class fixes in various people's homebrew class fixes on GMBinder. The issues with 2014 5e (and the most efficacious fixes) are well known within the sphere of homebrew/designer circles. It honestly reads like the WotC design team took all the GMBinder options, sorted out the most used with an AI algorithm, and used the results as the new book.
Other than the basic problem of 5e having always been a largely soulless hodgepodge of rewritten/obscured 3e and 4E mechanics with little in the way of a true spine (hence the need for "rulings not rules"), yes, the 2024 version, outside of art, layout and maybe 10% of the non-rules fluff text, is vastly superior to the 2014 version.
I'd be happy enough with the 2024 version without the crappy art. Of course, I don't buy for the art and we both seem to feel that the book's game contents are plenty servicable. It's like everyone here get's a chance to drive a well-made car but thier reviews can only focus on the fact that it's got a bad paint job.
Honestly, D&D is kinda dead, murdered by DEI and terminal wokeness ...
The freelancers, who are being paid a dime, are using, as they are wont to do, their notority, to fund their paersonal projects, through Kickstarter, and I will not condemned them ...
The Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro leadership has both failed D&D legacy (by libelling the late Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson ...) and betrayed its consumer base, by producing souless products, who are only aimed, at the weirdo who wrote them ...
At least, the OGL is forever, and WotC/Hasbro cannot seize my books and tell me how to play D&D, at my own table.
It is the end of an era, which peak clown world, yet laughing is a gift and being alive in Western countries has never been better ...
I will enjoy it, while it lasts ...
Quote from: yabaziou on December 09, 2024, 04:10:45 PMHonestly, D&D is kinda dead, murdered by DEI and terminal wokeness ...
The freelancers, who are being paid a dime, are using, as they are wont to do, their notority, to fund their paersonal projects, through Kickstarter, and I will not condemned them ...
The Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro leadership has both failed D&D legacy (by libelling the late Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson ...) and betrayed its consumer base, by producing souless products, who are only aimed, at the weirdo who wrote them ...
At least, the OGL is forever, and WotC/Hasbro cannot seize my books and tell me how to play D&D, at my own table.
It is the end of an era, which peak clown world, yet laughing is a gift and being alive in Western countries has never been better ...
I will enjoy it, while it lasts ...
You are obviously not qualified to pronounce death. D&D is alive and well (even if weirder than before).
I am, far more qualified, than the present (and failing) WotC/Hasbro leasership and creative team and you, HappyDaze ...
I do not know what you are high, but the D&D 2024 is the very defintion of creative bankruptcy, but if you like that, good for you, those books are not going to sellthemselves ...
Quote from: yabaziou on December 09, 2024, 05:52:48 PMthose books are not going to sellthemselves ...
No, they are not, but they aren't having any problems selling, so they've done something right.
But if you're more qualified, by all means apply for a position and show us what you can do.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:06:48 AMThe evidence seems to say NO, for the most part. Of course, old schoolers moved to the OSR, and some people have kept going that way as D&D became more and more insufferable. But Pathfinder hasn't gotten bigger in the last 10 years, rather much much smaller. EVERY bigger-size game that isn't D&D has lost participation, only indie games (mainly, overwhelmingly, the OSR) have actually had significant net growth over the last 10 years.
What this means is that you have a bunch of people who really liked 5e when we created it, and as the products became progressively (in both senses of the word) worse, those people either just stopped buying stuff and kept playing 5e with what they had (or possibly some 3rd party 5e stuff), or just stopped playing altogether.
Steadily reduced sales has been the case for every RPG edition ever. Once people have a big pile of current-edition books on their shelf, it becomes harder and harder to sell a new book to everyone. The player base gets into new and different variations. This was just as true of TSR, and every other major RPG company.
Over ten years, 5E players diversified into various homebrews and branch settings and third party products, so it has been progressively harder to sell any single D&D book to the majority of the market. This is exactly the edition treadmill. The past ten years from 2014 5E to now is a pretty long time for a new edition -- most RPGs go through the edition treadmill more quickly.
I have some idea about what I'd like to do with WotC for my own tastes, but I'm also pretty sure that would be a disaster financially. I have no illusions that my tastes are objectively shared by the majority of RPG players. If I wanted to run WotC as a successful business, I'd look for at least someone who has had a large-scale financial success in RPGs.
The best evidence I've seen has been Kickstarter, which has the most transparent sales numbers:
https://rpggeek.com/geeklist/280234/rpg-kickstarter-geeklist-tracking?itemid=9436297
Over the past few years, some of the biggest campaigns have been:
$9.5M : Avatar Legends RPG, 2021
$4.0M : The Crooked Moon (5E), 2023
$3.4M : Zombicide 2nd edition, 2019
$3.3M : Yokai Realms (5E), 2023
$2.6M : Obojima Tales (5E), 2023
$2.6M : Strongholds & Streaming (5E), 2018
$2.7M : Eldritch Hunt (5E), 2022
$2.5M : Fool's Gold (5E), 2021
$2.1M : Old Gods of Appallachia, 2022
$2.1M : Tanares RPG (5E), 2021
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 09, 2024, 11:17:42 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:00:06 AMWhat I expect is that casual gamers will do so, the more D&D looks like mainstream Heroic Fantasy, and the less it looks like a lecture on Diversity combined with an Eat/Pray/Love tumblr-fantasy tourism simulator.
So why not go for the easy path and just re-release the 2024 books with different art? Mechanically, the 2024 versions are considerably improved over the 2014 versions.
I disagree. They did correct a few things, but they also added stuff that will make the game worse.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2024, 11:17:46 AMQuote from: HappyDaze on December 09, 2024, 11:17:42 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:00:06 AMWhat I expect is that casual gamers will do so, the more D&D looks like mainstream Heroic Fantasy, and the less it looks like a lecture on Diversity combined with an Eat/Pray/Love tumblr-fantasy tourism simulator.
So why not go for the easy path and just re-release the 2024 books with different art? Mechanically, the 2024 versions are considerably improved over the 2014 versions.
I disagree. They did correct a few things, but they also added stuff that will make the game worse.
Examples? Besides the art, which I think we both agree is crap.
Quote from: zircher on December 09, 2024, 11:21:37 AMAppendix N is the soul of D&D. Without it, you get the rot that we have. Not sure what the fix would be. Add short story snippets from the masters and include them in chapter headers with sources so that people new to them would get a teaser? Popular quotes from media that embrace the swords and sorcery feel? Elon levels of money and influence might get the kind of rights needed for that.
I don't think appendix N is the soul of D&D; heroic fantasy is the soul of D&D. Appendix N happened to be a pretty good list of what constituted heroic fantasy at the time of the creation of the AD&D DMG. The list wouldn't be the same today, but the inclusion of a list wouldn't really be that important. What's important is to get to the Monomyth of Heroic Fantasy.
Quote from: jeff37923 on December 09, 2024, 12:43:17 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2024, 08:29:25 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on December 08, 2024, 12:27:48 AMAn interesting possibility, though I have to ask does this mean for your historical authentic products would they be put on the back burner for the duration of your stay at WOTC?
In the unlikely event that Elon buys WotC, and the also unlikely event that he hired me to fix D&D, I suppose that my own projects would be on hold. Duty has its costs.
Bolding mine.
I know that this is just meant jokingly, but the next head of D&D can't just view it as a duty. If the person does not view it as a holy calling requiring the focus of their life at that moment, then it just ain't gonna work.
I think that you're underestimating the significance of the word "duty".
Quote from: jhkim on December 10, 2024, 01:09:12 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:06:48 AMThe evidence seems to say NO, for the most part. Of course, old schoolers moved to the OSR, and some people have kept going that way as D&D became more and more insufferable. But Pathfinder hasn't gotten bigger in the last 10 years, rather much much smaller. EVERY bigger-size game that isn't D&D has lost participation, only indie games (mainly, overwhelmingly, the OSR) have actually had significant net growth over the last 10 years.
What this means is that you have a bunch of people who really liked 5e when we created it, and as the products became progressively (in both senses of the word) worse, those people either just stopped buying stuff and kept playing 5e with what they had (or possibly some 3rd party 5e stuff), or just stopped playing altogether.
Steadily reduced sales has been the case for every RPG edition ever. Once people have a big pile of current-edition books on their shelf, it becomes harder and harder to sell a new book to everyone. The player base gets into new and different variations. This was just as true of TSR, and every other major RPG company.
Over ten years, 5E players diversified into various homebrews and branch settings and third party products, so it has been progressively harder to sell any single D&D book to the majority of the market. This is exactly the edition treadmill. The past ten years from 2014 5E to now is a pretty long time for a new edition -- most RPGs go through the edition treadmill more quickly.
I have some idea about what I'd like to do with WotC for my own tastes, but I'm also pretty sure that would be a disaster financially. I have no illusions that my tastes are objectively shared by the majority of RPG players. If I wanted to run WotC as a successful business, I'd look for at least someone who has had a large-scale financial success in RPGs.
The best evidence I've seen has been Kickstarter, which has the most transparent sales numbers:
https://rpggeek.com/geeklist/280234/rpg-kickstarter-geeklist-tracking?itemid=9436297
Over the past few years, some of the biggest campaigns have been:
$9.5M : Avatar Legends RPG, 2021
$4.0M : The Crooked Moon (5E), 2023
$3.4M : Zombicide 2nd edition, 2019
$3.3M : Yokai Realms (5E), 2023
$2.6M : Obojima Tales (5E), 2023
$2.6M : Strongholds & Streaming (5E), 2018
$2.7M : Eldritch Hunt (5E), 2022
$2.5M : Fool's Gold (5E), 2021
$2.1M : Old Gods of Appallachia, 2022
$2.1M : Tanares RPG (5E), 2021
Your first mistake (well, probably far from the first, but the worst) is the idea that D&D should be written to the creator's "taste". If I'd done that while consulting for 5e, the game would not have been the success it was (be it because Mearls would have had the good sense to ignore me then, or if he'd followed my whims, either way).
That's a common problem for designers; for example its part of why Monte Cook, who had originally been involved with 5e's early design, had to go.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2024, 11:20:53 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on December 09, 2024, 12:43:17 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2024, 08:29:25 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on December 08, 2024, 12:27:48 AMAn interesting possibility, though I have to ask does this mean for your historical authentic products would they be put on the back burner for the duration of your stay at WOTC?
In the unlikely event that Elon buys WotC, and the also unlikely event that he hired me to fix D&D, I suppose that my own projects would be on hold. Duty has its costs.
Bolding mine.
I know that this is just meant jokingly, but the next head of D&D can't just view it as a duty. If the person does not view it as a holy calling requiring the focus of their life at that moment, then it just ain't gonna work.
I think that you're underestimating the significance of the word "duty".
I think that you both don't realize that you are talking to a veteran and woefully underestimate the deleterious affect upon your credibility that the Pundit persona generates.
Quote from: jeff37923 on December 10, 2024, 12:35:50 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 10, 2024, 11:20:53 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on December 09, 2024, 12:43:17 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 08, 2024, 08:29:25 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on December 08, 2024, 12:27:48 AMAn interesting possibility, though I have to ask does this mean for your historical authentic products would they be put on the back burner for the duration of your stay at WOTC?
In the unlikely event that Elon buys WotC, and the also unlikely event that he hired me to fix D&D, I suppose that my own projects would be on hold. Duty has its costs.
Bolding mine.
I know that this is just meant jokingly, but the next head of D&D can't just view it as a duty. If the person does not view it as a holy calling requiring the focus of their life at that moment, then it just ain't gonna work.
I think that you're underestimating the significance of the word "duty".
I think that you both don't realize that you are talking to a veteran and woefully underestimate the deleterious affect upon your credibility that the Pundit persona generates.
If you're a veteran you should know that while many people use the word "duty" flippantly, there are some people who don't.
I liked the mechanics for 5E. Why I stepped away from it was that the supplements just seemed like more rules pasted on a backdrop. If a solid campaign setting was made for it I would have no problem picking it up.
Let us grant that Elon Musk does, indeed, purchase Hasbro (or at least gains command of D&D in some capacity). Further, let us grant Pundit is made supreme overlord of D&D and has carte blanche to do as he pleases. I have two requests: 1) just turn off all the online shit. All of it. Refund people's money, mail them physical copies of everything they purchased, and just turn it off. 2) Take AD&D and all the notes that were half-assed turned into Unearthed Arcana, clean it all up with real editors and playtesters and no cocaine, release that as Dungeons & Dragons: The Penultimate Edition. Then evergreen that shit until the cows come home.
"When is the next version coming out?"
"Soon, it's still in development. Here is a badass supplement in the meantime."
Quote from: Brad on December 10, 2024, 10:39:56 PMLet us grant that Elon Musk does, indeed, purchase Hasbro (or at least gains command of D&D in some capacity). Further, let us grant Pundit is made supreme overlord of D&D and has carte blanche to do as he pleases. I have two requests: 1) just turn off all the online shit. All of it. Refund people's money, mail them physical copies of everything they purchased, and just turn it off. 2) Take AD&D and all the notes that were half-assed turned into Unearthed Arcana, clean it all up with real editors and playtesters and no cocaine, release that as Dungeons & Dragons: The Penultimate Edition. Then evergreen that shit until the cows come home.
"When is the next version coming out?"
"Soon, it's still in development. Here is a badass supplement in the meantime."
The thing is that there is a market for the "online shit"; if it's done right, it is a source of profit for D&D. So no, I wouldn't kill it, of course I would kill any notion of going purely online like their current VTT plan suggests.
Second, I said in the video I'd do a classic reprint(s). But no, that wouldn't take the place of a new edition.
Quote from: Brad on December 10, 2024, 10:39:56 PMThe Penultimate Edition
I do not think that word means what you think it means ...
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 11, 2024, 04:52:32 AMThe thing is that there is a market for the "online shit"; if it's done right, it is a source of profit for D&D. So no, I wouldn't kill it, of course I would kill any notion of going purely online like their current VTT plan suggests.
Second, I said in the video I'd do a classic reprint(s). But no, that wouldn't take the place of a new edition.
Just because there's a market for fentanyl doesn't mean you should continue to sell it. VTT is garbage and needs to be eradicated. I say this as someone who has been forced to play online most of the time now due to all my buddies living in different locations. If it's not in person, it is not the same thing.
Quote from: Zalman on December 11, 2024, 06:42:19 AMQuote from: Brad on December 10, 2024, 10:39:56 PMThe Penultimate Edition
I do not think that word means what you think it means ...
It means exactly what I meant it to mean.
Quote from: Brad on December 11, 2024, 09:09:08 AMJust because there's a market for fentanyl doesn't mean you should continue to sell it.
Wrong. So very wrong. You don't stop producing and selling something that has a need just because some people misuse it.
Quote from: Brad on December 11, 2024, 09:09:08 AMVTT is garbage and needs to be eradicated. I say this as someone who has been forced to play online most of the time now due to all my buddies living in different locations. If it's not in person, it is not the same thing.
I disagree. I'm in the same situation. The VTT is bit more work, but its far better than not playing or using Zoom. Of course I'm talking about a regular VTT, not the WotC VTT which will have animations and trash for cash that I don't want or need. I do think Wizards should leave that playing field to others.
Quote from: zircher on December 09, 2024, 11:21:37 AMAppendix N is the soul of D&D. Without it, you get the rot that we have. Not sure what the fix would be. Add short story snippets from the masters and include them in chapter headers with sources so that people new to them would get a teaser? Popular quotes from media that embrace the swords and sorcery feel? Elon levels of money and influence might get the kind of rights needed for that.
At some point, D&D stopped being ways to replicate/play out or imagine new ways of playing things out that happened in fiction, and then new fiction was written about D&D and it started to be its own self-referential thing. Then with some prestige, things like pulp fantasy which could have taken a chance because less likely.
I feel like D&D fiction could have/should have been more willing to take risks on smaller pulp novels that had the freedom to take risks on different kinds of sword and sorcery stories.
In some ways... Strixenhaven shouldn't be a surprise, if you think of harry potter as being the kind of "appendix N" thing that influenced it. On the other hand, it is a total mismatch for all the previous things that might have been associated with D&D.
There isn't much pulp fantasy of the appendix N type that has been made in the last 20 years, so it isn't really that surprising that the influence of those on D&D has waned.
I have given a lot of thought about what I would do if I were in charge of, or a part of D&D's development. And I gotta say, I think my engineering job is something I would rather do at this point in my life. At one point I had more ideas about what to do for D&D, but now I feel so disconnected that I don't really know what would be best for the game.
I still have a few ideas about what I would do with the older products that exist now, and some ideas about what I'd do for deals with artists.
Old products: I would set up an internal department to take all the older D&D products and upload/update them in newer layout software. Keep all the old art, work out deals for royalties, and then make them for sale as PDF bundles, and as print on demand. I know a lot of these are available on DTRPG but many are just scans without any new layouts or format updating which would be really nice. I'd do this for all editions, original D&D, 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e. There's fans of all of these and you shouldn't have to search through secondary market just to get stuff, not with today's technology.
Artists & Designers: There needs to be real art used in products, I hate the stuff that looks like it was photoshopped. The game needs art that looks like Frank Frazetta would have made. Real paintings. I feel like many artists have been screwed over by TSR and WoTC. I would make sure that artists get shared rights with their artwork, and could sell reproductions of any official art that gets used in D&D, the only real restriction being that they couldn't let other game companies use the art without permission.
For designers too, I would give people who came up with monsters shared rights to those monsters.
I would have an open contract kind of approach for settings material. For instance, as far as I'm aware, Dark Sun had material for 2nd edition and 4th edition. If someone wanted to write a Dark Sun setting book that was compatible for an edition of D&D that hadn't been published yet, people would be free to write one up, and it would still need to be reviewed, but if it makes the grade then it would be approved and allowed to be published. So I'd let people do this for setting material for all of the settings that exist for D&D, for all editions of D&D.
Less monster books. My own personal opinion is that you should have some basic rules for making stats for monsters in the DM's material, but that something like a monster manual isn't needed. I know its tradition but i would drop it. I personally feel like you only really need monster information included in adventures you publish, or in setting books. Because monsters exist in dungeons, adventures, and in settings, just having a big monster book outside of the context of the places you'd use the monsters feels too bloated and frankly a waste of a book.
Fewer spells. Likewise I feel like books with extra spells are not needed. I don't know how many spells get used, but I bet there's many spells that exist that never get used. You should have some rules to lay out how players can research/create their own spells, and leave it at that with a trimmed down list of spells.
Fewer classes. I think there's 12 classes in 5e PHB? Some others that have been added. I feel like it should be paired down to 6 classes, that way advancement/branching options can feel more substantial.
I dunno, I feel like I could help do statistical analysis for setting up systems and core rules, adventures and product lines I might not have that good of any ideas.
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 11, 2024, 02:22:37 PMQuote from: zircher on December 09, 2024, 11:21:37 AMAppendix N is the soul of D&D. Without it, you get the rot that we have. Not sure what the fix would be. Add short story snippets from the masters and include them in chapter headers with sources so that people new to them would get a teaser? Popular quotes from media that embrace the swords and sorcery feel? Elon levels of money and influence might get the kind of rights needed for that.
At some point, D&D stopped being ways to replicate/play out or imagine new ways of playing things out that happened in fiction, and then new fiction was written about D&D and it started to be its own self-referential thing. Then with some prestige, things like pulp fantasy which could have taken a chance because less likely.
I feel like D&D fiction could have/should have been more willing to take risks on smaller pulp novels that had the freedom to take risks on different kinds of sword and sorcery stories.
In some ways... Strixenhaven shouldn't be a surprise, if you think of harry potter as being the kind of "appendix N" thing that influenced it. On the other hand, it is a total mismatch for all the previous things that might have been associated with D&D.
There isn't much pulp fantasy of the appendix N type that has been made in the last 20 years, so it isn't really that surprising that the influence of those on D&D has waned.
You're not wrong as such. But the point is that WotC at present has veered massively away from the Heroic Fantasy genre. Bringing it back to that form will rectify most of the problem. I don't think D&D should be inspired by itself, it should be inspired by the aeons old tradition of heroic fantasy.
Harry Potter is largely a pastiche of A Wizard of Earthsea, which I think fits squarely in the heroic fantasy tradition. Games about playing (edit) hot mess barristas in Fantasy Seattle do not. I got the impression Strixhaven is more the latter.
Quote from: S'mon on December 12, 2024, 10:58:09 AMHarry Potter is largely a pastiche of A Wizard of Earthsea, which I think fits squarely in the heroic fantasy tradition. Games about playing hit mess barristas in Fantasy Seattle do not. I got the impression Strixhaven is more the latter.
Correct. Strixhaven is not really 'harry potter' except in the most superficial sense. It's actually a postmodern sexual degenerate soap opera.
I'm here for a product request - please bring back those cool boxes with maps and books.
Would the new CEO bring back any of the old campaign worlds? If you wan't my input (you don't) - bring back Mystara!
Quote from: dvar on December 12, 2024, 04:34:35 PMI'm here for a product request - please bring back those cool boxes with maps and books.
Would the new CEO bring back any of the old campaign worlds? If you wan't my input (you don't) - bring back Mystara!
Box sets have a lot more logistical challenges. Any box set would be likely to be quite expensive.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 12, 2024, 07:37:29 PMQuote from: dvar on December 12, 2024, 04:34:35 PMI'm here for a product request - please bring back those cool boxes with maps and books.
Would the new CEO bring back any of the old campaign worlds? If you wan't my input (you don't) - bring back Mystara!
Box sets have a lot more logistical challenges. Any box set would be likely to be quite expensive.
Hopefully not in the WFRP 3e $100-box range.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 12, 2024, 07:37:29 PMQuote from: dvar on December 12, 2024, 04:34:35 PMI'm here for a product request - please bring back those cool boxes with maps and books.
Would the new CEO bring back any of the old campaign worlds? If you wan't my input (you don't) - bring back Mystara!
Box sets have a lot more logistical challenges. Any box set would be likely to be quite expensive.
Here in UK we get hit by 20% tax on boxes, whereas books are 0%. There are some great box sets out there but I think they are often near-loss-leaders for the publishers. I have no idea how Free League can do the Dragonbane or Forbidden Lands full rules box sets at the prices I paid for them. They recently had a sale with the DB box for 20 pounds. WoTC do box starter sets by really skimping on paper quality etc, & sell a *lot*, so it's more understandable.
I am pretty sure Free League survives with its product mix and government subsidies.
Quote from: S'mon on December 13, 2024, 07:29:23 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 12, 2024, 07:37:29 PMQuote from: dvar on December 12, 2024, 04:34:35 PMI'm here for a product request - please bring back those cool boxes with maps and books.
Would the new CEO bring back any of the old campaign worlds? If you wan't my input (you don't) - bring back Mystara!
Box sets have a lot more logistical challenges. Any box set would be likely to be quite expensive.
Here in UK we get hit by 20% tax on boxes, whereas books are 0%. There are some great box sets out there but I think they are often near-loss-leaders for the publishers. I have no idea how Free League can do the Dragonbane or Forbidden Lands full rules box sets at the prices I paid for them. They recently had a sale with the DB box for 20 pounds. WoTC do box starter sets by really skimping on paper quality etc, & sell a *lot*, so it's more understandable.
The only reason to do a box is if you have some 3D elements you need to include (dice, minis, etc.).
Box sets made sense in the early days of D&D when sets of polyhedral dice weren't as ubiquitous as they are today.
But if all you're after is a combined set of maps and booklets, it makes far more sense to just shrink wrap those together and maintain the "book" designation.
Indeed, the only box sets I've seen that make sense recently have been for Battletech with 4-12 of their line of 3D minis included along with maps, dice, reference cards and the rules booklet.
I think Hasbro/WotC/TSR's IPs should be released into public domain so that fans can steward them. The modern rpg landscape feels dead and lifeless to me because it's owned by soulless corpos who arbitrarily slaughter creativity and history. The only people I trust to maintain games are passionate fans. That's a lot easier to do when they can freely make new editions of classic IPs and get paid for doing it.
Corporate copyright is a cancer on the arts.