Quote from: Mishihari on April 14, 2023, 03:56:03 PM
I'm pretty sure Gary specifically said that Tolkein was not an influence for D&D.  Kinda a moot point though, as Tolkein was certainly an influence on the things he cited as having an influence on D&D.

I just roll my eyes when people say work that is blatantly at least partially inspired by a thing, is not inspired by thing.

It's like saying you're not inspired by evil old Lovecraft, then listing Barker and King as inspirations.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 14, 2023, 03:56:03 PM
I'm pretty sure Gary specifically said that Tolkein was not an influence for D&D.  Kinda a moot point though, as Tolkein was certainly an influence on the things he cited as having an influence on D&D.

Yeah, he just by coincidence created from thin air a big and hairy footed race of happy-go-lucky semi-humans that don't wear shoes, are half the height of the average human, love food and smoke tobacco called hobbits...

Greetings!

Well, I certainly have huge respect and appreciation for Gary Gygax.

However, if he ever did say that Tolkien didn't have any influence on D&D, then Gary was lying, or delusional.

As has been mentioned, there could be more motives here for even saying such by Gary--despite the absolute abundance of artistic, flavour, narrative, and stylistic evidence that Tolkien had *IMMENSE* influence on D&D.

Anyone that doesn't think Tolkien had an *IMMENSE* influence on D&D must simply be an obtuse moron, honestly.

It is frustrating though, intellectually, that people get caught up in their own delusions, misconceptions, preferences, and fucking egos. Slow down, and comprehend more than one data point at the same time. Tolkien was not the only IMMENSE influence on D&D. I don't care to try and analyze the exact degree or percentage of influence. Just suffice to say, Tolkien was an IMMENSE influence. However, not the only influence. Conan, Burroughs, Vance, Leiber, Moorcock, Three Hearts & Three Lions, Arthurian Mythology, were all IMMENSE influences. ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Appendix N right there displays many of the influences, as well.

There were many influences on D&D. Why isn't that okay? It is what it is.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 14, 2023, 04:33:34 PM
Greetings!

Well, I certainly have huge respect and appreciation for Gary Gygax.

However, if he ever did say that Tolkien didn't have any influence on D&D, then Gary was lying, or delusional.

As has been mentioned, there could be more motives here for even saying such by Gary--despite the absolute abundance of artistic, flavour, narrative, and stylistic evidence that Tolkien had *IMMENSE* influence on D&D.

Anyone that doesn't think Tolkien had an *IMMENSE* influence on D&D must simply be an obtuse moron, honestly.

It is frustrating though, intellectually, that people get caught up in their own delusions, misconceptions, preferences, and fucking egos. Slow down, and comprehend more than one data point at the same time. Tolkien was not the only IMMENSE influence on D&D. I don't care to try and analyze the exact degree or percentage of influence. Just suffice to say, Tolkien was an IMMENSE influence. However, not the only influence. Conan, Burroughs, Vance, Leiber, Moorcock, Three Hearts & Three Lions, Arthurian Mythology, were all IMMENSE influences. ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Appendix N right there displays many of the influences, as well.

There were many influences on D&D. Why isn't that okay? It is what it is.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

IMHO What's false is to say D&D drifted from LotR, because -despite the obvious influence it had on the game- D&D wasn't and isn't trying to recreate that world for the players to immerse in.

Let's remember that the Halflings were originally called Hobbits, and their description puts the lie to D&D having nothing to thank LotR.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2023, 01:47:50 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 14, 2023, 01:32:41 PM
If we are going to talk about fantasy RPGs drifting away from Tolkein, why hasn't anyone brought up the significant Cease & Desist letter given to TSR in 1977 by the Tolkein Estate? Surely that gave any division previously in existence Seven League Boots.

Not that D&D was really trying to emulate playing in LotR's world before that, the ONLY resemblance were the 3 demi-human races names. As others have pointed much better than me in my first post in the thread D&D was and is it's own pastiche of Tolkien + a bunch of other influences, and those other influences IMHO have always had a MUCH bigger impact than Tolkien.

I agree with your main point, but I can think of a few more Tolkien-isms in D&D:

Balor (balrog)
Cloak of Elvenkind
Ents (treants)
Half orcs
Mithril
Staff of Magi retributive strike

It's possible these came from sources that pre-date Tolkien, but they probably entered D&D through LOTR.

Any others?

Quote from: Grognard GM on April 14, 2023, 03:35:52 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 14, 2023, 01:57:38 PM
Your sarcasm is correct for 2023, but you have a severe case of early onset senility if you think that your scenario is the same as TSR back in 1977.

I do not. The Tolkien Estate were being overly litigious. I mean it's not even like papa Tolkien invented his races.

My apologies then. I read your statement wrong.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2023, 04:38:31 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 14, 2023, 04:33:34 PM
Anyone that doesn't think Tolkien had an *IMMENSE* influence on D&D must simply be an obtuse moron, honestly.

It is frustrating though, intellectually, that people get caught up in their own delusions, misconceptions, preferences, and fucking egos. Slow down, and comprehend more than one data point at the same time. Tolkien was not the only IMMENSE influence on D&D.

IMHO What's false is to say D&D drifted from LotR, because -despite the obvious influence it had on the game- D&D wasn't and isn't trying to recreate that world for the players to immerse in.

Let's remember that the Halflings were originally called Hobbits, and their description puts the lie to D&D having nothing to thank LotR.

Right. Sorry - I admitted back in the reply #6 to Baron that the thread title was poorly phrased.

What I was trying to get at is that there are a lot of Tolkienesque elements that are still very commonly used - like elves, dwarves, orcs, halflings, and others. However, the conception of these elements has changed to the point that it feeds back to how Middle Earth RPGs work - like in ICE's "Middle Earth Roleplaying" and Cubicle 7's "Adventures in Middle Earth".

This is relevant to me in that I feel like if I do a Middle Earth game, I really want to distance myself from these - because players are likely to think of elves more like D&D elves rather than Tolkien elves.

It's semantics, and it's probably at least half because of legal reasons, but if I recall correctly, the idea that D&D wasn't "inspired" by the Lord of the Rings is based on:

- He's talking about major inspirations.
- The source of a lot of the things are more The Hobbit than the LotR.
- Gygax personally wasn't all that into LotR, but his players were.

In other words, he's not denying that the direct influences are in there.  He's minimizing them, and saying that he got pushed into doing that.  Which could be true.

I mean, there's no way the Shannara series is like it is without LotR coming first.  D&D is a lot less like LotR than it is.  However, being a game, the direct names creep in transparently.  Those early players didn't want to play halflings, they explicitly wanted to play hobbits.  It probably didn't occur to anyone at the time that they were in a new medium, that would be held to the same standards as film, literature, etc.

Quote from: jhkim on April 14, 2023, 05:11:53 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2023, 04:38:31 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 14, 2023, 04:33:34 PM
Anyone that doesn't think Tolkien had an *IMMENSE* influence on D&D must simply be an obtuse moron, honestly.

It is frustrating though, intellectually, that people get caught up in their own delusions, misconceptions, preferences, and fucking egos. Slow down, and comprehend more than one data point at the same time. Tolkien was not the only IMMENSE influence on D&D.

IMHO What's false is to say D&D drifted from LotR, because -despite the obvious influence it had on the game- D&D wasn't and isn't trying to recreate that world for the players to immerse in.

Let's remember that the Halflings were originally called Hobbits, and their description puts the lie to D&D having nothing to thank LotR.

Right. Sorry - I admitted back in the reply #6 to Baron that the thread title was poorly phrased.

What I was trying to get at is that there are a lot of Tolkienesque elements that are still very commonly used - like elves, dwarves, orcs, halflings, and others. However, the conception of these elements has changed to the point that it feeds back to how Middle Earth RPGs work - like in ICE's "Middle Earth Roleplaying" and Cubicle 7's "Adventures in Middle Earth".

This is relevant to me in that I feel like if I do a Middle Earth game, I really want to distance myself from these - because players are likely to think of elves more like D&D elves rather than Tolkien elves.

We're on agreement here, just wanna (pedantically) point out that of those you explicitly name ONLY the hobbits are clearly Tolkieneske AFAIK, while the others existed centuries before The Professor was born. But as Aglondir correctly points out a little above your comment those aren't the ONLY Tolkieneske influences found on the game.

Correct, Tolkien influenced RPGs and now RPGs are influencing how Tolkien's world works in an RPG. So, if -as you stated- you want to run/play in a game that's Tolkien Authentic, you have your work cut out for you. Now you have to reverse engineer the Tolkien Authentic races, classes, magic, etc into the RPG.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 14, 2023, 05:07:27 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 14, 2023, 01:47:50 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 14, 2023, 01:32:41 PM
If we are going to talk about fantasy RPGs drifting away from Tolkein, why hasn't anyone brought up the significant Cease & Desist letter given to TSR in 1977 by the Tolkein Estate? Surely that gave any division previously in existence Seven League Boots.

Not that D&D was really trying to emulate playing in LotR's world before that, the ONLY resemblance were the 3 demi-human races names. As others have pointed much better than me in my first post in the thread D&D was and is it's own pastiche of Tolkien + a bunch of other influences, and those other influences IMHO have always had a MUCH bigger impact than Tolkien.

I agree with your main point, but I can think of a few more Tolkien-isms in D&D:

Balor (balrog)
Cloak of Elvenkind
Ents (treants)
Half orcs
Mithril
Staff of Magi retributive strike

It's possible these came from sources that pre-date Tolkien, but they probably entered D&D through LOTR.

Any others?

I bet you can find others in the older editions, probably more in the newer ones, I stand corrected.

Gary was very specific that his adventure where Ganstaff the wizard tasks Prudo the Halfling to set out for Firestorm Peak, so he can destroy Nerull's Ring Of True Invisibility; was an 100% original concept.

I always saw Tolkien as Tolkien anything that followed, with the exception of MERP drifted very much away from the original (as was pointed out).

D&D changed the work to suit its own style so it was always more, 'post' Tolkien.

QuoteI do not. The Tolkien Estate were being overly litigious. I mean it's not even like papa Tolkien invented his races.

I mean IIRC the suit banned TSR from using hobbits which were distinctly Tolkien invented term and race.
And even then TSR halflings stayed quite clear, since TE could not claim this term as it existen in Brittish folklore before.

Same with ents/treants and balrogs/balor.

QuoteI'm pretty sure Gary specifically said that Tolkein was not an influence for D&D.  Kinda a moot point though, as Tolkein was certainly an influence on the things he cited as having an influence on D&D.

I mean it certainly was influence to some degree - see fucking halflings - and see Gary putting Tolkien in appendix N - but not as much as people thought. Specifically Gary Elves were more taken from folklore and folklore inspired elves, than from Tolkien more mythological ljusalf.

QuoteIt's like saying you're not inspired by evil old Lovecraft, then listing Barker and King as inspirations.

I could totally do it. There are plenty of King-ian elements I could took inspiration that are in no way Lovecraftian.
In fact probably vast majority of things.

QuoteHowever, if he ever did say that Tolkien didn't have any influence on D&D, then Gary was lying, or delusional.

As has been mentioned, there could be more motives here for even saying such by Gary--despite the absolute abundance of artistic, flavour, narrative, and stylistic evidence that Tolkien had *IMMENSE* influence on D&D.

Anyone that doesn't think Tolkien had an *IMMENSE* influence on D&D must simply be an obtuse moron, honestly.

I doubt Gary said that Tolkien had no influence. He put Tolkien in Appendix N that's kinda clear.
I think he said his elves and dwarves were not Tolkienian but took from same sources Tolkien took his elves and dwarves - Northern European Folklore, and more inspired by faerie fantasy of Anderson than Tolkien - things like elves having no immortal souls, and living in very elusive enchanted places, and never sleeping - that's not Tolkien.

So I think your IMMENSE claim is vastly overrated Shark - and I'll take my moron badge with honor.
Immense influence for me means being top-3 essential sources the game is based on.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 19, 2023, 10:14:45 AM

Quote from: SHARK on April 14, 2023, 04:33:34 PM
However, if he ever did say that Tolkien didn't have any influence on D&D, then Gary was lying, or delusional.

As has been mentioned, there could be more motives here for even saying such by Gary--despite the absolute abundance of artistic, flavour, narrative, and stylistic evidence that Tolkien had *IMMENSE* influence on D&D.

Anyone that doesn't think Tolkien had an *IMMENSE* influence on D&D must simply be an obtuse moron, honestly.

I doubt Gary said that Tolkien had no influence. He put Tolkien in Appendix N that's kinda clear.
I think he said his elves and dwarves were not Tolkienian but took from same sources Tolkien took his elves and dwarves - Northern European Folklore, and more inspired by faerie fantasy of Anderson than Tolkien - things like elves having no immortal souls, and living in very elusive enchanted places, and never sleeping - that's not Tolkien.

Does it say in D&D that elves have no immortal souls? I'd be surprised. Elves in Tolkien are known for living in places like Rivendell and Lothlorien, which I'd say count as elusive and enchanted. As for not sleeping -- that is also in Tolkien, which was highlighted when Legolas was chasing after Merry and Pippin, and he could even walk while sleeping.

QuoteHe [Legolas] could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of Elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.

Without Tolkien, elves in popular culture were known more for making toys at the North Pole or fixing shoes -- not at all using longbows and longswords and fighting orcs. Though to be fair, while I've read some Poul Anderson, I don't recall his elves. Are there any specific works you can suggest that have elves like D&D elves?

Quote from: jhkim on April 19, 2023, 11:56:23 AM

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 19, 2023, 10:14:45 AM

Quote from: SHARK on April 14, 2023, 04:33:34 PM
However, if he ever did say that Tolkien didn't have any influence on D&D, then Gary was lying, or delusional.

As has been mentioned, there could be more motives here for even saying such by Gary--despite the absolute abundance of artistic, flavour, narrative, and stylistic evidence that Tolkien had *IMMENSE* influence on D&D.

Anyone that doesn't think Tolkien had an *IMMENSE* influence on D&D must simply be an obtuse moron, honestly.

I doubt Gary said that Tolkien had no influence. He put Tolkien in Appendix N that's kinda clear.
I think he said his elves and dwarves were not Tolkienian but took from same sources Tolkien took his elves and dwarves - Northern European Folklore, and more inspired by faerie fantasy of Anderson than Tolkien - things like elves having no immortal souls, and living in very elusive enchanted places, and never sleeping - that's not Tolkien.

Does it say in D&D that elves have no immortal souls? I'd be surprised. Elves in Tolkien are known for living in places like Rivendell and Lothlorien, which I'd say count as elusive and enchanted. As for not sleeping -- that is also in Tolkien, which was highlighted when Legolas was chasing after Merry and Pippin, and he could even walk while sleeping.

QuoteHe [Legolas] could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of Elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.

Without Tolkien, elves in popular culture were known more for making toys at the North Pole or fixing shoes -- not at all using longbows and longswords and fighting orcs. Though to be fair, while I've read some Poul Anderson, I don't recall his elves. Are there any specific works you can suggest that have elves like D&D elves?

In folklore, Elves, being part of the Fearies, lived in Underhill, which is obviously the inspiration for Tolkien's Rivendell and Lothlorien.

It's been a while since I read Poul Anderson The Queen of Air and Darkness right? IIRC what humans call fairies there also lives in a place like Underhill, but IIRC it's more due to the aliens reading the human's minds and projecting images from their imagination than a real place.