Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 03, 2024, 04:50:47 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 03, 2024, 03:54:28 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on December 28, 2023, 07:33:14 PMBut what about an indy designer, a one-man DIY show, who would like quality art, but never would even have the funds to hire a professional artist in the first place, because the investment-to-profit ratio would make it impractical to even have paid art?

This person now has a tool to add aesthetics to a game that never could have in the past.  It's not a threat to visual artists, and it gives the little guy a step up.

So its ok to steal someone elses stuff if you cant afford it?

This "tool" is scraping art from real artists and cobbling it together. Its a threat to artists and writers.

Humans have been copying each other's art since forever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Land

I appreciate that AI can do it faster and pump out a ton of stuff  compared to just a handful of artists. But also, we're looking at a technology shift like digital music. Artists are going to have to adapt, because the genie is already out of the bottle, and there are developers working on the common limitations and issues with AI art and writing.
I can't see a pleasant solution that will make everyone happy.

Oh man I CANNOT understand how Greg Land still makes comics professionally.  Straight up traces WWE wrestlers and pornstars and doesn't render backgrounds.  He is to comics what cover bands are to music.   

I think that long term, AI tools will be like the calculator. If you are a skilled and talented DnD creator then the tools will enhance your output and make you even more creative/productive.

The downside is there will be a lot more mediocre stuff released into the wild. AI will never be super creative without the initial input/spark from the human who has the artistic vision.

I have actually built an AI DnD character creator tool with my brother, because we hated how disempowering most AI tools are (very simple input, boring output, hardly any control, just farts out 'something')

Our idea is to provide inspiration at every step of the character building process, and works more as an inspiration tool rather then just outputting the final product. You get to be involved in the step by step process of generating a complex and interesting character.

As well, it also offers creating characters by building their lifepath in a interactive story that outputs your character at the end. 

Give it a whirl! https://charactercomposer.com/

Quote from: Wisithir on December 31, 2023, 05:36:31 PM
Machines are not a threat to humans producing genuinely creative content. They will obsolete shovelware writers that produce  little of any value. There be less humans industry because they are no longer needed to produce unplayable trash for virtue signalers buy and display. Good riddance. Having more crappy writers does not due the hobby any favors, and having the bottom fall out from it will not effect the low volume of high quality content.

Yes.  It's penny dreadful all over again.  Always been a market for mass-produced crap, always will be. And it will take a lot more than a million monkeys on a million typewriters to do better in that realm.  Doesn't mean it can't happen occasionally or that someone/something in the mass-produced crap category can't grow into something better.  Just don't bank on it 99.9999% of the time. 

Quote from: RPG Composer on January 05, 2024, 07:37:44 AM
I think that long term, AI tools will be like the calculator. If you are a skilled and talented DnD creator then the tools will enhance your output and make you even more creative/productive.

The downside is there will be a lot more mediocre stuff released into the wild. AI will never be super creative without the initial input/spark from the human who has the artistic vision.

I have actually built an AI DnD character creator tool with my brother, because we hated how disempowering most AI tools are (very simple input, boring output, hardly any control, just farts out 'something')

Our idea is to provide inspiration at every step of the character building process, and works more as an inspiration tool rather then just outputting the final product. You get to be involved in the step by step process of generating a complex and interesting character.

As well, it also offers creating characters by building their lifepath in a interactive story that outputs your character at the end. 

Give it a whirl! https://charactercomposer.com/

I experimented a bit with making character backstory creator.

I had trouble getting it to use all the parameters I put in. It just kinda does what it wants.

While it is kind of interesting to see, AI draws on other sources to aggregate fake intelligence. Thus it is incapable of producing novelty and pushing the envelope. What it does is regurgitate mediocrity.

It can't get a hunch and go on a feeling that it is working toward something truly cool and novel - It's just hit or miss.

Consider how AI is already being used to direct you toward things on social media. Often it directs you toward lameness. While you may have been having an interesting idea in your head, once you click over to the lame, your previous wondrous idea may just slip away and be lost. Yet, you may become programmed into a being a level 20 Cat Lady via the memes and GIFs they keep showing you.

While you think you are doing the programming, it will be doing the programming on you, and you will become pathetic.

Quote from: Omega on January 03, 2024, 03:54:28 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on December 28, 2023, 07:33:14 PMBut what about an indy designer, a one-man DIY show, who would like quality art, but never would even have the funds to hire a professional artist in the first place, because the investment-to-profit ratio would make it impractical to even have paid art?

This person now has a tool to add aesthetics to a game that never could have in the past.  It's not a threat to visual artists, and it gives the little guy a step up.

So its ok to steal someone elses stuff if you cant afford it?

This "tool" is scraping art from real artists and cobbling it together. Its a threat to artists and writers.

It's not any more stealing than I am stealing when I looked at various photos of students to make student ID pictures for my RPG.

This image, and over 40 like it, I made by hand, each picture used between 3 and 6 reference photos of students of the 1980s, plus some original ideas from my mind, and intuition.  The AI that I use for fantasy artworks in the same way; it doesn't just put together a Frankenstein collage of others' material.

use AI as a tool nothing more. It's at the level of Idiot Child and it can do art fairly well but the nuances of a GOOD RPG product it is utterly lost on how to pull off encounter balancing, treasure allocation, and enviornment pathing (Why does a tribe goto X instead of Y).


Overall, in 5 years it'll get better but it will still be unable to replace humans fulltime.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 28, 2023, 10:01:52 PM
I'd read that a lot of artists are doing something to their art that humans can't see but it makes it problematic for AI to scrape. So maybe AI art will progress slower than we think.

No such thing unless you layer the image. And even that might not work.

What I have seen is artists defacing their art with huge watermarks that actually make it impossible to see the image. I just skip those artists or leave a comment complimenting them on their watermark. Let me know when thry post some real art.

One artist had "DO NOT STEAL" printed over and over and over and over on a piece. I was so pissed off I went through and hand erased it all just out of spite. Ive done that on a few other pieces defaced by artists.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 28, 2023, 10:57:42 PMslander of his own writers (like Harlan Ellison)

Ellison was a crook in his own right and took awards and payments for other peoples works. He also stole plots from other older writers and then made a business of suing people for ideas that were never his.

I knew a few writers and they had nothing good to say of Ellison other than he was good at being a fraud and getting away with it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 29, 2023, 12:13:58 AM

Didn't I share here that ChatGPT doesn't generate Nazis as an evil faction but does generate commie scum?

It also, can't keep track of what you have instructed it to do for long, you have to keep reminding it of the constraints. It also fails at math at times.

Because they keep trying to make it "safe".

There'll be some bots much better than that... But not within the reach of the public, you'll find them in Disney and similar corporations that can pay to have one that really works.

As for using it to generate RPG content:

Go ask it to generate a d20 random generator for whatever and see what it does, you can use it for that but it's a multi-step process, with you collating the outputs.

PLUS, whatever it generates is owned by the corporation not you, go read the TOS.

As I keep saying, its a glorified ELIZA using the net as its data directory. Badly.

And to get these programs, they sure as hell aint AI, to work you have to put in alot of work otherwise they just spit out badly copy/paste collages. And sometimes do it anyhow.

Quote from: Omega on January 03, 2024, 03:54:28 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on December 28, 2023, 07:33:14 PMBut what about an indy designer, a one-man DIY show, who would like quality art, but never would even have the funds to hire a professional artist in the first place, because the investment-to-profit ratio would make it impractical to even have paid art?

This person now has a tool to add aesthetics to a game that never could have in the past.  It's not a threat to visual artists, and it gives the little guy a step up.

So its ok to steal someone elses stuff if you cant afford it?

This "tool" is scraping art from real artists and cobbling it together. Its a threat to artists and writers.

Greetings!

Hmmm...how are people stealing other people's work, Omega?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on January 05, 2024, 11:57:25 AM

Quote from: RPG Composer on January 05, 2024, 07:37:44 AM
I think that long term, AI tools will be like the calculator. If you are a skilled and talented DnD creator then the tools will enhance your output and make you even more creative/productive.

The downside is there will be a lot more mediocre stuff released into the wild. AI will never be super creative without the initial input/spark from the human who has the artistic vision.

I have actually built an AI DnD character creator tool with my brother, because we hated how disempowering most AI tools are (very simple input, boring output, hardly any control, just farts out 'something')

Our idea is to provide inspiration at every step of the character building process, and works more as an inspiration tool rather then just outputting the final product. You get to be involved in the step by step process of generating a complex and interesting character.

As well, it also offers creating characters by building their lifepath in a interactive story that outputs your character at the end. 

Give it a whirl! https://charactercomposer.com/

I experimented a bit with making character backstory creator.

I had trouble getting it to use all the parameters I put in. It just kinda does what it wants.

I did a simple setup: Insect-centaur scientist who likes shiny objects.

It did pretty good.

In 5 years....

Quote from: Laz on January 05, 2024, 07:04:32 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 03, 2024, 04:50:47 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 03, 2024, 03:54:28 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on December 28, 2023, 07:33:14 PMBut what about an indy designer, a one-man DIY show, who would like quality art, but never would even have the funds to hire a professional artist in the first place, because the investment-to-profit ratio would make it impractical to even have paid art?

This person now has a tool to add aesthetics to a game that never could have in the past.  It's not a threat to visual artists, and it gives the little guy a step up.

So its ok to steal someone elses stuff if you cant afford it?

This "tool" is scraping art from real artists and cobbling it together. Its a threat to artists and writers.

Humans have been copying each other's art since forever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Land

I appreciate that AI can do it faster and pump out a ton of stuff  compared to just a handful of artists. But also, we're looking at a technology shift like digital music. Artists are going to have to adapt, because the genie is already out of the bottle, and there are developers working on the common limitations and issues with AI art and writing.
I can't see a pleasant solution that will make everyone happy.

Oh man I CANNOT understand how Greg Land still makes comics professionally.  Straight up traces WWE wrestlers and pornstars and doesn't render backgrounds.  He is to comics what cover bands are to music.

Back in the d20 heyday Avalanche Press got a lot of attention for their covers of scantily clad women, and a large number were basically from Playboy, but with clothes changed and such

Quote from: Omega on January 05, 2024, 11:52:20 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 28, 2023, 10:57:42 PMslander of his own writers (like Harlan Ellison)

Ellison was a crook in his own right and took awards and payments for other peoples works. He also stole plots from other older writers and then made a business of suing people for ideas that were never his.

I knew a few writers and they had nothing good to say of Ellison other than he was good at being a fraud and getting away with it.

Got any proof of your claim?