Of course it makes a difference whether it's a one-shot or campaign play.  The two are completely different things.

You invite someone over for a one-shot Haunted House adventure and they burn it down that's just useless shitbaggery, they could have just said No and saved everybody's time.

Quote from: Nexus;941872What does it mean?

A shitty sandbox.

Quote from: rgrove0172;941809Oh I don't expect anyone to budge from their stance, only to recognize mine as having value.

Honestly though its hard for me to imagine playing in some of these guys games the way they describe them. I say that respectfully with no condemnation. I simply assume at least a general plotline in any game. Im not sure I would be interested in playing otherwise. When someone asks info about a game Im running I cant imagine simply giving a vague description of the setting only with no hint at what is involved or the direction the action might take.

"Your soldiers in WWII in France looking for a shipment of Nazi stolen gold"
"Your investigators in New York in the 1930s trying to find a serial killer"
"Your the crew of an asteroid mining ship caught up in political intrigue during an uprising on Mars"
"Your a group of medieval era fantasy adventurers exploring dungeons and looking for treasure"

From what Im hearing these are already too limiting for some.

Some of those could be campaign play, others seem like just storylines.
"Your soldiers in WWII in France looking for a shipment of Nazi stolen gold" - Yay, we found it, now what?  Do we have the option of stealing it and going AWOL, or if we planned on not turning it in should we not have shown up to play?

Instead of..."You're investigators in New York in the 1930s trying to find a serial killer"
Why not..."You're PI's in New York in the 1930s."  The fact that there's a serial killer is Setting Detail.  Contacts and other investigations might lead the characters to cross paths with the Serial Killer, or the characters may find their own goals and decide to pursue the Serial Killer because then they'll be the most famous PIs in New York, or at least among those in the know, which might put them on the radar of the Rich and Powerful.

Instead of..."You're the crew of an asteroid mining ship caught up in political intrigue during an uprising on Mars."
Why not..."You're the crew of an asteroid mining ship."  Setting detail will establish that times are tough and uncertain due to a current uprising on Mars.

Of course "You're a group of medieval era fantasy adventurers exploring dungeons and looking for treasure". is just you being "clever" again, insinuating that the default assumption of D&D isn't any different than your plotting.  
The way some people play D&D, You're Right.  Genre Play is Genre Play, period and D&D's "We're all dungeoncrawlers" at this point is a gaming genre.  

However, even in the very first Ur-campaigns of D&D, play expanded beyond the dungeon paradigm very quickly, so claiming that is the default plot assumption is simply incorrect.

All you really need is
1. Prepped Situations that the players could get involved with.  Really no different than "What plotline do you guys want to play" except it's the characters choosing organically by roleplaying their character's goals.
2. Contacts.  Make sure through Chargen that players know people.  Real setting people, not the "I know a guy" Edge, a Contacts Feat or other abstract OOC shenanigans, but god-honest sentient beings they know.
3. Rumor Tables.
4. Roleplaying.  They roleplay their characters doing their thing.  You roleplay the NPCs doing their thing.

Put it all together and your campaign ends up looking like a web.  There's lot of potential enemies and allies moving around doing their things, the PCs are moving around doing their things, and threads between the two will bring them to each other's notice.  Not a single Plot prepped, years of adventure.

Quote from: Nexus;941881"Its a nice day for a Red Wedding"

I lol'd.

Quote from: CRKrueger;941911Some of those could be campaign play, others seem like just storylines.
"Your soldiers in WWII in France looking for a shipment of Nazi stolen gold" - Yay, we found it, now what?  Do we have the option of stealing it and going AWOL, or if we planned on not turning it in should we not have shown up to play?

Instead of..."You're investigators in New York in the 1930s trying to find a serial killer"
Why not..."You're PI's in New York in the 1930s."  The fact that there's a serial killer is Setting Detail.  Contacts and other investigations might lead the characters to cross paths with the Serial Killer, or the characters may find their own goals and decide to pursue the Serial Killer because then they'll be the most famous PIs in New York, or at least among those in the know, which might put them on the radar of the Rich and Powerful.

Instead of..."You're the crew of an asteroid mining ship caught up in political intrigue during an uprising on Mars."
Why not..."You're the crew of an asteroid mining ship."  Setting detail will establish that times are tough and uncertain due to a current uprising on Mars.

There's no "reason" to take either course besides preferences. Some people want a more focused game with options laid out at the beginning. Especially if the setting is going to push things hard in a certain direction anyway. But yeah, you can stretch many premises into something Open World or at least that looks like it. Just some don't find that appealing or just like either sort of game.

QuoteOf course "You're a group of medieval era fantasy adventurers exploring dungeons and looking for treasure". is just you being "clever" again, insinuating that the default assumption of D&D isn't any different than your plotting.

I think you may being uncharitable here. It was an example of a potential play style for D and D, one I've seen quite a bit over the years. He didn't say it was the default or only one anymore then the others were the default or only way to play a WW2 historic campaign or the others the only way to run a sci-fi setting.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941890A shitty sandbox.

Oh, when you put it like that...

Quote from: rgrove0172;941756Ive been fortunate never to have experienced the "one up each other" dynamic. My players have always been pretty amicable where the story is concerned. If they pulled something like the mansion burning, it was an honest attempt at what they saw as a solution rather than some veiled jerk around. Im grateful.

For the sake of clarity, was the Haunted Mansion Mystery a one shot session or part of a larger game with a more mission oriented play style?

The problem with many of the examples used in discussions like this is they're so situational. What's a clever move in situation can be a dick move in another, regardless of what side of the screen it comes from. In a way examples and "what ifs" are more of a Rorschach test. What details the reader fills can be more telling than their overall answer.

Quote from: rgrove0172;941554One example was a lengthy and detailed haunted mansion mystery I planned wherein one player immediately suggested burning the place down when they first laid eyes on it. The others were quickly on board and didn't care a shits if the owners complained, authorities responded etc. They were gonna fight Evil by God! I would have let them if they had insisted but thankfully they backed off when I explained it was the investigation of the house that we had gotten together to play, not a 5 minute arson adventure.

The PCs had no reason to want to investigate the mansion such that burning it down had no players dissenting?

If the PCs do not have sufficient reason to want to investigate the mansion, I am failing to understand what the problem is when they decide against investigating the mansion.

Even bog standard D&D dungeon crawling comes with the built in motivation of the dungeon being where the treasure is at.

Quote from: Nexus;941772Well no you didn't. I thin I missed your point?

Actually, you helped me make my point:D!

Hint: you just said that when you signed to play space opera nobles, playing a campiagn that works like Dune wouldn't be what you signed up for...

Quote from: Black Vulmea;941784I went there to play a space opera game with my friends - since when did crashlanding on a hostile world qualify as not-space opera?

Beats me, too. I'm pretty sure I can think of examples, actually:p.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941853* stations archers to cover the exits *
* sets thread on fire *

Wish you could, don't you, Glorious General:)?

Quote from: CRKrueger;941911Some of those could be campaign play, others seem like just storylines.
"Your soldiers in WWII in France looking for a shipment of Nazi stolen gold" - Yay, we found it, now what?  Do we have the option of stealing it and going AWOL, or if we planned on not turning it in should we not have shown up to play?

Instead of..."You're investigators in New York in the 1930s trying to find a serial killer"
Why not..."You're PI's in New York in the 1930s."  The fact that there's a serial killer is Setting Detail.  Contacts and other investigations might lead the characters to cross paths with the Serial Killer, or the characters may find their own goals and decide to pursue the Serial Killer because then they'll be the most famous PIs in New York, or at least among those in the know, which might put them on the radar of the Rich and Powerful.

Instead of..."You're the crew of an asteroid mining ship caught up in political intrigue during an uprising on Mars."
Why not..."You're the crew of an asteroid mining ship."  Setting detail will establish that times are tough and uncertain due to a current uprising on Mars.

Of course "You're a group of medieval era fantasy adventurers exploring dungeons and looking for treasure". is just you being "clever" again, insinuating that the default assumption of D&D isn't any different than your plotting.  
The way some people play D&D, You're Right.  Genre Play is Genre Play, period and D&D's "We're all dungeoncrawlers" at this point is a gaming genre.  

However, even in the very first Ur-campaigns of D&D, play expanded beyond the dungeon paradigm very quickly, so claiming that is the default plot assumption is simply incorrect.

All you really need is
1. Prepped Situations that the players could get involved with.  Really no different than "What plotline do you guys want to play" except it's the characters choosing organically by roleplaying their character's goals.
2. Contacts.  Make sure through Chargen that players know people.  Real setting people, not the "I know a guy" Edge, a Contacts Feat or other abstract OOC shenanigans, but god-honest sentient beings they know.
3. Rumor Tables.
4. Roleplaying.  They roleplay their characters doing their thing.  You roleplay the NPCs doing their thing.

Put it all together and your campaign ends up looking like a web.  There's lot of potential enemies and allies moving around doing their things, the PCs are moving around doing their things, and threads between the two will bring them to each other's notice.  Not a single Plot prepped, years of adventure.

Kudos for the explanation, Green One;)!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941853* stations archers to cover the exits *
* sets thread on fire *

It's all right, man. We know it gets harder to focus when you get older.:-)

I'm of two minds about who's responsible for PC investment. On the one hand, the GM can make sure there's hooks there, based on what he knows of the characters. On the other, I would think any decent player can come up with a reason their character would take on the presented scenario. I'd rather have the players do that, and, so far, I've been lucky enough to play with people who do, by and large.

Quote from: AsenRG;941931Actually, you helped me make my point:D!

Hint: you just said that when you signed to play space opera nobles, playing a campiagn that works like Dune wouldn't be what you signed up for...

Well, I don't think that describing a campaign where the character will be stripped of most of the abilities of being a noble right off is a "campaign about playing Space Nobles" its a campaign about playing "Former Space Nobles in exile/on the run". That's why I think open and clear communication is important when starting up a game/campaign especially if the game system required investment of character generation resources to being a "noble". Which is how the games I play most often function its not doubt shaped my opinion.

QuoteBeats me, too. I'm pretty sure I can think of examples, actually:p.

I think the implication was the crash landing sets the gamne on the Bronze Age world for the life of the game or at least very long term and isn't just an "adventure". So your character's high tech skills, equipment, off world  contact, etc are now mostly useless. Being refugees on a primitive world could be a great campaign but with the blanket description "Space Opera" I don't think its what most folks would think of. Its kind of a GM switcheroo which is another kind of either misunderstanding or dickery depending on the situation.

It also illustrates the problem of just using genre as the sole description for a game; genres often have various definitions and interpretations. For instance, some people consider "Space Opera" to be big flashy space battles, high end politics and exotic extraterrestrial locales with big while others consider any "soft"  or pulp sci-fi involving space travel in some form "Space Opera".

Quote from: cranebump;941932It's all right, man. We know it gets harder to focus when you get older.:-)

I'm of two minds about who's responsible for PC investment. On the one hand, the GM can make sure there's hooks there, based on what he knows of the characters. On the other, I would think any decent player can come up with a reason their character would take on the presented scenario. I'd rather have the players do that, and, so far, I've been lucky enough to play with people who do, by and large.

I think this matter is always a taffy-pull. At some point everyone has to invest enough in the fictional premise that kicks things off that things get a chance to get going.

I, too, have been lucky enough to have mostly players who can find a reason to dig into any situation. (And I am that kind of player as well.)

That said, my experience is that the more the Players are invested in what is happening (not the PCs with their fictional motivations, but the Players) the better things will be. For this reason I'm always listening for their interests at the table and feeding that as best I can. If it turns out they want to rescue their friends who got sucked into Null Space in a trap in a dungeon, then by god, I'll be opening up channels for them to figure out how to do that and offering obstacles to that path to make the journey worth something. This way I know that no matter what I prep the Players will be pushing into it because they wanted to do this thing.

Again, it's a give and take I think.

As for rgrove's almost failed haunted house, all the was needed (I think; context is still slight) is for each PC to have some emotionally staked reason to go into the house and find/discover/recover proof of something. That is, destroying the house would not at all help them, since they could only get what they really wanted by entering the house and dealing with the contents.

As I said upthread, this could be dealt with by front loading these matters in an open discussion at the top of the session.

Quote from: cranebump;941932It's all right, man. We know it gets harder to focus when you get older.:-)

I'm of two minds about who's responsible for PC investment. On the one hand, the GM can make sure there's hooks there, based on what he knows of the characters. On the other, I would think any decent player can come up with a reason their character would take on the presented scenario. I'd rather have the players do that, and, so far, I've been lucky enough to play with people who do, by and large.

Yeah, if you're running an occult investigation game I think its reasonable to expect characters that want to investigate the supernatural or adventurers that want, at least some degree, treasure and glory in a Dungeoneering driven D and D game. If the game's premise is more open ended the GM might have to construct things so there's more reason for the PCs to be interested. But even then some buy in is required or at least resisting the urge to "genre savvy" your way into a board game night.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;941945As for rgrove's almost failed haunted house, all the was needed (I think; context is still slight) is for each PC to have some emotionally staked reason to go into the house and find/discover/recover proof of something. That is, destroying the house would not at all help them, since they could only get what they really wanted by entering the house and dealing with the contents.

As I said upthread, this could be dealt with by front loading these matters in an open discussion at the top of the session.

Very wise advice.  Assuming the haunted house exploration is a one-shot, there are not even any campaign continuity issues to care about.  Spend 5-10 minutes at the start of the session asking each player why their PC is motivated to explore the mansion.  Works 95% of the time to kick off any campaign/one-shot.

Quote from: Nexus;941942Well, I don't think that describing a campaign where the character will be stripped of most of the abilities of being a noble right off is a "campaign about playing Space Nobles" its a campaign about playing "Former Space Nobles in exile/on the run".

No, Dune is still a campaign about space nobles. It's just a campaign where the PCs suffered setbacks, the GM worsened their situation, and then they recruited the locals to get a shot at revenge.
But they were very much a noble's heir and a noble's mistress/space Shaolin nun.

QuoteThat's why I think open and clear communication is important when starting up a game/campaign especially if the game system required investment of character generation resources to being a "noble". Which is how the games I play most often function its not doubt shaped my opinion.

And even their experience with governing and tactics helped them, as noted in the books. So said resources weren't misspent.

QuoteI think the implication was the crash landing sets the gamne on the Bronze Age world for the life of the game or at least very long term and isn't just an "adventure".

Actually, as written in post 46, you're on the Bronze Age world "for the night", presumably the game night. What a long and tedious digression:D!

QuoteSo your character's high tech skills, equipment, off world  contact, etc are now mostly useless.

Are you kidding me?
My knowledge of advanced (for their time) medical procedures, wound dressing (First Aid), anatomy, the strategy of Roman commanders, chemistry and physics are useless? Those are things you learn in 4th grade in our schools.
My ability to shoot lightning from my hands (blaster) and to heal heavy wounds (Space Opera medicine kits) is useless? I'm not even talking Dune-like personal shields or reflex boosting equipment...

Seriously, dude, WTF?

QuoteBeing refugees on a primitive world could be a great campaign but with the blanket description "Space Opera" I don't think its what most folks would think of.

We're talking about a session. Are you seriously telling me there were no episodes of Star Trek or whatever when characters were stranded on a primitive world? You can't think of a similar situation in other space opera classics?

QuoteIts kind of a GM switcheroo which is another kind of either misunderstanding or dickery depending on the situation.

Switching...to a different part of the same genre.
Yeah, right.

QuoteIt also illustrates the problem of just using genre as the sole description for a game; genres often have various definitions and interpretations. For instance, some people consider "Space Opera" to be big flashy space battles, high end politics and exotic extraterrestrial locales with big while others consider any "soft"  or pulp sci-fi involving space travel in some form "Space Opera".

Well, since most episodes of Lexx and Firefly would fail at least one (and often more) of the three criteria in "big flashy space battles, high end politics and exotic extraterrestrial locales with big (something)" , I can only conclude that it's an overly narrow definition of the genre. Thus, I side firmly with the proponents of "pulp SF involving space travel"!