Quote from: Black Vulmea;941561Sounds like the players should've burned the referee's notes then played Risk.

Oh for Christ's sake Black, give it a break. If you show up at a friend's house to play what was described as a space-opera adventure and discover 5 minutes in that your ship crashes and you will spend the whole night surviving on a pre-bronze age world with no advance tech you have a right to take a morale check. It might be fun, might be fair, but it aint what you went there for!

I said I would have let them burn the damned place but Im not going to wing an entire different adventure on the cuff when I had 4 hours of detailed mansion investigation planned. I doubt many GMs would, unless they don't plan anything to begin with. Yep, I know those guys are out there, I aint one.

Quote from: AsenRG;941600That's the players being dicks, but it's not the only way to think laterally:).

"I think the murder has been executed by a vengeful ghost, we know such things exist, but are usually shackled to a location, so let's burn the mansion down and see if we destroy its anchor to the world". That's the players being logical about it;).

And I wont and didn't disagree. The only issue was the expectation that I would suddenly just skip past the entire session I had planned and move on to some random adventure seed pulled from my backside. They could have burned it, we would have played some boardgame and resumed the RPG the next session after I had a chance to prepare.

Quote from: Omega;941616no. Thats the players still being dicks and the PCs being arsonists. (Unless its ok to torch the place. In which case it may really be a viable solution.)

Though way back had some players do something similar and I allowed it. Then told them the session was over and Im off to do other things. Sorry no EXP or even treasure as they didnt face any challenge at all and crushed any treasure under tons of rock. This after I asked them if they were sure AND pointed that they were going to lose the treasure. Ok? Ok...

Then I warned them not to waste my time asking me to prep an adventure in a mine for them and then not actually go on the adventure they asked for.

THIS

To me its the old "Lord of the Rings and the Eagles" thing again.

Sure, the fellowship could have ridden the Eagles and dropped Sauron's bauble down Mt. Doom's throat but what fun would that have been? The point of getting together to play the adventure is to, well PLAY THE ADVENTURE, not win in the fastest and easiest way possible. Sure, a good GM shouldn't allow for such a short cut in his planning but I completely agree with him coming up with a reason to disallow such a suggestion should it come up when its going to ruin the whole game. Such things should be understood by the players and shame on them if they try and short circuit the game. I know if a few games Ive played in we have stumbled upon a plot wrecking element here and there, something the GM obviously didn't consider that would prove seriously destructive to game. We chose to ignore it, we were there to play and have fun afterall, not outsmart the guy.

Quote from: rgrove0172;941648To me its the old "Lord of the Rings and the Eagles" thing again.

Sure, the fellowship could have ridden the Eagles and dropped Sauron's bauble down Mt. Doom's throat.

GOD DAMN IT NO THEY COULD NOT HAVE!!! FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCKITTY FUCK WITH FUCK SAUCE ON FUCK!

It is made ABUNDANTLY clear by MULTIPLE characters MULTIPLE times that i) the Great Powers of Middle Earth can sense each other, and ii) the Eagles are one of the Great Powers.

Crom fuck Set up the ass, is peoples' reading comprehension THAT FUCKING BAD?

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;941634What's the difference? A lot of the time people are describing a sandbox, they're describing a mission hub area instead.

Ah, the old "I will redefine words until I win" gambit.

I have a new game for you, from White Wolf:  MY PEE HOLE -- THE TONGUING.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941650GOD DAMN IT NO THEY COULD NOT HAVE!!! FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCKITTY FUCK WITH FUCK SAUCE ON FUCK!

It is made ABUNDANTLY clear by MULTIPLE characters MULTIPLE times that i) the Great Powers of Middle Earth can sense each other, and ii) the Eagles are one of the Great Powers.

Crom fuck Set up the ass, is peoples' reading comprehension THAT FUCKING BAD?

Man, look at JRRT, cock-blocking the party like a true railroader.:-) (c'mon now, doesn't that just SOUND like something a railroad GM would pull right out his ass? "Um, no, that won't work, because, um...they can SENSE each other....yeah....).

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;941634The problem is sandboxing itself requires the GTA reactivity -- you attack random people, the guards/police/whatever attack the shit out of you until you die.

You keep talking about sandboxing and I still have no idea what you mean by sandboxing.

"Sandboxing" is attacking random people?

And what is "GTA reactivity"?

I have a suspicion, just so you know, that what you think of and define as sandbox play runs counter to how everyone else here thinks of and defines sandbox play. Conversation might be difficult because of that.

I'd love to hear how you actually set up games however.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;941655You keep talking about sandboxing and I still have no idea what you mean by sandboxing.

"Sandboxing" is attacking random people?

And what is "GTA reactivity"?

I have a suspicion, just so you know, that what you think of and define as sandbox play runs counter to how everyone else here thinks of and defines sandbox play. Conversation might be difficult because of that.

I'd love to hear how you actually set up games however.

He has no idea of what he means by sandbox either.

This is an old, annoying, and pointless gambit that's been played out countless times here and elsewhere; there is a small but noisy contingent of douchenozzles who have somehow decided that "sandbox" means "no planning of anything," and no matter what anybody says they will not budge from this, and frankly, even trying to discuss anything with them is a waste of time.

The answer that 95% of the world gives them is "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Quote from: cranebump;941654Man, look at JRRT, cock-blocking the party like a true railroader.:-) (c'mon now, doesn't that just SOUND like something a railroad GM would pull right out his ass? "Um, no, that won't work, because, um...they can SENSE each other....yeah....).

Like it or not, it IS in the fucking text.  Which is my point.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941657Like it or not, it IS in the fucking text.  Which is my point.

How about you step away from your self-serve glory-hole and take a joke?

P.S. I AGREE with you on what a sandbox is.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941650GOD DAMN IT NO THEY COULD NOT HAVE!!! FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCKITTY FUCK WITH FUCK SAUCE ON FUCK!

It is made ABUNDANTLY clear by MULTIPLE characters MULTIPLE times that i) the Great Powers of Middle Earth can sense each other, and ii) the Eagles are one of the Great Powers.

Crom fuck Set up the ass, is peoples' reading comprehension THAT FUCKING BAD?

Doesn't matter if its valid or not, the example was used to demonstrate the point that sometimes a quick solution to a problem is counter productive in a game.

Quote from: rgrove0172;941663Doesn't matter if its valid or not, the example was used to demonstrate the point that sometimes a quick solution to a problem is counter productive in a game.

Its more a problem of gaming the system vs quick solution. Sometimes the quick solution really is the solution. But sometimes its just the players acting on meta knowledge and/or being dicks. In which case ta-ta. Theres the door. Get lost. And sometimes the supposed quick solution is the worst solution. "Bobs infected with the space plague. We can either work on a cure or toss him in the incinerator. Fuck it. Who wants to work. Sorry Bob."

Or my older example someone else provided of the player whos Paladin PC killed an NPC dock hand just to fuck with the DM and then copped an attitude when the DM reminded him that this is world in motion and here comes the constables to arrest the Paladin and the other PCs who laughed at it. Not so funny now is it?

And so on ad nausium.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;941561Sounds like the players should've burned the referee's notes then played Risk.

:D:D. I would have bet good money that you would respond to what rgrove said, the way you did. Fuck!
 Thanks for the laugh man. I needed that one! I haven't had a good belly laugh like that for a long time. Oh shit!!! It brought fucking tears to my eyes. :D:D

Shemek

Quote from: Omega;941590Not really. There are times when the players arent role playing. They are genre-savvying the system. "Hey guys! I think we are in a murder mystery! Lets just start torturing the NPCs till they confess."

But then go to Plan B, or Plan C, or Plan whatever. Do you not have contingencies based upon what the PC's might do? To go back to rgrove's example, they burn the house down. Ok, well let's see if any of the encounters I had in the house get out alive. They do, then great. Meanwhile, let's roll for random encounters and see if the flames attract anyone or anything. I have some core player's who can be really crazy if they put their minds to it, and back in the day some of the best times we had was when we were trying to get one up on each other. I had to plan at least three steps in advance or they would run rough shod and "fuck everything up." This doesn't mean that I was all "railroady", far from it. I just liked to be prepared, and have the meta campaign advance regardless of whether or not the players were actively involved in the main story arc, or were off on another one. I have continued the practice over the years. As I tell my players: "Do what ever you want, but there are ramifications, both good and bad."

Shemek