So, on the advice of a lot of people, several of them here at this board, I finally broke down and got Patrcik Wetmore's post-apocalyptic science-fantasy super-gonzo dungeoncrawl, Anomalous Subsurface Environment.
I love it (hell, I think it's damn near impossible not to, for anyone who's into gonzo D&D) but it is a tad more gonzo than I've expected. Since my players are AD&D 2e-head who see Larry Elmore as the ultimate D&D artist, I was expecting to introduce the SF elements in a manner a bit more gradual than ASE's electric-light-lit, robot-patrolled city-state of Denethix, or ASE itself in which a hologram greets adventurers in the very best corporate jargon.
At the same time, holy fucking shit, I love ASE as written. I'm just not sure how my players will react to the upfront SF "weirdness" of the setting. I've considered toning it down but I'm afraid I might be throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Who's got any experience, good or bad, introducing gonzo SF weirdness in D&D to players unfamiliar with this style? Any bad reactions, or am I just overthinking shit again?
Quote from: The Butcher;633532How gonzo is too gonzo?
I don't understand the question.
Is there such a thing as too gonzo?
Quote from: The Butcher;633532. . . [A]m I just overthinking shit again?
Probably.
I think you are overthinking it. Just approach the idea of a campaign like this with your players. Start throwing references like robots and mutants made of eyeballs and trashcans that speak in the D&D game you want to run, and just look for their reactions. If they look at you like "fuck yeah that sounds totally stupid,... and awesome!" you'll know you're in for a good game.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;633533I don't understand the question.
Is there such a thing as too gonzo?
Gnomish amazons, riding kangaroos, throwing hand grenades at the shoggoths.
Quote from: P&P;633540throwing hand grenades at the shoggoths.
If you can ram Cthulhu with a steamship you should be able to make a shoggoth dance.
Sigh. I suppose this day had to come. What exactly does gonzo mean in the context of RPGs to you people, as far as I'm aware it was coined by Hunter S Thompson to reflect his personalised spin on news reporting as opposed to being impartial and dispassionate.
I have very pedestrian tastes when it comes to D&D.
So "Gonzo" is more often than not something that will unsell me on a product.
Give me Elves, Orcs, castles, scary forests, haunted moors, mad kings, etc...
Quote from: P&P;633540Gnomish amazons, riding kangaroos, throwing hand grenades at the shoggoths.
I call that 'random encounter number 3.'
I think there can be too much gonzo, it depends on the setting and what you're going for. For example, Heavy Metal as a D&D adventure would be pretty gonzo, but at the same time, it's not slapstick gonzo.
There's weird crazy shit that can come with SF running amok in fantasy, but that doesn't mean we're all rolling our eyes at the 4th wall puns, and laughing at a wild mix of Star Wars and Star Trek cliches delivered with a Monty Python accent.
Quote from: The Traveller;633543Sigh. I suppose this day had to come. What exactly does gonzo mean in the context of RPGs to you people, as far as I'm aware it was coined by Hunter S Thompson to reflect his personalised spin on news reporting as opposed to being impartial and dispassionate.
To me Gonzo implies a concerted effort to subvert or discard cliche and archetype.
Aliens and spaceship, clowns, etc... are not native to fantasyland so a gonzo game will include them.
Fantasyland hobbits are fat gardeners so a gonzo game will make them nomadic barbarians.
Fantasyland has always made an effort to be internally consistent so a gonzo game will deliberately include inconsistencies.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;633533Is there such a thing as too gonzo?
I think so. Every aspect of world (adventure) design has a point of diminishing returns. This is evidently subjective, but there is a point where the vivid contrasts and strange juxtapositions lose their imaginative power, becoming rote and tiresome, or just ineffective because you no longer have a reference point among so many 'gonzo' and 'weird' things.
To give an example, in our Wilderlands campaign, the characters came upon the tower of Sulzannarg, an evil, high-level magic-user. They looked down on the marsh-covered plains, and the 300' tall metal spire rising from its centre. It was a total 'wow' moment for the
players even in the absence of much context or explanation, because it was so strange and unusual. They gave the tower a respectful berth as went on their way.
I don't think the same encounter would have worked if similar megastructures were featured every game session. On the other hand, most of us play fantastic RPGs to experience larger-than-life events. So there are three levels of gonzo: not enough, just right, and too much.
Quote from: P&P;633540Gnomish amazons, riding kangaroos, throwing hand grenades at the shoggoths.
Hang on... Two out of those three are from Call of Cthulhu, not D&D!
Quote from: Piestrio;633545I have very pedestrian tastes when it comes to D&D.
So "Gonzo" is more often than not something that will unsell me on a product.
Give me Elves, Orcs, castles, scary forests, haunted moors, mad kings, etc...
I'm kinda the same way.
Gonzo for me is good.
Silly for me is bad.
There is a line between the too where awesome gonzo becomes dumb/silly. Its hard to define where that line sits until I see a game or work that goes across the line.
Example: Gamma World (4E) Gonzo and Good. Reclamation RPG steps over into silly with werewolves and vampire "classes." While Armageddon which has supernaturals does not.
One or two gonzo encounters in a medium dungeon is plenty. Enough to remember them, not enough to make them boring or expected.
Remember, D&D is incredibly gonzo right out of the box - we're all just used to it. You've got pun monsters like sea lions, you've got man-eating furniture, you've got half-owl half-bears, you've got giant flying eyeballs with smaller eyeballs that shoot deathrays, you've got robot lobsters that you can drive around. This is the default D&D universe. It's completely ridiculous.
Anyhow, how I started my home ASE campaign was just in the ridiculously normal boring village of Chelmsfordshire, with standard equipment lists. I didn't bother informing anybody of any of the background or gonzo elements, because who wants to hear a giant info dump anyways? My players found out everything as they experienced it. There was a certain amount of surprise when they first visited Denethix, and a bunch of effete young nobles drove by in a convertible to the Inn of Alabaster Surprise.
[edit - apologies for repeating myself, I see I made pretty much the same post in that "fallacy that modules suck" thread]
Just like in the chronicles of Corum, in the plane dominated by Xiombarg, eventually chaos unchecked exhausts itself into a desert of endless, shifting banality.
Context is God, disobey that and eventually you have pseudo-post-modern gibberish. Yes Virginia, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. That and people hate a bait and switch, so be extra careful mid-campaign.
Gonzo has its place in gaming.
Of course, if you think it is too gonzo, then you obviously haven't been drinking enough. :D
"We will close the drapes tonight. A thing like that could send a drug person careening around the room like a ping-pong ball. Hallucinations are bad enough. But after a while you learn to cope with things like seeing your dead grandmother crawling up your leg with a knife in her teeth. Most acid fanciers can handle this sort of thing.
"But nobody can handle that other trip- the possibility that any freak with $1.98 can walk into the Circus-Circus and suddenly appear in the sky over downtown Las Vegas twelve times the size of God, howling anything that comes into his head. No, this is not a good town for psychedelic drugs. Reality itself is too twisted."
Not to dodge the question, but it depends on what you mean by "gonzo".
I'm a huge fan of Torg, which many people (to my surprise) describe as gonzo.
Yet rocket-ships and rayguns in fantasy turn me off, unless the entire campaign is defined as such from the beginning. Which Torg is.
Barrier Peaks? Not interested.
Shadowrun? Love it.
It may seem contradictory, but that's just my comfort level.
("Gnomish amazons, riding kangaroos, throwing hand grenades at the shoggoths" sounds pretty awesome, if there's a world where that sort of thing makes sense.)
Quote from: PatW;633632Remember, D&D is incredibly gonzo right out of the box - we're all just used to it. You've got pun monsters like sea lions, you've got man-eating furniture, you've got half-owl half-bears, you've got giant flying eyeballs with smaller eyeballs that shoot deathrays, you've got robot lobsters that you can drive around. This is the default D&D universe. It's completely ridiculous.
Very good point, but note that sea lions are actually from mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea-lion). As are D&D's gas-breathing armoured cow gorgons.
depends on context.
One of my problems with old TSR modules was that there was no internal consistency, if each giant can eat a cow a day and there are 200 giants where are all the cows. Why is there a magic statue that answers riddles ?
So if I wanted something so disconnected I just used the random dungeon generator in the DMG.
If you present yourself as a logical world then I need internal consistency. If you present yourself as a post apocalypic fantasy world where the Old ones have triggered the apocalypse to reclaim earth then gnomes on Kangaroos chucking grenades at shoggoths is practically a trope.
Quote from: CRKrueger;633548For example, Heavy Metal as a D&D adventure would be pretty gonzo, but at the same time, it's not slapstick gonzo.
Funny you mention that, because I've found simply adding more METAL will counter the silly in Gonzo.
Quote from: Silverlion;633602Gonzo for me is good.
Silly for me is bad.
This. And it largely depends on how well you can maintain mood and tone.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;633701Funny you mention that, because I've found simply adding more METAL will counter the silly in Gonzo.
That is a very good way to put it. The more ridiculous it is, the more deadly it has to be - I think the reason gonzo works is that it's a contrast between the unlikeliness of the content versus the serious consequences of the content.
When it doesn't work, I think it's because its out of context (3 years of a high fantasy political intrigue and then suddenly a UFO crashes into the capital and disgorges Elvis), or because the DM doesn't present the subject matter seriously (Tootles the clown ignores your feeble blow and honks his nose at you! Now what do you do?)
For an excellent example of gonzo done right, check out Planet Algol's play reports on http://planetalgol.blogspot.com (http://planetalgol.blogspot.com).
Quote from: PatW;633721. . . (3 years of a high fantasy political intrigue and then suddenly a UFO crashes into the capital and disgorges Elvis) . . .
*
yoink!*
I need at least enough intenernal consistency from a setting that I can suspend disbelief. The game can be as gonzo as it likes as long as it revolves around this core. Most gonzo games don't try for any rationalization, however, they just throw things in independent of each other with no connection nor basis because it's "kewl".
Quote from: TristramEvans;633798I need at least enough intenernal consistency from a setting that I can suspend disbelief. The game can be as gonzo as it likes as long as it revolves around this core.
*DING!* Winnah!
Lots of great insight in this thread, thank you all. Especially Pat, you're the one who got me into this mess with your damn brilliant module. ;)
Also very thankful to those who brought up the "bait-and-switch" thing, I'll try to set expectations accordingly. And Anon makes a meaningful distinction between silly and gonzo by bringing up danger and consequences. I'll try and keep that in mind.
I suppose making them start out in the boondocks, relatively unaware of the big bad world beyond, should do the trick.
On the other hand, I have the damnedest hard time looking at a module and using it as written. I'm in the process of breaking down Ashes of Middenheim and putting it together in a new shape of my own choosing (players' choices help a lot in this actually) and I don't discard doing something like that in the future; especially since ASE has brought my imagination over to a rolling boil with new ideas and ways I could implement and expand upon some of the building blocks Pat's used on his world-building.
I'll also try to go back and read the old Planet Algol and Henchman Abuse entries.
It all depends on the shared willingness to suspend disbelief. Every player is different and every group is different so the GM needs to gauge what is the acceptable level of disbelief and plan accordingly.
When I run "gonzo fantasy", I announce it upfront so players know "I need to increase my suspension of disbelief to enjoy this game...or not play".
Immersion is tough, but if the GM does enough to support the internal consistency of the setting AND the players do their part suspending disbelief, then you can go deep in the gonzo. But both GM and players need to sign on.
Quote from: Spinachcat;633867It all depends on the shared willingness to suspend disbelief. Every player is different and every group is different so the GM needs to gauge what is the acceptable level of disbelief and plan accordingly.
When I run "gonzo fantasy", I announce it upfront so players know "I need to increase my suspension of disbelief to enjoy this game...or not play".
I call that the Bullshit Tax (http://daddywarpig.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/cinematic-indulgences-worldbuilding-weirdness/).
If it ever gets too Gonzo for me, I'll let you know.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;634018I call that the Bullshit Tax (http://daddywarpig.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/cinematic-indulgences-worldbuilding-weirdness/).
Interesting article, but any law is a social contract. We agree to be bound by the law in exchange for the freedom the law provides. In the case of terminating those with outlawed powers, it's being bound by a unfair law in exchange for protecting the rest of humanity. It's the Patriot Act turned up to 11. I haven't read that book in question, but if a human suddenly manifested the ability to nuke cities, city blocks, or even just buildings and was unable to control that, wouldn't NOT killing him be a direct threat to everyone around him? Don't mean to derail the gonzo, but just wondering why an unjust law would be too much bullshit. Isn't unjust law really the majority of human law if you go back to the beginning?
Like the term though. :D
Quote from: CRKrueger;634388In the case of terminating those with outlawed powers, it's being bound by a unfair law in exchange for protecting the rest of humanity.
My main problem with it isn't the morality, it's the lack of worldbuilding. Honestly, I don't think the author even began to think through his social or political changes. It seems like he began with
X-Men 2 (the movie), assumed a "hunted mutant" background for all Probes and Selfers, then tacked on
Dances with Wolves.
It's a mess.
He's former military, and a former contractor (PMC, I think), so those aspects of the book drip with verisimilitude. The rest, not so much.
(For example, at one point he suggests the Geneva Convention now includes the Death Penalty for manifesting prohibited schools. This makes utterly no sense, for so many reasons.)
In any case, the main character's sympathy for a school shooter (http://daddywarpig.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/cinematic-indulgences-sympathy-for-a-klebold/) was a far bigger moral problem for me than the implied police state of the (fictional) America.
Quote from: CRKrueger;634388if a human suddenly manifested the ability to nuke cities, city blocks, or even just buildings and was unable to control that, wouldn't NOT killing him be a direct threat to everyone around him?
In that case, a person becoming a uncontrollable human nuke, simple self defense justifies killing them. No law required.
But the powers Probes manifest are (at most) on the devastating personal scale, not WMD-scale. Grenades, not nukes. And those scales are (as far as I can tell) manifested only by people who have some measure of control.
Bad, but not enough to not only morally justify "manifest and die", much less make it more or less universal across the entire planet. And, if that were the case, the book should have illustrated it and supported it, even if only implicitly.
(Lazy or incomplete worldbuilding irritates me.)
Quote from: CRKrueger;634388Like the term though. :D
Thanks. :)
Huh. Same board that mostly poo-pooed the idea of dwarven wizards, mostly embraces the idea of gonzo adventures. I find that interesting.
Quote from: Mistwell;634604Huh. Same board that mostly poo-pooed the idea of dwarven wizards, mostly embraces the idea of gonzo adventures. I find that interesting.
I support dwarven wizards (especially rune magic) but I think gonzo should be very limited in a campaign.
Quote from: Mistwell;634604Huh. Same board that mostly poo-pooed the idea of dwarven wizards, mostly embraces the idea of gonzo adventures. I find that interesting.
Hobgoblin of small minds and all that. ;)
Quote from: Mistwell;634604Huh. Same board that mostly poo-pooed the idea of dwarven wizards, mostly embraces the idea of gonzo adventures. I find that interesting.
There's gonzo and then there's just
hippy nonsense I tell you!
Quote from: Opaopajr;633648Just like in the chronicles of Corum, in the plane dominated by Xiombarg, eventually chaos unchecked exhausts itself into a desert of endless, shifting banality...
Brilliant reference to make the point!
Quote from: Mistwell;634604Huh. Same board that mostly poo-pooed the idea of dwarven wizards, mostly embraces the idea of gonzo adventures. I find that interesting.
I don't like either.
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060818063319/muppet/images/1/11/Alien_Gonzos.JPG)
Too Many Gonzos!
Quote from: TristramEvans;634705Too Many Gonzos!
There's always room for Gonz-O.
You know another funny thing? Reality itself tends to be more gonzo than people are willing to accept, and more than once I've had to argue a known fact because it wasn't 'realistic'. Realism is not believable enough, and that in itself is pretty gonzo.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;634722You know another funny thing? Reality itself tends to be more gonzo than people are willing to accept, and more than once I've had to argue a known fact because it wasn't 'realistic'. Realism is not believable enough, and that in itself is pretty gonzo.
Absolutely. Remember that in its original meaning, "gonzo" was firmly grounded on the absurdity of reality (albeit slightly exaggerated reality).
RPGPundit
I've thought about this a bit more and I'm coming to the conclusion that I'm okay with gonzo. I think my problem is with arbitrary gonzo.
ASE1 doesn't feel like arbitrary gonzo. As we wander around meeting robots and stuff, there's a sense that it all hangs together----that there's some level on which this IMEC corporation fits into the world and is comprehensible. It's foreshadowed by all the business with the radioactive rock, and then I got to read the futuristic signs and meet the robots and talk to them, and then we meet this crawling heap of junk that wants to kill us and take our limbs. I'm okay with that (and enjoyed it).
If a crawling heap of robotic junk completely unexpectedly tried to kill us and take our limbs without foreshadowing of any kind, then I'd be less cool with that. I expect dungeons to be mostly full of humanoids, undead, and vermin with the occasional elder horror, so I'm okay with rounding a corner and meeting those things. But if I round a dungeon corner and find myself face to face with a 75mm Sturmgeschutz self-propelled gun supported by a bunch of orcs with SS-armbands and panzerfausts, then I had better have had some foreshadowing before it happens and the chance to make sense of it afterwards.
Gonzo but not arbitrary gonzo, see?
Also, no dwarven wizards ever. The word for magic dwarf is gnome.
Quote from: P&P;635236Also, no dwarven wizards ever. The word for magic dwarf is gnome.
You just made me laugh out loud:)
Quote from: P&P;635236But if I round a dungeon corner and find myself face to face with a 75mm Sturmgeschutz self-propelled gun supported by a bunch of orcs with SS-armbands and panzerfausts, then I had better have had some foreshadowing before it happens and the chance to make sense of it afterwards.
Gonzo but not arbitrary gonzo, see?
And what if the Bakshi/Star Trek-esque Nazi Orcs had no foreshadowing, but there was a coherent backstory that the character was unaware of?
Quote from: Planet Algol;635268And what if the Bakshi/Star Trek-esque Nazi Orcs had no foreshadowing, but there was a coherent backstory that the character was unaware of?
Then you, sir, have not properly used your boxed text monologues this evening.
Bah, I prefer my rotoscoped Orc SS unleashed on the party sans any forewarning.
It worked.perfectly well in Baksi's LOTR.
Quote from: RPGPundit;635220Absolutely. Remember that in its original meaning, "gonzo" was firmly grounded on the absurdity of reality (albeit slightly exaggerated reality).
RPGPundit
In other words,
Bobobo-Bo Bobobo-bo would not qualify.
JG
Quote from: Hulks and HorrorsInstant Gumbo Cooker: Xenoarchaeologists have discovered that this classic Cajun dish
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Weight: 5lbs.
Nope. Still not enough.
Quote from: J Arcane;635354Nope. Still not enough.
Swedish Meatballs,
Babylon 5.
Quote from: J Arcane;635354Nope. Still not enough.
Yeah, but is it File Gumbo?
Quote from: CRKrueger;635393Yeah, but is it File Gumbo?
There's another kind?
What is too gonzo?
Is Thundarr the Barbarian too gonzo? Is the DC or Marvel superhero universe too gonzo?
There is a big difference between Gonzo and stupid. Its funny how many people don't seem to get that.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jeff37923;635563What is too gonzo?
Is Thundarr the Barbarian too gonzo? Is the DC or Marvel superhero universe too gonzo?
Bringing up Marvel/DC is interesting.
Because in Supers games, IMO, there is (or has to be) a tacit agreement to "not think about it too much" or else the universe starts to break down.
How much of a factor is "don't think about it" is Gonzo games in other genres?
Quote from: Piestrio;635664Bringing up Marvel/DC is interesting.
Because in Supers games, IMO, there is (or has to be) a tacit agreement to "not think about it too much" or else the universe starts to break down.
How much of a factor is "don't think about it" is Gonzo games in other genres?
On the contrary, many superhero stories obsesses over rationalizing itself. Just have a look at the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, one of the most entertaining theorywank epics of the century, or check out any recent superhero film where they bend over backwards trying to present a pseudo-scientific rationalization to the audience, when "bitten by a radioactive spider, got spider powers" is more than enough for myself. Ang Lee's Hulk film was literally crippled by this tendency.
Superhero worlds operate under different laws, but there are still laws there. Superman can fly, but it doesn't mean gravity doesn't work. Sure, there are supers books that are Gonzo, but thats mainly because superhero isn't actually a genre, is a character archetype. A broad one at that. Superheroes are a spice added to other genres, like "swashbuckler", "rogue" or "wizard".
Quote from: RPGPundit;635654There is a big difference between Gonzo and stupid. Its funny how many people don't seem to get that.
RPGPundit
Or maybe the distinction is in the eye of the beholder.
Quote from: TristramEvans;635675On the contrary, many superhero stories obsesses over rationalizing itself. Just have a look at the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, one of the most entertaining theorywank epics of the century, or check out any recent superhero film where they bend over backwards trying to present a pseudo-scientific rationalization to the audience, when "bitten by a radioactive spider, got spider powers" is more than enough for myself. Ang Lee's Hulk film was literally crippled by this tendency.
Superhero worlds operate under different laws, but there are still laws there. Superman can fly, but it doesn't mean gravity doesn't work. Sure, there are supers books that are Gonzo, but thats mainly because superhero isn't actually a genre, is a character archetype. A broad one at that. Superheroes are a spice added to other genres, like "swashbuckler", "rogue" or "wizard".
For example this SMBC cartoon (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2305) is one possible outcome of "thinking about it too much" :D
Quote from: J Arcane;635677Or maybe the distinction is in the eye of the beholder.
Synnibar. Awesome to some, stupid to others.
My upper gonzo limit would be Gamma World the 1992 edition. Sentient plants, rabbits that could turn metal into rubber and humanoid dogs that like to eat hands.
Quote from: J Arcane;635677Or maybe the distinction is in the eye of the beholder.
No, something that is stupid masquerading as Gonzo is a case of mislabeling. Neither slapstick nor goofball surrealism are actually "gonzo".
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;636016No, something that is stupid masquerading as Gonzo is a case of mislabeling. Neither slapstick nor goofball surrealism are actually "gonzo".
RPGPundit
Is
Samurai Jack too gonzo?
Quote from: jeff37923;636022Is Samurai Jack too gonzo?
Again, nothing really gonzo is "too gonzo". I like Samurai Jack and I think its a good level of gonzo; of course it also has some goofy jokes in there for the kids.
RPGPundit
I've never seen Gonzo as 'zany', personally, or any of the predictable 'weirdness' that people tend to attach to it. I look at it as more of a creeping disconcerting effect, almost a moribund horror. When the preconceptions of daily life slip away to reveal something more terrible and completely unpredictable underneath.
Quote from: Géza Echs;636493I've never seen Gonzo as 'zany', personally, or any of the predictable 'weirdness' that people tend to attach to it. I look at it as more of a creeping disconcerting effect, almost a moribund horror. When the preconceptions of daily life slip away to reveal something more terrible and completely unpredictable underneath.
I respectfully disagree. I don't see how a science fantasy setting — like
Gamma World, for example — is notably dark or terrible.
Talking, walking plants with psionic powers (riding Gnomish amazons) is pretty much the definition of gonzo, and doesn't twig my "existential horror" meter.
YMMV, obviously.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;636517I respectfully disagree. I don't see how a science fantasy setting — like Gamma World, for example — is notably dark or terrible.
I can't comment on that, since I barely remember
Gamma World. :)
QuoteTalking, walking plants with psionic powers (riding Gnomish amazons) is pretty much the definition of gonzo, and doesn't twig my "existential horror" meter.
YMMV, obviously.
Well, I see where you're coming from. I just tend to cling closer to Thompson's sense of gonzo, akin to RPGPundit's "absurdity of reality" comment upthread. Gonzo elements, I think, should reflect that absurdity, and thus be both terrible and occasionally funny at the same time. As I said, I think too many people mistake that sense of "I have to laugh or I'll crack" that's part of gonzo (as I think of it) for zaniness. And that's not something I care for all that much.
Still, I think I could enjoy a gonzo game as people have discussed here - so long as it isn't a "wacky shit for wacky shit's sake" sort of game. I'd prefer a
bit more consistency than that (which is what's so frightening about some of Thompson's writing; the world he depicts is both absurd and perfectly consistent in the quality of its absurdity).
Edit: Forgive me if I'm rambling a bit here and not making a whole lot of sense. It's early, hot, and I'm tired. :)
Gamma World can be dark and terrifying, or comical.
It's about presentation.
As for Samarai Jack, I can fondly recall two episodes that were brilliant.
One had a plot revolving around Jack's sandal strap being broken, and he was trying to get new sandals because it was difficult to fight without good shoes.
The other had a plot involving a norse warrior that had become an immortal being so strong he could not die in battle to reach Valhalla. He hoped Jack would be able to slay him in battle.
These two episodes were excellent.
Quote from: Bill;636645It's about presentation.
As for Samarai Jack, I can fondly recall two episodes that were brilliant.
One had a plot revolving around Jack's sandal strap being broken, and he was trying to get new sandals because it was difficult to fight without good shoes.
The other had a plot involving a norse warrior that had become an immortal being so strong he could not die in battle to reach Valhalla. He hoped Jack would be able to slay him in battle.
These two episodes were excellent.
I've got all four seasons of
Samurai Jack on DVD and there are some great ones in there and you are right, it is all about presentation.
I'd say that for gonzo to work right consistantly, it has to have an ebb and a flow to it. For the baseline, the characters in it must act and react like the setting is real to them, although the situations should vary from the depths of grimdark to the heights of silliness within the setting because you cannot have a steady diet of absurdity without it becomming tedious.
Samurai Jack is a good example of Doing It Right in my book.
To get to true "gonzo" you need to go through the RPG Forbidden Zone first.
The "keeping it real" game.
Genesis is not allowed! Is planet forbidden!
Seriously, I've seen way to many glib out of the box games where they don't even bother to "get it". Think about it. I think the best example is COC where you read a Lovecraft story and the game seems incongruous, etc. In regards to D&D specifically its a feeling that people play too modern-like and not the wargame-type of historical reenactment first over "fantasy whatever in all rulings and all aspects". If you fail this, like when D&D tried to homogenize to regain the dress of the IP at the middle of the 80's then you've already "went Gonzo". Its not some kind of "gonzo drag" but its definitely gonzo especially to those who want to adhere to finding the roots of where the S&S fantasy came from.
The minimalist campaign is the worst form of gonzo. Its where the DM is so afraid because of lack of historical chops that they disallow everything. Its gonzo in that it almost becomes the scene from the YELLOW SUBMARINE where the big vacuum sucks up the sea.
Quote from: Géza Echs;636493I've never seen Gonzo as 'zany', personally, or any of the predictable 'weirdness' that people tend to attach to it. I look at it as more of a creeping disconcerting effect, almost a moribund horror. When the preconceptions of daily life slip away to reveal something more terrible and completely unpredictable underneath.
So you mean "fear and loathing"?
Quote from: RPGPundit;636954So you mean "fear and loathing"?
"We can't stop here! This is bat country!"
Quote from: Géza Echs;636643I just tend to cling closer to Thompson's sense of gonzo [...] Still, I think I could enjoy a gonzo game as people have discussed here
I think we're on the same page — we both acknowledge that, for most people, "gonzo" means "bat-men flying giant mutant pelicans in an attack formation".
(I just know there's an RPG setting where that's possible. Outside of a dream sequence, I mean.)
Quote from: Géza Echs;636643so long as it isn't a "wacky shit for wacky shit's sake" sort of game. I'd prefer a bit more consistency than that
We're on the same page here, as well. "Gonzo" worldbuilding relies heavily on the Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool): if it's awesome, it's in. (See China Miéville's
Perdido Street Station universe.)
My worldbuilding tends towards the deeply internally consistent. I'm just not a gonzo worldbuilder. (Which is why my "gonzo" love is
Torg.)
Neither approach is intrinsically better, and I could very much enjoy playing in a batshit-insane universe, it's just not something I could write.
Quote from: RPGPundit;636954So you mean "fear and loathing"?
Precisely, yes.
I think there is room for somewhat gonzo elements even in a very serious campign setting. If the flying monkey tranported goblin commandos have a well explined origion, and are handled logically, it can work.
There is a fine line between 'same old' and 'non-gonzo'
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;637095I think we're on the same page — we both acknowledge that, for most people, "gonzo" means "bat-men flying giant mutant pelicans in an attack formation".
Yeah. Admittedly I'd enjoy the Hell out of a game including stuff like that, though I'd have to grit my teeth a bit when the GM says it's "gonzo". Just my preconceptions getting in the way, though, is all.
Quote(I just know there's an RPG setting where that's possible. Outside of a dream sequence, I mean.)
Hmm.
Dreampark, maybe? Or... Crap. What's the name of that older game set in a
Callahan's-style outer space bar?
QuoteWe're on the same page here, as well. "Gonzo" worldbuilding relies heavily on the Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool): if it's awesome, it's in. (See China Miéville's Perdido Street Station universe.)
My worldbuilding tends towards the deeply internally consistent. I'm just not a gonzo worldbuilder. (Which is why my "gonzo" love is Torg.)
I never played
TORG, but I've never heard a bad thing about it! Used to sell like hotcakes when I worked at a LGS.
QuoteNeither approach is intrinsically better, and I could very much enjoy playing in a batshit-insane universe, it's just not something I could write.
I think it would be neat to write a batshit-insane universe that's still internally consistent - like that Joe R. Lansdale short story where a passing comet changes local physics on Earth overnight. But it'd be tough to do well. Keeping the basic axioms in mind when creating the fun stuff would be hard work for a GM - especially if they want to do it convincingly!
Quote from: Géza Echs;637161Hmm. Dreampark, maybe? Or... Crap. What's the name of that older game set in a Callahan's-style outer space bar?
Tales From the Floating Vagabond
Quote from: CRKrueger;637185Tales From the Floating Vagabond
Thank you. I left those books up north when I moved, and it was driving me crazy which one I was thinking of.
Quote from: Géza Echs;637114Precisely, yes.
Rock and roll.
Quote from: jibbajibba on March 03, 2013, 05:46:00 AM
depends on context.
One of my problems with old TSR modules was that there was no internal consistency, if each giant can eat a cow a day and there are 200 giants where are all the cows. Why is there a magic statue that answers riddles ?
So if I wanted something so disconnected I just used the random dungeon generator in the DMG.
If you present yourself as a logical world then I need internal consistency. If you present yourself as a post apocalyptic fantasy world where the Old Ones have triggered the apocalypse to reclaim earth then gnomes on Kangaroos chucking grenades at shoggoths is practically a trope.
8)
Switch Earth with some alien planet similar to Tatooine meets Dune, and you'll get Cha'alt!
Quote from: jeff37923 on March 13, 2013, 11:25:22 AM
I've got all four seasons of Samurai Jack on DVD ...
Don't miss Season 5! It's
different, but at least as awesome.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 03, 2013, 07:19:15 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;633548For example, Heavy Metal as a D&D adventure would be pretty gonzo, but at the same time, it's not slapstick gonzo.
Funny you mention that, because I've found simply adding more METAL will counter the silly in Gonzo.
Quote from: Silverlion;633602Gonzo for me is good.
Silly for me is bad.
This. And it largely depends on how well you can maintain mood and tone.
Like a hand in glove... my monthly YouTube show with Aaron the Pedantic, Gonzo Up Your Ass! Gonzo and metal tastes the best, diluting the worst out of both.
I love gonzo but am bad at it.
A long time ago in 3rd edition I had some PCs discover, in the back of a wizard's abandoned lab, three huge dust and cobweb covered taxidermies of monstrous three eyed tentacled amphibian like creatures standing upright in an unnatural pose with huge musical instruments and strange very ornamented wide brimmed hats. They had to look these things over in torchlight and found out that the musical instruments were non functional replicas resembling some sort of short bass horn with valves and switched built into it, a large unusually configured two hand string instrument related to a lute, and some kind of device with two boxes which were held in each tentacle and linked by something like a collapsible air bellows apparatus which perhaps were squeezed to make a sound as the air was pushed over reeds...
They asked some questions, determined that nothing was valuable or about to explode or spring into unlife and nothing was hiding in the taxidermy so they cast a couple of detect spells on it, got nothing, and just moved on. They kind of took it in stride as a weird thing but didn't see anything to recognize or comment on. Just "he collected some creatures and dressed them up a little? Could be some kind of religious thing?"
After the session one guy comes back to me and says "was that a Tijuana Froghemoth Band?" and I said " YES! Nobody seemed to get it. I'm not sure if they've never seen a Tijuana frog band at a souvenir shop on a road trip or if I didn't describe the froghemoth right or the instruments? Maybe they don't know a brass and string an accordion conjunto type setup? I thought it would get a big laugh or at least some smirks at realizing it's a D&D version of a tacky tchotchke and maybe some groans or head shaking but...nothing. It might as well have been a tapestry with something odd but nonmemorable on it for all the impact it had."
He said "well when it popped into my head what it probably was I thought I had better come and ask you because when we moved on without saying anything you looked so sad."
Quote from: PatW on March 14, 2013, 11:32:30 AM
Remember, D&D is incredibly gonzo right out of the box - we're all just used to it. You've got pun monsters like sea lions, you've got man-eating furniture, you've got half-owl half-bears, you've got giant flying eyeballs with smaller eyeballs that shoot deathrays, you've got robot lobsters that you can drive around. This is the default D&D universe. It's completely ridiculous.
So much this.
"D&D fantasy" is inherently Gonzo.
Yet I always get
a lot of pushback when I point this out to people on other forums.
And one of the first things they cite in D&D's defense usually is:
Quote from: Daddy Warpig on March 14, 2013, 11:32:30 AM
...
We're on the same page here, as well. "Gonzo" worldbuilding relies heavily on the Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool): if it's awesome, it's in. (See China Miéville's Perdido Street Station universe.)
...
Daddy Warpig got it in one... "The Rule of Cool".
And also: "Why would anyone expect verisimilitude in a fantasy setting?"
Yet somehow D&D is not gonzo...
IMHO - Probably because I'm largely interacting with people to whom J.K. Rowling is their Tolkien, and they think Computer rpg games are great examples of 'storytelling'.
Just look at this snippet of a review of the 5e setting book: Mythic Odysseys of Theros
https://www.dicebreaker.com/games/mythic-odysseys-of-theros/feature/dnd-mythic-odysseys-of-theros-preview
"Despite how inescapable the pantheon may seem in Theros, it is easily one of the most complex and entertaining sets of deities that Dungeons & Dragons has ever seen. This is part due to the influences that Wyatt, Schneider and the rest of the Mythic Odysseys team drew upon. Rather than using the traditional Western European-style religions as a basis for inspiration, Mythic Odysseys' pantheon was concocted using the gods of Greek myth. "I find this to be a typical example of what we are dealing with...
More often than not when I point out how baseline D&D is inherently Gonzo, I soon find out they have no idea what I am even talking about because to them: "D&D Fantasy" = "Vanilla" Fantasy.
I'd think running ASE with Gamma World or Mutant Future would be a lot less jarring than AD&D 2e.