Quote from: J Arcane;635677Or maybe the distinction is in the eye of the beholder.

No, something that is stupid masquerading as Gonzo is a case of mislabeling.  Neither slapstick nor goofball surrealism are actually "gonzo".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;636016No, something that is stupid masquerading as Gonzo is a case of mislabeling.  Neither slapstick nor goofball surrealism are actually "gonzo".

RPGPundit

Is Samurai Jack too gonzo?

Quote from: jeff37923;636022Is Samurai Jack too gonzo?

Again, nothing really gonzo is "too gonzo".  I like Samurai Jack and I think its a good level of gonzo; of course it also has some goofy jokes in there for the kids.

RPGPundit

I've never seen Gonzo as 'zany', personally, or any of the predictable 'weirdness' that people tend to attach to it. I look at it as more of a creeping disconcerting effect, almost a moribund horror. When the preconceptions of daily life slip away to reveal something more terrible and completely unpredictable underneath.

Quote from: Géza Echs;636493I've never seen Gonzo as 'zany', personally, or any of the predictable 'weirdness' that people tend to attach to it. I look at it as more of a creeping disconcerting effect, almost a moribund horror. When the preconceptions of daily life slip away to reveal something more terrible and completely unpredictable underneath.

I respectfully disagree. I don't see how a science fantasy setting — like Gamma World, for example — is notably dark or terrible.

Talking, walking plants with psionic powers (riding Gnomish amazons) is pretty much the definition of gonzo, and doesn't twig my "existential horror" meter.

YMMV, obviously.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;636517I respectfully disagree. I don't see how a science fantasy setting — like Gamma World, for example — is notably dark or terrible.

I can't comment on that, since I barely remember Gamma World.

QuoteTalking, walking plants with psionic powers (riding Gnomish amazons) is pretty much the definition of gonzo, and doesn't twig my "existential horror" meter.

YMMV, obviously.

Well, I see where you're coming from. I just tend to cling closer to Thompson's sense of gonzo, akin to RPGPundit's "absurdity of reality" comment upthread. Gonzo elements, I think, should reflect that absurdity, and thus be both terrible and occasionally funny at the same time. As I said, I think too many people mistake that sense of "I have to laugh or I'll crack" that's part of gonzo (as I think of it) for zaniness. And that's not something I care for all that much.

Still, I think I could enjoy a gonzo game as people have discussed here - so long as it isn't a "wacky shit for wacky shit's sake" sort of game. I'd prefer a bit more consistency than that (which is what's so frightening about some of Thompson's writing; the world he depicts is both absurd and perfectly consistent in the quality of its absurdity).

Edit: Forgive me if I'm rambling a bit here and not making a whole lot of sense. It's early, hot, and I'm tired.

Gamma World can be dark and terrifying, or comical.

It's about presentation.





As for Samarai Jack, I can fondly recall two episodes that were brilliant.

One had a plot revolving around Jack's sandal strap being broken, and he was trying to get new sandals because it was difficult to fight without good shoes.

The other had a plot involving a norse warrior that had become an immortal being so strong he could not die in battle to reach Valhalla. He hoped Jack would be able to slay him in battle.

These two episodes were excellent.

Quote from: Bill;636645It's about presentation.





As for Samarai Jack, I can fondly recall two episodes that were brilliant.

One had a plot revolving around Jack's sandal strap being broken, and he was trying to get new sandals because it was difficult to fight without good shoes.

The other had a plot involving a norse warrior that had become an immortal being so strong he could not die in battle to reach Valhalla. He hoped Jack would be able to slay him in battle.

These two episodes were excellent.

I've got all four seasons of Samurai Jack on DVD and there are some great ones in there and you are right, it is all about presentation.

I'd say that for gonzo to work right consistantly, it has to have an ebb and a flow to it. For the baseline, the characters in it must act and react like the setting is real to them, although the situations should vary from the depths of grimdark to the heights of silliness within the setting because you cannot have a steady diet of absurdity without it becomming tedious. Samurai Jack is a good example of Doing It Right in my book.

To get to true "gonzo" you need to go through the RPG Forbidden Zone first.

The "keeping it real" game.

Genesis is not allowed! Is planet forbidden!

Seriously, I've seen way to many glib out of the box games where they don't even bother to "get it". Think about it. I think the best example is COC where you read a Lovecraft story and the game seems incongruous, etc. In regards to D&D specifically its a feeling that people play too modern-like and not the wargame-type of historical reenactment first over "fantasy whatever in all rulings and all aspects". If you fail this, like when D&D tried to homogenize to regain the dress of the IP at the middle of the 80's then you've already "went Gonzo". Its not some kind of "gonzo drag" but its definitely gonzo especially to those who want to adhere to finding the roots of where the S&S fantasy came from.

The minimalist campaign is the worst form of gonzo. Its where the DM is so afraid because of lack of historical chops that they disallow everything. Its gonzo in that it almost becomes the scene from the YELLOW SUBMARINE where the big vacuum sucks up the sea.

Quote from: Géza Echs;636493I've never seen Gonzo as 'zany', personally, or any of the predictable 'weirdness' that people tend to attach to it. I look at it as more of a creeping disconcerting effect, almost a moribund horror. When the preconceptions of daily life slip away to reveal something more terrible and completely unpredictable underneath.

So you mean "fear and loathing"?

Quote from: RPGPundit;636954So you mean "fear and loathing"?

"We can't stop here!  This is bat country!"

Quote from: Géza Echs;636643I just tend to cling closer to Thompson's sense of gonzo [...] Still, I think I could enjoy a gonzo game as people have discussed here

I think we're on the same page — we both acknowledge that, for most people, "gonzo" means "bat-men flying giant mutant pelicans in an attack formation".

(I just know there's an RPG setting where that's possible. Outside of a dream sequence, I mean.)

Quote from: Géza Echs;636643so long as it isn't a "wacky shit for wacky shit's sake" sort of game. I'd prefer a bit more consistency than that

We're on the same page here, as well. "Gonzo" worldbuilding relies heavily on the Rule of Cool: if it's awesome, it's in. (See China Miéville's Perdido Street Station universe.)

My worldbuilding tends towards the deeply internally consistent. I'm just not a gonzo worldbuilder. (Which is why my "gonzo" love is Torg.)

Neither approach is intrinsically better, and I could very much enjoy playing in a batshit-insane universe, it's just not something I could write.

Quote from: RPGPundit;636954So you mean "fear and loathing"?

Precisely, yes.

I think there is room for somewhat gonzo elements even in a very serious campign setting. If the flying monkey tranported goblin commandos have a well explined origion, and are handled logically, it can work.

There is a fine line between 'same old' and 'non-gonzo'

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;637095I think we're on the same page — we both acknowledge that, for most people, "gonzo" means "bat-men flying giant mutant pelicans in an attack formation".

Yeah. Admittedly I'd enjoy the Hell out of a game including stuff like that, though I'd have to grit my teeth a bit when the GM says it's "gonzo". Just my preconceptions getting in the way, though, is all.

Quote(I just know there's an RPG setting where that's possible. Outside of a dream sequence, I mean.)

Hmm. Dreampark, maybe? Or... Crap. What's the name of that older game set in a Callahan's-style outer space bar?

QuoteWe're on the same page here, as well. "Gonzo" worldbuilding relies heavily on the Rule of Cool: if it's awesome, it's in. (See China Miéville's Perdido Street Station universe.)

My worldbuilding tends towards the deeply internally consistent. I'm just not a gonzo worldbuilder. (Which is why my "gonzo" love is Torg.)

I never played TORG, but I've never heard a bad thing about it! Used to sell like hotcakes when I worked at a LGS.

QuoteNeither approach is intrinsically better, and I could very much enjoy playing in a batshit-insane universe, it's just not something I could write.

I think it would be neat to write a batshit-insane universe that's still internally consistent - like that Joe R. Lansdale short story where a passing comet changes local physics on Earth overnight. But it'd be tough to do well. Keeping the basic axioms in mind when creating the fun stuff would be hard work for a GM - especially if they want to do it convincingly!