How Gary Gygax Lost D&D

Settembrini · March 21, 2008, 02:31:51 AM

Quote from: Abyssal MawGygax came out against the OGL at first because (like many people) he didn't really understand or know what it would do.

Gamers are terrific at predicting things. And by terrific, I mean, they suck at it. But they do it constantly. In the Army we had a term for this constantly trying to predict stuff. The term used was (you might laugh) called "Wargaming". A Commander or whatever would say something like "You can't wargame this out on that assumption".

At one point I recall huge numbers of people (industry and fans alike) were completely convinced that the OGL was basicaly going to be used by WOTC as a tool to gather up everyone else's work for resale.

And also a widely agreed upon prediction where everyone agreed that absolutely no other game would ever use d20 as a rules system.

Seeing the possibilities and not falling into the "everyone says so" trap is key.

I´m alongside you for 99%. Only the Gary remark, I´d at least give you something to ponder: All the Gary-created Spells, items and Monsters (which are in the SRD) are now free, forever. I think he knew that.

Settembrini · March 21, 2008, 02:35:27 AM

Folks, you are mudding the waters. EGG did create D&D from whole cloth, whereas the RPG-hobby has several fathers.

Pierce Inverarity · March 21, 2008, 02:36:48 AM

The big white rabbit pwns us all.

EDIT: Do elaborate, Settembrini. Because while Todden etc. are more or less distant forefathers, Arneson was a co-creator of D&D, in a way that is both major and specific.

Settembrini · March 21, 2008, 02:43:27 AM

No, not really.

The Monsters, Spells and Items are all from Gygax. Look into Chainmail, that´s Pre-Arneson. Swiss-Polearm fetish included.

So the building blocks are pretty much by Gygax from whole cloth. HPs and AC are from the Fletcher Pratt game, as I´ve stated oftentimes, that´s from the Arneson-angle. That´s about it regarding his contributions for D&D. The RPG-hobby, now that´s were Arneson really was a major contributor.

Pierce Inverarity · March 21, 2008, 02:56:27 AM

OK, that's true, there IS a lot in Chainmail. Including the PC races. No spells, though?

One caveat: I have the 3rd ed. from 1979, which calls itself revised and expanded. Has anyone seen the first?

That leaves HP/AC, more three-dimensional PCs, and most importantly dungeons. Including the group-style play and the tactics associated therewith, which presumably prompted EGG to flesh out the identity of certain classes. That is still a BIG DEAL.

blakkie · March 21, 2008, 09:14:33 AM

Quote from: SettembriniI´m alongside you for 99%. Only the Gary remark, I´d at least give you something to ponder: All the Gary-created Spells, items and Monsters (which are in the SRD) are now free, forever. I think he knew that.

Not significantly more really than they already were, as you can find in a number of "serial numbers filed off" projects. Evard's Black Tentacles for example is not free, forever. And as has been pointed out ultimately Gary did publish work under the OGL via C&C.

jrients · March 21, 2008, 10:38:13 AM

Quote from: Pierce InverarityOK, that's true, there IS a lot in Chainmail. Including the PC races. No spells, though?

Several spells appear in the fantasy appendix of the first edition, all of which have counterparts in D&D.

jgants · March 21, 2008, 11:05:22 AM

In any event, the point wasn't to diminish Gygax's contributions - the point is that when you have multiple people creating a work of art (in the non-pretentious sense of the word) it's very difficult to talk about who "should" own something because even if one guy created the initial spark of it, a lot of other contributors were key in shaping it into what it became.

The only way to really claim exclusive creative ownership in the non-legal sense is to create something and all its derivative works yourself without any meaningful input from anyone.

Pierce Inverarity · March 21, 2008, 12:48:14 PM

Quote from: jrientsSeveral spells appear in the fantasy appendix of the first edition, all of which have counterparts in D&D.

Well... that's impressive. Having looked at Chainmail a bit more closely, it does already feel like D&D waiting to happen.

But without the dungeons, it wouldn't have.

Seanchai · March 21, 2008, 02:01:16 PM

Quote from: blakkieThat's an interesting story Gary tells. I don't think anyone ever questioned Gary's skill at spinning a yarn.

I've never gotten the impression that Gygax deliberately lied about anything, only that he was wildly inconsistent from one instance to the next. It seems to me that he had a healthy ego and that it colored his recollection of events. But, again, who knows what really happened? Shrug.

Seanchai

arminius · March 21, 2008, 03:27:26 PM

I agree, I don't think we need to see Gygax as deliberately lying. Maybe resisting or ignoring some evidence that didn't fit into his view of things, though. From his perspective, when he saw that Arneson was using Chainmail (albeit it seems only briefly) within Blackmoor, it must have appeared to him that Blackmoor was an evolution or application of Chainmail. But, as I've argued I think with hindsight we can see that Chainmail was a fairly arbitrary module slotted into the more important roleplaying framework developed by Weseley and Arneson.

EDIT: replaced second "evolution" with "application".

jgants · March 21, 2008, 03:31:09 PM

I definately don't think Gygax was ever lying about it.

It's just that memory is a faulty thing. And in cases like this, even moreso.

Again, the exact same thing happened with Kirby and Lee.

Settembrini · March 21, 2008, 03:32:44 PM

I concur: Gary, creator of D&D. RPGs as a hobby: different story, but Gary was there right from the start.

His record is the best: 1/3 RPG Originator, and 95% D&D creator. All others just have some dibs on RPG Originatordom.

arminius · March 21, 2008, 04:28:03 PM

Quote from: SettembriniSwiss-Polearm fetish included.

BTW, this is an interesting angle--I wonder how, to what extent, Gygax's awareness/pride of his Swiss heritage had to do with his polearm fixation.

Pierce Inverarity · March 21, 2008, 04:30:52 PM

C'mon now, dungeons aren't just 5% of Dungeons & Dragons.

They were the fundamental tactical environment. That idea must have prompted EGG to hone his already existing Chainmail ideas accordingly and/or produce new ones to complement them. Just how active A was in that honing/production process, how much Blackmoor actual play was codified into rules (probably a lot) and by whom (probably by EGG), I have no idea. But even so.