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Fantasy tropes, sci-fi tropes, etc. Do you like 'subverted' expectations, like the dragon who abducts the princess is actually a good guy trying to save her from something? Or play it straight, the dragon is a bad guy who likes to eat princesses?
What are your favorite fictional tropes in RPGS, and your least favorite?

I like tropes, but a cleverly subverted trope can be amusing.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1106453Fantasy tropes, sci-fi tropes, etc. Do you like 'subverted' expectations, like the dragon who abducts the princess is actually a good guy trying to save her from something? Or play it straight, the dragon is a bad guy who likes to eat princesses?
What are your favorite fictional tropes in RPGS, and your least favorite?

I like tropes, but a cleverly subverted trope can be amusing.

Tropes are tropes for a reason. Inverting them well is harder than it looks, and should be attempted sparingly.

I like tropes, and I think using tropes as a starting point is a generally solid plan for building campaigns/story/subplot ideas if something isn't already jumping out at you.

I often like tropes with a twist, or maybe that's just adding some detail to the trope -- the holy knight who is fighting some inner/personal demonic possession. I think the Dresden Files is a pretty good example of this, or of more complete "trope subversion".

I used to really like somewhat subverted tropes, as being kind of a "big twist" thing. Or maybe inverted is more like it. But I've soured on that recently (can't imagine why :( ).

I think the trick to good "subversion" is something like remaining true to the spirit or the lesson of the trope, even while changing up the details. The dragon who abducts the princess to save her from something is still an example of values like "strong protecting the weak" and "defending other beings is noble", for example, with different individuals in the roles. Ditto if it were a dragon abducting a young prince, or even something like a princess receiving a prophesy that (just making something up here) a protector dragon that resides in her kingdom is going to be attacked by corrupting forces and turned to evil, so she goes to conceal, defend, and save the dragon. That could be cool.

I guess I'd sum it up by 1) tropes are fun starting points and side angles, but don't make them everything, 2) twists on tropes are fun as long as there is some kernel of value that echoes the original trope and isn't just narcissism and nihilism.

I'm not a fan of trope subversion unless its done very well. Its often hard enough to emulate the tropes properly so they come across as powerful and fresh instead of overdone tripe.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1106453Fantasy tropes, sci-fi tropes, etc. Do you like 'subverted' expectations, like the dragon who abducts the princess is actually a good guy trying to save her from something? Or play it straight, the dragon is a bad guy who likes to eat princesses?
What are your favorite fictional tropes in RPGS, and your least favorite?

I like tropes, but a cleverly subverted trope can be amusing.

Tropes are great for providing a baseline and make the game more engrossing to the Players. The trick is to to set their expectations with tropes and then throw in just one or two subverted tropes to show that the adventure will not go like everything that has been done before.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1106453How fond are you of tropes?

I don't use tropes or memes. Not a fan.

Fuck'em.

Just another word for cliche.

Quote from: RandyB;1106455Tropes are tropes for a reason. Inverting them well is harder than it looks, and should be attempted sparingly.

Yes.  Tropes with some nuance threaded through them is a better route for variation.

I get the impression that whenever a plot device or anything at all is done on TV or another medium, someone writes it up on TVtropes and voila, it's a thing. I don't really get it.

Quote from: The_Shadow;1106496I get the impression that whenever a plot device or anything at all is done on TV or another medium, someone writes it up on TVtropes and voila, it's a thing. I don't really get it.

There is a cultural pattern. Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces, and all that.
I agree that TVtropes tends to drive the topic into the ground, and call every storytelling device a trope.

I like genre/setting elements; it avoids a lot of explaining so the game can get going. I dislike starting from tropes to create an adventure; they're OK if they describe what happened after the fact or follow from the setting. Subverting tropes that arise from the setting details just makes the setting chaotic.

Tropes can die in a fire.

I like tropes, but...

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1106460I think the trick to good "subversion" is something like remaining true to the spirit or the lesson of the trope, even while changing up the details. The dragon who abducts the princess to save her from something is still an example of values like "strong protecting the weak" and "defending other beings is noble", for example, with different individuals in the roles. Ditto if it were a dragon abducting a young prince, or even something like a princess receiving a prophesy that (just making something up here) a protector dragon that resides in her kingdom is going to be attacked by corrupting forces and turned to evil, so she goes to conceal, defend, and save the dragon. That could be cool.

I guess I'd sum it up by 1) tropes are fun starting points and side angles, but don't make them everything, 2) twists on tropes are fun as long as there is some kernel of value that echoes the original trope and isn't just narcissism and nihilism.

This is great too (and well said!).

I do keep half an eye out for when a trope becomes a cliche, eg in my Primeval Thule game over 39 sessions there have been a lot of damsels in need of rescuing from being sacrificed by an evil cult, so I'll be somewhat wary to write another one in. But I'm more likely to put a twist on a trope than subvert it entirely; I reckon the Evil Vizier IMC who replaced the previous (annoying, crotchety, Neutral) sadly-deceased Vizier is just as Evil as everyone thinks, but that doesn't necessarily mean there'll ever be a scripted Downfall moment, he could quite easily stay in power right to the end of the campaign as he manipulates others to ensure his own position, without any scripted obvious screw-ups.

I'm ambivalent about tropes. They easily lead to boring cliche. Intentional subverting of tropes is often even worse. It easily leads to setting incoherence. It can also lead incoherent party conflict where some players try working with the trope while some subvert it. At least one group is going to end up ruining the fun for the other group. I generally prefer to just have the characters and societies in the setting act like they act.

So dragons have some set of behaviors that is, more or less, draconic. Hoarding or guarding treasures is a common behavior. Eating is probably another. The dragon is probably just as happy to eat cattle as damosels, but maybe the superstitious people who live not far from the dragon think that dragons find dainty, virgin flesh especially tasty so they stake out virgins as sacrifices to try and fend off the dragon. And dragons are probably just a bit lazy (helps explain those long naps) and so it will eat the sacrifices set out for it rather than going to the effort of spotting and chasing down a cow. Perhaps, like some man-eating tigers, some dragons do develop a taste for the dainty flesh of virgin sacrifices. But I don't see the situation as replicating or trying to replicate tropes.And the PCs can believe whatever they want about the situation or they can go try to do some research on local history or the behaviors of dragons.

How do you feel about prepositions? Wrenches? The concept of a genre? That's how I feel about tropes. They're tools and convenient ways to organize, describe, and convey material, that's all. They're not something to like or dislike, because they're essential and wide-ranging. It's how they're used and which ones you focus on that define whether they're good or bad. Any discussion of hating or loving tropes in general is based on cherry-picking a limited set of tropes and pretending that's all of them. The reason for that is because we consume media at more than the conscious level, and most things that qualify as tropes pass under our threshold of perception, or immersion. We tend to only notice the ones we consciously look for, or those are specifically called out.

In RPGs, they're particularly useful devices, because it's the GM's responsibility to convey an entire world and scenario almost entirely though conversation. We don't have grand panoramas on screen, a cast of actors who wear social cues written large and evident across their faces, predetermined scripts that can say exactly what we want them to say, or even pages- or chapters-long infodumps (without players revolting). Talking is dynamic and fluid, but it has very limited bandwidth. So we fall on tropes, and those conventions act as shortcuts that allow us to convey all kinds of information, from setting groundrules to behavioral expectations, by leaning on those shared, preexisting assumptions

Quote from: TJS;1106494Fuck'em.

Just another word for cliche.

Slightly disagree with some nuance. Cliche are when you're using a trope in a lazy manner that actually has the opposite effect of a trope.

A well executed trope serves the larger narrative and is almost invisible.

The problem is most people don't know how to do that and it ends up being cliche in execution. This is where the danger-signs for those seeking to subvert a trope often end up making things like The Last Jedi... by not fully understanding what a Trope is and what it's used for, end up creating something horrifying that isn't even cliche... it's just bad.

I like "tropes" when they are relatively close to the source, so for instance Tolkien popularized the fantasy world containing dwarves, elves, hobbits, and orcs. So I prefer such games to be based on Tolkien, not simply "borrowing" the same tropes over and over. I also wouldn't mind a Norse game, in which elves and dwarves are more mysterious, like nature spirits.

Quote from: tenbones;1107210Slightly disagree with some nuance. Cliche are when you're using a trope in a lazy manner that actually has the opposite effect of a trope.

A well executed trope serves the larger narrative and is almost invisible.

The problem is most people don't know how to do that and it ends up being cliche in execution. This is where the danger-signs for those seeking to subvert a trope often end up making things like The Last Jedi... by not fully understanding what a Trope is and what it's used for, end up creating something horrifying that isn't even cliche... it's just bad.

This inspired a thought: do you think it would be fair to say that instances of tropes sit somewhere on a continuum between archetype and cliche?

Something like:

Archetype <---------------------> Trope <---------------------> Cliche

If a trope is too specific/reused/overapplied, you get something like this:

Archetype <------------------------------------------> Trope <--> Cliche

If a trope is too generic/abstract/underspecified, you get something like this:

Archetype <--> Trope <------------------------------------------> Cliche

Actually, it's probably at least 2D with archetype and cliche being surface area sections of the graph (hazarding a guess: specificity and reuse on the axes)?

Though I don't know how to plot what TLJ did on the graph. Large, smoldering hole?

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1107221This inspired a thought: do you think it would be fair to say that instances of tropes sit somewhere on a continuum between archetype and cliche?

Something like:

Archetype <---------------------> Trope <---------------------> Cliche

If a trope is too specific/reused/overapplied, you get something like this:

Archetype <------------------------------------------> Trope <--> Cliche

If a trope is too generic/abstract/underspecified, you get something like this:

Archetype <--> Trope <------------------------------------------> Cliche

Actually, it's probably at least 2D with archetype and cliche being surface area sections of the graph (hazarding a guess: specificity and reuse on the axes)?

Though I don't know how to plot what TLJ did on the graph. Large, smoldering hole?

So... "tropes" are contextual to a whole host of things. They're in many ways mimetic and change as the perceptions and fads of a culture changes - and they tend to be (but not always) specific to a genre. Archetypes do not change - but post-modernists will tell you otherwise (and they would be wrong - their *perspectives* of the Archetype changes, but usually that's just their egos jacking themselves off). So your first diagram is probably the most neutral and safest bet *depending* on the person engaging in the trope itself.

The *ideal* of course is to use archetypal ideas in novel ways and thus engage in a trope in a manner that is subtly guiding the consumer of your work into the Archetypal form. Brave creators aware of the nuances of Archetype and popular tropes within a genre will attempt to really dazzle you and sometimes go full deconstruction-mode with a trope... and that's dangerous and rarely works.

I was literally having this discussion last night with my wife about Fantasy tropes, and how now a lot of SJW tropes are now filtering into popular Fantasy - Grrl Power, Incompetent Men are big ones showing up in historically non-SJW author's work (looking at you Joe Abercrombie).

And yes - once you do it enough, or it's done with zero novelty or thought, it goes full cliche'-mode.

If you want an example of a well done deconstruction of a Trope - like the Heroes Journey, I'd point immediately at Martin's Jaime Lannister character arc in the GoT books. An arguably *rare* example where an entire genre trope of modern Fantasy is deconstructed and executed with (and this is where the arguable part comes in) spectacular results - is R. Scott Bakker's "Prince of Nothing" series (and it's followup trilogy - the "Aspect Emperor").

It's *all* about the execution and sticking the landing. That really hard to do and that's why tropes exist. It's easier to just use a trope creatively rather than trying to mess with the whole the machine. It takes a rare bird with *really* strong skills and understanding of the tropes to break them successfully and not look like a total jackass.

I don't mind tropes, I consider them shorthand for a whole slew of details I won't have to detail. Like, saying 'the creepy old castle' paints a picture better than me going into minutae about cobwebs, candelabras, decaying tapestries (though those things might still come up in specific situations).
Subversion doesn't bother me either, but I prefer the Lovecraftian sort vs. the Scooby Doo type. Lovecraft gives you a creepy old house and a backstory that suggests a vampire... THEN he pulls out the rug by giving you something much weirder. It's still a weird scary thing, just not the one you expected.
What I don't want is the thing where it all looks creepy/spooky and I'm expecing ghosts... and it turns out its all a ruse by a bunch of gangsters to scare people away from their hideout.

Big Al would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

Quote from: tenbones;1107231So... "tropes" are contextual to a whole host of things. They're in many ways mimetic and change as the perceptions and fads of a culture changes - and they tend to be (but not always) specific to a genre. Archetypes do not change - but post-modernists will tell you otherwise (and they would be wrong - their *perspectives* of the Archetype changes, but usually that's just their egos jacking themselves off). So your first diagram is probably the most neutral and safest bet *depending* on the person engaging in the trope itself.

The *ideal* of course is to use archetypal ideas in novel ways and thus engage in a trope in a manner that is subtly guiding the consumer of your work into the Archetypal form. Brave creators aware of the nuances of Archetype and popular tropes within a genre will attempt to really dazzle you and sometimes go full deconstruction-mode with a trope... and that's dangerous and rarely works.

That all makes sense to me.

Quote from: tenbones;1107231I was literally having this discussion last night with my wife about Fantasy tropes, and how now a lot of SJW tropes are now filtering into popular Fantasy - Grrl Power, Incompetent Men are big ones showing up in historically non-SJW author's work (looking at you Joe Abercrombie).

Oh no. :( I haven't had a chance to read Joe Abercrombie yet... sigh.

Quote from: tenbones;1107231And yes - once you do it enough, or it's done with zero novelty or thought, it goes full cliche'-mode.

If you want an example of a well done deconstruction of a Trope - like the Heroes Journey, I'd point immediately at Martin's Jaime Lannister character arc in the GoT books. An arguably *rare* example where an entire genre trope of modern Fantasy is deconstructed and executed with (and this is where the arguable part comes in) spectacular results - is R. Scott Bakker's "Prince of Nothing" series (and it's followup trilogy - the "Aspect Emperor").

YES! Jaime Lannister is a character I *love* and when I met him I expected I'd always hate him. That's a great example.

I haven't read "Prince of Nothing", I will check it out, thanks!

Quote from: TJS;1106494Fuck'em.

Just another word for cliche.

The late, great Alexander Cockburn used to have a semi-regular feature in his column called Tumbril Time. For those who don't want to look it up right now, a tumbril is a wooden cart used to haul horseshit, as well as enemies of the French Revolution to the guillotine. Cockburn gave trite, hackneyed terms and phrases a quick show trial then loaded them on the tumbril to be hauled to the scaffold. At first glance the word trope would seem an ideal candidate for the guillotine, but after seeing every person, place, thing or idea being dubbed a trope, I think any crowd of upstanding citizens would dispense with the show trial and the dung cart and simply tear trope to pieces with their bare hands in the city square.

Quote from: tenbones;1107231I was literally having this discussion last night with my wife about Fantasy tropes, and how now a lot of SJW tropes are now filtering into popular Fantasy - Grrl Power, Incompetent Men are big ones showing up in historically non-SJW author's work (looking at you Joe Abercrombie).

And yes - once you do it enough, or it's done with zero novelty or thought, it goes full cliche'-mode.

How so Tenbones? he was on my to read list though not so sure now as when they include SJW style elements it usually makes a story worse not better.

Charles Stross Laundry novels have been hit with a not so healthy does of SJWism so to speak. Warning potential spoiler ahead for one novel.

At one point in the The Rhesus Chart Warning Spolier:  Bob love interest Dominique walks in and catches Bob talking to an ex-girlfriend and proceeds to take out her Erich Zann violin to attack them both simply because the ex-girlfriend was wearing a one of bo sweathers and nothing else. No "omg she is home too early" or any other form of cheating just wearing a frigging sweater and the love interest goes all psycho. I repeat the main character talking to his ex while they are having breakfest. So right their I was worried for the next novel. Which has Girl power and incompetent male characters written all over it and where Stross is shown to be firmly drinking the SJW kool-aid.

In The Annihilation Score which is centered around Dominique and it all about her and how it's ok for her to cheat on Bob because he has been neglecting her so go Girl power I guess. The character receives training yet is also suddenly super competent and of course even if we never saw it in previous novels somehow has been suffering misogyny from other men. Apparently bob is suddenly very my much in denial about their relationship which up until this novel we saw zero, less than zero in the negatives issues about their relationship in the previous novels. Where Bob is very much the loving, caring husband. It make me hate the character so much as she became a favorite to misandrist piece of crap. Warning spoiler yeah boo hoo poor BOB is neglecting you maybe it has to do with the character being possessed by a Lovecraftian horror which made him scream non-stop until his vocal cords gave out and even then he kept screaming to needing about enough medication to be sedated that would knock out 1-2 stables worth of horses. While needing months of recovery both physically and mentally. The way the character is written he probably will never be 100%. Poor Dominique is so neglected. It pissed me off so much I sold off the entire series. If one most go full SJW in their writings do so. Jesus Christ don't ruin the entire series to do so. Maybe if someone can tell me the next novel after this one is better I may buy into the series again if not Charles SJW Stross can go fuck himself.

I don't mind tropes that much especially if the serve a purpose.

Too many fantasy rpgs have humanity as being the top dog, most powerful race in the setting. With no advantage beyond being able to reproduce as rabbits and a drive to succeed. As if none of the other fantasy races never wan to get ahead.

Quote from: sureshot;1114095How so Tenbones?

Well the protagonist in Best Serve Cold is a woman. Maybe that was too much?

Quote from: Bren;1114097Well the protagonist in Best Serve Cold is a woman. Maybe that was too much?

That would not bother me at all. Just as long as the other male characters are not suddenly useless compared to the female character.

Quote from: Pat;1107111How do you feel about prepositions? Wrenches? The concept of a genre? That's how I feel about tropes. They're tools and convenient ways to organize, describe, and convey material, that's all. *snipped for brevity*

Pretty much this specifically and the post in general. I may dislike certain specific tropes or the implementation of them, but saying they should die in a fire is like saying paragraphs should be unceremoniously dumped into the depths of the sea just cuz you don't like walls of text--the problem is people's writing style, not the idea of grouping text into blocks, which is almost an inevitable end result of writing.

Regarding tropes in RPGs, I tend to prefer classical or literary fantasy tropes over derivative D&D tropes. For example, I don't like the idea that "clerics/priests heal; wizards destroy" or "clerics/priests wear armor (which they usually don't IRL)" cuz these are strictly "It's a game" conventions born out of D&D specifically, rather than the universal order of things or the way things "should" work. Granted, these are more like world-building and game design concerns rather than stuff directly linked to adventure design and if you're playing D&D or derivative games you're pretty much stuck with them, but I don't operate under those assumptions when designing my own worlds or systems.

Quote from: sureshot;1114095How so Tenbones? he was on my to read list though not so sure now as when they include SJW style elements it usually makes a story worse not better.

Charles Stross Laundry novels have been hit with a not so healthy does of SJWism so to speak. Warning potential spoiler ahead for one novel.

Stross is a good example of the problem.  He is capable of writing a good story--strong narrative, interesting characters, some subtlety to the plot.  As soon as he starts in on his SJW stuff, all of his ability goes clean out the window.  Not to mention, that his brain also turns off completely.  It was so bad in one of his series that I didn't even take the books to a used book store.  Stopped mid book on the third one and tossed all three in the trash.  Won't even check his books out of the library now.

Tropes are my bread and butter. one of the most useful tools for building scenarios or stories. We love em because we know em. And subverting them is just as good.

Il take a well executed classic trope then a bland deconstruction or subversion any-day.

People only care about the subversion but not the quality of the work after the subversion. Thats why so many modern Disney films have "Subversive" villains that have the screen presence of a paper bag.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1106453Fantasy tropes, sci-fi tropes, etc. Do you like 'subverted' expectations, like the dragon who abducts the princess is actually a good guy trying to save her from something? Or play it straight, the dragon is a bad guy who likes to eat princesses?
What are your favorite fictional tropes in RPGS, and your least favorite?

I like tropes, but a cleverly subverted trope can be amusing.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114181Il take a well executed classic trope then a bland deconstruction or subversion any-day.

People only care about the subversion but not the quality of the work after the subversion. Thats why so many modern Disney films have "Subversive" villains that have the screen presence of a paper bag.

I thought the Russian romantic fantasy film I Am Dragon (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4057376/) did a decent job of both retelling the traditional dragon/princess story and flipping on its head.

I like any fantasy that isn't another uninspired clone of Tolkien. Norse and Slavic fantasy are a breath of fresh air despite their ancient origins.

Recently I watched the 1957 animated adaptation of The Snow Queen (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050987/) (the 90s dub with Kirsten Dunst) and I liked the fairy tale feel. Despite being 175 years old this year it still feels a lot more progressive than a lot of modern "progressive" media. The cast is almost entirely female and represent a broad spectrum of backgrounds, so I'm bummed we never got any kind of big Disney movie which gave each of them detailed histories and personalities. (Frozen doesn't count.)

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114187(Frozen doesn't count.)

I actually grew up with that Fairytale in its original dub (though from what I understand the original tale was more religious and was adapted to the USSR). Originally I was quite upset as to what I saw a bastardization of a really good story by Disney.
But then I realized that's mostly what Disney does. So no-Frozen DOES count. Frozen counts PERFECTLY.
I find progressivism values other cultures only in the way it can change things. Only in what reflections of itself it can see in these stories. It picks and chooses like a tourist at a foreign bouffe and feels pleased with itself for being so accepting and inclusive.
I don't trust progressives with my culture.

That's not to say Slavic stories aren't filled with clever flip-ups either (This is a "Modern" for the time retelling of a classic executed well (https://youtu.be/VCoyj9UNjz4)). But As much as the Knight and Dragon are "Stock" elements of Tolkien-esque fantasy, so are characters like Baba Yaga, Koschei the Deathless, and other such elements of Slavic culture.

The modern way I see of adapting such characters is "What if Baba Yaga was the good one all along and people just called her bad names because they didn't like how she was ugly."

I don't mind tropes. I think my only real issue with them is the same issue I have with creative exercises in general; my mind tends to gravitate towards particular types of tropes/conceits, and when I get stuck in a creative rut my brain tends to produce the same types of things over and over again. That is part of why I find random generators for NPCs, plot hooks, etc. so useful is that they help my brain break out into a broader variety of inspirations than I would normally produce just working off my own ideas. Some of these may end up being tropes themselves (just a different type from what my brain usually shoots to), or a cleverly subversive thing I stumble on to by accident.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1114197That is part of why I find random generators for NPCs, plot hooks, etc. so useful is that they help my brain break out into a broader variety of inspirations than I would normally produce just working off my own ideas. Some of these may end up being tropes themselves (just a different type from what my brain usually shoots to), or a cleverly subversive thing I stumble on to by accident.

I sometimes use random generators for this purpose as well. Often I don't even use the thing I roll, I just roll a couple of times to get my brain started and then I head off in whatever direction the flow of ideas takes me. If need more ideas I may roll again, or revisit old ideas to review them in a new light.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114192I actually grew up with that Fairytale in its original dub (though from what I understand the original tale was more religious and was adapted to the USSR). Originally I was quite upset as to what I saw a bastardization of a really good story by Disney.
But then I realized that's mostly what Disney does. So no-Frozen DOES count. Frozen counts PERFECTLY.
I find progressivism values other cultures only in the way it can change things. Only in what reflections of itself it can see in these stories. It picks and chooses like a tourist at a foreign bouffe and feels pleased with itself for being so accepting and inclusive.
I don't trust progressives with my culture.

What I meant is that Frozen is actually less feminist than The Snow Queen, precisely because it throws the original story aside in favor of an original story that mocks Disney cliches and uses pop-feminism in a cash grab.

Gerda is a feminist heroine who is still feminine. Her story is uniquely feminine rather than just taking a traditional masculine protagonist and giving him a sex change. The Robber Girl and her mother are the only action girls in the original story and the fact that they are strong independent women is never remarked upon. Hans just took it for granted than women could do all those things in his story, and that's more feminist than a lot of modern lunacy.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114192That's not to say Slavic stories aren't filled with clever flip-ups either (This is a "Modern" for the time retelling of a classic executed well (https://youtu.be/VCoyj9UNjz4)). But As much as the Knight and Dragon are "Stock" elements of Tolkien-esque fantasy, so are characters like Baba Yaga, Koschei the Deathless, and other such elements of Slavic culture.

The modern way I see of adapting such characters is "What if Baba Yaga was the good one all along and people just called her bad names because they didn't like how she was ugly."

I agree that this is absurd. Baba Yaga isn't generically evil IIRC, but more like the Fair Folk. Aren't there several stories where she serves a fairy godmother role to the heroine?

Quote from: VisionStorm;1114200I sometimes use random generators for this purpose as well. Often I don't even use the thing I roll, I just roll a couple of times to get my brain started and then I head off in whatever direction the flow of ideas takes me. If need more ideas I may roll again, or revisit old ideas to review them in a new light.

Exactly! This is how I use them as well, I rarely treat generators as gospel but rather a set of dynamic inspirational tools. For similar reasons I like to use a lot of wildly different generators from different authors rather than sticking to a single set (unless I'm striking for a particular theme), because the writers of generators also usually have some creative biases of their own; in addition, when generators are presented in different formats it forces my brain to engage more actively in interpretation.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114206What I meant is that Frozen is actually less feminist than The Snow Queen, precisely because it throws the original story aside in favor of an original story that mocks Disney cliches and uses pop-feminism in a cash grab.

Original story? I grew up on the The Snow Queen, it's one of the 2 or 3 most influential stories of my childhood. When I watched Frozen, I fully expected it to be based on that story, but it wasn't. Aside from the cold weather, I couldn't name a single character or plot element the two stories have in common. No mirror, no splinters, no devil, no children, no sleigh, no garden, and no robbers. Instead there were super-powers, cutesy trolls, and a pair of princesses.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114206I agree that this is absurd. Baba Yaga isn't generically evil IIRC, but more like the Fair Folk. Aren't there several stories where she serves a fairy godmother role to the heroine?

She's a cannibal witch. She's indisputably evil. But she's also very protective of innocents, keeps promises, and even helps heroes. That's not a contradiction in any way, because until alignment came along nobody thought evil meant literally every aspect of an evil person's character had to be the opposite of good.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114187I thought the Russian romantic fantasy film I Am Dragon (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4057376/) did a decent job of both retelling the traditional dragon/princess story and flipping on its head.

That film was an unexpected pleasure.

Quote from: Pat;1114228She's a cannibal witch. She's indisputably evil. But she's also very protective of innocents, keeps promises, and even helps heroes. That's not a contradiction in any way, because until alignment came along nobody thought evil meant literally every aspect of an evil person's character had to be the opposite of good.

It is certainly possible to treat Alignment as being monolithic and on the other hand how many babies can you eat before it cancels out all of the promise keeping that you do?

Quote from: Shasarak;1114238It is certainly possible to treat Alignment as being monolithic and on the other hand how many babies can you eat before it cancels out all of the promise keeping that you do?

One is usually enough.

I think you missed the point, which is that evil can have redeeming characteristics, and still be unambiguously evil. Evil outside of comedy or trite morality plays is never unremittingly wicked in every possible aspect, and the tendency to treat it that way is one of the less salubrious tendencies of the modern world. Nor do any positive, humanizing elements excuse the evil.

Quote from: Pat;1114251One is usually enough.

I think you missed the point, which is that evil can have redeem characteristics, and still be unambiguously evil. Evil outside of comedy or trite morality plays is never unremittingly wicked in every possible aspect, and the tendency to treat it that way is one of the less salubrious tendencies of the modern world. Nor do any positive, humanizing elements excuse the evil.

If you want to make an interesting evil character in the game then they need to be more evil, to really accent that evil and be larger then life otherwise they may as well be evil cultist number 3.

Quote from: Shasarak;1114253If you want to make an interesting evil character in the game then they need to be more evil, to really accent that evil and be larger then life otherwise they may as well be evil cultist number 3.

That's false. They just need a personality and motivation.

And Baba Yaga eats people, so I don't see how your statement has anything to do with anything I've said.

Anything can be considered a trope, and TvTropes is kind of corrosive in the snarking sense that "ah ha! It's been done before so it's a trope so it's stupid!" Does TvTropes have a trope of that?

I like it when a few details paint a vivid picture in everyone's mind. It's cool that you can say "Mad Max meets He-Man" and people can be 80% on the same page. Or at least common expectations without having to spell everything out.

I'm personally a sucker for ancient, long-gone civilizations, ruins, collapses, ancient magic fading away, etc. - anything that indicates cyclical history. I never liked Dwarves except in the Hobbit, and as far as games go, only liked the Elf in the Heroquest board game.

My setting used to have Dwelfings: short, hairy, pointed eared axe-throwers, who live in wooded hills near mountains who rarely adventure (though are always on one) despite being of crudely conceived ancient lineage.

Quote from: Pat;1114228She's a cannibal witch. She's indisputably evil. But she's also very protective of innocents, keeps promises, and even helps heroes. That's not a contradiction in any way, because until alignment came along nobody thought evil meant literally every aspect of an evil person's character had to be the opposite of good.

I'm sure that describes most gods and demons from mythology. The gods have terrible personality flaws that result in wars and genocides. There are plenty of times when man-eating monsters show mercy to humans ("hero raised by ogres" is a old trope noted by folklorists).

It's almost like they reflect how multi-faceted, introspective, violent, self-destructive, guilt-ridden, and self-loathing humans can be.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114206What I meant is that Frozen is actually less feminist than The Snow Queen, precisely because it throws the original story aside in favor of an original story that mocks Disney cliches and uses pop-feminism in a cash grab.

Sorry for being all Jumpy. The worldplay used by the left has just got me so mixed up. What the heck does "Feminist" even mean nowadays? In practice, it means to be a damsel in distress just make sure that the men don't point this fact out.

Quote from: Shasarak;1114238It is certainly possible to treat Alignment as being monolithic and on the other hand how many babies can you eat before it cancels out all of the promise keeping that you do?

Baba Yaga is evil with redeeming features. Shes functioned both as an antagonist or protagonist depending on the story. Sometimes both.

If she keeps the promise of letting you have the magic sword to kill the three-headed mega dragon...Well I guess it cancels out someway?
Russian fairytales are pretty rad. Its a mixture of paganistic worldbuilding with Christian underpinnings:

"And then the good christian....PUT THE MONSTER IN A HEADLOCK!"

So yeah, Im a big fan of tropes.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114271Sorry for being all Jumpy. The worldplay used by the left has just got me so mixed up. What the heck does "Feminist" even mean nowadays?

Current definition of feminist: a person who thinks men and masculinity are inherently evil and oppressive and need to be totally emasculated and subjugated and have their agency stripped and destroyed in order to create a just and fair society.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114271Baba Yaga is evil with redeeming features. Shes functioned both as an antagonist or protagonist depending on the story. Sometimes both.

If she keeps the promise of letting you have the magic sword to kill the three-headed mega dragon...Well I guess it cancels out someway?
Russian fairytales are pretty rad. Its a mixture of paganistic worldbuilding with Christian underpinnings:

"And then the good christian....PUT THE MONSTER IN A HEADLOCK!"

So yeah, Im a big fan of tropes.

I LOVE Russian fairy tales. So flavorful and interesting. It's a shame so many of the older ones have been lost to time or mangled beyond their original meaning. I draw lots of inspiration from them to create fantasy creatures and villains for my homebrew setting's Russia-inspired nation.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1114276I LOVE Russian fairy tales. So flavorful and interesting. It's a shame so many of the older ones have been lost to time or mangled beyond their original meaning.

Well, you find a lot more of them if you're Russian. Being mangled is part of the fun! Gives new flavors to stuff.
Russian Fairytales are one of the only things to survive generally intact under the Soviet Union without too much propaganda.

Russian Fairytales in allot of ways are meant to be passed down through oral tradition. That's why they have so much repetition. Because its meant to loop like a song.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114278Well, you find a lot more of them if you're Russian.

Yes, this has definitely been a big barrier for me, even with translators! Sad to say some of them, even when I do find and am able to read them, are still beyond my ability to conceptualize without annotation. :o My cultural understanding is pretty poor I guess, despite my interest.

 

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114278Russian Fairytales in allot of ways are meant to be passed down through oral tradition.

From my (admittedly hazy) understanding, that is why a lot of the earlier ones were lost over time. Some just never got written down, which is a shame.

Quote from: Pat;1114261That's false. They just need a personality and motivation.

And Baba Yaga eats people, so I don't see how your statement has anything to do with anything I've said.

If I understand you correctly you claim that Alignment stops you from making character distinctions.

If that is what you are saying then you have an incorrect understanding of alignment.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114271Baba Yaga is evil with redeeming features. Shes functioned both as an antagonist or protagonist depending on the story. Sometimes both.

If she keeps the promise of letting you have the magic sword to kill the three-headed mega dragon...Well I guess it cancels out someway?
Russian fairytales are pretty rad. Its a mixture of paganistic worldbuilding with Christian underpinnings:

"And then the good christian....PUT THE MONSTER IN A HEADLOCK!"

So yeah, Im a big fan of tropes.

I think the reason why Baba Yaga works is that she is such a trope ie that of the Evil Queen or in current terminology Toxic Femininity.

Quote from: Shasarak;1114305I think the reason why Baba Yaga works is that she is such a trope ie that of the Evil Queen or in current terminology Toxic Femininity.

I guess she could be examined as an expression as such (Much more evil crone then queen), but I generally keep away politics from my folk-tales.
The one thing I super regret that SJWs have done to me is impress their mindset onto mine. Everything is polical all the time and there is no space for honest enjoyment.

This is something I feel super bad about, and to a certain extent what they wanted. So when possible I try to get away from it.

Quote from: Shasarak;1114302If I understand you correctly you claim that Alignment stops you from making character distinctions.

I never said or implied that. What I did, twice, is suggest that alignment is correlated with defining villains solely in terms negative traits. Note there's no "stop" in either of those posts. In the first case, I simply stated that the appearance of that phenomenon was linked to the emergence of alignment, and made no claim it was an absolute. And in the second case, I used the word "tendency". Given the subject, the way you inserted absolutes into my posts is kind of ironic.

There's nothing about alignment that forces anyone to attribute only negative or reversed traits to evil characters, but many people do seem to get trapped in that type of dualistic thinking. Evil is not the opposite of good, and creating characters based on that mentality leads to absurd results. Characters, first and foremost, need to have human traits. Even iconic or mythic characters, wreathed in symbolism, just have the traits written large. Evil emerges from those traits. It can be when negative traits become overwhelming, but it's often when good or neutral traits are taken to extremes, or based on the decisions made when good or neutral traits are in conflict. It's not a simple inversion of good.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114318I guess she could be examined as an expression as such (Much more evil crone then queen), but I generally keep away politics from my folk-tales.
The one thing I super regret that SJWs have done to me is impress their mindset onto mine. Everything is polical all the time and there is no space for honest enjoyment.

You can't really express Baba Yaga in terms of modern politics. She doesn't fit nicely into any of the niches, and any attempts to force her into one diminishes her.

Having an old forest witch with a chicken legged hut in your game is a trope, but Baba Yaga herself isn't a "trope".  Rather she is an instantiation of an archetype, that of the cannibal or devouring feminine crone.  If you want to capture the same archetypal feel you need to invent your own sinister witch like NPC villain.  

This figure may use magic to appear young and beautiful, but must actually be old and ugly.  She is past the age of any sexual desirability or child rearing.  She may pretend to be kind or maternal, but this must be only a cover for her cannibalistic nature.  She is in this way an inversion of feminine virtue who preys upon the most vulnerable. She must exist on the fringes or outskirts of society, but also appear anywhere and move around at will.  She is a unpredictable and universal threat. At the same time, she possesses powerful magic and many magical artifacts.  She could be a resource for the very brave or very stupid PC.

While an inversion of feminine virtue she still IS feminine in a classic and stereotypical sense.  She is not interested in politics usually, except when it affects her ego, or when it can be used as a lever to get what she really wants.  She may also be willing to let PCs travel through her realms unmolested if they do her some small favor of grant her some kind of trinket, but she will remember them and that's probably a very bad thing.  Think of every narcissistic slighted woman you've ever met and you're getting close to the mark.  

Approaching all archetypes should be done in this way.  First figure out what the archetype is all about, then make your fresh version.  This way you avoid superficial copying and the obvious cliched nature of pop culture tropes.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114318I guess she could be examined as an expression as such (Much more evil crone then queen), but I generally keep away politics from my folk-tales.
The one thing I super regret that SJWs have done to me is impress their mindset onto mine. Everything is polical all the time and there is no space for honest enjoyment.

This is something I feel super bad about, and to a certain extent what they wanted. So when possible I try to get away from it.

Its not really political, the male version is the Tyrant King.  If I was to map the tropes to the DnD Alignment system the Good King (LG), the Tyrant (LE), the Good Queen (CG) and the Evil Queen (CE)

Quote from: Shasarak;1114336Its not really political, the male version is the Tyrant King.  If I was to map the tropes to the DnD Alignment system the Good King (LG), the Tyrant (LE), the Good Queen (CG) and the Evil Queen (CE)

Interesting that masculine/feminine maps to Law/Chaos... paging Dr. Peterson. ;)

Quote from: Brendan;1114337Interesting that masculine/feminine maps to Law/Chaos... paging Dr. Peterson. ;)

But what of Lobsters? :eek:

Quote from: Antiquation!;1114338But what of Lobsters? :eek:

Lobsters use the AD&D druid progression rules.  In order to move up a lobster level you must challenge and defeat a higher level lobster.

QuoteThere are only nine lobsters of level twelve; each has three assistants.  These assistants are the same level for each lobster, but each lobster has higher level assistants according to the relationship between their current experience.  Thus, the twelfth-level Lobster with the least experience (in points) is served by three level-one lobsters, and the one with the most experience is served by three ninth-level lobsters.  The single thirteenth-level Archlobster is served by three initiates of the eighth circle, and the fourteenth-level Great Lobster is served by nine initiates of the ninth circle.  These servitors and protectors are not henchmen; the lobsters may have henchmen in addition to this.

A character may only achieve twelfth-level Lobster if there is a vacancy or he bests one of the nine current Lobsters in spell or hand-to-hand combat.  If the combat is not mortal, the loser drops to the beginning of level eleven, initiate of the ninth circle.  This process is repeated for becoming the thirteenth-level Archlobster (with the loser reverting to Lobster) and the fourteenth-level Great Lobster (with the loser reverting to Archlobster).

Quote from: Brendan;1114339Lobsters use the AD&D druid progression rules.  In order to move up a lobster level you must challenge and defeat a higher level lobster.

A version of the Little Mermaid done using that would be a lot more interesting. :)

Quote from: Antiquation!;1114338But what of Lobsters? :eek:

Neutral, they defy arbitrary Lawful/Chaotic labeling systems.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1114340A version of the Little Mermaid done using that would be a lot more interesting. :)

If Sebastian levels a bunch of times, he'll have to challenge Ursula.

Quote from: Brendan;1114339Lobsters use the AD&D druid progression rules.  In order to move up a lobster level you must challenge and defeat a higher level lobster.

So what you're saying is that we should live in the way of the lobsters, but in order to do that we would all need train as AD&D Druids to climb up the lobster hierarchy, which by extension would make us all of True Neutral alignment?

Quote from: Brendan;1114330Having an old forest witch with a chicken legged hut in your game is a trope, but Baba Yaga herself isn't a "trope".  Rather she is an instantiation of an archetype, that of the cannibal or devouring feminine crone.  If you want to capture the same archetypal feel you need to invent your own sinister witch like NPC villain.  

This figure may use magic to appear young and beautiful, but must actually be old and ugly.  She is past the age of any sexual desirability or child rearing.  She may pretend to be kind or maternal, but this must be only a cover for her cannibalistic nature.  She is in this way an inversion of feminine virtue who preys upon the most vulnerable. She must exist on the fringes or outskirts of society, but also appear anywhere and move around at will.  She is a unpredictable and universal threat. At the same time, she possesses powerful magic and many magical artifacts.  She could be a resource for the very brave or very stupid PC.

While an inversion of feminine virtue she still IS feminine in a classic and stereotypical sense.  She is not interested in politics usually, except when it affects her ego, or when it can be used as a lever to get what she really wants.  She may also be willing to let PCs travel through her realms unmolested if they do her some small favor of grant her some kind of trinket, but she will remember them and that's probably a very bad thing.  Think of every narcissistic slighted woman you've ever met and you're getting close to the mark.  

Approaching all archetypes should be done in this way.  First figure out what the archetype is all about, then make your fresh version.  This way you avoid superficial copying and the obvious cliched nature of pop culture tropes.

This is a good post.

Baba Yaga is very much not the 'evil queen' trope, although I suppose she might have been an 'evil queen' a very long time ago. The evil queen is both vain and insecure about her fading beauty, determined to destroy younger and more beautiful female rivals. Cersei Lannister and the queen in Snow White both exemplify this trope. Baba Yaga is the witch-hag trope.

The Evil Queen represents mature female sexuality as a negative force. A couple other fictional examples more male-directed would be Servalan in Blake's 7 and the White Witch of Narnia. The Crone is definitely post-menopausal.

Quote from: Brendan;1114337Interesting that masculine/feminine maps to Law/Chaos... paging Dr. Peterson. ;)

It's not even true, either.

The Egyptian goddess Ma'at is the personification of order. The masculine demon Apep/Apophis is the personification of chaos.

Loki is a gender bender. The Norse gods are dicks.

Athena is a goddess of wisdom and orderly warfare. The other gods are psychotic mass murderers and rapists.

Tiamat had a husband named Apsu/Abzu, another masculine personification of chaos.

Chaos and order have nothing to do with specific genders in the human psyche. Humans in general are orderly, because we define and dislike chaos.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114399Chaos and order have nothing to do with specific genders in the human psyche. Humans in general are orderly, because we define and dislike chaos.

That's not true humans always are looking for new things, new experiences, the latest news.  They dislike staid and boring routine orderliness.

Quote from: Brendan;1114339Lobsters use the AD&D druid progression rules.  In order to move up a lobster level you must challenge and defeat a higher level lobster.

:D LOL, that's hilarious. Gave me a good chuckle.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1114352So what you're saying is that we should live in the way of the lobsters, but in order to do that we would all need train as AD&D Druids to climb up the lobster hierarchy, which by extension would make us all of True Neutral alignment?

That's not what I'm saying at all!

Also yes.

Quote from: S'mon;1114394This is a good post.

Baba Yaga is very much not the 'evil queen' trope, although I suppose she might have been an 'evil queen' a very long time ago. The evil queen is both vain and insecure about her fading beauty, determined to destroy younger and more beautiful female rivals. Cersei Lannister and the queen in Snow White both exemplify this trope. Baba Yaga is the witch-hag trope.

The Evil Queen represents mature female sexuality as a negative force. A couple other fictional examples more male-directed would be Servalan in Blake's 7 and the White Witch of Narnia. The Crone is definitely post-menopausal.

Thanks S'mon! And yes, I agree re the Evil Queen.  I'm not familiar with Blake's 7 though.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1114399It's not even true, either.

The Egyptian goddess Ma'at is the personification of order. The masculine demon Apep/Apophis is the personification of chaos.

Loki is a gender bender. The Norse gods are dicks.

Athena is a goddess of wisdom and orderly warfare. The other gods are psychotic mass murderers and rapists.

Tiamat had a husband named Apsu/Abzu, another masculine personification of chaos.

Chaos and order have nothing to do with specific genders in the human psyche. Humans in general are orderly, because we define and dislike chaos.

I question some of your attribution above, but that's really besides the point. I was riffing on something someone else said and commenting on their mapping, which I thought was interesting and revealing, not trying to start a archetypal attribution debate.    

Quote from: Antiquation!;1114417:D LOL, that's hilarious. Gave me a good chuckle.

Thanks man.  That was the intention.

Quote from: Brendan;1114339Lobsters use the AD&D druid progression rules.  In order to move up a lobster level you must challenge and defeat a higher level lobster.

Oh, so evolution is just multi-classing?

There is an orderly and chaotic aspect to both the masculine and the feminine archetype. The more important thing is that the nature of each is different in each.