Quote from: mcbobbo;651007But do good writers make good games, necessary? Seems like different skillsets. I would prefer decent writing with great game design, personally. I couldn't get out of the first chapter of Septimus, so poor writing is definitely an issue.

Good writing makes even bad games more enjoyable! I had the perfect comparison example, a blog post from "Cog and Galley" describing how the canny old Doge of Venice tricked an army of bumpkin crusaders into taking Constantinople for him, compared with the almost unreadable wikipedia entry, but of course the blog has more or less vanished from the internet. Damn shame too, it was a fantastic resource.

I'd say quality writing is as important as quality art, if not more so.

Quote from: HaffrungYeah. I'm a technical writer, and you're playing with fire if you try to write instructions or rules in a bantering tone. For everyone who enjoys that particular tone, another person will dislike it. D&D now has an audience ranging from 14 to 60, so it's hard to imagine a distinctive tone that would work for every, or even most, readers.

No. Your experience is very valuable for a whole lot of jobs, but writing RPGs ain't among them. Technical style writing is what makes wikipedia hard to absorb, you need a more engaging and gonzo (in the Hunter S Thompson sense) style to produce a fun and entertaining game.

The 1E books are the last D&D books I ever read.  Everything since, I simply browse through, digest the information I need to make a character, maybe glance at the spell section and close the book(s), only to open them when I need a rule clarification.  Hell, even when I'm not playing, I reread the 1E DMG every once in a while.  Not to simply refresh myself on the rules, but for entertainment.  The same way I'd park myself in a recliner with a good novel.  Try that with today's rpgs and I'd either shoot myself or fall asleep.

Quote from: RPGPundit;650926I have strongly supported the idea of there being a "random table" option for backgrounds.

I just steal and re-use the Lifepath section from Mekton. Works like a charm.

Quote from: The Traveller;651045Good writing makes even bad games more enjoyable! I had the perfect comparison example, a blog post from "Cog and Galley" describing how the canny old Doge of Venice tricked an army of bumpkin crusaders into taking Constantinople for him, compared with the almost unreadable wikipedia entry, but of course the blog has more or less vanished from the internet. Damn shame too, it was a fantastic resource.

I'd say quality writing is as important as quality art, if not more so.

No. Your experience is very valuable for a whole lot of jobs, but writing RPGs ain't among them. Technical style writing is what makes wikipedia hard to absorb, you need a more engaging and gonzo (in the Hunter S Thompson sense) style to produce a fun and entertaining game.

For setting material and background information, I'd agree. But not for the instructional content itself (except for examples).

Quote from: Haffrung;651056For setting material and background information, I'd agree. But not for the instructional content itself (except for examples).

I'd more or less agree with this. And this discussion illustrates the problem (or one of many): D&D can't be all things to all people.

Quote from: Haffrung;651056For setting material and background information, I'd agree. But not for the instructional content itself (except for examples).

Well it's not an either-or prospect, there are shades of grey. Rules should be delivered clearly and concisely but you can put a personal spin on the delivery without compromising the delivery. These are entertainment products at the end of the day after all.

My theory on writing RPG rules. The following are the important considerations, in (rough) descending order of importance.

• The rule itself should be written clearly, in plain English, to minimize confusion.


• Rules which need examples, should have them.


• A rulebook should be structured so as to teach the game: clearly labeled sections, in a coherent order, more important rules first. Within a section, simpler concepts first, more advanced second.


• The rulebook should be structured in such a way it can easily be used as a reference work. (A great index is a plus.)


• RPG's not only have to instruct people how to play, they have to convey the feel of the game. It's important to clearly communicate, but also communicate with style.


• Tone and style is not your enemy. But neither is taste and restraint. If the game is about cowboys, writing every sentence in a stylized 1880's accent — "Howdy, pardner. Welcome to the Cattle and Killin' RPG! Yeehaw!" — is obnoxious. A little color goes a long way. (Graphic design can help here, as well.)
  

That's off the top of my head.

Quote from: The Traveller;651045Good writing makes even bad games more enjoyable! I had the perfect comparison example, a blog post from "Cog and Galley" describing how the canny old Doge of Venice tricked an army of bumpkin crusaders into taking Constantinople for him, compared with the almost unreadable wikipedia entry, but of course the blog has more or less vanished from the internet. Damn shame too, it was a fantastic resource.

I'd say quality writing is as important as quality art, if not more so.

I am definitely in this camp. I'm not super demanding about the writing, but what it has to do is convey that the writer thinks it's a fun game to play, and the better it does this the less I care about other factors. I mean, Gygax sure had his flaws as a writer, but he was totally into what he was writing and that more than anything is why people hold him up as a gold standard of RPG writing, lack of organization be damned.

update:

QuoteTone and style is not your enemy. But neither is restraint. If the game is about cowboys, writing every sentence in a stylized 1880's accent — "Howdy, pardner. Welcome to the Cattle and Killin' RPG! Yeehaw!" — is obnoxious. A little color goes a long way. (Graphic design can help here, as well.)

Of course, the RPG writer should not shit himself with how much fun he's having, a certain level of craft is required

Quote from: jeff37923;651053I just steal and re-use the Lifepath section from Mekton. Works like a charm.

For randomly generating 5e backgrounds? Because that's what we're talking about here.

Quote from: RPGPundit;653522For randomly generating 5e backgrounds? Because that's what we're talking about here.

I have been using it since it came out and have not found a game system that it does not work in yet after 25 years. It is pretty generic and robust.

I would add an addendum to Daddy Warpig's list:

2. Rules which need examples, should have them.  And the example should be correct!

I have spent many fruitless hours trying to fit examples, that turn out subsequently to be wrong, to the rules.

Quote from: Arry;653545I would add an addendum to Daddy Warpig's list:

2. Rules which need examples, should have them.  And the example should be correct!

I have spent many fruitless hours trying to fit examples, that turn out subsequently to be wrong, to the rules.

The older an RPG is the worse this gets.

There's things in the Mekton: MTS that drove me friggin' nuts back in the day - all because their math was wrong based on what they said it should have been.

Also: sample characters in Mechwarrior 2 (the pnp RPG) that made no sense in terms of characteristics cost.

I think, and this is just me, that AD&D, re-seen, could have an impact on a new audience even if the audience were old school. And I hope I am wrong. The commercialism of everything, the "canned" adventures, the lack of imagination on play.....WotC is not going to answer it. It is a cultural development. People have changed. OSR is wonderful. I have answered other posts like that with good reasons, yet how, can WotC, expect to affect the OSR when they themselves have not "lost" imagination? It was in moving away that WotC made the mistake. I will look at Next, but not buy.

I don't think the present cultural trends will go on forever. Or if you prefer, that the opposition to the current cultural trends will rather go on as well, as a cultural trend of its own, and gain momentum with time. Of course, we've already seen it in a number of instances, gaining momentum will mean that the entities attempting to control these trends and suck them dry of all the cash they can get will attempt to recuperate these trends going against them. The business of organic foods comes to mind, for example.

It's like what we're seeing with the OSR really: some people who have fuck all to do with vintage gaming and have been screaming about how the old games were badwrongfun and causing brain damage and all that are now trying to recuperate the phenomenon saying that "hey, the OSR was our brainchild all along!", then they write "love letters to D&D" and all that bullshit. To some extent, these people will be successful, in that they'll most likely reach their short term leeching goals, but there will always be a guy or gal out there who just loves the actual original game and will put his or her module online under the OGL down the years. Let the profiteers have their 15 minutes of fame. When the dust settles, they'll move on to greener pastures, and the people who actually love the games will still be there.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;653555The older an RPG is the worse this gets.

There's things in the Mekton: MTS that drove me friggin' nuts back in the day - all because their math was wrong based on what they said it should have been.

Also: sample characters in Mechwarrior 2 (the pnp RPG) that made no sense in terms of characteristics cost.

Pregen characters are often like that. It says a bit about the game if people who made it make characters that are often nigh completely mechanically inept.