How do you roleplay? (Forked from Narrative thread)

[Justin Alexander]

holy hell dude if you really need my referencing of your hyperbolic statement to be me responding to you by a direct quote.  By all means let it be so.

It's not so much a need. It's just what English words mean. But obviously you think you know better than the dictionary, too.

I don't run or play group improv style.

If the GM never bothered to determine, then the player gets to determine.

Case in point.

"I don't play group improv style, I just play the style where the group improvs."

Yeah let's look, it's not like I haven't posted enough times, yet you still seem to be not reading what is there.
This is why I dislike "If the GM never bothered to determine, then there's nothing wrong with the player's implicit suggestion. GM's call. Always."
I don't believe that anymore. Hanging around here helped me reach that conclusion.
Have you not noticed the underlined words? GM's call. Always.
You do understand the definition of always?

Now that we understand that you aren't actually using English words or syntax in accordance with their common meaning or practice, I think we can finally untangle what you mean:

What Sommerjon is saying is that it's always the GM's call whether or not he's going to make a call, which means it is not always the GM's call.

And if that makes your brain hurt, that's OK. That's because you're a rational person who exists in a Euclidean world. Sommerjon is posting from Rl'yeh with a mind reflected back upon itself. (If it helps, you just need to realize that the "GM's call" in the first half of the sentence is not referring to the same thing as the "GM's call" in the second half of the sentence. However, the second "GM's call" is referring to the same call as the "call" just before the comma.)

[Justin Alexander]

Just popping in to say: isn't the original Traveller character generation system pretty close to 100% associated?

Traveller is why I say that character creation is only ALMOST always dissociated. Similarly, RQ-style skill improvement is an example of associated character advancement.

They do crop up. They're just exceptionally rare.

[Bren]

Yeah let's look, it's not like I haven't posted enough times, yet you still seem to be not reading what is there.

I don’t know how else to tell you this Sommerjon. What you wrote is unclear.

Here is you.

I have quoted what I was talking about every time "If the GM never bothered to determine, then there's nothing wrong with the player's implicit suggestion. GM's call. Always."

You say that it is the “GM’s call. Always.” Is that what you meant? Well it’s what you said here, so maybe. Except earlier you said something different.
 

This is why I dislike "If the GM never bothered to determine, then there's nothing wrong with the player's implicit suggestion. GM's call. Always."
I don't believe that anymore. Hanging around here helped me reach that conclusion.

So now you dislike the statement you quoted in another place without disagreement. But what is it you dislike? And what is it you disagree with? You use the pronoun “that” but it isn’t at all clear what noun "that" is supposed to refer to. The first sentence? The second sentence? Both sentences?

   1) Do you dislike “If the GM never bothered to determine, then there's nothing wrong with the player's implicit suggestion.”?
2) Do you disagree that “If the GM never bothered to determine, then there's nothing wrong with the player's implicit suggestion.”?
3) Do you dislike “GM's call. Always."?
4) Do you disagree with “GM's call. Always."?
5) Maybe it’s a bit of both. Do you dislike “If the GM never bothered to determine, then there's nothing wrong with the player's implicit suggestion,” and you disagree with “GM's call. Always."?

I’m not the only one who has asked you to clarify what you wrote because it was unclear.

This is why I dislike "If the GM never bothered to determine, then there's nothing wrong with the player's implicit suggestion. GM's call. Always."
I don't believe that anymore. Hanging around here helped me reach that conclusion.

What is the 'that' you don't believe? Or, going the other way, which is it you do believe? That it IS, or that it is NOT, the GM's call?

Why not answer Phillip’s question if you can’t or won’t answer mine?

Just state your preference clearly and positively. Just answer the question.

Does the GM’s call always trump the player’s invention in a setting or doesn’t it?

I'm saying why, you keep giving how.

Yes I know you keep telling me why I play with the rules I use.

Doing so is arrogant, patronizing, and stupid. And you are wrong about why. I told you why I play with the rules I use. You just refuse to accept the answer. Do you think you are Kresge the amazing Internet Mind Reader?

The why is really very, very simple. A setting created by the GM and curated by the GM is more fun for me as a player. So that’s how I play and run RPGs.

Case in point, when I was first taught how to play monopoly I was taught you had to go around the board one time before you start buying properties.  I enjoyed playing that way, I always played that way, I never knew any different until another couple pointed out that there was no rule for that in the game.

It is not a big surprise to me that you learned some wacky version of a game by not reading the rules. Many people have done that. Unlike you, I learned to play the game by reading the rules. I did not learn the game by being taught by some moron who didn’t read and understand the rules. And that holds true for both Monopoly and for RPGs.

[Bren]

They do crop up. They're just exceptionally rare.

I wouldn't call Traveller, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, and the other BRP offshoots exceptionally rare.

[Exploderwizard]

I call it what it is roleplaying.

When you create setting elements on the fly what role are you playing?

Hint: unless your character has these powers in the game world that role isn't an inhabitant of a fictional world.

The role in this case is one of co-storyteller. There are quite a few games designed to work like this.

[Gronan of Simmerya]

:popcorn:

[Bedrockbrendan]

I wouldn't call Traveller, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, and the other BRP offshoots exceptionally rare.

I tend to agree with you, but it also may be that we are just old and out of touch with what younger players are doing. I have to admit it has been getting harder and harder to recruit people for CoC (whereas in the 90s and even early 00s we used to run one-shots at least once a month or so). I still know some die-hard traveller players.

[Bren]

I tend to agree with you, but it also may be that we are just old and out of touch with what younger players are doing. I have to admit it has been getting harder and harder to recruit people for CoC (whereas in the 90s and even early 00s we used to run one-shots at least once a month or so). I still know some die-hard traveller players.

Not old. Older.

[Skarg]

...
And if that makes your brain hurt, that's OK. That's because you're a rational person who exists in a Euclidean world. Sommerjon is posting from Rl'yeh with a mind reflected back upon itself. (If it helps, you just need to realize that the "GM's call" in the first half of the sentence is not referring to the same thing as the "GM's call" in the second half of the sentence. However, the second "GM's call" is referring to the same call as the "call" just before the comma.)

LOL! OMG you just made me cry with laughter in public! ... So, how does these calls relate to the "call of Cthulu"?

[JoeNuttall]

Traveller is why I say that character creation is only ALMOST always dissociated. Similarly, RQ-style skill improvement is an example of associated character advancement.
They do crop up. They're just exceptionally rare.

Actually you said character creation never does, not that it's extremely rare ;-)
 

Character creation never features associated mechanics and character advancement rarely does,

Actually, I don't see that OD&D character creation (3d6 roll in order, choose a class) is dissociated either!

I have noticed that some games have options during character advancement that make no sense to the character and are just numbers on a character sheet, which is something I'd like to avoid.

[Opaopajr]

Sommerjon's just happy he's got a live one on the line as it makes him feel vicariously relevant.

Or in SJWese: he's role'splaining from his position of dominant paradigm privilege and gaslightin' you to make himself out to be the victim.

Have fun you guys!

[Gronan of Simmerya]

Or in SJWese: he's role'splaining from his position of dominant paradigm privilege and gaslightin' you to make himself out to be the victim.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[chirine ba kal]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Well, I started at the beginning and gotten to here. Color me baffled; I'll be in my crypt, if you need me. Knock on the coffin's lid three times, and have the digestive biscuits ready. MacVitte and Price, if at all possible. And hot cocoa, please.

I genuinely am not following what's happening here. I mean, I'm fascinated, but this is all quite outside my RPG-playing experience.

[Ravenswing]

Well, I started at the beginning and gotten to here. Color me baffled; I'll be in my crypt, if you need me. Knock on the coffin's lid three times, and have the digestive biscuits ready. MacVitte and Price, if at all possible. And hot cocoa, please.

Absolutely possible; the local supermarket has a section for Irish expats that includes them.

Me, I think I want to borrow some of that popcorn, only not to eat, to throw.

[Justin Alexander]

I wouldn't call Traveller, Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, and the other BRP offshoots exceptionally rare.

Sure. But you've just named a grand total of two systems, only one of which features both associated character creation and associated character advancement. (BRP has character advancement which is mostly associated, but still has dissociated character creation.)

These aren't the only examples of the same, but I don't think anyone can credibly say that out of the thousands of RPGs which have been created in the past 40 years that associated character creation and character advancement are anything other than extremely rare.

Actually, I don't see that OD&D character creation (3d6 roll in order, choose a class) is dissociated either!

You pick your race.

Actually you said character creation never does, not that it's extremely rare ;-)

You're right. I got sloppy with my phrasing there. Usually I add "except for Traveller" when I write that, but did not in this case.

(Other than Traveller I'm honestly unfamiliar with any RPG that features totally associated character creation. Although I would love to hear about some.)