Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 09:42:04 AM
Boomers fucked up Millennials with all that helicopter parenting and participation trophies

Technically, it was the GenX who fucked up the GenZ (or iGen). Having said that, yes, helicopter parenting is part of the problem, as kids are unable to live in the real world and learn about it during the learning age. Once they go out - in college for example - they are unprepared and scared of everything.

Of course laws forced helicopter parenting. I do not have kids myself but it was pretty amazing to me when my friends started to have them to learn about the astounding array of laws they had to follow. Now some US states are putting out "free-range parenting laws", which basically say "Remember how you grew up? Your kids are allowed to do the same without fear of being arrested." Amazing.

These kids, BTW, were forced to go on social media, learn about "life" there and... 'nuff said. That there is an "epidemic of mental health problems" in today's youth is recognised by everybody - and nobody knows how to fix it. "Official documents" about if torture and other stuff are allowed at your table are the product of this situation, not 9/11 or Pearl Harbor.

Quote from: Reckall on August 03, 2022, 10:51:36 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 09:42:04 AM
Boomers fucked up Millennials with all that helicopter parenting and participation trophies

Technically, it was the GenX who fucked up the GenZ (or iGen). Having said that, yes, helicopter parenting is part of the problem, as kids are unable to live in the real world and learn about it during the learning age. Once they go out - in college for example - they are unprepared and scared of everything.

Of course laws forced helicopter parenting. I do not have kids myself but it was pretty amazing to me when my friends started to have them to learn about the astounding array of laws they had to follow. Now some US states are putting out "free-range parenting laws", which basically say "Remember how you grew up? Your kids are allowed to do the same without fear of being arrested." Amazing.

These kids, BTW, were forced to go on social media, learn about "life" there and... 'nuff said. That there is an "epidemic of mental health problems" in today's youth is recognised by everybody - and nobody knows how to fix it. "Official documents" about if torture and other stuff are allowed at your table are the product of this situation, not 9/11 or Pearl Harbor.

I was talking about Millennials, who were the ones who got the initial brunt of the helicopter parenting & participation trophy craze. By the time GenZ came into the scene the initial groundwork and all these laws were already in place, and GenX themselves also got fucked up by the earlier Boomer generation, who basically abandoned us, with both parents at work, and made us raise ourselves with close to zero parental guidance for anything. So I wouldn't be surprised that GenXers suck at parenting given that we don't know what that looks like, and when we did get parenting it was mostly bad parenting IME.

Also disagree about 9/11. That event and the mess of a response that followed messed with the cultural psyche more than people will ever realize. I saw a massive cultural shift from then onward from the previously carefree and almost optimistic 90s—where almost every social battle other than gay marriage seemed to have been won and the future looked progressive (in the pre-woke era sense of the word) and free of bigotry—to one were liberty was seen as optional and an impediment to the essential "safety", and criticism of state authority was framed as a demoralizing slight against the troops.

That was the turning point that cemented the shift towards authoritarianism that began with the helicopter parent's attempts to curate every aspect of the younger generation's lives, as well as the initially failed, but persistent attempts to introduce political correctness in the 90s that began to gain strength in the 2010s, after people had already endured an era of post-9/11 authoritarianism and overvaluing of "safety". And it's that prioritization of "safely"—along with a past generation prevented from experiening hardship—that I think ultimately opened the door for political correctness and "words = violence" to sip in. Ultimately giving us "safety" tools to equip us with the tools necessary to handle the unbearable trauma of playing elf games without explicit social rules and contracts.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 02, 2022, 11:52:36 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on August 02, 2022, 07:22:10 PM
My campaigns always have an explicit social contract with a "stoplight" content warning system.

This includes:

• A general movie rating.
• A Whitelist for content I, the GM, need for the campaign's story to proceed.
• A Greenlist for content players marked as generally acceptable on a safety questionnaire
• A Yellowlist for content players marked as permissible if and only if you have metagame approval from the other players. This typically includes inter-PC romance.
• A Redlist for content players marked as a safety consideration or just generally distasteful (I view them as fundamentally the same.) Redlist content is banned.

Depending on the campaign, explicit sex and torture can either be on the Yellowlist or on the Redlist. If you're being an edgelord and know it (and I have been in those groups) I suppose you can greenlist it. 0/ 10. Do not recommend.

Full disclosure, this approach is derived from Monte Cook Gaming's "Consent in Gaming." Yes, indeed; he is on the Red for the Woke-index for this exact product, but I do think there are salvageable ideas in it. I hate safety terminology with a firey passion, too, as it makes it sound like roleplaying risks allowing sexual assault. I don't view safety tools as being there for safety; they're there to keep the group on the same page about what kind of campaign they're creating, and that means drawing lines on what is acceptable content, what isn't, what can be if you follow due metagame process, and really all this stuff should be written down. The Consent in Gaming questionnaire (with some adjustments) is perfect for that. It's not safety; it's preventing someone ruin the bloody campaign, and to a less extent it's not being an ass and accidentally or deliberately fingering someone with a phobia (I've seen both.) I would much prefer to call these "content guidelines," and in my own work I do. But for better or for worse, the industry decided these tools will be called, "safety tools."


Yay.


Regardless, after implementing stoplight social contracts, I have basically not had an issue with players randomly asking to torture an NPC when that's obviously inappropriate for the tone of the campaign.

Your players must be absolutely horrible people, if you need such tools for them.  I've been gaming for over forty years now, both in a home game that still has four of the original players, and in public gaming groups (including PFS and LG).  I have had exactly one session where a problem player took the game in an uncomfortable direction.  The GM told him to knock it off and he wasn't invited back.  All of this without ever using safety tools or a written set of guidelines or "trigger words."  I treat stories about these kinds of terrible gamers who need to be protected against the same way I treat stories of gaming groups that were "unwelcoming" to women or minorities: the people who relate these stories always seem to have another agenda that is being served.  And, in this case, they always seem to either be attention-whoring snowflakes or people who want to gatekeep out other people they don't like (all while decrying gatekeeping and demanding safety tools as a remedy).

Greetings!

Strange, isn't it, how they always seem to have another agenda?

These kinds of smarmy, smug, self-righteous people make me sick. They are disgusting, and corrosive to our entire hobby.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 12:14:26 PM

Quote from: Reckall on August 03, 2022, 10:51:36 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 09:42:04 AM
Boomers fucked up Millennials with all that helicopter parenting and participation trophies

Technically, it was the GenX who fucked up the GenZ (or iGen). Having said that, yes, helicopter parenting is part of the problem, as kids are unable to live in the real world and learn about it during the learning age. Once they go out - in college for example - they are unprepared and scared of everything.

Of course laws forced helicopter parenting. I do not have kids myself but it was pretty amazing to me when my friends started to have them to learn about the astounding array of laws they had to follow. Now some US states are putting out "free-range parenting laws", which basically say "Remember how you grew up? Your kids are allowed to do the same without fear of being arrested." Amazing.

These kids, BTW, were forced to go on social media, learn about "life" there and... 'nuff said. That there is an "epidemic of mental health problems" in today's youth is recognised by everybody - and nobody knows how to fix it. "Official documents" about if torture and other stuff are allowed at your table are the product of this situation, not 9/11 or Pearl Harbor.

I was talking about Millennials, who were the ones who got the initial brunt of the helicopter parenting & participation trophy craze. By the time GenZ came into the scene the initial groundwork and all these laws were already in place, and GenX themselves also got fucked up by the earlier Boomer generation, who basically abandoned us, with both parents at work, and made us raise ourselves with close to zero parental guidance for anything. So I wouldn't be surprised that GenXers suck at parenting given that we don't know what that looks like, and when we did get parenting it was mostly bad parenting IME.

Also disagree about 9/11. That event and the mess of a response that followed messed with the cultural psyche more than people will ever realize. I saw a massive cultural shift from then onward from the previously carefree and almost optimistic 90s—where almost every social battle other than gay marriage seemed to have been won and the future looked progressive (in the pre-woke era sense of the word) and free of bigotry—to one were liberty was seen as optional and an impediment to the essential "safety", and criticism of state authority was framed as a demoralizing slight against the troops.

That was the turning point that cemented the shift towards authoritarianism that began with the helicopter parent's attempts to curate every aspect of the younger generation's lives, as well as the initially failed, but persistent attempts to introduce political correctness in the 90s that began to gain strength in the 2010s, after people had already endured an era of post-9/11 authoritarianism and overvaluing of "safety". And it's that prioritization of "safely"—along with a past generation prevented from experiening hardship—that I think ultimately opened the door for political correctness and "words = violence" to sip in. Ultimately giving us "safety" tools to equip us with the tools necessary to handle the unbearable trauma of playing elf games without explicit social rules and contracts.

Greetings!

Very sharp analysis there, my friend! I agree.

The whole "participation trophy"; "Safety!"; and "Helicopter Parenting" have totally fucked over an entire generation and more. These kinds of ideas and behaviors instilled in them at youth by idealistic, stupid, or absent parents--and lots of indulgent, single mommies--has crippled these young people for life. It is why so many of them are entirely non-functional as adults. It is why there are "Adulting 101" classes being offered in colleges, right now. It is why so many concepts, ideas, situations, and ways of being that everyone before this generation simply rolled with--send the current generation into trauma.

And no, it isn't just the "mean bastard Conservatives" that are noticing this, and critiquing these social and mental dynamics. Recently, a good number of articles I've read about the US Military Recruiting commands have plainly stated--"75% of young people from 18-24 years old are physically and psychologically unfit to serve in the US military." Yeah, 75%. That means that only 25% within that age group are even decent potential recruits. The military officers involved have described these dynamics as a serious and ongoing recruiting crisis that is not going away--but is more than likely to continue, and become worse.

We see the deep effects of this lack of parenting, lack of social skills, absence of problem solving, enormous attitudes of childish entitlement, deep-seated fears and a trainwreck of all kinds of mental illnesses and emotional and mental dysfunction throughout the gaming hobby. It used to be that encountering such people was decidedly a minority--now they are increasingly the majority of gamers. Or at least representing a huge increase in numbers encountered.

These fallout social and moral effects--resulting from the total failure of a whole generation of parents--has huge and disastrous effects for our culture--but we have seen the enormous effects even on our gaming hobby.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 09:42:04 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 03, 2022, 09:18:28 AM
Besides, it's completely unreasonable to expect people to know what they want and don't want before the game is underway. There's no way in hell I would waste 2 hours of my life watching a movie about dog shows, but I enjoyed Best in Show. Contradiction!

Pretty much, there's been plenty of times I've watched films I normally wouldn't watch just cuz I used to go to the movies a lot with my mom in my teens and I ended up liking or appreciating for what they were.

Quote
Lists of allowed/disallowed content stifle the game. There is no way in hell I would want torture in the game, but maybe a situation will arise where I would be perfectly fine with torture coming up. How the fuck do I know at the start of the game? Hello emergent narrative! (And if it turns out I don't want it, I speak up when it comes up.)

Yeah, torture is normally not my thing and the times it has come in my games it's usually being edgy players RPing stupid evil characters (who later faced stupid evil consequences), but I wouldn't be against some of the character driven, dramatic stuff that SHARK described for his own games. Sometimes torture can make narrative sense and enhance the game experience if done appropriately. But how are we gonna find out if we mark it off as "red" in a vacuum with no context before play even starts?

Quote
Maybe you are correct and it is a generational thing. We used to channel surf and occasionally find cool shows we never knew existed. We used to go to movies blind just because our friends were going. These days people curate everything and if something bothers them they cut it off. Don't like someone? Ghost them. You couldn't do that before. You had to answer the fucking phone and talk to the person. You know, like a normal socialized person.

Boomers fucked up Millennials with all that helicopter parenting and participation trophies, then 9/11 fucked them up the rest of the way by creating a culture that valued "safety" over liberty and held official authority as sacrosanct. Now we need an official authoritative document on what content is allowed before a game starts.

Greetings!

Yes, indeed, while combat in my games are routinely graphic, bloody, and brutal--actual episodes of full-set torture is honestly fairly rare. It isn't like torture comes up every week or something. Though, when it does present itself, as I mentioned, whether the Players are being tortured, or in the position of torturing a villain--I always seek to get the most drama, catharsis, and character-driven dynamics out of such episodes. Without exception, such episodes in my experience have been emotionally meaningful, plot-and-drama relevant, and satisfying to everyone involved.

And yes, the whole "official documents" thing I find horrifying and deeply offensive. Not just to myself personally, but I can't imagine even presenting such documents to my players. They would crucify me for certain. The mockery, the derision, the laughter, the absolute dumbfounded "What the fuck is this, SHARK?" would embarrass and shame me into oblivion. No. I would never present such documents to my players and I never will. Even thinking about it feels insulting, shameful, and condescending, like I am treating them all like clueless 12 year old children.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 09:22:04 AM
I find it baffling that people feel the need to fill out an explicit written contract just to play a game. It's excessively legalistic and micro managing. And it also opens up the door for people to start thinking up minor pet peeves and hang ups that are silly and wouldn't have come up otherwise, and forcing their personal bugbears on the rest of the group.

Used to be you just... you know... TALKED to players and got a feel for what was ok and what was not.

Problem is. Some DMs did no such thing and dropped stuff on players that really the fuck should have been discussed beforehand. Then the woke and the storygamer cultists parade this around as "proof" that DMs are horrible and must be shackled and chained down.

This whole X-card craze is just another offshoot of the storygamer cults attempts to dominate and subvert.

Quote from: Omega on August 03, 2022, 02:45:57 PM
Problem is. Some DMs did no such thing and dropped stuff on players that really the fuck should have been discussed beforehand. Then the woke and the storygamer cultists parade this around as "proof" that DMs are horrible and must be shackled and chained down.

I agree, and further how common is this anyway?

In my view, RPG Horror Stories are:

30% fiction
30% a skewed one-sided story
30% blown out of proportion or speculation
10% real, so yeah, talk to the group about it instead of posting on the internet about it

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 03, 2022, 02:57:50 PM
I agree, and further how common is this anyway?

In my view, RPG Horror Stories are:

30% fiction
30% a skewed one-sided story
30% blown out of proportion or speculation
10% real, so yeah, talk to the group about it instead of posting on the internet about it

It wouldn't surprise me if it is more common now than it was then.  I'm not saying it is, as I have no way to know, but it wouldn't surprise me. 

The real problems usually had one common denominator--teenage boys involved.  And probably more in the 13-15 age range than later. If anyone was going to go overboard on the torture graphics (or anything else), it was one of them. Sure, there's always been people that stay stuck in that development range long after it should be embarrassing.  Likewise, people that can't seem to adjust their filters and vocalization based on the ideas that, "hey, what was OK when everyone at the table was male and 14 is maybe not OK in this other situation."  Me, I always told the teens to assume that their grandmother could walk through the door at any moment.  If they were OK with that, they could say it or do it.  Mainly because I didn't want to hear it, but I figured if their grandmother could tolerate it, I'd take one for the team.

Since so many "moderns" are perpetually stuck in early adolescence, and their biggest cheerleaders celebrate this deficiency instead of being embarrassed by it, it wouldn't be shocking if we had more of it.

I absolutely think that most of that ilk probably do need written contracts to play, because they've never grown up, and don't intend to do so.  Me, I'd rather play with a group of 13-15 year old males.  At least then something might be salvageable from the situation after a few years, especially if their characters weren't shielded from the consequences.

Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 10:52:39 AM
On a number of occasions my PCs have a captured an NPC and wanted to torture them to get information. I had been handling it as a hard-no, your PC is now evil, and (in my game) evil PCs become my NPCs. But having thought about it, perhaps there is some middle road between no-torture and gristly RP of torture. Thoughts on the topic are appreciated.

(Answered before reading all responses. Apologies if I repeat something already said.)

I think it depends on the type of torture.
Inducing pain or cutting off fingers? Definitely, 100% evil.
Sleep deprivation or psychological torture? Eh, that might be a bit more grey.

It also depends on the type of setting. Are the characters supposed to be epic heroes in a high fantasy? Then they shouldn't think they can torture anyone (even the worst villians) without facing serious repercussions. Are they a squad of soldiers in a gritty war setting? Well, then... torture might not be "officially" sanctioned, but whatever wins the war, right?

It's also important to recognize the manner with which the topic is being played. Is the player just trying to be an edgelord (probably more likely to be seen at a convention or public game than at a home table)? Then shut that down, because the player is only going to try to take it as far as they can. But if the player is using discretion and is interested only in advancing the story/drama, then maybe let it play out to it's natural conclusion.

Quote from: Effete on August 03, 2022, 09:06:35 PM
Inducing pain or cutting off fingers? Definitely, 100% evil.

So, in the series Band of Brothers, there's a scene toward the end where a drunken US replacement had shot one of the main group who had survived since D-day and who had tried to stop the drunk during a rampage where he shot a few other allied soldiers. While others took the shot guy to a medic, others in the group took the drunk to a house, tied him to a chair, and beat the shit out of him. That qualifies as torture. But was it evil? No.

Is inducing pain to a subdued person torture? Sure. Is it evil, not always.

I don't......

...ever .....or try my best not to.

One of most loyal players -  I know that was tortured when she was younger.
Such scenes or moments I try to avoid.

- Ed C.

Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 10:52:39 AM
How do you handle torture in your game?

I don't.

Quote from: rytrasmi on August 03, 2022, 09:51:00 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 03, 2022, 09:06:35 PM
Inducing pain or cutting off fingers? Definitely, 100% evil.

So, in the series Band of Brothers, there's a scene toward the end where a drunken US replacement had shot one of the main group who had survived since D-day and who had tried to stop the drunk during a rampage where he shot a few other allied soldiers. While others took the shot guy to a medic, others in the group took the drunk to a house, tied him to a chair, and beat the shit out of him. That qualifies as torture. But was it evil? No.

Is inducing pain to a subdued person torture? Sure. Is it evil, not always.

You're right.
I spoke a bit too hastily it seems. My larger point was that context matters.

Greetings!

In my miniature collection, I have a whole set of dungeon and torture chamber furniture, items, and accessories. Suspended slave cages, stages for naked slaves to be examined, bought and sold, as well as torture tables, wracks, iron maidens, all kinds of items. Then, of course, there are several mad scientists and "Good Doctors", as well as Hooded Torturers and jail guards. Various slaves and prisoners, some tied up, bound in shackles, or otherwise huddled about crying and trembling in fear. Definitely adds many details and features to dungeon scenes that the Players may encounter.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on August 06, 2022, 02:53:52 PM
Greetings!

In my miniature collection, I have a whole set of dungeon and torture chamber furniture, items, and accessories. Suspended slave cages, stages for naked slaves to be examined, bought and sold, as well as torture tables, wracks, iron maidens, all kinds of items. Then, of course, there are several mad scientists and "Good Doctors", as well as Hooded Torturers and jail guards. Various slaves and prisoners, some tied up, bound in shackles, or otherwise huddled about crying and trembling in fear. Definitely adds many details and features to dungeon scenes that the Players may encounter.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

How do you use them though?

I'm assuming that you have them as the bad guys which the players must defeat and the torture victims or slaves are there to be rescued. The OP seemed more concerned with what happens when the Player Characters are the torturers in your games.