Quote from: Omega on August 01, 2022, 10:59:40 AM
But at the end if the day if it makes you, the DM uncomfortable. Then just say "No." or "Fuck off and Die. No." as needed.

I think that's the key issue for all these moral factors in an RPG. If you don't like it as a GM or player then probably better just to give it a miss. At the end of the day just find the right group for your needs.

Greetings!

In my Thandor campaign, I have developed both an Interrogation Skill, and a Torture Skill. I also have a special Torture Events Table, where the prisoner being tortured has a chance at several different results. Some results are, The Will is Broken!: Break down and provide all known information to the interrogator; Endure the Torture; Endure the Torture and provide Babbling Nonsense; Tower of Iron Will: The character reaches a place of Iron Will, and resists all pain and efforts of interrogation, even unto death.

Torture Methods (Options within the Torture Skill)
Light Torture: The character suffers non-life threatening pain, suffering, and injuries. 50% chance of some light scarring. 25% chance per week of gaining some kind of psychosis, hatred, phobia, or special trait.

Severe Torture: Constitution Saving Throws Required; Life-threatening injuries, blood loss, and trauma. 90% Chance of substantial, permanent scarring or markings. 75% Chance of gaining some kind of psychosis, hatred, phobia, or special trait, per day of sustained torture. 10% Chance of Succumbing To The Dark Whispers--The Character develops 1D3 Dark Mutations. Skilled, professional Torturers can typically maintain Severe Torture and avoid killing the subject; however, Severe Torture always has a potential for sudden death. Characters that manage to survive Severe Torture are typically permanently scarred for life, and often also experience dramatic changes in their personality, worldview, habits or mannerisms. Significant change, whether dramatic or sometimes subtle, is virtually a certainty in most cases.

Interrogations and torture sessions are often episodes of enormous drama, plot development, and also character advancement, growth, and even change.

With such details provided, I have an adequate framework in which to deal with any episodes of the Player Characters becoming imprisoned and tortured--or when and if they themselves are in the position of power and control, and hold the fate of their captured enemies in their hands.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on August 01, 2022, 11:29:41 AM
Greetings!
Interrogations and torture sessions are often episodes of enormous drama, plot development, and also character advancement, growth, and even change.

With such details provided, I have an adequate framework in which to deal with any episodes of the Player Characters becoming imprisoned and tortured--or when and if they themselves are in the position of power and control, and hold the fate of their captured enemies in their hands.

This would be my attitude too.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 11:31:33 AM

Quote from: SHARK on August 01, 2022, 11:29:41 AM
Greetings!
Interrogations and torture sessions are often episodes of enormous drama, plot development, and also character advancement, growth, and even change.

With such details provided, I have an adequate framework in which to deal with any episodes of the Player Characters becoming imprisoned and tortured--or when and if they themselves are in the position of power and control, and hold the fate of their captured enemies in their hands.

This would be my attitude too.

Greetings!

Yes, I have had more than a few occasions where Player Characters have themselves crowed and bragged about how they were tortured by the Orcs, or the Dark Necromancer, or whatever, and managed to survive. Eagerly showing off their scars that mark their suffering and courage--while often also remaining quiet or reticent about disclosing the deeper emotional or psychological traits or traumas that their character now endures. Depending, of course. Some such details can be humorous, interesting, besides horrifying, of course. Strange habits, weird phobias, deep-seated hatreds which burst forth in dramatic ways at unexpected times. and more. The players love it.

I've also seen the Players get in touch with their bloodlust a well. Fuck with their lovers, family, kids, their friends. People they really liked or admired, or relied on. Yeah, their moral constraints rapidly go out the damned window. Even the women--who are customarily a bit more reserved and apprehensive about embracing such things as torture--when I have fucked with people or creatures that were precious to them, yeah, even the women have gotten very bloodthirsty. Personally, very dramatically. Pinchers, fire, hot tongs, fireball down the necromancer's throat. Whatever. In such episodes, there has typically been no remorse whatsoever, because I often play villains as very wicked and evil bastards. The players also typically recognize such episodes as being dramatically powerful and important, for many aspects. Plot development, secrets revealed, character rising to shine, all kinds of motivations and character development going on, as well as cathartic moments of justice and pure satisfaction.

Players also generally recognize that, except for such truly meaningful circumstances, engaging themselves in torture "Just for the fuck of it" isn't something they do, as all are aware of the costs and potential costs involved, to the conscience themselves at least, if not more obvious ramifications due to alignment, church membership, class, and so on. Most people are aware that embracing sadism as a practice is detrimental to a person's character and soul, and thus wisely avoid such, even apart from exterior consequences such that their deity, church, or community may desire or seek to impose upon such an individual.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 11:28:37 AM

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 11:11:57 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 07:07:52 AM

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.

Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.

That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).

I disagree on the basis that the PCs have fate points which mark them out as characters of metaphysical significance. Now it might not he immediate but it marks them out if and when they do encounter followers and avatars of various entities. And of course makes such encounters more likely.

Also with the Chaos gods I wasn't really talking about divine retribution but divine reward. E.g."Good job exemplifying my aspect by mutilating that captured prisoner and enjoying it. Have a tentacle on the house...."

The players have fate purely for a preservation mechanic that is loosely explained by them being 'marked' as being slightly better than the average mortal. Given the wound rate, it's badly needed.

Maybe I should have used the term 'divine intervention'. It does not happen like that in WFRP. Yeah for an NPC who's been dabbling in magic or deliberately cavorting with a chaos entity, sure. But to gain the favor of chaos you'd really want to be killing people en masse and in a sadistic fashion. Or at least sacrificing the odd human here and there and dedicating it to an entity.


It would be far more likely that you'd gain the favor or interest of a chaos cult.

This is incorrect. 1st and 2nd edition WFRP explicitly note that Fate represent the characters being marked by the gods and having a wider destiny. 4th edition says they represent luck, guts, the gods or destiny.

This isn't just descriptive either. In Empire in Flames refusing the call to adventure will remove the PCs fate points.

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 12:17:44 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 11:28:37 AM

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 11:11:57 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 07:07:52 AM

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.

Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.

That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).

I disagree on the basis that the PCs have fate points which mark them out as characters of metaphysical significance. Now it might not he immediate but it marks them out if and when they do encounter followers and avatars of various entities. And of course makes such encounters more likely.

Also with the Chaos gods I wasn't really talking about divine retribution but divine reward. E.g."Good job exemplifying my aspect by mutilating that captured prisoner and enjoying it. Have a tentacle on the house...."

The players have fate purely for a preservation mechanic that is loosely explained by them being 'marked' as being slightly better than the average mortal. Given the wound rate, it's badly needed.

Maybe I should have used the term 'divine intervention'. It does not happen like that in WFRP. Yeah for an NPC who's been dabbling in magic or deliberately cavorting with a chaos entity, sure. But to gain the favor of chaos you'd really want to be killing people en masse and in a sadistic fashion. Or at least sacrificing the odd human here and there and dedicating it to an entity.


It would be far more likely that you'd gain the favor or interest of a chaos cult.

This is incorrect. 1st and 2nd edition WFRP explicitly note that Fate represent the characters being marked by the gods and having a wider destiny. 4th edition says they represent luck, guts the gods or destiny.

This isn't just descriptive either. In Empire in Flames refusing the call to adventure will remove the PCs fate points.

But you still won't get 'divine intervention' in the way you said you would.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 12:19:26 PM

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 12:17:44 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 11:28:37 AM

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 11:11:57 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 07:07:52 AM

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.

Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.

That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).

I disagree on the basis that the PCs have fate points which mark them out as characters of metaphysical significance. Now it might not he immediate but it marks them out if and when they do encounter followers and avatars of various entities. And of course makes such encounters more likely.

Also with the Chaos gods I wasn't really talking about divine retribution but divine reward. E.g."Good job exemplifying my aspect by mutilating that captured prisoner and enjoying it. Have a tentacle on the house...."

The players have fate purely for a preservation mechanic that is loosely explained by them being 'marked' as being slightly better than the average mortal. Given the wound rate, it's badly needed.

Maybe I should have used the term 'divine intervention'. It does not happen like that in WFRP. Yeah for an NPC who's been dabbling in magic or deliberately cavorting with a chaos entity, sure. But to gain the favor of chaos you'd really want to be killing people en masse and in a sadistic fashion. Or at least sacrificing the odd human here and there and dedicating it to an entity.


It would be far more likely that you'd gain the favor or interest of a chaos cult.

This is incorrect. 1st and 2nd edition WFRP explicitly note that Fate represent the characters being marked by the gods and having a wider destiny. 4th edition says they represent luck, guts the gods or destiny.

This isn't just descriptive either. In Empire in Flames refusing the call to adventure will remove the PCs fate points.

But you still won't get 'divine intervention' in the way you said you would.

Well that's just an opinion. Which is fair enough. But its not like spontaneous mutantion or divine intervention is particularly uncommon in the Old World.

Quote from: SHARK on August 01, 2022, 12:01:21 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 11:31:33 AM

Quote from: SHARK on August 01, 2022, 11:29:41 AM
Greetings!
Interrogations and torture sessions are often episodes of enormous drama, plot development, and also character advancement, growth, and even change.

With such details provided, I have an adequate framework in which to deal with any episodes of the Player Characters becoming imprisoned and tortured--or when and if they themselves are in the position of power and control, and hold the fate of their captured enemies in their hands.

This would be my attitude too.

Greetings!

Yes, I have had more than a few occasions where Player Characters have themselves crowed and bragged about how they were tortured by the Orcs, or the Dark Necromancer, or whatever, and managed to survive. Eagerly showing off their scars that mark their suffering and courage--while often also remaining quiet or reticent about disclosing the deeper emotional or psychological traits or traumas that their character now endures. Depending, of course. Some such details can be humorous, interesting, besides horrifying, of course. Strange habits, weird phobias, deep-seated hatreds which burst forth in dramatic ways at unexpected times. and more. The players love it.

I've also seen the Players get in touch with their bloodlust a well. Fuck with their lovers, family, kids, their friends. People they really liked or admired, or relied on. Yeah, their moral constraints rapidly go out the damned window. Even the women--who are customarily a bit more reserved and apprehensive about embracing such things as torture--when I have fucked with people or creatures that were precious to them, yeah, even the women have gotten very bloodthirsty. Personally, very dramatically. Pinchers, fire, hot tongs, fireball down the necromancer's throat. Whatever. In such episodes, there has typically been no remorse whatsoever, because I often play villains as very wicked and evil bastards. The players also typically recognize such episodes as being dramatically powerful and important, for many aspects. Plot development, secrets revealed, character rising to shine, all kinds of motivations and character development going on, as well as cathartic moments of justice and pure satisfaction.

Players also generally recognize that, except for such truly meaningful circumstances, engaging themselves in torture "Just for the fuck of it" isn't something they do, as all are aware of the costs and potential costs involved, to the conscience themselves at least, if not more obvious ramifications due to alignment, church membership, class, and so on. Most people are aware that embracing sadism as a practice is detrimental to a person's character and soul, and thus wisely avoid such, even apart from exterior consequences such that their deity, church, or community may desire or seek to impose upon such an individual.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Again you've hit the nail on the head here as far as I'm concerned.

I've seen players lose their shit on behalf of their character in order to get revenge for some past wrongdoing and they will go to any lengths if severe enough. But they always have a reason. I mean, you can't put a price on that player drama and character investment. I like to make my evil-doers right bastards because it often bring out those golden player moments.

I have no problem with torturing PCs as well.

And I totally agree with you again - Just being 'evil' for the sake of it is pointless and childish. Now, if a PC wants to go the evil route I certainly won't stop them. However, Karma will be coming for you. The PCs are always free to do what they want but the world is a 'living place' and every action will have a reaction.

I've certainly seen some very nasty play from women when they play Vampire, very nasty indeed!

Torture happens in my games. It can get dark, but we are aware of it and try not to take it too seriously. Nobody is sadistically enjoying it as far as I can tell. We don't shy away from historical accuracy in our games, and torture was very common in the middle ages. Like others have said, torture is a useful plot point and motivator for things like revenge. And use of torture absolutely has consequences.

In one session, the PCs were interrogating a captured NPC and there was some "motivating violence." They got the information they asked for (and it was true), but they didn't believe it because "he probably said that to get us to stop." Pause. Lightbulb turns on. We all got a visceral experience of that lesson without hurting a real person. This is one of the great things about RPGs!

Our group usually plays some edition or variant of D&D and we use the Sense Motive skill to determine the effectiveness of torture. Almost anybody will talk under torture, but they might lie, do the way to get the right information is to be able to detect if the victim lies - which is sense motive.

We don't have any kind of punishments for PCs using torture unless it's a paladin, cleric, or some other class that has some moral or behavioral standards.

My thoughts on torture in games:

If it has to happen on-screen abstract it out to a contest of whatever skill torture falls under versus Self-Control. Don't roleplay it, as any roleplay rude enough to break the NPC is likely to make players uncomfortable as well. It's also kind of rude to your hosts.

Note, though, that like Certain Death or other perils, the threat of torture can be every bit as persuasive as actual torture.

Coming up with a clever plan to psyche the person out should also be encouraged, as it typically makes for better roleplaying. And also because in general, players making plans are invested in the game, and their plans should generally at least help, even if they don't completely succeed.

It doesn't come up often. My adult peers running PCs tend to try and bribe or psychologically trick prisoners into giving away vital information. More of trying to do something more interesting than any distaste for inflicting body horror. This lets the threat of torture be a tool of those who would get their hands on them, something the enemy would do to you. Hopefully this adds some theatric dread to the PCs enemies.

My players used to torture captured Npcs back when we played Kult (so it's not like it was out of characters for the PCs, what with their negative mental balance).

But after they got what they wanted they just executed their victims (can't leave witnesses I guess) whcih I thought wasn't fair.

So next time I just had the victim die of a heart attack as they started the torture.

Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM
In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.

Quote from: Reckall on August 01, 2022, 04:57:00 AM
I never had the PCs torture someone in any game/system I ran, ever - and this across all the player groups I GMed for. Even when they pulled some "extraordinary rendition" (which made for exciting sessions) they already had in place systems to find the truth without resorting to torture. I liked how in the 3E era "The Book of Exalted Deeds" tackled the topic but I never had to look in it for suggestions, as the players came up with alternatives all by themselves.

I had a single instance when a NPC resorted to torture a "dear one" for another NPC to make her talk - with the players being forced to watch and unable to act. It made for a very dramatic moment, but it was the exception that confirmed the rule. For sure torture was implied many times in my campaigns ("The villagers that survived a goblin attack assured us that the prisoners will talk...") but always off-screen.

Lastly, never forget the real life lessons by Hanss Scharff. He was the master nazi interrogator and he never resorted to violence or torture. After the war he was even invited to the United States to teach his techniques to US interrogators.

There's no doubt Interrogation works better than Torture, the only problem is that Interrogation can take a long time.  Torture is also useless for anything that you can't verify without Torturing someone else.  Things like "Is X a Witch, Communist, Terrorist" etc.  For "where's the bomb?" torture might be more effective.