Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 31, 2022, 06:05:54 PM
And we wonder why the game got a dubious reputation ...

Well, it didn't... Not in the UK, here or in Europe (nothing significant anyway). It was the bible bashers over in the U.S. and A. Who hated it and thought of it as eeevil.

Torturing people in a game of make-believe means nothing. I mean, how many of us have battered things in GTA or some such violent video game? It's only ever going to be a problem if one of your players is 'off the rails' and isn't a normal human being.

Has anyone ever played a Tzimize in Vampire? Most of them tortured mortals just for fun (and it was done in graphic detail).

Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 05:53:19 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 05:40:05 PM

Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?

---

I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.

If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.

In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.

Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.

Perhaps... or maybe good/evil should not be codified into rules and left to the DM/GM/Judge adjudicate with respect to their particular game. As Rob Necronomicon pointed out, torturing a goblin and then selling it to a carnival is very WFRP. Hence in a WFRP game (or one in a similar vein) that would be the expected/"good" behavior. And maybe in your game Paladins of the Order of Righteousness are permitted (and even expected to) torture the un-righteous. 

Food for thought.

Not really. The only things that D&D 5E and WFRP have in common are that they are both fantasy RPGs. Other than that commonality, they are apples and oranges. I was under the impression that we were talking about D&D 5E, with all of its alignments, since that was the frame of reference used by the OP.

In games that allow evil alignments, my experience has been:

GM: Wait a minute. What's your alignment again?
Player: Neutral Evil
GM: Carry on

Otherwise, does it fit the tone of the game? Does the tone of the game fit the table? If yes, what is the content rating of the game, scene may be faded to black, narrated, or described in detail. What is the implication of this act within the setting, alignment shifts are possible and may, along with other consequences, render the character unplayable in the campaign. Warn of consequences before accepting and adjudicating the action. "Are you sure you want to do this? If you do, then..." Thereafter adjudicate the action within the game and table constraints.

I generally just don't go there unless the people I RP with I know really well and keep the whole torture thing kinda vague.
After saying that, in my teens, there was all sorts of stupid (in game only) stuff going on.  Much of which has already been discussed in this thread.

No. I don't wanna hear some player's juvenile jerk-off fantasies about how they'd torture a goblin prisoner.

If torture becomes germane to the game, I'll resolve it with a dice roll and move on, applying any consequences for alignment and scenario.

I never had the PCs torture someone in any game/system I ran, ever - and this across all the player groups I GMed for. Even when they pulled some "extraordinary rendition" (which made for exciting sessions) they already had in place systems to find the truth without resorting to torture. I liked how in the 3E era "The Book of Exalted Deeds" tackled the topic but I never had to look in it for suggestions, as the players came up with alternatives all by themselves.

I had a single instance when a NPC resorted to torture a "dear one" for another NPC to make her talk - with the players being forced to watch and unable to act. It made for a very dramatic moment, but it was the exception that confirmed the rule. For sure torture was implied many times in my campaigns ("The villagers that survived a goblin attack assured us that the prisoners will talk...") but always off-screen.

Lastly, never forget the real life lessons by Hanss Scharff. He was the master nazi interrogator and he never resorted to violence or torture. After the war he was even invited to the United States to teach his techniques to US interrogators.

The details of the torture are generally irrelevant, it would be resolved with a dice roll to avoid pointless gratuitous detail.

Likely a medical check would need to be made to avoid the victim dying before they can reveal anything useful.

Then an interrogation check to actually get useful information. More likely than not the information is faulty in some way.

Sanity roles are likely needed if the game supports that.

And then RP consequences depending on frequency and severity. For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 09:48:03 PM

Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 05:53:19 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 05:40:05 PM

Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?

---

I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.

If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.

In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.

Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.

Perhaps... or maybe good/evil should not be codified into rules and left to the DM/GM/Judge adjudicate with respect to their particular game. As Rob Necronomicon pointed out, torturing a goblin and then selling it to a carnival is very WFRP. Hence in a WFRP game (or one in a similar vein) that would be the expected/"good" behavior. And maybe in your game Paladins of the Order of Righteousness are permitted (and even expected to) torture the un-righteous. 

Food for thought.

Not really. The only things that D&D 5E and WFRP have in common are that they are both fantasy RPGs. Other than that commonality, they are apples and oranges. I was under the impression that we were talking about D&D 5E, with all of its alignments, since that was the frame of reference used by the OP.

Actually, I never said what system I was using for my game, as it didn't seem germane. But since the point has been raised, I run a DCC game, but without the law/chaos dichotomy. And except for differentiating between evil and not-evil (because I am not interested in running an "evil" campaign), I don't really use alignment.

Quote from: dkabq on August 01, 2022, 06:58:42 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 09:48:03 PM

Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 05:53:19 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 05:40:05 PM

Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?

---

I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.

If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.

In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.

Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.

Perhaps... or maybe good/evil should not be codified into rules and left to the DM/GM/Judge adjudicate with respect to their particular game. As Rob Necronomicon pointed out, torturing a goblin and then selling it to a carnival is very WFRP. Hence in a WFRP game (or one in a similar vein) that would be the expected/"good" behavior. And maybe in your game Paladins of the Order of Righteousness are permitted (and even expected to) torture the un-righteous. 

Food for thought.

Not really. The only things that D&D 5E and WFRP have in common are that they are both fantasy RPGs. Other than that commonality, they are apples and oranges. I was under the impression that we were talking about D&D 5E, with all of its alignments, since that was the frame of reference used by the OP.

Actually, I never said what system I was using for my game, as it didn't seem germane. But since the point has been raised, I run a DCC game, but without the law/chaos dichotomy. And except for differentiating between evil and not-evil (because I am not interested in running an "evil" campaign), I don't really use alignment.

Mea culpa.I stand corrected.

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.

Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.

That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 01, 2022, 07:02:04 AM

Quote from: dkabq on August 01, 2022, 06:58:42 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 09:48:03 PM

Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 05:53:19 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 05:40:05 PM

Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?

---

I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.

If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.

In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.

Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.

Perhaps... or maybe good/evil should not be codified into rules and left to the DM/GM/Judge adjudicate with respect to their particular game. As Rob Necronomicon pointed out, torturing a goblin and then selling it to a carnival is very WFRP. Hence in a WFRP game (or one in a similar vein) that would be the expected/"good" behavior. And maybe in your game Paladins of the Order of Righteousness are permitted (and even expected to) torture the un-righteous. 

Food for thought.

Not really. The only things that D&D 5E and WFRP have in common are that they are both fantasy RPGs. Other than that commonality, they are apples and oranges. I was under the impression that we were talking about D&D 5E, with all of its alignments, since that was the frame of reference used by the OP.

Actually, I never said what system I was using for my game, as it didn't seem germane. But since the point has been raised, I run a DCC game, but without the law/chaos dichotomy. And except for differentiating between evil and not-evil (because I am not interested in running an "evil" campaign), I don't really use alignment.

Mea culpa.I stand corrected.

No worries my dude. As D&D 5E is the 800-lb gorilla, it was a easy assumption to make. And you brought up some interesting points, which I appreciate.

I've got two broad bands for my fantastical games.  How it gets handled depends on which band it is in.

1. The "rough them up a little to see if they talk" thing.  This has to be in genre, not too graphic, and restrained.  It's usually more bluster than anything else, although there might be a punch to the stomach or a slap that leaves a bruise.  You know, the kind of things that happen to the hero when the non-sadistic bad guys have a temper and want the information, but don't really know how to get it. And of course, the characters in these stories can take that kind of abuse--because they are characters in those stories.  If it's what your WW2 era drill sergeant would do to you to bring you down a peg, but probably no long-term consequences, then it's OK.  (Important to note here that in this kind of genre, people rarely get concussions, CTE is not a thing, etc.  One punch to the head is not going to kill 99.99% of the population.)

2. Torture in genre.  It's fade to black, almost always done by one NPC to some other NPC, in the past.  That is, the characters find people that have been tortured, but it's not graphically conveyed.  On those rare occasions when I think a player is starting to go from Band 1 to Band 2, I've got a simple answer that I use for a lot of such questionable practices in game (not just torture).  I ask the players (all of them), "If the roles were reversed, and it was your character on the receiving end, would you be OK with this?"  Then I give them time to discuss it.  Usually, the answer is a pretty darn quick "No!".  And that's the end of it.  Because I've got a long-standing rule that whatever the players do in the game is established as valid procedure for the genre and the setting, such that they can expect it themselves later.

I find that players voluntarily locking the boundaries down as a group is far more effective at establishing the exact lines.  Of course, I'm not playing with a random crowd.  In the unlikely even that I had an all-teen group of males that weren't thinking very straight, I'd let them do what they want and then turn it back on them later the same adventure.  After explaining very clearly and bluntly GM to players that it would be the consequence.  If that lesson didn't take after a few tries, that would be the end of that group.  I don't mind the line moving a little for how rough things can get, but I do expect there to be a line.

Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 10:52:39 AM
On a number of occasions my PCs have a captured an NPC and wanted to torture them to get information. I had been handling it as a hard-no, your PC is now evil, and (in my game) evil PCs become my NPCs. But having thought about it, perhaps there is some middle road between no-torture and gristly RP of torture. Thoughts on the topic are appreciated.

Depends on the setting and that is or isnt allowed and what impact it has on the characters and those around them.

In one setting its going to be probably common. Warhammer being a big one there. World of Darkness being another. Both of these are very grim and brutal settings where horrific things are ever present.

Contrast that with say Call of Cthulhu where acts of torture are going to errode sanity of the one doing the act and anyone nearby. Ir D&D where such acts can and likely will cause alignment drifts into the negative when also can and likely will impact things.

Then you have settings in the middle of all this where it may happen. Its not considered a good thing at all. But sometimes it may be the last resort in a bad situation. Some superhero RPGs have that element and repercussions for doing so based on the situation and severity.

Low level torture can be things like threats, intimidation, fear tactics, a war of nerves. Rather than physycal harm. Nightmare inducing devices, powers, chemicals, or magic are another. Transformation can be another. Such as being turned into an animal or an inanimate, but aware statue. Sensory deprivation can have some unusual effects too.

And so on.

But at the end if the day if it makes you, the DM uncomfortable. Then just say "No." or "Fuck off and Die. No." as needed.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 07:07:52 AM

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.

Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.

That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).

I disagree on the basis that the PCs have fate points which mark them out as characters of metaphysical significance. Now it might not he immediate but it marks them out if and when they do encounter followers and avatars of various entities. And of course makes such encounters more likely.

Also with the Chaos gods I wasn't really talking about divine retribution but divine reward. E.g."Good job exemplifying my aspect by mutilating that captured prisoner and enjoying it. Have a tentacle on the house...."

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 11:11:57 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 07:07:52 AM

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.

Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.

That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).

I disagree on the basis that the PCs have fate points which mark them out as characters of metaphysical significance. Now it might not he immediate but it marks them out if and when they do encounter followers and avatars of various entities. And of course makes such encounters more likely.

Also with the Chaos gods I wasn't really talking about divine retribution but divine reward. E.g."Good job exemplifying my aspect by mutilating that captured prisoner and enjoying it. Have a tentacle on the house...."

The players have fate purely for a preservation mechanic that is loosely explained by them being 'marked' as being slightly better than the average mortal. Given the wound rate, it's badly needed.

Maybe I should have used the term 'divine intervention'. It does not happen like that in WFRP. Yeah for an NPC who's been dabbling in magic or deliberately cavorting with a chaos entity, sure. But to gain the favor of chaos you'd really want to be killing people en masse and in a sadistic fashion. Or at least sacrificing the odd human here and there and dedicating it to an entity.


It would be far more likely that you'd gain the favor or interest of a chaos cult.