On a number of occasions my PCs have a captured an NPC and wanted to torture them to get information. I had been handling it as a hard-no, your PC is now evil, and (in my game) evil PCs become my NPCs. But having thought about it, perhaps there is some middle road between no-torture and gristly RP of torture. Thoughts on the topic are appreciated.

Well, there's always the handy Interrogation skill in GURPS.  Okay roll, okay good.  I do like Traveller's uncertain tasks where the PCs don't always know for sure if they succeeded for things like this.

In a game where good and evil are these real things with magical powers, torture is simply evil and engaging in it will mean that no good clerical magic will work on the character until they atone for the crime and maybe not even then.  And let us bear in mind that evil clerics get Cause Light Wounds, not Cure Light Wounds.

In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 10:52:39 AM
On a number of occasions my PCs have a captured an NPC and wanted to torture them to get information. I had been handling it as a hard-no, your PC is now evil, and (in my game) evil PCs become my NPCs. But having thought about it, perhaps there is some middle road between no-torture and gristly RP of torture. Thoughts on the topic are appreciated.

Meh.

Show the players who want to torture the folly of their ways by making the subject of their torture session be a complete masochist who thinks that by suffering then they will reach Heaven. The torture subject will give false information in order to extend the torture session or increase the pain of the torture session. It is tough to threaten someone who digs being threatened.

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?

---

I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.

If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.

IIRC, "The Book of Exalted Deeds" for D&D 3.5E torture is considered an evil act, even if for the greater good. In a fantasy setting there are perfectly acceptable work-arounds, like "charm" or "compulsion" spells (you didn't specify what kind of campaign you are running). Truth serums and the like work the same in espionage settings. Demonstrations of holy power can enhance intimidation checks. Menace of torture without meaning it via a "bluff" check can work too (remember that the target can try to give fake answers via his own bluff roll...) Illusions and false identities are other solutions.

If your players really want to "do the deed" and you worry about graphic representations of torture (pulling out nails and the like), workarounds in a fantasy setting include putting a demon in a cell full of holy symbols (my favourite) and other hands-off methods of causing pain (like continual sounds banging in their ears). In a realistic setting, the "War on Terror" by many Western countries offers many examples of "No, this is not torture, honest!" methods of torture that don't involve pulling out nails (sleep deprivation, waterboarding, having the Jonas Brothers blasted in your ears for unending days...)

Always remember three things: torture is an evil act (it is up to you if "for a greater good" justifies it); it is always evil if there is a clear alternative to torture; torture is against the helpless.

Something done in battle isn't necessarily torture - even if done against a temporarily incapacitated person. It can still be an evil act, as, for example, attacking a helpless village with a band of knights is inherently evil; same if someone fires a fireball or a tactical nuke to kill some orcs knowing that innocent civilians are in the blast area (again, look at all the good acts in the real world that, alas!, sadly cause "collateral damage" for examples of this). BTW, evil acts done to make someone talk ("I killed your first son. If you don't talk I'll kill the second too", or "I'll torture your daughter until you don't talk) are already evil, so there is no debate here.

It was virtually part and parcel of nearly all old-school D&D games. Need info from the evil orc to rescue the prisoners? Start chopping his fingers off slowly with a rusty dagger.

That said I don't recollect anyone 'getting their rocks off'. Or go into excessive gory detail. It was just a means to an end, a way to obtain information quickly in order to find and tackle a greater evil.

The players were not evil in fact they were usually lawful they just wanted to win (by any means necessary). And they never saw it as an evil act either, as they were always torturing bad people.

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Brilliant... Now that's fucking WFRP at its finest! Selling the little freak afterward. That's genius!

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?

---

I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.

If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.

In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.

Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?

---

I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.

If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.

In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.

There is if you play with Rule Zero. And I play with Rule Zero. 

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?

---

I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.

If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.

I did frown upon it. I didn't want to be the spoilsport, but I did tell them that if they were going to be like that the whole game, there would be consequences. The healer was either a cleric or a paladin and I warned them things might happen.

Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?

---

I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.

If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.

In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.

Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.

Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 05:40:05 PM

Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.

Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?

---

I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.

If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.

In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.

Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.

Perhaps... or maybe good/evil should not be codified into rules and left to the DM/GM/Judge adjudicate with respect to their particular game. As Rob Necronomicon pointed out, torturing a goblin and then selling it to a carnival is very WFRP. Hence in a WFRP game (or one in a similar vein) that would be the expected/"good" behavior. And maybe in your game Paladins of the Order of Righteousness are permitted (and even expected to) torture the un-righteous. 

Food for thought.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 31, 2022, 01:04:09 PM
It was virtually part and parcel of nearly all old-school D&D games. Need info from the evil orc to rescue the prisoners? Start chopping his fingers off slowly with a rusty dagger.

  And we wonder why the game got a dubious reputation ...

  (In 2E/3E Ravenloft, this would qualify as Routine Torture of an Evil character, meaning you have a 4% chance of attracting the attention of the Dark Powers.)

Here is an old, long post of mine:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2016/08/torture-should-it-have-game-mechanic.html

Here is a bit:

If the victim is highly motivated to tell exactly what the torturer wants to hear, how can the PCs know the victim is telling the truth (or even knows it) at all? Most NPCs should quickly tell anything a torturer wants to hear to avoid further harm (in many books and movies, the character will allow himself to suffer significantly before lying, in order to make the lie more believable).

The only situation where torturing a character could yield useful results is when the truth can be checked before the prisoner is released ("Where is the treasure? If we don't find it, you'll suffer more!"). But this is not much different than intimidation; the pain only makes the threat more immediate and credible.