On a number of occasions my PCs have a captured an NPC and wanted to torture them to get information. I had been handling it as a hard-no, your PC is now evil, and (in my game) evil PCs become my NPCs. But having thought about it, perhaps there is some middle road between no-torture and gristly RP of torture. Thoughts on the topic are appreciated.
Well, there's always the handy Interrogation skill in GURPS. Okay roll, okay good. I do like Traveller's uncertain tasks where the PCs don't always know for sure if they succeeded for things like this.
In a game where good and evil are these real things with magical powers, torture is simply evil and engaging in it will mean that no good clerical magic will work on the character until they atone for the crime and maybe not even then. And let us bear in mind that evil clerics get Cause Light Wounds, not Cure Light Wounds.
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 10:52:39 AM
On a number of occasions my PCs have a captured an NPC and wanted to torture them to get information. I had been handling it as a hard-no, your PC is now evil, and (in my game) evil PCs become my NPCs. But having thought about it, perhaps there is some middle road between no-torture and gristly RP of torture. Thoughts on the topic are appreciated.
Meh.
Show the players who want to torture the folly of their ways by making the subject of their torture session be a complete masochist who thinks that by suffering then they will reach Heaven. The torture subject will give false information in order to extend the torture session or increase the pain of the torture session. It is tough to threaten someone who digs being threatened.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?
I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.
If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.
IIRC, "The Book of Exalted Deeds" for D&D 3.5E torture is considered an evil act, even if for the greater good. In a fantasy setting there are perfectly acceptable work-arounds, like "charm" or "compulsion" spells (you didn't specify what kind of campaign you are running). Truth serums and the like work the same in espionage settings. Demonstrations of holy power can enhance intimidation checks. Menace of torture without meaning it via a "bluff" check can work too (remember that the target can try to give fake answers via his own bluff roll...) Illusions and false identities are other solutions.
If your players really want to "do the deed" and you worry about graphic representations of torture (pulling out nails and the like), workarounds in a fantasy setting include putting a demon in a cell full of holy symbols (my favourite) and other hands-off methods of causing pain (like continual sounds banging in their ears). In a realistic setting, the "War on Terror" by many Western countries offers many examples of "No, this is not torture, honest!" methods of torture that don't involve pulling out nails (sleep deprivation, waterboarding, having the Jonas Brothers blasted in your ears for unending days...)
Always remember three things: torture is an evil act (it is up to you if "for a greater good" justifies it); it is always evil if there is a clear alternative to torture; torture is against the helpless.
Something done in battle isn't necessarily torture - even if done against a temporarily incapacitated person. It can still be an evil act, as, for example, attacking a helpless village with a band of knights is inherently evil; same if someone fires a fireball or a tactical nuke to kill some orcs knowing that innocent civilians are in the blast area (again, look at all the good acts in the real world that, alas!, sadly cause "collateral damage" for examples of this). BTW, evil acts done to make someone talk ("I killed your first son. If you don't talk I'll kill the second too", or "I'll torture your daughter until you don't talk) are already evil, so there is no debate here.
It was virtually part and parcel of nearly all old-school D&D games. Need info from the evil orc to rescue the prisoners? Start chopping his fingers off slowly with a rusty dagger.
That said I don't recollect anyone 'getting their rocks off'. Or go into excessive gory detail. It was just a means to an end, a way to obtain information quickly in order to find and tackle a greater evil.
The players were not evil in fact they were usually lawful they just wanted to win (by any means necessary). And they never saw it as an evil act either, as they were always torturing bad people.
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Brilliant... Now that's fucking WFRP at its finest! Selling the little freak afterward. That's genius!
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?
I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.
If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.
In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.
Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?
I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.
If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.
In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.
There is if you play with Rule Zero. And I play with Rule Zero. :)
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?
I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.
If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.
I did frown upon it. I didn't want to be the spoilsport, but I did tell them that if they were going to be like that the whole game, there would be consequences. The healer was either a cleric or a paladin and I warned them things might happen.
Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?
I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.
If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.
In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.
Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 05:40:05 PM
Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?
I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.
If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.
In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.
Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.
Perhaps... or maybe good/evil should not be codified into rules and left to the DM/GM/Judge adjudicate with respect to their particular game. As Rob Necronomicon pointed out, torturing a goblin and then selling it to a carnival is very WFRP. Hence in a WFRP game (or one in a similar vein) that would be the expected/"good" behavior. And maybe in your game Paladins of the Order of Righteousness are permitted (and even expected to) torture the un-righteous.
Food for thought.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 31, 2022, 01:04:09 PM
It was virtually part and parcel of nearly all old-school D&D games. Need info from the evil orc to rescue the prisoners? Start chopping his fingers off slowly with a rusty dagger.
And we wonder why the game got a dubious reputation ... :)
(In 2E/3E Ravenloft, this would qualify as Routine Torture of an Evil character, meaning you have a 4% chance of attracting the attention of the Dark Powers.)
Here is an old, long post of mine:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2016/08/torture-should-it-have-game-mechanic.html
Here is a bit:
If the victim is highly motivated to tell exactly what the torturer wants to hear, how can the PCs know the victim is telling the truth (or even knows it) at all? Most NPCs should quickly tell anything a torturer wants to hear to avoid further harm (in many books and movies, the character will allow himself to suffer significantly before lying, in order to make the lie more believable).
The only situation where torturing a character could yield useful results is when the truth can be checked before the prisoner is released ("Where is the treasure? If we don't find it, you'll suffer more!"). But this is not much different than intimidation; the pain only makes the threat more immediate and credible.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 31, 2022, 06:05:54 PM
And we wonder why the game got a dubious reputation ... :)
Well, it didn't... Not in the UK, here or in Europe (nothing significant anyway). It was the bible bashers over in the U.S. and A. Who hated it and thought of it as eeevil.
Torturing people in a game of make-believe means nothing. I mean, how many of us have battered things in GTA or some such violent video game? It's only ever going to be a problem if one of your players is 'off the rails' and isn't a normal human being.
Has anyone ever played a Tzimize in Vampire? Most of them tortured mortals just for fun (and it was done in graphic detail).
Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 05:40:05 PM
Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?
I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.
If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.
In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.
Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.
Perhaps... or maybe good/evil should not be codified into rules and left to the DM/GM/Judge adjudicate with respect to their particular game. As Rob Necronomicon pointed out, torturing a goblin and then selling it to a carnival is very WFRP. Hence in a WFRP game (or one in a similar vein) that would be the expected/"good" behavior. And maybe in your game Paladins of the Order of Righteousness are permitted (and even expected to) torture the un-righteous.
Food for thought.
Not really. The only things that D&D 5E and WFRP have in common are that they are both fantasy RPGs. Other than that commonality, they are apples and oranges. I was under the impression that we were talking about D&D 5E, with all of its alignments, since that was the frame of reference used by the OP.
In games that allow evil alignments, my experience has been:
GM: Wait a minute. What's your alignment again?
Player: Neutral Evil
GM: Carry on
Otherwise, does it fit the tone of the game? Does the tone of the game fit the table? If yes, what is the content rating of the game, scene may be faded to black, narrated, or described in detail. What is the implication of this act within the setting, alignment shifts are possible and may, along with other consequences, render the character unplayable in the campaign. Warn of consequences before accepting and adjudicating the action. "Are you sure you want to do this? If you do, then..." Thereafter adjudicate the action within the game and table constraints.
I generally just don't go there unless the people I RP with I know really well and keep the whole torture thing kinda vague.
After saying that, in my teens, there was all sorts of stupid (in game only) stuff going on. Much of which has already been discussed in this thread.
No. I don't wanna hear some player's juvenile jerk-off fantasies about how they'd torture a goblin prisoner.
If torture becomes germane to the game, I'll resolve it with a dice roll and move on, applying any consequences for alignment and scenario.
I never had the PCs torture someone in any game/system I ran, ever - and this across all the player groups I GMed for. Even when they pulled some "extraordinary rendition" (which made for exciting sessions) they already had in place systems to find the truth without resorting to torture. I liked how in the 3E era "The Book of Exalted Deeds" tackled the topic but I never had to look in it for suggestions, as the players came up with alternatives all by themselves.
I had a single instance when a NPC resorted to torture a "dear one" for another NPC to make her talk - with the players being forced to watch and unable to act. It made for a very dramatic moment, but it was the exception that confirmed the rule. For sure torture was implied many times in my campaigns ("The villagers that survived a goblin attack assured us that the prisoners will talk...") but always off-screen.
Lastly, never forget the real life lessons by Hanss Scharff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff). He was the master nazi interrogator and he never resorted to violence or torture. After the war he was even invited to the United States to teach his techniques to US interrogators.
The details of the torture are generally irrelevant, it would be resolved with a dice roll to avoid pointless gratuitous detail.
Likely a medical check would need to be made to avoid the victim dying before they can reveal anything useful.
Then an interrogation check to actually get useful information. More likely than not the information is faulty in some way.
Sanity roles are likely needed if the game supports that.
And then RP consequences depending on frequency and severity. For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 09:48:03 PM
Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 05:40:05 PM
Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?
I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.
If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.
In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.
Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.
Perhaps... or maybe good/evil should not be codified into rules and left to the DM/GM/Judge adjudicate with respect to their particular game. As Rob Necronomicon pointed out, torturing a goblin and then selling it to a carnival is very WFRP. Hence in a WFRP game (or one in a similar vein) that would be the expected/"good" behavior. And maybe in your game Paladins of the Order of Righteousness are permitted (and even expected to) torture the un-righteous.
Food for thought.
Not really. The only things that D&D 5E and WFRP have in common are that they are both fantasy RPGs. Other than that commonality, they are apples and oranges. I was under the impression that we were talking about D&D 5E, with all of its alignments, since that was the frame of reference used by the OP.
Actually, I never said what system I was using for my game, as it didn't seem germane. But since the point has been raised, I run a DCC game, but without the law/chaos dichotomy. And except for differentiating between evil and not-evil (because I am not interested in running an "evil" campaign), I don't really use alignment.
Quote from: dkabq on August 01, 2022, 06:58:42 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 09:48:03 PM
Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 05:40:05 PM
Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?
I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.
If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.
In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.
Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.
Perhaps... or maybe good/evil should not be codified into rules and left to the DM/GM/Judge adjudicate with respect to their particular game. As Rob Necronomicon pointed out, torturing a goblin and then selling it to a carnival is very WFRP. Hence in a WFRP game (or one in a similar vein) that would be the expected/"good" behavior. And maybe in your game Paladins of the Order of Righteousness are permitted (and even expected to) torture the un-righteous.
Food for thought.
Not really. The only things that D&D 5E and WFRP have in common are that they are both fantasy RPGs. Other than that commonality, they are apples and oranges. I was under the impression that we were talking about D&D 5E, with all of its alignments, since that was the frame of reference used by the OP.
Actually, I never said what system I was using for my game, as it didn't seem germane. But since the point has been raised, I run a DCC game, but without the law/chaos dichotomy. And except for differentiating between evil and not-evil (because I am not interested in running an "evil" campaign), I don't really use alignment.
Mea culpa.I stand corrected.
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.
Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.
That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 01, 2022, 07:02:04 AM
Quote from: dkabq on August 01, 2022, 06:58:42 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 09:48:03 PM
Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 31, 2022, 05:40:05 PM
Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM
Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 31, 2022, 11:20:27 AM
In the game I ran for my brother and friends... that was the starter set of 5E. They manage to knock out one of the goblins and decide to interrogate him so that they know of any more ambushes on their way to Phandalin. So they restrained him, chopped off his extremities while the cleric or the paladin kept casting healing spells so he wouldn't pass out. Then they attached him to a board with wheels on, tried to sell him to a carnival and name him Stumpy. I didn't like it at first but the party is what the party is, I guess.
Holy shit! That is sadistic AF. How did the cleric and paladin managed to keep their powers while participating on that stuff, unless they worshiped an evil god or something?
I usually let players do whatever, but there are always consequences if they cross some kind of line, particularly if they engage in stupid evil behavior in circumstances where they might be opposed by guards or alert the locals that something's up. With torture it depends a lot on the context, since I could see situations where time is of the essence and PCs might feel compelled to torture a captive for information if they're not cooperating and they need to save someone.
If PCs were seriously torturing someone for information, I would probably handle it through a combination of RP and some type of interrogation or intimidation skill, while having the captive make some type of check or saving throw to resist pain to avoid caving in and start giving out details.
In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.
Whelp, that is something else wrong with 5E IMHO.
Perhaps... or maybe good/evil should not be codified into rules and left to the DM/GM/Judge adjudicate with respect to their particular game. As Rob Necronomicon pointed out, torturing a goblin and then selling it to a carnival is very WFRP. Hence in a WFRP game (or one in a similar vein) that would be the expected/"good" behavior. And maybe in your game Paladins of the Order of Righteousness are permitted (and even expected to) torture the un-righteous.
Food for thought.
Not really. The only things that D&D 5E and WFRP have in common are that they are both fantasy RPGs. Other than that commonality, they are apples and oranges. I was under the impression that we were talking about D&D 5E, with all of its alignments, since that was the frame of reference used by the OP.
Actually, I never said what system I was using for my game, as it didn't seem germane. But since the point has been raised, I run a DCC game, but without the law/chaos dichotomy. And except for differentiating between evil and not-evil (because I am not interested in running an "evil" campaign), I don't really use alignment.
Mea culpa.I stand corrected.
No worries my dude. As D&D 5E is the 800-lb gorilla, it was a easy assumption to make. And you brought up some interesting points, which I appreciate.
I've got two broad bands for my fantastical games. How it gets handled depends on which band it is in.
1. The "rough them up a little to see if they talk" thing. This has to be in genre, not too graphic, and restrained. It's usually more bluster than anything else, although there might be a punch to the stomach or a slap that leaves a bruise. You know, the kind of things that happen to the hero when the non-sadistic bad guys have a temper and want the information, but don't really know how to get it. And of course, the characters in these stories can take that kind of abuse--because they are characters in those stories. If it's what your WW2 era drill sergeant would do to you to bring you down a peg, but probably no long-term consequences, then it's OK. (Important to note here that in this kind of genre, people rarely get concussions, CTE is not a thing, etc. One punch to the head is not going to kill 99.99% of the population.)
2. Torture in genre. It's fade to black, almost always done by one NPC to some other NPC, in the past. That is, the characters find people that have been tortured, but it's not graphically conveyed. On those rare occasions when I think a player is starting to go from Band 1 to Band 2, I've got a simple answer that I use for a lot of such questionable practices in game (not just torture). I ask the players (all of them), "If the roles were reversed, and it was your character on the receiving end, would you be OK with this?" Then I give them time to discuss it. Usually, the answer is a pretty darn quick "No!". And that's the end of it. Because I've got a long-standing rule that whatever the players do in the game is established as valid procedure for the genre and the setting, such that they can expect it themselves later.
I find that players voluntarily locking the boundaries down as a group is far more effective at establishing the exact lines. Of course, I'm not playing with a random crowd. In the unlikely even that I had an all-teen group of males that weren't thinking very straight, I'd let them do what they want and then turn it back on them later the same adventure. After explaining very clearly and bluntly GM to players that it would be the consequence. If that lesson didn't take after a few tries, that would be the end of that group. I don't mind the line moving a little for how rough things can get, but I do expect there to be a line.
Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 10:52:39 AM
On a number of occasions my PCs have a captured an NPC and wanted to torture them to get information. I had been handling it as a hard-no, your PC is now evil, and (in my game) evil PCs become my NPCs. But having thought about it, perhaps there is some middle road between no-torture and gristly RP of torture. Thoughts on the topic are appreciated.
Depends on the setting and that is or isnt allowed and what impact it has on the characters and those around them.
In one setting its going to be probably common. Warhammer being a big one there. World of Darkness being another. Both of these are very grim and brutal settings where horrific things are ever present.
Contrast that with say Call of Cthulhu where acts of torture are going to errode sanity of the one doing the act and anyone nearby. Ir D&D where such acts can and likely will cause alignment drifts into the negative when also can and likely will impact things.
Then you have settings in the middle of all this where it may happen. Its not considered a good thing at all. But sometimes it may be the last resort in a bad situation. Some superhero RPGs have that element and repercussions for doing so based on the situation and severity.
Low level torture can be things like threats, intimidation, fear tactics, a war of nerves. Rather than physycal harm. Nightmare inducing devices, powers, chemicals, or magic are another. Transformation can be another. Such as being turned into an animal or an inanimate, but aware statue. Sensory deprivation can have some unusual effects too.
And so on.
But at the end if the day if it makes you, the DM uncomfortable. Then just say "No." or "Fuck off and Die. No." as needed.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 07:07:52 AM
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.
Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.
That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).
I disagree on the basis that the PCs have fate points which mark them out as characters of metaphysical significance. Now it
might not he immediate but it marks them out if and when they do encounter followers and avatars of various entities. And of course makes such encounters more likely.
Also with the Chaos gods I wasn't really talking about divine retribution but divine reward. E.g."Good job exemplifying my aspect by mutilating that captured prisoner and enjoying it. Have a tentacle on the house...."
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 11:11:57 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 07:07:52 AM
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.
Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.
That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).
I disagree on the basis that the PCs have fate points which mark them out as characters of metaphysical significance. Now it might not he immediate but it marks them out if and when they do encounter followers and avatars of various entities. And of course makes such encounters more likely.
Also with the Chaos gods I wasn't really talking about divine retribution but divine reward. E.g."Good job exemplifying my aspect by mutilating that captured prisoner and enjoying it. Have a tentacle on the house...."
The players have fate purely for a preservation mechanic that is loosely explained by them being 'marked' as being slightly better than the average mortal. Given the wound rate, it's badly needed.
Maybe I should have used the term 'divine intervention'. It does not happen like that in WFRP. Yeah for an NPC who's been dabbling in magic or deliberately cavorting with a chaos entity, sure. But to gain the favor of chaos you'd really want to be killing people en masse and in a sadistic fashion. Or at least sacrificing the odd human here and there and dedicating it to an entity.
It would be far more likely that you'd gain the favor or interest of a chaos cult.
Quote from: Omega on August 01, 2022, 10:59:40 AM
But at the end if the day if it makes you, the DM uncomfortable. Then just say "No." or "Fuck off and Die. No." as needed.
I think that's the key issue for all these moral factors in an RPG. If you don't like it as a GM or player then probably better just to give it a miss. At the end of the day just find the right group for your needs.
Greetings!
In my Thandor campaign, I have developed both an Interrogation Skill, and a Torture Skill. I also have a special Torture Events Table, where the prisoner being tortured has a chance at several different results. Some results are, The Will is Broken!: Break down and provide all known information to the interrogator; Endure the Torture; Endure the Torture and provide Babbling Nonsense; Tower of Iron Will: The character reaches a place of Iron Will, and resists all pain and efforts of interrogation, even unto death.
Torture Methods (Options within the Torture Skill)
Light Torture: The character suffers non-life threatening pain, suffering, and injuries. 50% chance of some light scarring. 25% chance per week of gaining some kind of psychosis, hatred, phobia, or special trait.
Severe Torture: Constitution Saving Throws Required; Life-threatening injuries, blood loss, and trauma. 90% Chance of substantial, permanent scarring or markings. 75% Chance of gaining some kind of psychosis, hatred, phobia, or special trait, per day of sustained torture. 10% Chance of Succumbing To The Dark Whispers--The Character develops 1D3 Dark Mutations. Skilled, professional Torturers can typically maintain Severe Torture and avoid killing the subject; however, Severe Torture always has a potential for sudden death. Characters that manage to survive Severe Torture are typically permanently scarred for life, and often also experience dramatic changes in their personality, worldview, habits or mannerisms. Significant change, whether dramatic or sometimes subtle, is virtually a certainty in most cases.
Interrogations and torture sessions are often episodes of enormous drama, plot development, and also character advancement, growth, and even change.
With such details provided, I have an adequate framework in which to deal with any episodes of the Player Characters becoming imprisoned and tortured--or when and if they themselves are in the position of power and control, and hold the fate of their captured enemies in their hands.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on August 01, 2022, 11:29:41 AM
Greetings!
Interrogations and torture sessions are often episodes of enormous drama, plot development, and also character advancement, growth, and even change.
With such details provided, I have an adequate framework in which to deal with any episodes of the Player Characters becoming imprisoned and tortured--or when and if they themselves are in the position of power and control, and hold the fate of their captured enemies in their hands.
This would be my attitude too.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 11:31:33 AM
Quote from: SHARK on August 01, 2022, 11:29:41 AM
Greetings!
Interrogations and torture sessions are often episodes of enormous drama, plot development, and also character advancement, growth, and even change.
With such details provided, I have an adequate framework in which to deal with any episodes of the Player Characters becoming imprisoned and tortured--or when and if they themselves are in the position of power and control, and hold the fate of their captured enemies in their hands.
This would be my attitude too.
Greetings!
Yes, I have had more than a few occasions where Player Characters have themselves crowed and bragged about how they were tortured by the Orcs, or the Dark Necromancer, or whatever, and managed to survive. Eagerly showing off their scars that mark their suffering and courage--while often also remaining quiet or reticent about disclosing the deeper emotional or psychological traits or traumas that their character now endures. Depending, of course. Some such details can be humorous, interesting, besides horrifying, of course. Strange habits, weird phobias, deep-seated hatreds which burst forth in dramatic ways at unexpected times. and more. The players love it.
I've also seen the Players get in touch with their bloodlust a well. Fuck with their lovers, family, kids, their friends. People they really liked or admired, or relied on. Yeah, their moral constraints rapidly go out the damned window. Even the women--who are customarily a bit more reserved and apprehensive about embracing such things as torture--when I have fucked with people or creatures that were precious to them, yeah, even the women have gotten very bloodthirsty. Personally, very dramatically. Pinchers, fire, hot tongs, fireball down the necromancer's throat. Whatever. In such episodes, there has typically been no remorse whatsoever, because I often play villains as very wicked and evil bastards. The players also typically recognize such episodes as being dramatically powerful and important, for many aspects. Plot development, secrets revealed, character rising to shine, all kinds of motivations and character development going on, as well as cathartic moments of justice and pure satisfaction.
Players also generally recognize that, except for such truly meaningful circumstances, engaging themselves in torture "Just for the fuck of it" isn't something they do, as all are aware of the costs and potential costs involved, to the conscience themselves at least, if not more obvious ramifications due to alignment, church membership, class, and so on. Most people are aware that embracing sadism as a practice is detrimental to a person's character and soul, and thus wisely avoid such, even apart from exterior consequences such that their deity, church, or community may desire or seek to impose upon such an individual.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 11:28:37 AM
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 11:11:57 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 07:07:52 AM
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.
Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.
That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).
I disagree on the basis that the PCs have fate points which mark them out as characters of metaphysical significance. Now it might not he immediate but it marks them out if and when they do encounter followers and avatars of various entities. And of course makes such encounters more likely.
Also with the Chaos gods I wasn't really talking about divine retribution but divine reward. E.g."Good job exemplifying my aspect by mutilating that captured prisoner and enjoying it. Have a tentacle on the house...."
The players have fate purely for a preservation mechanic that is loosely explained by them being 'marked' as being slightly better than the average mortal. Given the wound rate, it's badly needed.
Maybe I should have used the term 'divine intervention'. It does not happen like that in WFRP. Yeah for an NPC who's been dabbling in magic or deliberately cavorting with a chaos entity, sure. But to gain the favor of chaos you'd really want to be killing people en masse and in a sadistic fashion. Or at least sacrificing the odd human here and there and dedicating it to an entity.
It would be far more likely that you'd gain the favor or interest of a chaos cult.
This is incorrect. 1st and 2nd edition WFRP explicitly note that Fate represent the characters being marked by the gods and having a wider destiny. 4th edition says they represent luck, guts, the gods or destiny.
This isn't just descriptive either. In Empire in Flames refusing the call to adventure will remove the PCs fate points.
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 12:17:44 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 11:28:37 AM
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 11:11:57 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 07:07:52 AM
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.
Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.
That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).
I disagree on the basis that the PCs have fate points which mark them out as characters of metaphysical significance. Now it might not he immediate but it marks them out if and when they do encounter followers and avatars of various entities. And of course makes such encounters more likely.
Also with the Chaos gods I wasn't really talking about divine retribution but divine reward. E.g."Good job exemplifying my aspect by mutilating that captured prisoner and enjoying it. Have a tentacle on the house...."
The players have fate purely for a preservation mechanic that is loosely explained by them being 'marked' as being slightly better than the average mortal. Given the wound rate, it's badly needed.
Maybe I should have used the term 'divine intervention'. It does not happen like that in WFRP. Yeah for an NPC who's been dabbling in magic or deliberately cavorting with a chaos entity, sure. But to gain the favor of chaos you'd really want to be killing people en masse and in a sadistic fashion. Or at least sacrificing the odd human here and there and dedicating it to an entity.
It would be far more likely that you'd gain the favor or interest of a chaos cult.
This is incorrect. 1st and 2nd edition WFRP explicitly note that Fate represent the characters being marked by the gods and having a wider destiny. 4th edition says they represent luck, guts the gods or destiny.
This isn't just descriptive either. In Empire in Flames refusing the call to adventure will remove the PCs fate points.
But you still won't get 'divine intervention' in the way you said you would.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 12:19:26 PM
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 12:17:44 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 11:28:37 AM
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 11:11:57 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 07:07:52 AM
Quote from: Visitor Q on August 01, 2022, 06:54:24 AM
For example torture in WFRP is likely to attract the attention of several chaos gods Slaneesh, Khorne etc evil deities such as Khaine or the wrath of Good aligned gods such as Shallya.
Nah... the Chaos gods have far bigger fish to fry so there won't ever be any 'divine retribution'. And if you're a good (or even evil) character who's torturing any kind of chaos-born entity (Orcs or Goblins, or Beastmen, etc) you're likely to get a pat on the back by the populous.
That's not to say it will have no consequences. Maybe you will attract some of the Orcs' kin or some such who come back for revenge. That is of course assuming the tale ever gets out. Because torturing anything so evil as a chaos creature will result in death (unless they escape or are freed).
I disagree on the basis that the PCs have fate points which mark them out as characters of metaphysical significance. Now it might not he immediate but it marks them out if and when they do encounter followers and avatars of various entities. And of course makes such encounters more likely.
Also with the Chaos gods I wasn't really talking about divine retribution but divine reward. E.g."Good job exemplifying my aspect by mutilating that captured prisoner and enjoying it. Have a tentacle on the house...."
The players have fate purely for a preservation mechanic that is loosely explained by them being 'marked' as being slightly better than the average mortal. Given the wound rate, it's badly needed.
Maybe I should have used the term 'divine intervention'. It does not happen like that in WFRP. Yeah for an NPC who's been dabbling in magic or deliberately cavorting with a chaos entity, sure. But to gain the favor of chaos you'd really want to be killing people en masse and in a sadistic fashion. Or at least sacrificing the odd human here and there and dedicating it to an entity.
It would be far more likely that you'd gain the favor or interest of a chaos cult.
This is incorrect. 1st and 2nd edition WFRP explicitly note that Fate represent the characters being marked by the gods and having a wider destiny. 4th edition says they represent luck, guts the gods or destiny.
This isn't just descriptive either. In Empire in Flames refusing the call to adventure will remove the PCs fate points.
But you still won't get 'divine intervention' in the way you said you would.
Well that's just an opinion. Which is fair enough. But its not like spontaneous mutantion or divine intervention is particularly uncommon in the Old World.
Quote from: SHARK on August 01, 2022, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 01, 2022, 11:31:33 AM
Quote from: SHARK on August 01, 2022, 11:29:41 AM
Greetings!
Interrogations and torture sessions are often episodes of enormous drama, plot development, and also character advancement, growth, and even change.
With such details provided, I have an adequate framework in which to deal with any episodes of the Player Characters becoming imprisoned and tortured--or when and if they themselves are in the position of power and control, and hold the fate of their captured enemies in their hands.
This would be my attitude too.
Greetings!
Yes, I have had more than a few occasions where Player Characters have themselves crowed and bragged about how they were tortured by the Orcs, or the Dark Necromancer, or whatever, and managed to survive. Eagerly showing off their scars that mark their suffering and courage--while often also remaining quiet or reticent about disclosing the deeper emotional or psychological traits or traumas that their character now endures. Depending, of course. Some such details can be humorous, interesting, besides horrifying, of course. Strange habits, weird phobias, deep-seated hatreds which burst forth in dramatic ways at unexpected times. and more. The players love it.
I've also seen the Players get in touch with their bloodlust a well. Fuck with their lovers, family, kids, their friends. People they really liked or admired, or relied on. Yeah, their moral constraints rapidly go out the damned window. Even the women--who are customarily a bit more reserved and apprehensive about embracing such things as torture--when I have fucked with people or creatures that were precious to them, yeah, even the women have gotten very bloodthirsty. Personally, very dramatically. Pinchers, fire, hot tongs, fireball down the necromancer's throat. Whatever. In such episodes, there has typically been no remorse whatsoever, because I often play villains as very wicked and evil bastards. The players also typically recognize such episodes as being dramatically powerful and important, for many aspects. Plot development, secrets revealed, character rising to shine, all kinds of motivations and character development going on, as well as cathartic moments of justice and pure satisfaction.
Players also generally recognize that, except for such truly meaningful circumstances, engaging themselves in torture "Just for the fuck of it" isn't something they do, as all are aware of the costs and potential costs involved, to the conscience themselves at least, if not more obvious ramifications due to alignment, church membership, class, and so on. Most people are aware that embracing sadism as a practice is detrimental to a person's character and soul, and thus wisely avoid such, even apart from exterior consequences such that their deity, church, or community may desire or seek to impose upon such an individual.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Again you've hit the nail on the head here as far as I'm concerned.
I've seen players lose their shit on behalf of their character in order to get revenge for some past wrongdoing and they will go to any lengths if severe enough. But they always have a reason. I mean, you can't put a price on that player drama and character investment. I like to make my evil-doers right bastards because it often bring out those golden player moments.
I have no problem with torturing PCs as well. :)
And I totally agree with you again - Just being 'evil' for the sake of it is pointless and childish. Now, if a PC wants to go the evil route I certainly won't stop them. However, Karma will be coming for you. The PCs are always free to do what they want but the world is a 'living place' and every action will have a reaction.
I've certainly seen some very nasty play from women when they play Vampire, very nasty indeed!
Torture happens in my games. It can get dark, but we are aware of it and try not to take it too seriously. Nobody is sadistically enjoying it as far as I can tell. We don't shy away from historical accuracy in our games, and torture was very common in the middle ages. Like others have said, torture is a useful plot point and motivator for things like revenge. And use of torture absolutely has consequences.
In one session, the PCs were interrogating a captured NPC and there was some "motivating violence." They got the information they asked for (and it was true), but they didn't believe it because "he probably said that to get us to stop." Pause. Lightbulb turns on. We all got a visceral experience of that lesson without hurting a real person. This is one of the great things about RPGs!
Our group usually plays some edition or variant of D&D and we use the Sense Motive skill to determine the effectiveness of torture. Almost anybody will talk under torture, but they might lie, do the way to get the right information is to be able to detect if the victim lies - which is sense motive.
We don't have any kind of punishments for PCs using torture unless it's a paladin, cleric, or some other class that has some moral or behavioral standards.
My thoughts on torture in games:
If it has to happen on-screen abstract it out to a contest of whatever skill torture falls under versus Self-Control. Don't roleplay it, as any roleplay rude enough to break the NPC is likely to make players uncomfortable as well. It's also kind of rude to your hosts.
Note, though, that like Certain Death or other perils, the threat of torture can be every bit as persuasive as actual torture.
Coming up with a clever plan to psyche the person out should also be encouraged, as it typically makes for better roleplaying. And also because in general, players making plans are invested in the game, and their plans should generally at least help, even if they don't completely succeed.
It doesn't come up often. My adult peers running PCs tend to try and bribe or psychologically trick prisoners into giving away vital information. More of trying to do something more interesting than any distaste for inflicting body horror. This lets the threat of torture be a tool of those who would get their hands on them, something the enemy would do to you. Hopefully this adds some theatric dread to the PCs enemies.
My players used to torture captured Npcs back when we played Kult (so it's not like it was out of characters for the PCs, what with their negative mental balance).
But after they got what they wanted they just executed their victims (can't leave witnesses I guess) whcih I thought wasn't fair.
So next time I just had the victim die of a heart attack as they started the torture.
Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM
In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.
(https://i.giphy.com/media/Ow59c0pwTPruU/giphy.webp)
Quote from: Reckall on August 01, 2022, 04:57:00 AM
I never had the PCs torture someone in any game/system I ran, ever - and this across all the player groups I GMed for. Even when they pulled some "extraordinary rendition" (which made for exciting sessions) they already had in place systems to find the truth without resorting to torture. I liked how in the 3E era "The Book of Exalted Deeds" tackled the topic but I never had to look in it for suggestions, as the players came up with alternatives all by themselves.
I had a single instance when a NPC resorted to torture a "dear one" for another NPC to make her talk - with the players being forced to watch and unable to act. It made for a very dramatic moment, but it was the exception that confirmed the rule. For sure torture was implied many times in my campaigns ("The villagers that survived a goblin attack assured us that the prisoners will talk...") but always off-screen.
Lastly, never forget the real life lessons by Hanss Scharff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff). He was the master nazi interrogator and he never resorted to violence or torture. After the war he was even invited to the United States to teach his techniques to US interrogators.
There's no doubt Interrogation works better than Torture, the only problem is that Interrogation can take a long time. Torture is also useless for anything that you can't verify without Torturing someone else. Things like "Is X a Witch, Communist, Terrorist" etc. For "where's the bomb?" torture might be more effective.
Quote from: crkrueger on August 01, 2022, 07:40:47 PM
Quote from: Slambo on July 31, 2022, 01:32:06 PM
In 5e theres no method to take a paladin's powers or even a cleric. The worst they can do is become an oathbreaker.
(https://i.giphy.com/media/Ow59c0pwTPruU/giphy.webp)
Im pretty sure there is mention 'somewhere' about clerics falling from grace in 5e. But can not find it so it may well be not a thing. It was never mentioned in BX and its squirrelled away in AD&D. Not sure on 2e.
Paladins in 5e indeed seem to have no fall from grace rules. Least I can not recall them and the oathbreaker doesnt really count as its an NPC path more than a PC one.
In one campaign one of my characters was put in a pretty bad situation. But that was discussed and Ok'd prior amd was overall only known between me and the DM what happened to the character.
In our early Gamma World campaign one of the PCs had their start off begin with some pretty severe torture and left for dead. It certainly set the tone that things were deadly serious.
In a Star Frontiers campaign the PCs all got caught by a crime lord and electro-tortured. But eventually got loose and proceeded to wreak havoc on the boss' space station. They also gave a space pirate a taste of her own medicine when they found out shed been torturing some of the peanut aliens on Volturnus.
I go into graphic details and make the players disgusted to the point they think I was a master executioner in a previous life.
Just kidding! I tend to skip details and roll some dice. Although I've not tortured a player in a game (other than having a bad night) for decades. It's one of those things best mentioned and not played out.
Well, I don't require players to have their characters always adhere to a value system based on the Declaration of Human Rights. To tell the truth, I have a bigger problem with situations where it is the PCs who are being tortured. I once had such a scene, I describe the terrible pain the character is feeling, the player's reaction is something like "OK, so what? I don't feel that pain".
Quote from: Jason Coplen on August 01, 2022, 10:31:15 PM
I go into graphic details and make the players disgusted to the point they think I was a master executioner in a previous life.
Just kidding! I tend to skip details and roll some dice. Although I've not tortured a player in a game (other than having a bad night) for decades. It's one of those things best mentioned and not played out.
Having worked the trauma bay, I could probably go into some gross-out detail, but I don't...usually...
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 02, 2022, 12:59:34 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on August 01, 2022, 10:31:15 PM
I go into graphic details and make the players disgusted to the point they think I was a master executioner in a previous life.
Just kidding! I tend to skip details and roll some dice. Although I've not tortured a player in a game (other than having a bad night) for decades. It's one of those things best mentioned and not played out.
Having worked the trauma bay, I could probably go into some gross-out detail, but I don't...usually...
The funny thing is the game itself tends to be pretty violent and descriptive. I mean, when you got adventurers who are hacking bad guys to bits it's an exceedingly bloody affair. I tend to use Conan the Barbarian movie as a template. Decapitations, exploding knees, and fans of crimson from deep fissure-like wounds.
So torture is just removing bits that are smaller.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 02, 2022, 01:22:39 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on August 02, 2022, 12:59:34 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on August 01, 2022, 10:31:15 PM
I go into graphic details and make the players disgusted to the point they think I was a master executioner in a previous life.
Just kidding! I tend to skip details and roll some dice. Although I've not tortured a player in a game (other than having a bad night) for decades. It's one of those things best mentioned and not played out.
Having worked the trauma bay, I could probably go into some gross-out detail, but I don't...usually...
The funny thing is the game itself tends to be pretty violent and descriptive. I mean, when you got adventurers who are hacking bad guys to bits it's an exceedingly bloody affair. I tend to use Conan the Barbarian movie as a template. Decapitations, exploding knees, and fans of crimson from deep fissure-like wounds.
So torture is just removing bits that are smaller.
Greetings!
Damn straight, Rob! For many, many years, I have been accustomed to using critical strike charts from either WFRP or Rolemaster. Likewise, I make constant and regular use of such similar tables for my D&D games.
Maybe we are immoral, bloodthirsty savages that revel in violence and gore?
We are not alone, however.
All of my players eagerly roll their dice, and exclaim, "What does it say on the crit chart? I hit the fucker hard with two strikes from my battleaxe!" OR "YES! Three arrows hit her dead on target! Any cool results on the chart?"
In combat actions, I am typically descriptive and detailed. Torture episodes are not exempt, and are treated with the appropriate attention to blood, gore, and suffering they deserve. When players are the victims, such details etch like brands in their minds the roadmap to revenge and victory against such villains. When the Players are in power over an enemy, such details form the tidbits of emotional satisfaction and justice against the villain for their crimes. Players love this stuff! They want their enemies to scream and suffer! They are well satisfied when they get the confession, or the information they seek, or just the finality of executing some evil bastard, and knowing that they ensured that the evil bastard didn't get away lightly, or squirm and escape, but they too, experienced being helpless and filled with terror, and damned with agony until they died.
The simple villagers, the rainbow unicorns, the happy faeries, the kind centaurs--they deserve justice and vengence!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My campaigns always have an explicit social contract with a "stoplight" content warning system.
This includes:
- A general movie rating.
- A Whitelist for content I, the GM, need for the campaign's story to proceed.
- A Greenlist for content players marked as generally acceptable on a safety questionnaire
- A Yellowlist for content players marked as permissible if and only if you have metagame approval from the other players. This typically includes inter-PC romance.
- A Redlist for content players marked as a safety consideration or just generally distasteful (I view them as fundamentally the same.) Redlist content is banned.
Depending on the campaign, explicit sex and torture can either be on the Yellowlist or on the Redlist. If you're being an edgelord and know it (and I have been in those groups) I suppose you can greenlist it. 0/ 10. Do not recommend.
Full disclosure, this approach is derived from Monte Cook Gaming's "Consent in Gaming." Yes, indeed; he is on the Red for the Woke-index for this exact product, but I do think there are salvageable ideas in it. I hate safety terminology with a firey passion, too, as it makes it sound like roleplaying risks allowing sexual assault. I don't view safety tools as being there for safety; they're there to keep the group on the same page about what kind of campaign they're creating, and that means drawing lines on what is acceptable content, what isn't, what can be if you follow due metagame process, and really all this stuff should be written down. The Consent in Gaming questionnaire (with some adjustments) is perfect for that. It's not safety; it's preventing someone ruin the bloody campaign, and to a less extent it's not being an ass and accidentally or deliberately fingering someone with a phobia (I've seen both.) I would much prefer to call these "content guidelines," and in my own work I do. But for better or for worse, the industry decided these tools will be called, "safety tools."
Yay.
Regardless, after implementing stoplight social contracts, I have basically not had an issue with players randomly asking to torture an NPC when that's obviously inappropriate for the tone of the campaign.
Quote from: Fheredin on August 02, 2022, 07:22:10 PM
My campaigns always have an explicit social contract with a "stoplight" content warning system.
This includes:
- A general movie rating.
- A Whitelist for content I, the GM, need for the campaign's story to proceed.
- A Greenlist for content players marked as generally acceptable on a safety questionnaire
- A Yellowlist for content players marked as permissible if and only if you have metagame approval from the other players. This typically includes inter-PC romance.
- A Redlist for content players marked as a safety consideration or just generally distasteful (I view them as fundamentally the same.) Redlist content is banned.
Depending on the campaign, explicit sex and torture can either be on the Yellowlist or on the Redlist. If you're being an edgelord and know it (and I have been in those groups) I suppose you can greenlist it. 0/ 10. Do not recommend.
Full disclosure, this approach is derived from Monte Cook Gaming's "Consent in Gaming." Yes, indeed; he is on the Red for the Woke-index for this exact product, but I do think there are salvageable ideas in it. I hate safety terminology with a firey passion, too, as it makes it sound like roleplaying risks allowing sexual assault. I don't view safety tools as being there for safety; they're there to keep the group on the same page about what kind of campaign they're creating, and that means drawing lines on what is acceptable content, what isn't, what can be if you follow due metagame process, and really all this stuff should be written down. The Consent in Gaming questionnaire (with some adjustments) is perfect for that. It's not safety; it's preventing someone ruin the bloody campaign, and to a less extent it's not being an ass and accidentally or deliberately fingering someone with a phobia (I've seen both.) I would much prefer to call these "content guidelines," and in my own work I do. But for better or for worse, the industry decided these tools will be called, "safety tools."
Yay.
Regardless, after implementing stoplight social contracts, I have basically not had an issue with players randomly asking to torture an NPC when that's obviously inappropriate for the tone of the campaign.
Your players must be absolutely horrible people, if you need such tools for them. I've been gaming for over forty years now, both in a home game that still has four of the original players, and in public gaming groups (including PFS and LG). I have had exactly one session where a problem player took the game in an uncomfortable direction. The GM told him to knock it off and he wasn't invited back. All of this without ever using safety tools or a written set of guidelines or "trigger words." I treat stories about these kinds of terrible gamers who need to be protected against the same way I treat stories of gaming groups that were "unwelcoming" to women or minorities: the people who relate these stories always seem to have another agenda that is being served. And, in this case, they always seem to either be attention-whoring snowflakes or people who want to gatekeep out other people they don't like (all while decrying gatekeeping and demanding safety tools as a remedy).
For me, it's generally a fade-to-black thing. While I expect it's an effective way to get what's wanted, I find it squicky and don't want to rp the experience in detail. I also don't think I would want to game with people who want to play it out in detail. It's only ever come up a few times when I was running a game, so I don't feel a need for a detailed system - maybe just an opposed charisma check or somesuch. As for consequences, if it's known that PCs engaged in torture NPCs will exhibit appropriate reactions for their culture. And in an alignment game, it's a step towards evil unless there's an extremely good reason, e.g. make a terrorist tell you which school bus they put a bomb in or the like.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 02, 2022, 11:52:36 PM
Quote from: Fheredin on August 02, 2022, 07:22:10 PM
My campaigns always have an explicit social contract with a "stoplight" content warning system.
This includes:
- A general movie rating.
- A Whitelist for content I, the GM, need for the campaign's story to proceed.
- A Greenlist for content players marked as generally acceptable on a safety questionnaire
- A Yellowlist for content players marked as permissible if and only if you have metagame approval from the other players. This typically includes inter-PC romance.
- A Redlist for content players marked as a safety consideration or just generally distasteful (I view them as fundamentally the same.) Redlist content is banned.
Depending on the campaign, explicit sex and torture can either be on the Yellowlist or on the Redlist. If you're being an edgelord and know it (and I have been in those groups) I suppose you can greenlist it. 0/ 10. Do not recommend.
Full disclosure, this approach is derived from Monte Cook Gaming's "Consent in Gaming." Yes, indeed; he is on the Red for the Woke-index for this exact product, but I do think there are salvageable ideas in it. I hate safety terminology with a firey passion, too, as it makes it sound like roleplaying risks allowing sexual assault. I don't view safety tools as being there for safety; they're there to keep the group on the same page about what kind of campaign they're creating, and that means drawing lines on what is acceptable content, what isn't, what can be if you follow due metagame process, and really all this stuff should be written down. The Consent in Gaming questionnaire (with some adjustments) is perfect for that. It's not safety; it's preventing someone ruin the bloody campaign, and to a less extent it's not being an ass and accidentally or deliberately fingering someone with a phobia (I've seen both.) I would much prefer to call these "content guidelines," and in my own work I do. But for better or for worse, the industry decided these tools will be called, "safety tools."
Yay.
Regardless, after implementing stoplight social contracts, I have basically not had an issue with players randomly asking to torture an NPC when that's obviously inappropriate for the tone of the campaign.
Your players must be absolutely horrible people, if you need such tools for them. I've been gaming for over forty years now, both in a home game that still has four of the original players, and in public gaming groups (including PFS and LG). I have had exactly one session where a problem player took the game in an uncomfortable direction. The GM told him to knock it off and he wasn't invited back. All of this without ever using safety tools or a written set of guidelines or "trigger words." I treat stories about these kinds of terrible gamers who need to be protected against the same way I treat stories of gaming groups that were "unwelcoming" to women or minorities: the people who relate these stories always seem to have another agenda that is being served. And, in this case, they always seem to either be attention-whoring snowflakes or people who want to gatekeep out other people they don't like (all while decrying gatekeeping and demanding safety tools as a remedy).
I expect this is a generational thing, as gaming for "forty years," would put you in the middle of Gen X, and I'm a Millennial, so you definitely
have been playing with a completely different cohort of people. The sad reality of my generation is that very few of them are well behaved, and that was especially true during their teen and tween years. If you don't remember, being over the top edgy and assertive was totally a thing back from 1995(ish) to 2010.
Is safety my primary reason to have an explicit social contract? No. I do it because players knowing what the content limits are makes for a better story and therefore better game experience. It also helps the overall process to have a formal metagame governance process for the game itself, as it helps the game move beyond the, "GM = God" mentality, and having a formal process requires writing things down. It just happens that this functions as a safety tool.
I also find it baffling that so few people are open to explicit social contracts. You're willing to erase and rewrite your inventory several times a session, but you aren't willing to write down the terms of the game itself? I don't get it.
Just because someone is a particular age doesn't mean they exclusively game with the same age of people. Several of my groups have a wide range of ages.
Sometimes things come up that are outside the game. The GM (most often) or perhaps a player speaks up and the idea is dropped and we move on. This is easily done with torture or sex or whatever. If fact, GMs have done this for decades like "Okay, you go up stairs with the tavern wench," and the game moves on.
It's reasonable for people who have been getting along fine by being courteous and respectful (and other normal social behavior) to be hostile to overwrought "tools" and "frameworks" particularly when the carry pretentious names like "social contract."
"Safety tools" are presented as some kind of esoteric wisdom that has only been recently unearthed. You stupid troglodytes have been doing it all wrong. We bring the sacred Tablets of Safety that codify the laws of how to be a decent person. Perhaps this is why many gamers find them offensive.
Besides, it's completely unreasonable to expect people to know what they want and don't want before the game is underway. There's no way in hell I would waste 2 hours of my life watching a movie about dog shows, but I enjoyed Best in Show. Contradiction!
Lists of allowed/disallowed content stifle the game. There is no way in hell I would want torture in the game, but maybe a situation will arise where I would be perfectly fine with torture coming up. How the fuck do I know at the start of the game? Hello emergent narrative! (And if it turns out I don't want it, I speak up when it comes up.)
Maybe you are correct and it is a generational thing. We used to channel surf and occasionally find cool shows we never knew existed. We used to go to movies blind just because our friends were going. These days people curate everything and if something bothers them they cut it off. Don't like someone? Ghost them. You couldn't do that before. You had to answer the fucking phone and talk to the person. You know, like a normal socialized person.
I find it baffling that people feel the need to fill out an explicit written contract just to play a game. It's excessively legalistic and micro managing. And it also opens up the door for people to start thinking up minor pet peeves and hang ups that are silly and wouldn't have come up otherwise, and forcing their personal bugbears on the rest of the group.
Like inter-PC romance, for example. Usually this would be a non issue, and if it comes up (during play), it comes up. But since we went through the trouble of writing up a contract now I need explicit permission from other players to even engage in inter-PC romance? Usually my character simply makes advances IC towards the other PC if appropriate for the scene, and if the player gets weirded out I back off. Otherwise it proceeds through RP normally. Obviously I'm not gonna have my character force themselves on another PC (or NPC for that matter) or engage in explicit sex, but if characters go there it happens, generally fade to black. None of that stuff requires an explicit contract in advance.
The only thing I need written down beyond character data or adventure notes are the house rules. And that's only because I tend to have a lot of those, sometimes with significant changes to the core rules or homebrewed rules baked in, including stuff that may affect character creation and progression. So it pays to have a document with all the changes so everyone's on the same page and can reference them when creating or advancing characters, or if using a special rule not found in the core books.
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 03, 2022, 09:18:28 AM
Besides, it's completely unreasonable to expect people to know what they want and don't want before the game is underway. There's no way in hell I would waste 2 hours of my life watching a movie about dog shows, but I enjoyed Best in Show. Contradiction!
Pretty much, there's been plenty of times I've watched films I normally wouldn't watch just cuz I used to go to the movies a lot with my mom in my teens and I ended up liking or appreciating for what they were.
Quote
Lists of allowed/disallowed content stifle the game. There is no way in hell I would want torture in the game, but maybe a situation will arise where I would be perfectly fine with torture coming up. How the fuck do I know at the start of the game? Hello emergent narrative! (And if it turns out I don't want it, I speak up when it comes up.)
Yeah, torture is normally not my thing and the times it has come in my games it's usually being edgy players RPing stupid evil characters (who later faced stupid evil consequences), but I wouldn't be against some of the character driven, dramatic stuff that SHARK described for his own games. Sometimes torture can make narrative sense and enhance the game experience if done appropriately. But how are we gonna find out if we mark it off as "red" in a vacuum with no context before play even starts?
Quote
Maybe you are correct and it is a generational thing. We used to channel surf and occasionally find cool shows we never knew existed. We used to go to movies blind just because our friends were going. These days people curate everything and if something bothers them they cut it off. Don't like someone? Ghost them. You couldn't do that before. You had to answer the fucking phone and talk to the person. You know, like a normal socialized person.
Boomers fucked up Millennials with all that helicopter parenting and participation trophies, then 9/11 fucked them up the rest of the way by creating a culture that valued "safety" over liberty and held official authority as sacrosanct. Now we need an official authoritative document on what content is allowed before a game starts.
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 09:42:04 AM
Boomers fucked up Millennials with all that helicopter parenting and participation trophies
Technically, it was the GenX who fucked up the GenZ (or iGen). Having said that, yes, helicopter parenting is part of the problem, as kids are unable to live in the real world and learn about it during the learning age. Once they go out - in college for example - they are unprepared and scared of everything.
Of course
laws forced helicopter parenting. I do not have kids myself but it was pretty amazing to me when my friends started to have them to learn about the astounding array of laws they had to follow. Now some US states are putting out "free-range parenting laws (https://www.treehugger.com/children-protected-reasonable-independence-laws-three-states-5188371)", which basically say "Remember how you grew up? Your kids are allowed to do the same without fear of being arrested." Amazing.
These kids, BTW, were forced to go on social media, learn about "life" there and... 'nuff said. That there is an "epidemic of mental health problems" in today's youth is recognised by everybody - and nobody knows how to fix it. "Official documents" about if torture and other stuff are allowed at your table are the product of this situation, not 9/11 or Pearl Harbor.
Quote from: Reckall on August 03, 2022, 10:51:36 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 09:42:04 AM
Boomers fucked up Millennials with all that helicopter parenting and participation trophies
Technically, it was the GenX who fucked up the GenZ (or iGen). Having said that, yes, helicopter parenting is part of the problem, as kids are unable to live in the real world and learn about it during the learning age. Once they go out - in college for example - they are unprepared and scared of everything.
Of course laws forced helicopter parenting. I do not have kids myself but it was pretty amazing to me when my friends started to have them to learn about the astounding array of laws they had to follow. Now some US states are putting out "free-range parenting laws (https://www.treehugger.com/children-protected-reasonable-independence-laws-three-states-5188371)", which basically say "Remember how you grew up? Your kids are allowed to do the same without fear of being arrested." Amazing.
These kids, BTW, were forced to go on social media, learn about "life" there and... 'nuff said. That there is an "epidemic of mental health problems" in today's youth is recognised by everybody - and nobody knows how to fix it. "Official documents" about if torture and other stuff are allowed at your table are the product of this situation, not 9/11 or Pearl Harbor.
I was talking about Millennials, who were the ones who got the initial brunt of the helicopter parenting & participation trophy craze. By the time GenZ came into the scene the initial groundwork and all these laws were already in place, and GenX themselves also got fucked up by the earlier Boomer generation, who basically abandoned us, with both parents at work, and made us raise ourselves with close to zero parental guidance for anything. So I wouldn't be surprised that GenXers suck at parenting given that we don't know what that looks like, and when we did get parenting it was mostly bad parenting IME.
Also disagree about 9/11. That event and the mess of a response that followed messed with the cultural psyche more than people will ever realize. I saw a massive cultural shift from then onward from the previously carefree and almost optimistic 90s—where almost every social battle other than gay marriage seemed to have been won and the future looked progressive (in the pre-woke era sense of the word) and free of bigotry—to one were liberty was seen as optional and an impediment to the essential "safety", and criticism of state authority was framed as a demoralizing slight against the troops.
That was the turning point that cemented the shift towards authoritarianism that began with the helicopter parent's attempts to curate every aspect of the younger generation's lives, as well as the initially failed, but persistent attempts to introduce political correctness in the 90s that began to gain strength in the 2010s, after people had already endured an era of post-9/11 authoritarianism and overvaluing of "safety". And it's that prioritization of "safely"—along with a past generation prevented from experiening hardship—that I think ultimately opened the door for political correctness and "words = violence" to sip in. Ultimately giving us "safety" tools to equip us with the tools necessary to handle the unbearable trauma of playing elf games without explicit social rules and contracts.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 02, 2022, 11:52:36 PM
Quote from: Fheredin on August 02, 2022, 07:22:10 PM
My campaigns always have an explicit social contract with a "stoplight" content warning system.
This includes:
- A general movie rating.
- A Whitelist for content I, the GM, need for the campaign's story to proceed.
- A Greenlist for content players marked as generally acceptable on a safety questionnaire
- A Yellowlist for content players marked as permissible if and only if you have metagame approval from the other players. This typically includes inter-PC romance.
- A Redlist for content players marked as a safety consideration or just generally distasteful (I view them as fundamentally the same.) Redlist content is banned.
Depending on the campaign, explicit sex and torture can either be on the Yellowlist or on the Redlist. If you're being an edgelord and know it (and I have been in those groups) I suppose you can greenlist it. 0/ 10. Do not recommend.
Full disclosure, this approach is derived from Monte Cook Gaming's "Consent in Gaming." Yes, indeed; he is on the Red for the Woke-index for this exact product, but I do think there are salvageable ideas in it. I hate safety terminology with a firey passion, too, as it makes it sound like roleplaying risks allowing sexual assault. I don't view safety tools as being there for safety; they're there to keep the group on the same page about what kind of campaign they're creating, and that means drawing lines on what is acceptable content, what isn't, what can be if you follow due metagame process, and really all this stuff should be written down. The Consent in Gaming questionnaire (with some adjustments) is perfect for that. It's not safety; it's preventing someone ruin the bloody campaign, and to a less extent it's not being an ass and accidentally or deliberately fingering someone with a phobia (I've seen both.) I would much prefer to call these "content guidelines," and in my own work I do. But for better or for worse, the industry decided these tools will be called, "safety tools."
Yay.
Regardless, after implementing stoplight social contracts, I have basically not had an issue with players randomly asking to torture an NPC when that's obviously inappropriate for the tone of the campaign.
Your players must be absolutely horrible people, if you need such tools for them. I've been gaming for over forty years now, both in a home game that still has four of the original players, and in public gaming groups (including PFS and LG). I have had exactly one session where a problem player took the game in an uncomfortable direction. The GM told him to knock it off and he wasn't invited back. All of this without ever using safety tools or a written set of guidelines or "trigger words." I treat stories about these kinds of terrible gamers who need to be protected against the same way I treat stories of gaming groups that were "unwelcoming" to women or minorities: the people who relate these stories always seem to have another agenda that is being served. And, in this case, they always seem to either be attention-whoring snowflakes or people who want to gatekeep out other people they don't like (all while decrying gatekeeping and demanding safety tools as a remedy).
Greetings!
Strange, isn't it, how they always seem to have another agenda?
These kinds of smarmy, smug, self-righteous people make me sick. They are disgusting, and corrosive to our entire hobby.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 12:14:26 PM
Quote from: Reckall on August 03, 2022, 10:51:36 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 09:42:04 AM
Boomers fucked up Millennials with all that helicopter parenting and participation trophies
Technically, it was the GenX who fucked up the GenZ (or iGen). Having said that, yes, helicopter parenting is part of the problem, as kids are unable to live in the real world and learn about it during the learning age. Once they go out - in college for example - they are unprepared and scared of everything.
Of course laws forced helicopter parenting. I do not have kids myself but it was pretty amazing to me when my friends started to have them to learn about the astounding array of laws they had to follow. Now some US states are putting out "free-range parenting laws (https://www.treehugger.com/children-protected-reasonable-independence-laws-three-states-5188371)", which basically say "Remember how you grew up? Your kids are allowed to do the same without fear of being arrested." Amazing.
These kids, BTW, were forced to go on social media, learn about "life" there and... 'nuff said. That there is an "epidemic of mental health problems" in today's youth is recognised by everybody - and nobody knows how to fix it. "Official documents" about if torture and other stuff are allowed at your table are the product of this situation, not 9/11 or Pearl Harbor.
I was talking about Millennials, who were the ones who got the initial brunt of the helicopter parenting & participation trophy craze. By the time GenZ came into the scene the initial groundwork and all these laws were already in place, and GenX themselves also got fucked up by the earlier Boomer generation, who basically abandoned us, with both parents at work, and made us raise ourselves with close to zero parental guidance for anything. So I wouldn't be surprised that GenXers suck at parenting given that we don't know what that looks like, and when we did get parenting it was mostly bad parenting IME.
Also disagree about 9/11. That event and the mess of a response that followed messed with the cultural psyche more than people will ever realize. I saw a massive cultural shift from then onward from the previously carefree and almost optimistic 90s—where almost every social battle other than gay marriage seemed to have been won and the future looked progressive (in the pre-woke era sense of the word) and free of bigotry—to one were liberty was seen as optional and an impediment to the essential "safety", and criticism of state authority was framed as a demoralizing slight against the troops.
That was the turning point that cemented the shift towards authoritarianism that began with the helicopter parent's attempts to curate every aspect of the younger generation's lives, as well as the initially failed, but persistent attempts to introduce political correctness in the 90s that began to gain strength in the 2010s, after people had already endured an era of post-9/11 authoritarianism and overvaluing of "safety". And it's that prioritization of "safely"—along with a past generation prevented from experiening hardship—that I think ultimately opened the door for political correctness and "words = violence" to sip in. Ultimately giving us "safety" tools to equip us with the tools necessary to handle the unbearable trauma of playing elf games without explicit social rules and contracts.
Greetings!
Very sharp analysis there, my friend! I agree.
The whole "participation trophy"; "Safety!"; and "Helicopter Parenting" have totally fucked over an entire generation and more. These kinds of ideas and behaviors instilled in them at youth by idealistic, stupid, or absent parents--and lots of indulgent, single mommies--has crippled these young people for life. It is why so many of them are entirely non-functional as adults. It is why there are "Adulting 101" classes being offered in colleges, right now. It is why so many concepts, ideas, situations, and ways of being that everyone before this generation simply rolled with--send the current generation into trauma.
And no, it isn't just the "mean bastard Conservatives" that are noticing this, and critiquing these social and mental dynamics. Recently, a good number of articles I've read about the US Military Recruiting commands have plainly stated--"75% of young people from 18-24 years old are physically and psychologically unfit to serve in the US military." Yeah, 75%. That means that only 25% within that age group are even decent potential recruits. The military officers involved have described these dynamics as a serious and ongoing recruiting crisis that is not going away--but is more than likely to continue, and become worse.
We see the deep effects of this lack of parenting, lack of social skills, absence of problem solving, enormous attitudes of childish entitlement, deep-seated fears and a trainwreck of all kinds of mental illnesses and emotional and mental dysfunction throughout the gaming hobby. It used to be that encountering such people was decidedly a minority--now they are increasingly the majority of gamers. Or at least representing a huge increase in numbers encountered.
These fallout social and moral effects--resulting from the total failure of a whole generation of parents--has huge and disastrous effects for our culture--but we have seen the enormous effects even on our gaming hobby.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 09:42:04 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 03, 2022, 09:18:28 AM
Besides, it's completely unreasonable to expect people to know what they want and don't want before the game is underway. There's no way in hell I would waste 2 hours of my life watching a movie about dog shows, but I enjoyed Best in Show. Contradiction!
Pretty much, there's been plenty of times I've watched films I normally wouldn't watch just cuz I used to go to the movies a lot with my mom in my teens and I ended up liking or appreciating for what they were.
Quote
Lists of allowed/disallowed content stifle the game. There is no way in hell I would want torture in the game, but maybe a situation will arise where I would be perfectly fine with torture coming up. How the fuck do I know at the start of the game? Hello emergent narrative! (And if it turns out I don't want it, I speak up when it comes up.)
Yeah, torture is normally not my thing and the times it has come in my games it's usually being edgy players RPing stupid evil characters (who later faced stupid evil consequences), but I wouldn't be against some of the character driven, dramatic stuff that SHARK described for his own games. Sometimes torture can make narrative sense and enhance the game experience if done appropriately. But how are we gonna find out if we mark it off as "red" in a vacuum with no context before play even starts?
Quote
Maybe you are correct and it is a generational thing. We used to channel surf and occasionally find cool shows we never knew existed. We used to go to movies blind just because our friends were going. These days people curate everything and if something bothers them they cut it off. Don't like someone? Ghost them. You couldn't do that before. You had to answer the fucking phone and talk to the person. You know, like a normal socialized person.
Boomers fucked up Millennials with all that helicopter parenting and participation trophies, then 9/11 fucked them up the rest of the way by creating a culture that valued "safety" over liberty and held official authority as sacrosanct. Now we need an official authoritative document on what content is allowed before a game starts.
Greetings!
Yes, indeed, while combat in my games are routinely graphic, bloody, and brutal--actual episodes of full-set torture is honestly fairly rare. It isn't like torture comes up every week or something. Though, when it does present itself, as I mentioned, whether the Players are being tortured, or in the position of torturing a villain--I always seek to get the most drama, catharsis, and character-driven dynamics out of such episodes. Without exception, such episodes in my experience have been emotionally meaningful, plot-and-drama relevant, and satisfying to everyone involved.
And yes, the whole "official documents" thing I find horrifying and deeply offensive. Not just to myself personally, but I can't imagine even presenting such documents to my players. They would crucify me for certain. The mockery, the derision, the laughter, the absolute dumbfounded "What the fuck is this, SHARK?" would embarrass and shame me into oblivion. No. I would never present such documents to my players and I never will. Even thinking about it feels insulting, shameful, and condescending, like I am treating them all like clueless 12 year old children.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: VisionStorm on August 03, 2022, 09:22:04 AM
I find it baffling that people feel the need to fill out an explicit written contract just to play a game. It's excessively legalistic and micro managing. And it also opens up the door for people to start thinking up minor pet peeves and hang ups that are silly and wouldn't have come up otherwise, and forcing their personal bugbears on the rest of the group.
Used to be you just... you know... TALKED to players and got a feel for what was ok and what was not.
Problem is. Some DMs did no such thing and dropped stuff on players that really the fuck should have been discussed beforehand. Then the woke and the storygamer cultists parade this around as "proof" that DMs are horrible and must be shackled and chained down.
This whole X-card craze is just another offshoot of the storygamer cults attempts to dominate and subvert.
Quote from: Omega on August 03, 2022, 02:45:57 PM
Problem is. Some DMs did no such thing and dropped stuff on players that really the fuck should have been discussed beforehand. Then the woke and the storygamer cultists parade this around as "proof" that DMs are horrible and must be shackled and chained down.
I agree, and further how common is this anyway?
In my view, RPG Horror Stories are:
30% fiction
30% a skewed one-sided story
30% blown out of proportion or speculation
10% real, so yeah, talk to the group about it instead of posting on the internet about it
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 03, 2022, 02:57:50 PM
I agree, and further how common is this anyway?
In my view, RPG Horror Stories are:
30% fiction
30% a skewed one-sided story
30% blown out of proportion or speculation
10% real, so yeah, talk to the group about it instead of posting on the internet about it
It wouldn't surprise me if it is more common now than it was then. I'm not saying it is, as I have no way to know, but it wouldn't surprise me.
The real problems usually had one common denominator--teenage boys involved. And probably more in the 13-15 age range than later. If anyone was going to go overboard on the torture graphics (or anything else), it was one of them. Sure, there's always been people that stay stuck in that development range long after it should be embarrassing. Likewise, people that can't seem to adjust their filters and vocalization based on the ideas that, "hey, what was OK when everyone at the table was male and 14 is maybe not OK in this other situation." Me, I always told the teens to assume that their grandmother could walk through the door at any moment. If they were OK with that, they could say it or do it. Mainly because I didn't want to hear it, but I figured if their grandmother could tolerate it, I'd take one for the team.
Since so many "moderns" are perpetually stuck in early adolescence, and their biggest cheerleaders celebrate this deficiency instead of being embarrassed by it, it wouldn't be shocking if we had more of it.
I absolutely think that most of that ilk probably do need written contracts to play, because they've never grown up, and don't intend to do so. Me, I'd rather play with a group of 13-15 year old males. At least then something might be salvageable from the situation after a few years, especially if their characters weren't shielded from the consequences.
Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 10:52:39 AM
On a number of occasions my PCs have a captured an NPC and wanted to torture them to get information. I had been handling it as a hard-no, your PC is now evil, and (in my game) evil PCs become my NPCs. But having thought about it, perhaps there is some middle road between no-torture and gristly RP of torture. Thoughts on the topic are appreciated.
(Answered before reading all responses. Apologies if I repeat something already said.)
I think it depends on the type of torture.
Inducing pain or cutting off fingers? Definitely, 100% evil.
Sleep deprivation or psychological torture? Eh, that might be a bit more grey.
It also depends on the type of setting. Are the characters supposed to be epic heroes in a high fantasy? Then they shouldn't think they can torture anyone (even the worst villians) without facing serious repercussions. Are they a squad of soldiers in a gritty war setting? Well, then... torture might not be "officially" sanctioned, but whatever wins the war, right?
It's also important to recognize the manner with which the topic is being played. Is the player just trying to be an edgelord (probably more likely to be seen at a convention or public game than at a home table)? Then shut that down, because the player is only going to try to take it as far as they can. But if the player is using discretion and is interested only in advancing the story/drama, then maybe let it play out to it's natural conclusion.
Quote from: Effete on August 03, 2022, 09:06:35 PM
Inducing pain or cutting off fingers? Definitely, 100% evil.
So, in the series Band of Brothers, there's a scene toward the end where a drunken US replacement had shot one of the main group who had survived since D-day and who had tried to stop the drunk during a rampage where he shot a few other allied soldiers. While others took the shot guy to a medic, others in the group took the drunk to a house, tied him to a chair, and beat the shit out of him. That qualifies as torture. But was it evil? No.
Is inducing pain to a subdued person torture? Sure. Is it evil, not always.
I don't......
...ever .....or try my best not to.
One of most loyal players - I know that was tortured when she was younger.
Such scenes or moments I try to avoid.
- Ed C.
Quote from: dkabq on July 31, 2022, 10:52:39 AM
How do you handle torture in your game?
I don't.
Quote from: rytrasmi on August 03, 2022, 09:51:00 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 03, 2022, 09:06:35 PM
Inducing pain or cutting off fingers? Definitely, 100% evil.
So, in the series Band of Brothers, there's a scene toward the end where a drunken US replacement had shot one of the main group who had survived since D-day and who had tried to stop the drunk during a rampage where he shot a few other allied soldiers. While others took the shot guy to a medic, others in the group took the drunk to a house, tied him to a chair, and beat the shit out of him. That qualifies as torture. But was it evil? No.
Is inducing pain to a subdued person torture? Sure. Is it evil, not always.
You're right.
I spoke a bit too hastily it seems. My larger point was that context matters.
Greetings!
In my miniature collection, I have a whole set of dungeon and torture chamber furniture, items, and accessories. Suspended slave cages, stages for naked slaves to be examined, bought and sold, as well as torture tables, wracks, iron maidens, all kinds of items. Then, of course, there are several mad scientists and "Good Doctors", as well as Hooded Torturers and jail guards. Various slaves and prisoners, some tied up, bound in shackles, or otherwise huddled about crying and trembling in fear. Definitely adds many details and features to dungeon scenes that the Players may encounter.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on August 06, 2022, 02:53:52 PM
Greetings!
In my miniature collection, I have a whole set of dungeon and torture chamber furniture, items, and accessories. Suspended slave cages, stages for naked slaves to be examined, bought and sold, as well as torture tables, wracks, iron maidens, all kinds of items. Then, of course, there are several mad scientists and "Good Doctors", as well as Hooded Torturers and jail guards. Various slaves and prisoners, some tied up, bound in shackles, or otherwise huddled about crying and trembling in fear. Definitely adds many details and features to dungeon scenes that the Players may encounter.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
How do you use them though?
I'm assuming that you have them as the bad guys which the players must defeat and the torture victims or slaves are there to be rescued. The OP seemed more concerned with what happens when the Player Characters are the torturers in your games.
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 06, 2022, 03:11:36 PM
Quote from: SHARK on August 06, 2022, 02:53:52 PM
Greetings!
In my miniature collection, I have a whole set of dungeon and torture chamber furniture, items, and accessories. Suspended slave cages, stages for naked slaves to be examined, bought and sold, as well as torture tables, wracks, iron maidens, all kinds of items. Then, of course, there are several mad scientists and "Good Doctors", as well as Hooded Torturers and jail guards. Various slaves and prisoners, some tied up, bound in shackles, or otherwise huddled about crying and trembling in fear. Definitely adds many details and features to dungeon scenes that the Players may encounter.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
How do you use them though?
I'm assuming that you have them as the bad guys which the players must defeat and the torture victims or slaves are there to be rescued. The OP seemed more concerned with what happens when the Player Characters are the torturers in your games.
Greetings!
Hey Jeff! Yeah, mostly the miniatures and props are of course used by the villains. As for Players, they have periodically tortured some villain, but it has usually been spontaneous, out in the field, that kind of thing. Players, even ones that might be inclined to embrace various levels of torture, by simply being heroic adventurers, they don't have elaborate dungeon and torture chamber set-ups. *Laughing* It just isn't really a thing, for most Players, in my experience. Most villains end up dying during the fighting. The people that Players most definitely would be interested in torturing, seldom live long enough to suffer through the experience. ;D
How about your players, Jeff? Have any of them embraced torturing evil villains?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Many years ago, I had a party (I was DM) that had snuck in the "back door" of a castle, per se, and got into the living chambers of the bad guy while he was elsewhere. The elderly chambermaid and butler were in the chamber, and the party began to question them about the bad guy (his location, the layout, guards, etc...). The maid was obviously terrified and was unable to speak, so one of the players said that he slapped her once to get her to talk. Should I mention that said player was playing a Paladin? The whole table lost it... we were in stitches! To this day, we still tease that player about it. Anytime the party encounters an old woman, we'll all turn to that player and ask, "Before we go on... would you like to slap her?" or some such jibe ("Quick, old lady, tell us where the exit is, before he slaps you!"). So, yeah, "torture" has turned out to be a joke for us...
Quote from: SHARK on August 06, 2022, 03:25:09 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on August 06, 2022, 03:11:36 PM
Quote from: SHARK on August 06, 2022, 02:53:52 PM
Greetings!
In my miniature collection, I have a whole set of dungeon and torture chamber furniture, items, and accessories. Suspended slave cages, stages for naked slaves to be examined, bought and sold, as well as torture tables, wracks, iron maidens, all kinds of items. Then, of course, there are several mad scientists and "Good Doctors", as well as Hooded Torturers and jail guards. Various slaves and prisoners, some tied up, bound in shackles, or otherwise huddled about crying and trembling in fear. Definitely adds many details and features to dungeon scenes that the Players may encounter.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
How do you use them though?
I'm assuming that you have them as the bad guys which the players must defeat and the torture victims or slaves are there to be rescued. The OP seemed more concerned with what happens when the Player Characters are the torturers in your games.
Greetings!
Hey Jeff! Yeah, mostly the miniatures and props are of course used by the villains. As for Players, they have periodically tortured some villain, but it has usually been spontaneous, out in the field, that kind of thing. Players, even ones that might be inclined to embrace various levels of torture, by simply being heroic adventurers, they don't have elaborate dungeon and torture chamber set-ups. *Laughing* It just isn't really a thing, for most Players, in my experience. Most villains end up dying during the fighting. The people that Players most definitely would be interested in torturing, seldom live long enough to suffer through the experience. ;D
How about your players, Jeff? Have any of them embraced torturing evil villains?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I had one kid at an open table game whose only experience was video games. He was playing a halfling thief and they had just gotten the best of some goblins. While questioning them about where their lair was, the halfling began cutting off the fingers of an injured goblin until the goblin talked. The rest of us at the table weren't sure how to respond, so we just tried to ignore it. Then once we got the lair location, the halfling eviscerated the goblin and danced in it's innards while it died. Goblin blood and guts everywhere, but mostly on the halfling.
We gave the player the nickname, "Dances With Entrails" and never had another problem from him.