In short, I'm thinking of making an RPG where dog fighting aircraft is a major part of the theme.  My idea is to have a separate minis game for resolving air combat and aerobatic shenanigans. It would be a completely different set of mechanics in part to give the feel of being a pilot vs being on foot.  I'd like to do it where you could use print-n-play paper minis and PC skills would affect aircraft performance.

Would any of you find this type of RPG appealing?  Any advice for making essentially a blended game work?  Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?

LOL.  I'm about 3/4 the way through the base rules of exactly that, a game designed around modern air combat.  It's generated so much enthusiasm among my home groups ... that I've started modifying the rules for a sci-fi adventure game... .  I have a pretty clear focus and idea of how the game should work, which might not fit what you are going for.  Specifically, I have a TotM w/ diagram for the air combat part, just because I wanted to avoid having to play Battletech in the middle of Mechwarrior.  But I'm happy to share (in general) what I've learn and worked through so far...

That's awesome.

I'm using Cepheus Engine as the core of mine.  I'm setting it in the late 20s and going for the serial adventure feel.  I love the golden age of aviation. 

I'm compiling as much info as I can find about aircraft for the time.  I'm hoping to be able to turn data on aircraft into workable play mechanics.  Things like stall speed, climb speed, cruising speed, turning radius, etc are all getting factored in.  I'm debating using a hex grid with maneuvers on a list or just use a plain table top with maneuvering templates. 

Also, I want it to be a well rounded RPG so I am trying to make a well fleshed out pulp/serial adventure setting.  I love the idea of players trying things like trying to board an airship mid flight, parachuting into an enemy base, trying to transfer a patient between flying aircraft, barnstorming to snatch a mcguffin, and any other over the top serial type shenanigans.

I am a  little worried that combining a flight sim minis game might be too much.  I would really like as many people giving feed back as to it would be something you might try at your own tables.

Quote from: BadApple on July 12, 2023, 02:05:31 PM
In short, I'm thinking of making an RPG where dog fighting aircraft is a major part of the theme.  My idea is to have a separate minis game for resolving air combat and aerobatic shenanigans. It would be a completely different set of mechanics in part to give the feel of being a pilot vs being on foot.  I'd like to do it where you could use print-n-play paper minis and PC skills would affect aircraft performance.

Would any of you find this type of RPG appealing?  Any advice for making essentially a blended game work?  Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?

One issue to consider is that miniature wargaming is a different beast than role playing. And some players might not be into miniature wargaming. This might be the part of the game where some players "check out", and go play on their cell phones while others play out the encounter.
This is true for a lot of rpg stuff, but while a puzzle or social encounter might not be some players cup of tea, a miniature wargame encounter usually takes up a big chunk of time, maybe even a whole session.

Now, if everybody is on board, then it's not a problem. I would suggest keeping an eye out for players who seem disinterested in the mini wargame aspect of things, and maybe give them something else to do while the wargame is going on.

Speaking of BattleTech and airplanes and miniatures games...

Check into Crimson Skies for a little bit of inspiration.

The actual miniatures game was fiddly (the damage templates were cool) but the setting was absolute dynamite and it is a damn shame it has sat dormant.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 12, 2023, 04:29:28 PM

Quote from: BadApple on July 12, 2023, 02:05:31 PM
In short, I'm thinking of making an RPG where dog fighting aircraft is a major part of the theme.  My idea is to have a separate minis game for resolving air combat and aerobatic shenanigans. It would be a completely different set of mechanics in part to give the feel of being a pilot vs being on foot.  I'd like to do it where you could use print-n-play paper minis and PC skills would affect aircraft performance.

Would any of you find this type of RPG appealing?  Any advice for making essentially a blended game work?  Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?

One issue to consider is that miniature wargaming is a different beast than role playing. And some players might not be into miniature wargaming. This might be the part of the game where some players "check out", and go play on their cell phones while others play out the encounter.
This is true for a lot of rpg stuff, but while a puzzle or social encounter might not be some players cup of tea, a miniature wargame encounter usually takes up a big chunk of time, maybe even a whole session.

Now, if everybody is on board, then it's not a problem. I would suggest keeping an eye out for players who seem disinterested in the mini wargame aspect of things, and maybe give them something else to do while the wargame is going on.

You're right in the strike zone of my thoughts.  I want to get feedback before I spend 2 years on a passion project that nobody would even try to play.

Quote from: Thornhammer on July 12, 2023, 04:59:45 PM
Speaking of BattleTech and airplanes and miniatures games...

Check into Crimson Skies for a little bit of inspiration.

The actual miniatures game was fiddly (the damage templates were cool) but the setting was absolute dynamite and it is a damn shame it has sat dormant.

I have all the books.  I love the setting and I love the fluff writing by FASA.  That setting would be about 10-15 years later than what I have in mind and they take a left turn on the balkanization but the general feel is much of what I want.

Another inspiration I'm looking at is Wings of War.  I loved it as a minis game, it seems to flow pretty well and not bog down.

Quote from: BadApple on July 12, 2023, 02:05:31 PM
In short, I'm thinking of making an RPG where dog fighting aircraft is a major part of the theme.  My idea is to have a separate minis game for resolving air combat and aerobatic shenanigans. It would be a completely different set of mechanics in part to give the feel of being a pilot vs being on foot.  I'd like to do it where you could use print-n-play paper minis and PC skills would affect aircraft performance.

Would any of you find this type of RPG appealing?  Any advice for making essentially a blended game work?  Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?

This used to be done a lot at GDW. Classic Traveller was compatible with Snapshot, Mayday, Azhanti High Lightning, Fifth Frontier War, and Striker. You could go from RPG to Wargame pretty seamlessly. The only game that did it better was Mekton.

Using Mekton II or Mekton Zeta, you could fight giant Mecha one-to-one as part of a fleet actions then have your pilot character disembark their mech and have a fistfight with the enemy ace pilot
absolutely seamlessly. You might want to take a look at that for ideas.

I love the idea in principle but have never been able to pull it off.

I've begun running a Heavy Gear d20/5e conversion campaign which basically runs like this - there's the 'social' roleplay (get drunk & hit on drunk chicks at the bar, talk about the war, deal with local farmers' issues, etc) and then there's the blowing stuff up in giant robots, with the latter being all tactical & hexy. But it is one single ruleset - you might punch a drunk at the bar, then next day your gear might stomp a GREL supersoldier on the battlefield, and you're rolling attack and damage the same way. Same for skill checks of course. I'm using Roll20 which saves a lot on minis!

I think most people who are big into RP don't want a very crunchy combat sim, but something light can work well. IMO the social side can greatly enhance the combat side and vice versa.

Thanks guys, I'll definitely take a look.  I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel.  If someone already has something that works, I'll borrow and steal ideas from anywhere I can.

Quote from: BadApple on July 12, 2023, 02:05:31 PMWould any of you find this type of RPG appealing?  Any advice for making essentially a blended game work?  Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?

Welcome to game design hell.

I ran Hero Game's Robot Warriors for multiple campaigns back in the ancient time - it's Champions Battletech, so the core rules for both your dude and your mech were the same, just the scale was quite different.

It worked, but only because of the groups. The players were all people who enjoyed both RPGs and minis battles.

I ran a D&D Dragonrider campaign (not Dragonlance, my own world) and while we kept everything theater of the mind, there was a definitely a serious issue with players panic over the death of PCs with deaths of the dragons. It ultimately killed the campaign.

I see a similiar problem for any Flying Vehicular RPG. When the machine is broken, it falls from the sky, goes boom and the PC inside is squished.

In the Mecha campaign, you could die with your mech. Always a possibility, but most fights ended with broken mechs and living pilots. In the Dragonrider campaign, there were LOTS of ways to die - especially if your dragon bites the big one.

"How do you feel about mixing RPGs and minitures tactical games?"

The only edition of D&D I every truly enjoyed was 4E.

I'm primarily a wargamer who only occasionally runs RPGs so my perspective is a bit different as I'm more likely to add RPG elements to miniature game than the other way around.

As to the topic of an air-to-air RPG, firstly I'm not 100% what type of game you are imagining: historical, alternate history, or pulpy sci-fi, which would define what time of craft the PCs would be piloting and what types they'd be fighting.

If the players are all in a single large craft, I'd suggest considering a player-perspective map such as this where if an enemy is 12 O'clock High you place them in that spot.



And this goes well with a "map" of the airplane where you can mark crew positions as well as damage, ammo, equipment, etc.



If the players are in individual planes, there is a game called Down In Flames that has a nice collection of cards representing individual aircraft with what I'd consider the minimum number of stats to properly represent the differences. The game is card based, but it has a decent abstract system of dog fighting that's fast to resolve and I've even seen it simplified into a die roll system in games such as Skies Above Britain.



This game is old a fairly popular and you can get stats for just about every military aircraft from WW1 to the early jet age.



I'm not saying that a miniature game can't work, I'm just trying to open options as there are hundreds of air-to-air combat game ideas out there that fill in the whole range from an RPG-like skill vs skill roll to full blown miniature combat.

I'm very open to a system that works no matter what form it takes.  I really have only two criteria; it has to be configurable to adjustment to a bunch of different types of aircraft and pilot skills, it has to play into the immersion of flying an aircraft while being functionally different in play style from the core RPG system mechanics.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 13, 2023, 12:13:13 PM
As to the topic of an air-to-air RPG, firstly I'm not 100% what type of game you are imagining: historical, alternate history, or pulpy sci-fi, which would define what time of craft the PCs would be piloting and what types they'd be fighting.

As to the feel, I'm looking for a some what grounded pulp adventure feel.  Media like High Road to China and Tails of the Golden Monkey come to mind.  I want to focus on the post WW1 decade of aviation.  Some late war aircraft second hand would be starter planes and the top tier equipment would be the stuff coming out in approximately 1930. 

I like the idea of a aircraft map for a crewed airplane.  I don't think that will work for me in particular because I intend to have individually piloted aircraft.  However, that may be something I keep as a side idea for integrating larger aircraft into the game.

I'm currently looking at a minis game called Wings of War as a core flight mechanic inspiration, I'll see if I can get a copy of Down in Flames to try out.  Do you know a place to get it?

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:19:10 AM
I see a similiar problem for any Flying Vehicular RPG. When the machine is broken, it falls from the sky, goes boom and the PC inside is squished.

I fully understand this as a risk.  I plan to handle this in a couple of ways.  First, I want a low risk of PC death in the event of an aircraft loss.  Second, I plan to have as part of the setting and mechanics that aircraft are easily acquired and easily repaired after a crash.  Loss should be a looming threat however, otherwise it cheapens the risks.  Finally, I envision giving players starting aircraft that they want to trade up from.

Quote from: BadApple on July 12, 2023, 02:05:31 PM
In short, I'm thinking of making an RPG where dog fighting aircraft is a major part of the theme.  My idea is to have a separate minis game for resolving air combat and aerobatic shenanigans. It would be a completely different set of mechanics in part to give the feel of being a pilot vs being on foot.  I'd like to do it where you could use print-n-play paper minis and PC skills would affect aircraft performance.

Would any of you find this type of RPG appealing?  Any advice for making essentially a blended game work?  Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?

If you make something like "Top Gun: the RPG", I'd snap it up w/o a second thought. A game that featured a pilot's life inside and outside the cockpit. Because "cockpit" is a beautiful word  Seriously though, I already have campaign ideas. It could be level or skill based. I'd like a level of complexity in the ruleset though, specifically regarding airborne maneuvers. Rules on how Gs affect the pilot, how dumping fuel affects speed/maneuverability, the different radar modes and how that coordinates with normal observation, the function of a wing, the tactics of pilot-to-pilot communication (because radar is trash for dog-fighting), incorporating modern air-to-air strategy, blahblahblah.

Then the other stuff for RP: how your GF cheated on you during deployment and your wife wants a new house off-base and your unit sucks and you're trying to make grade and your kids fkn hate you and you're too short for ALL this shit.

Make THAT game and I'm in.