In short, I'm thinking of making an RPG where dog fighting aircraft is a major part of the theme. My idea is to have a separate minis game for resolving air combat and aerobatic shenanigans. It would be a completely different set of mechanics in part to give the feel of being a pilot vs being on foot. I'd like to do it where you could use print-n-play paper minis and PC skills would affect aircraft performance.
Would any of you find this type of RPG appealing? Any advice for making essentially a blended game work? Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?
LOL. I'm about 3/4 the way through the base rules of exactly that, a game designed around modern air combat. It's generated so much enthusiasm among my home groups ... that I've started modifying the rules for a sci-fi adventure game... :o. I have a pretty clear focus and idea of how the game should work, which might not fit what you are going for. Specifically, I have a TotM w/ diagram for the air combat part, just because I wanted to avoid having to play Battletech in the middle of Mechwarrior. But I'm happy to share (in general) what I've learn and worked through so far...
That's awesome.
I'm using Cepheus Engine as the core of mine. I'm setting it in the late 20s and going for the serial adventure feel. I love the golden age of aviation.
I'm compiling as much info as I can find about aircraft for the time. I'm hoping to be able to turn data on aircraft into workable play mechanics. Things like stall speed, climb speed, cruising speed, turning radius, etc are all getting factored in. I'm debating using a hex grid with maneuvers on a list or just use a plain table top with maneuvering templates.
Also, I want it to be a well rounded RPG so I am trying to make a well fleshed out pulp/serial adventure setting. I love the idea of players trying things like trying to board an airship mid flight, parachuting into an enemy base, trying to transfer a patient between flying aircraft, barnstorming to snatch a mcguffin, and any other over the top serial type shenanigans.
I am a little worried that combining a flight sim minis game might be too much. I would really like as many people giving feed back as to it would be something you might try at your own tables.
Quote from: BadApple on July 12, 2023, 02:05:31 PM
In short, I'm thinking of making an RPG where dog fighting aircraft is a major part of the theme. My idea is to have a separate minis game for resolving air combat and aerobatic shenanigans. It would be a completely different set of mechanics in part to give the feel of being a pilot vs being on foot. I'd like to do it where you could use print-n-play paper minis and PC skills would affect aircraft performance.
Would any of you find this type of RPG appealing? Any advice for making essentially a blended game work? Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?
One issue to consider is that miniature wargaming is a different beast than role playing. And some players might not be into miniature wargaming. This might be the part of the game where some players "check out", and go play on their cell phones while others play out the encounter.
This is true for a lot of rpg stuff, but while a puzzle or social encounter might not be some players cup of tea, a miniature wargame encounter usually takes up a big chunk of time, maybe even a whole session.
Now, if everybody is on board, then it's not a problem. I would suggest keeping an eye out for players who seem disinterested in the mini wargame aspect of things, and maybe give them something else to do while the wargame is going on.
Speaking of BattleTech and airplanes and miniatures games...
Check into Crimson Skies for a little bit of inspiration.
The actual miniatures game was fiddly (the damage templates were cool) but the setting was absolute dynamite and it is a damn shame it has sat dormant.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 12, 2023, 04:29:28 PM
Quote from: BadApple on July 12, 2023, 02:05:31 PM
In short, I'm thinking of making an RPG where dog fighting aircraft is a major part of the theme. My idea is to have a separate minis game for resolving air combat and aerobatic shenanigans. It would be a completely different set of mechanics in part to give the feel of being a pilot vs being on foot. I'd like to do it where you could use print-n-play paper minis and PC skills would affect aircraft performance.
Would any of you find this type of RPG appealing? Any advice for making essentially a blended game work? Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?
One issue to consider is that miniature wargaming is a different beast than role playing. And some players might not be into miniature wargaming. This might be the part of the game where some players "check out", and go play on their cell phones while others play out the encounter.
This is true for a lot of rpg stuff, but while a puzzle or social encounter might not be some players cup of tea, a miniature wargame encounter usually takes up a big chunk of time, maybe even a whole session.
Now, if everybody is on board, then it's not a problem. I would suggest keeping an eye out for players who seem disinterested in the mini wargame aspect of things, and maybe give them something else to do while the wargame is going on.
You're right in the strike zone of my thoughts. I want to get feedback before I spend 2 years on a passion project that nobody would even try to play.
Quote from: Thornhammer on July 12, 2023, 04:59:45 PM
Speaking of BattleTech and airplanes and miniatures games...
Check into Crimson Skies for a little bit of inspiration.
The actual miniatures game was fiddly (the damage templates were cool) but the setting was absolute dynamite and it is a damn shame it has sat dormant.
I have all the books. I love the setting and I love the fluff writing by FASA. That setting would be about 10-15 years later than what I have in mind and they take a left turn on the balkanization but the general feel is much of what I want.
Another inspiration I'm looking at is Wings of War. I loved it as a minis game, it seems to flow pretty well and not bog down.
Quote from: BadApple on July 12, 2023, 02:05:31 PM
In short, I'm thinking of making an RPG where dog fighting aircraft is a major part of the theme. My idea is to have a separate minis game for resolving air combat and aerobatic shenanigans. It would be a completely different set of mechanics in part to give the feel of being a pilot vs being on foot. I'd like to do it where you could use print-n-play paper minis and PC skills would affect aircraft performance.
Would any of you find this type of RPG appealing? Any advice for making essentially a blended game work? Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?
This used to be done a lot at GDW. Classic Traveller was compatible with Snapshot, Mayday, Azhanti High Lightning, Fifth Frontier War, and Striker. You could go from RPG to Wargame pretty seamlessly. The only game that did it better was Mekton.
Using Mekton II or Mekton Zeta, you could fight giant Mecha one-to-one as part of a fleet actions then have your pilot character disembark their mech and have a fistfight with the enemy ace pilot
absolutely seamlessly. You might want to take a look at that for ideas.
I love the idea in principle but have never been able to pull it off.
I've begun running a Heavy Gear d20/5e conversion campaign which basically runs like this - there's the 'social' roleplay (get drunk & hit on drunk chicks at the bar, talk about the war, deal with local farmers' issues, etc) and then there's the blowing stuff up in giant robots, with the latter being all tactical & hexy. But it is one single ruleset - you might punch a drunk at the bar, then next day your gear might stomp a GREL supersoldier on the battlefield, and you're rolling attack and damage the same way. Same for skill checks of course. I'm using Roll20 which saves a lot on minis!
I think most people who are big into RP don't want a very crunchy combat sim, but something light can work well. IMO the social side can greatly enhance the combat side and vice versa.
Thanks guys, I'll definitely take a look. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel. If someone already has something that works, I'll borrow and steal ideas from anywhere I can.
Quote from: BadApple on July 12, 2023, 02:05:31 PMWould any of you find this type of RPG appealing? Any advice for making essentially a blended game work? Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?
Welcome to game design hell.
I ran Hero Game's Robot Warriors for multiple campaigns back in the ancient time - it's Champions Battletech, so the core rules for both your dude and your mech were the same, just the scale was quite different.
It worked, but only because of the groups. The players were all people who enjoyed both RPGs and minis battles.
I ran a D&D Dragonrider campaign (not Dragonlance, my own world) and while we kept everything theater of the mind, there was a definitely a serious issue with players panic over the death of PCs with deaths of the dragons. It ultimately killed the campaign.
I see a similiar problem for any Flying Vehicular RPG. When the machine is broken, it falls from the sky, goes boom and the PC inside is squished.
In the Mecha campaign, you could die with your mech. Always a possibility, but most fights ended with broken mechs and living pilots. In the Dragonrider campaign, there were LOTS of ways to die - especially if your dragon bites the big one.
"How do you feel about mixing RPGs and minitures tactical games?"
The only edition of D&D I every truly enjoyed was 4E.
I'm primarily a wargamer who only occasionally runs RPGs so my perspective is a bit different as I'm more likely to add RPG elements to miniature game than the other way around.
As to the topic of an air-to-air RPG, firstly I'm not 100% what type of game you are imagining: historical, alternate history, or pulpy sci-fi, which would define what time of craft the PCs would be piloting and what types they'd be fighting.
If the players are all in a single large craft, I'd suggest considering a player-perspective map such as this where if an enemy is 12 O'clock High you place them in that spot.
(https://i.imgur.com/zK5MOVE.jpg)
And this goes well with a "map" of the airplane where you can mark crew positions as well as damage, ammo, equipment, etc.
(https://i.imgur.com/3CROxpz.jpg)
If the players are in individual planes, there is a game called Down In Flames that has a nice collection of cards representing individual aircraft with what I'd consider the minimum number of stats to properly represent the differences. The game is card based, but it has a decent abstract system of dog fighting that's fast to resolve and I've even seen it simplified into a die roll system in games such as Skies Above Britain.
(https://i.imgur.com/4uebwvs.jpg)
This game is old a fairly popular and you can get stats for just about every military aircraft from WW1 to the early jet age.
I'm not saying that a miniature game can't work, I'm just trying to open options as there are hundreds of air-to-air combat game ideas out there that fill in the whole range from an RPG-like skill vs skill roll to full blown miniature combat.
I'm very open to a system that works no matter what form it takes. I really have only two criteria; it has to be configurable to adjustment to a bunch of different types of aircraft and pilot skills, it has to play into the immersion of flying an aircraft while being functionally different in play style from the core RPG system mechanics.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 13, 2023, 12:13:13 PM
As to the topic of an air-to-air RPG, firstly I'm not 100% what type of game you are imagining: historical, alternate history, or pulpy sci-fi, which would define what time of craft the PCs would be piloting and what types they'd be fighting.
As to the feel, I'm looking for a some what grounded pulp adventure feel. Media like High Road to China and Tails of the Golden Monkey come to mind. I want to focus on the post WW1 decade of aviation. Some late war aircraft second hand would be starter planes and the top tier equipment would be the stuff coming out in approximately 1930.
I like the idea of a aircraft map for a crewed airplane. I don't think that will work for me in particular because I intend to have individually piloted aircraft. However, that may be something I keep as a side idea for integrating larger aircraft into the game.
I'm currently looking at a minis game called Wings of War as a core flight mechanic inspiration, I'll see if I can get a copy of Down in Flames to try out. Do you know a place to get it?
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2023, 03:19:10 AM
I see a similiar problem for any Flying Vehicular RPG. When the machine is broken, it falls from the sky, goes boom and the PC inside is squished.
I fully understand this as a risk. I plan to handle this in a couple of ways. First, I want a low risk of PC death in the event of an aircraft loss. Second, I plan to have as part of the setting and mechanics that aircraft are easily acquired and easily repaired after a crash. Loss should be a looming threat however, otherwise it cheapens the risks. Finally, I envision giving players starting aircraft that they want to trade up from.
Quote from: BadApple on July 12, 2023, 02:05:31 PM
In short, I'm thinking of making an RPG where dog fighting aircraft is a major part of the theme. My idea is to have a separate minis game for resolving air combat and aerobatic shenanigans. It would be a completely different set of mechanics in part to give the feel of being a pilot vs being on foot. I'd like to do it where you could use print-n-play paper minis and PC skills would affect aircraft performance.
Would any of you find this type of RPG appealing? Any advice for making essentially a blended game work? Are there any pitfalls you'd point out for me to avoid?
If you make something like "Top Gun: the RPG", I'd snap it up w/o a second thought. A game that featured a pilot's life inside and outside the cockpit. Because "cockpit" is a beautiful word 8) Seriously though, I already have campaign ideas. It could be level or skill based. I'd like a level of complexity in the ruleset though, specifically regarding airborne maneuvers. Rules on how Gs affect the pilot, how dumping fuel affects speed/maneuverability, the different radar modes and how that coordinates with normal observation, the function of a wing, the tactics of pilot-to-pilot communication (because radar is trash for dog-fighting), incorporating modern air-to-air strategy, blahblahblah.
Then the other stuff for RP: how your GF cheated on you during deployment and your wife wants a new house off-base and your unit sucks and you're trying to make grade and your kids fkn hate you and you're too short for ALL this shit.
Make
THAT game and I'm in.
We used to use Snapshot and Mayday with Traveller back in the 1980s, and really enjoyed giving up a chunk of our role playing session for those games. We never moved on to Striker for bigger battles though.
I also used to play GDW's Air Superiority/Air Strike with a RAF buddy of mine, but he was a war gamer at heart and I could never get him to mix it with Twilight 2000.
Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 12:46:33 PM
If you make something like "Top Gun: the RPG", I'd snap it up w/o a second thought. A game that featured a pilot's life inside and outside the cockpit. Because "cockpit" is a beautiful word 8) Seriously though, I already have campaign ideas. It could be level or skill based. I'd like a level of complexity in the ruleset though, specifically regarding airborne maneuvers. Rules on how Gs affect the pilot, how dumping fuel affects speed/maneuverability, the different radar modes and how that coordinates with normal observation, the function of a wing, the tactics of pilot-to-pilot communication (because radar is trash for dog-fighting), incorporating modern air-to-air strategy, blahblahblah.
Then the other stuff for RP: how your GF cheated on you during deployment and your wife wants a new house off-base and your unit sucks and you're trying to make grade and your kids fkn hate you and you're too short for ALL this shit.
Make THAT game and I'm in.
How I'm interpreting what you're saying is very close to what I'm trying to do. The only big difference is the tech level and time frame. Instead of Gen 3 fighter jets, I want to focus on biplanes and early monoplanes. I very much want a game where what you do on the ground is just as important as what you do in the cockpit. I want a level of aviation development that makes air action fun. I also want enough depth that skills, choice of aircraft and equipment, and environmental factors all have an impact and cause different styles of play.
IDK about cheating girlfriend drama but I want to have a robust RP experience on the ground. If I do it right, You could have exactly that kind of play at your table and someone else could have a very different experience. I was thinking things like negotiations on jobs, fist fights in bars, search and rescue missions, etc. I want what you do on the ground to effect what you experience in the air and success in the cockpit results in more things on the ground being made available to the party.
One of the things I want to do is a bit of a blended action kind of thing. I love the idea of pilots using a makeshift strip in hostile territory to extract a VIP. Or maybe a mid air infiltration onto an airship. The idea is that a player could act as a leg and deal with the resistance area to negotiate a landing strip or board the blimp as a passenger so that they could lower the docking hook. Wing walking, parachuting, and barn storming are all things I love about the early days of aviation and I want to capture that feeling I had as a kid while watching that old footage.
Quote from: BadApple on July 14, 2023, 02:25:04 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 12:46:33 PM
If you make something like "Top Gun: the RPG", I'd snap it up w/o a second thought. A game that featured a pilot's life inside and outside the cockpit. Because "cockpit" is a beautiful word 8) Seriously though, I already have campaign ideas. It could be level or skill based. I'd like a level of complexity in the ruleset though, specifically regarding airborne maneuvers. Rules on how Gs affect the pilot, how dumping fuel affects speed/maneuverability, the different radar modes and how that coordinates with normal observation, the function of a wing, the tactics of pilot-to-pilot communication (because radar is trash for dog-fighting), incorporating modern air-to-air strategy, blahblahblah.
Then the other stuff for RP: how your GF cheated on you during deployment and your wife wants a new house off-base and your unit sucks and you're trying to make grade and your kids fkn hate you and you're too short for ALL this shit.
Make THAT game and I'm in.
How I'm interpreting what you're saying is very close to what I'm trying to do. The only big difference is the tech level and time frame. Instead of Gen 3 fighter jets, I want to focus on biplanes and early monoplanes. I very much want a game where what you do on the ground is just as important as what you do in the cockpit. I want a level of aviation development that makes air action fun. I also want enough depth that skills, choice of aircraft and equipment, and environmental factors all have an impact and cause different styles of play.
IDK about cheating girlfriend drama but I want to have a robust RP experience on the ground. If I do it right, You could have exactly that kind of play at your table and someone else could have a very different experience. I was thinking things like negotiations on jobs, fist fights in bars, search and rescue missions, etc. I want what you do on the ground to effect what you experience in the air and success in the cockpit results in more things on the ground being made available to the party.
One of the things I want to do is a bit of a blended action kind of thing. I love the idea of pilots using a makeshift strip in hostile territory to extract a VIP. Or maybe a mid air infiltration onto an airship. The idea is that a player could act as a leg and deal with the resistance area to negotiate a landing strip or board the blimp as a passenger so that they could lower the docking hook. Wing walking, parachuting, and barn storming are all things I love about the early days of aviation and I want to capture that feeling I had as a kid while watching that old footage.
Looks like you're moving in the right direction. We'll need weekly after-action reports on your progress!
Quote from: El-V on July 14, 2023, 02:05:35 PM
We used to use Snapshot and Mayday with Traveller back in the 1980s, and really enjoyed giving up a chunk of our role playing session for those games.
In a way, this is what I'm doing. I love the more detail oriented combat resolution of a dedicated combat system. I always found abstract combat resolution systems being a bit of a poor way to do things. So many of them feel too gamey and pull me out of the experience. With a minis game, I feel more in tune with the action.
Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 12:46:33 PM
If you make something like "Top Gun: the RPG", I'd snap it up w/o a second thought. A game that featured a pilot's life inside and outside the cockpit. Because "cockpit" is a beautiful word 8) Seriously though, I already have campaign ideas. It could be level or skill based. I'd like a level of complexity in the ruleset though, specifically regarding airborne maneuvers. Rules on how Gs affect the pilot, how dumping fuel affects speed/maneuverability, the different radar modes and how that coordinates with normal observation, the function of a wing, the tactics of pilot-to-pilot communication (because radar is trash for dog-fighting), incorporating modern air-to-air strategy, blahblahblah.
Then the other stuff for RP: how your GF cheated on you during deployment and your wife wants a new house off-base and your unit sucks and you're trying to make grade and your kids fkn hate you and you're too short for ALL this shit.
Make THAT game and I'm in.
It's definitely that kind of dichotomy that I love, that makes this kind of game special IMO. One thing I saw doing something similar in D&D is that some players loved the latter stuff so much, they started refusing to do the former! :o Which is one reason I think an organised military works so well for framing this; everyone knows that you can't refuse the bombing run just because your girlfriend's pregnant.
Quote from: S'mon on July 14, 2023, 04:31:05 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 12:46:33 PM
If you make something like "Top Gun: the RPG", I'd snap it up w/o a second thought. A game that featured a pilot's life inside and outside the cockpit. Because "cockpit" is a beautiful word 8) Seriously though, I already have campaign ideas. It could be level or skill based. I'd like a level of complexity in the ruleset though, specifically regarding airborne maneuvers. Rules on how Gs affect the pilot, how dumping fuel affects speed/maneuverability, the different radar modes and how that coordinates with normal observation, the function of a wing, the tactics of pilot-to-pilot communication (because radar is trash for dog-fighting), incorporating modern air-to-air strategy, blahblahblah.
Then the other stuff for RP: how your GF cheated on you during deployment and your wife wants a new house off-base and your unit sucks and you're trying to make grade and your kids fkn hate you and you're too short for ALL this shit.
Make THAT game and I'm in.
It's definitely that kind of dichotomy that I love, that makes this kind of game special IMO. One thing I saw doing something similar in D&D is that some players loved the latter stuff so much, they started refusing to do the former! :o Which is one reason I think an organised military works so well for framing this; everyone knows that you can't refuse the bombing run just because your girlfriend's pregnant.
Lived that sh*t :P I remember times I just stayed on base on weekends just to avoid the BS a GF had for me. Sometimes ... doing the work was the only thing that felt "normal", yeah? It'd be cool to have an rpg that understood the veteran perspective.
LIKE PHOENIX COMMAND!!!(https://media.tenor.com/0Qg_thlc33QAAAAC/sniper-saving.gif)
I am inclined to think that the skills it would take for the GM to run a good miniatures wargame combat are sufficiently different form those of running an RPG as to make it difficult to do both. Personally, if I want to play a wargame, I'll play a wargame and when I want to play an RPG, I'll play an RPG. Mixing the two creates the concern that I will not get my fix of either.
Quote from: Wisithir on July 14, 2023, 08:40:47 PM
I am inclined to think that the skills it would take for the GM to run a good miniatures wargame combat are sufficiently different form those of running an RPG as to make it difficult to do both. Personally, if I want to play a wargame, I'll play a wargame and when I want to play an RPG, I'll play an RPG. Mixing the two creates the concern that I will not get my fix of either.
YOU thinks.
They said "You can't tell a story AND play a game. Shit is impossible 'because SIMULATION". Then they got Apocalypse World. Then they got Burning Wheel.
You think RPG + Wargame can't be done. I think "When's the Kickstarter?"
Quote from: BadApple on July 14, 2023, 03:06:58 AMI like the idea of a aircraft map for a crewed airplane. I don't think that will work for me in particular because I intend to have individually piloted aircraft. However, that may be something I keep as a side idea for integrating larger aircraft into the game.
Take a look at the Soviet Tupolev TB-3. They actually flew this thing into combat. It's beautiful in that ugly early-30s way.
(https://i.imgur.com/8625ZYK.jpg)
QuoteI'm currently looking at a minis game called Wings of War as a core flight mechanic inspiration, I'll see if I can get a copy of Down in Flames to try out. Do you know a place to get it?
I was lucky to get the early box of Wings of War before they moved to miniatures. Much cheaper to buy that way. As for Down in Flames, I don't know of any WW1 set that is currently for sale. GMT is making it now and they are making expansions incredibly slowly (and the WW2 Pacific set is next in line anyway).
Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 02:32:35 PM
Looks like you're moving in the right direction. We'll need weekly after-action reports on your progress!
I'm still in very early development and research. It'll be a few months before I'm even at alpha testing. However, once I'm at a level of needing play testers, I will post news. I would love to run a series of one shots with as many different players as I can find and run a few mini campaigns with those that are attracted to the game play and world building. I would like to do both a series of in person games and some online.
Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 08:31:34 PM
Lived that sh*t :P I remember times I just stayed on base on weekends just to avoid the BS a GF had for me. Sometimes ... doing the work was the only thing that felt "normal", yeah? It'd be cool to have an rpg that understood the veteran perspective. LIKE PHOENIX COMMAND!!!
I am a vet. ;D
Quote from: Wisithir on July 14, 2023, 08:40:47 PM
I am inclined to think that the skills it would take for the GM to run a good miniatures wargame combat are sufficiently different form those of running an RPG as to make it difficult to do both. Personally, if I want to play a wargame, I'll play a wargame and when I want to play an RPG, I'll play an RPG. Mixing the two creates the concern that I will not get my fix of either.
I fully understand this concern. It's part of the reason for starting this thread. I'm all ears for feedback.
Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 14, 2023, 08:52:13 PM
Take a look at the Soviet Tupolev TB-3. They actually flew this thing into combat. It's beautiful in that ugly early-30s way.
Already on my list :D
Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 14, 2023, 08:52:13 PM
I was lucky to get the early box of Wings of War before they moved to miniatures. Much cheaper to buy that way. As for Down in Flames, I don't know of any WW1 set that is currently for sale. GMT is making it now and they are making expansions incredibly slowly (and the WW2 Pacific set is next in line anyway).
I want to do a print-and-play game for the minis part that those with a 3D printer could enhance with some creativity. Honestly, this may turn out to be a one book heartbreaker that a few collectors just put on their shelves as "cool but flawed."
What the hell, it's really about me doing a cool and fun side project anyway.
Quote from: BadApple on July 14, 2023, 09:29:13 PM
Quote from: Wisithir on July 14, 2023, 08:40:47 PM
I am inclined to think that the skills it would take for the GM to run a good miniatures wargame combat are sufficiently different form those of running an RPG as to make it difficult to do both. Personally, if I want to play a wargame, I'll play a wargame and when I want to play an RPG, I'll play an RPG. Mixing the two creates the concern that I will not get my fix of either.
I fully understand this concern. It's part of the reason for starting this thread. I'm all ears for feedback.
It may be more appealing to both the RPG and wargaming camps if a simplified alternative to either was also included. Not in the mood to bust out the miniatures today? Use the abstract/abridged combat rules. Something like Ashen Stars starship combat comes to mind. RPing getting in the way of dogfighting? See simple rules for pilot advancement. I am more inclined to want a smooth transition from RP to combat, provided it's not a strict military game were the application of violence is the only way to resolve the encounter. I can already play my RPG of choice and my wargame of choice, so I would be looking for a product that blends them together. As mentioned, Mekton did a good job of this, and I think something like Car Wars in the air could work, with wargame vehicle rules affecting vehicles and squishy meatbag RPG rules for affecting the pilots. I think another important aspect might be salvaging components and retrofitting them to ones own craft.
Quote from: Wisithir on July 14, 2023, 10:09:25 PM
It may be more appealing to both the RPG and wargaming camps if a simplified alternative to either was also included. Not in the mood to bust out the miniatures today? Use the abstract/abridged combat rules. Something like Ashen Stars starship combat comes to mind. RPing getting in the way of dogfighting? See simple rules for pilot advancement. I am more inclined to want a smooth transition from RP to combat, provided it's not a strict military game were the application of violence is the only way to resolve the encounter. I can already play my RPG of choice and my wargame of choice, so I would be looking for a product that blends them together. As mentioned, Mekton did a good job of this, and I think something like Car Wars in the air could work, with wargame vehicle rules affecting vehicles and squishy meatbag RPG rules for affecting the pilots. I think another important aspect might be salvaging components and retrofitting them to ones own craft.
I'm using Cepheus Engine as a core so a simplified fighter resolution system is already baked in. Still, I think it's the weakest part of Traveller/Cepheus.
I'm not looking at the game in just a military fashion, more of a private group of pilots for hire. I think a military campaign should be very easy to do but the idea of mercenaries, pilots for hire, or even air pirates should be just as viable as a theme for play. I mentioned before but some of my inspiration for world building would be High Road to China, Tales of the Golden Monkey, and similar movies, shows, and books.
Sounds like the "Crimson Skies" setting.
-Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar on July 14, 2023, 11:43:42 PM
Sounds like the "Crimson Skies" setting.
-Ed C.
It is an influence. I'm not big on the balkanization of the US aspect but the idea in general is one I like. Turn by turn, Crimson Skies was sluggish so I want a smoother and more intuitive flight combat system. I wouldn't be offended if someone saw my effort to make a spiritual successor to it.
For those that might be interested.
Down in Flames card game is available as a print-n-play from Wargames Vault. They have all the variations, including the WWI fighters and bombers. I need to get it printed and then talk some people into playing it with me a few times to see if it's going to be a viable start to what I want to do.
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/19861/Down-In-flames-WWI-Card-Game
I managed to download the rules for Wings of War for free just googling it. There's enough there to recreate the game if you are so inclined. (I don't have links but it was quick and easy.)
One of the things I want to do is usable game stats for a couple hundred aircraft. Biplanes, passenger planes, bombers, sea planes, the whole works. That also means I need to have a solid list of personal equipment to go with it as well.
I was digging through my games looking for air-to-air combat games and came across an old game from GDW (who did Traveller) called Blue Max. As it's from the 1980s, I played it a ton back in the day. The game uses hexes and each airplane has a single sheet that shows what maneuvers you can pick. Here's an example:
(https://i.imgur.com/WWouZHZ.jpg)
While not as cool as miniatures, having each plane described on a single sheet should make it easier to add new and unusual type craft to the game. Slower, less maneuverable craft could just be given a smaller range of possible movements. In a way this is sort of how X-Wing works.
That's all the air-to-air combat games I have that aren't super complicated. I hope that gives you plenty of options to find a system that works for your own game. If you'd like me to scan all the Blue Max maneuver sheets I have, PM me.
[NOTE] There is a reskin of this game released in the 2010s that uses a slightly different system and only has stats for six planes. So don't buy that one (although the map is much nicer).
Just use an old set of Ace of Aces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_of_Aces_(picture_book_game)
I personally love miniatures games whether they're skirmish groups, whole armies, or in between. So I also love it when they are combined with RPGs.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 12, 2023, 03:20:14 PM
LOL. I'm about 3/4 the way through the base rules of exactly that, a game designed around modern air combat. It's generated so much enthusiasm among my home groups ... that I've started modifying the rules for a sci-fi adventure game... :o. I have a pretty clear focus and idea of how the game should work, which might not fit what you are going for. Specifically, I have a TotM w/ diagram for the air combat part, just because I wanted to avoid having to play Battletech in the middle of Mechwarrior. But I'm happy to share (in general) what I've learn and worked through so far...
Forgive me if I'm a bit cheeky, but wouldn't "Modern air combat" mainly be like... firing a missile at a target a few miles away?
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on July 20, 2023, 03:14:06 PM
Forgive me if I'm a bit cheeky, but wouldn't "Modern air combat" mainly be like... firing a missile at a target a few miles away?
Modern air warfare is... complicated. The idea of a few aircraft duking it out with high speed aerobatics with modern aircraft is largely a Hollywood invention. In reality, it's a complex network of sensors, computers, jammers, SAM sites (some mobile, some stationary), a plethora of different types of aircraft with different tactical abilities, and pilots who need to know when to make a snap decision of their own and when to trust the voice in their ear who doesn't have time to explain the situation. In the end, Lt. "Maverick" Mitchell gets to be the hero because it's his ass in the ejection seat and he still is the guy pulling the trigger to fire the final shot. Dog fights are started at about 500 miles out and often long before the pilot is in the cockpit. Air superiority today is more about being able to coordinate airborne and surface anti-air assets to put the fighter pilot in the best place to get off the shot. This is the easy version.
Sure, sometimes it does come down to the F-15 using the 20mm machine gun and sometimes it's about herding enemy aircraft over a friendly SAM.
In WWI, fighter pilots would literally just jump in an airplane and go look to see if there was something to shoot at. Frequently, they would go up and not see anything. Just as frequently, they would discover that they didn't bring enough friends or ammo and ended up running for their lives when things got to hairy. Also, inter-war air mercenaries were a real thing. Post WWII, aircraft and air warfare had advanced to such a point that it wasn't feasible for a small mercenary company to maintain all the assets necessary to engage in air superiority combat.
I think that both ways it can make for a great game. However, they would be radically different in both session focus and campaign scope.
Quote from: BadApple on July 20, 2023, 03:47:08 PM
Dog fights are started at about 500 miles out and often long before the pilot is in the cockpit.
That isn't a Dog fight. Just ask ANY fighter pilot. Actually, if you ask any F-22 pilot they will tell you that if they end up in a dog fight many things have already gone VERY wrong.
Quote from: Scooter on July 20, 2023, 04:01:30 PM
That isn't a Dog fight.
Yes, I know. But it is a colloquialism most people will understand.
I keep forgetting most people think Top Gun is how modern air combat works
Quote from: Scooter on July 20, 2023, 04:38:38 PM
I keep forgetting most people think Top Gun is how modern air combat works
That's always the problem when talking about any sizable subject. Trying to straddle the chasm of being accurate and being understandable while being concise enough for a forum is difficult. That said, I don't want to put out bad info.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 12, 2023, 03:20:14 PM
Specifically, I have a TotM w/ diagram for the air combat part, just because I wanted to avoid having to play Battletech in the middle of Mechwarrior. But I'm happy to share (in general) what I've learn and worked through so far...
Just for the record, the new Mechwarrior Destiny RPG actually provides a full theater-of-the-mind rules for Mech/vehicle combat.
While they use a lot of "story gaming" sounding terms (it uses "take your narration" in place of "take your turn"), it's actually a bog standard RPG that is basically the old Legionnaire RPG (for Renegade Legion) with Battletech fluff on top.
Flying Mice games had a couple air combat rpgs. Wild Blue was the modern mercenary jet fighter game. Area 88 the rpg really. The group got a budget to buy their planes and support infrastructure. It runs on the Star Cluster 2 engine.
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on July 20, 2023, 03:14:06 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 12, 2023, 03:20:14 PM
LOL. I'm about 3/4 the way through the base rules of exactly that, a game designed around modern air combat. It's generated so much enthusiasm among my home groups ... that I've started modifying the rules for a sci-fi adventure game... :o. I have a pretty clear focus and idea of how the game should work, which might not fit what you are going for. Specifically, I have a TotM w/ diagram for the air combat part, just because I wanted to avoid having to play Battletech in the middle of Mechwarrior. But I'm happy to share (in general) what I've learn and worked through so far...
Forgive me if I'm a bit cheeky, but wouldn't "Modern air combat" mainly be like... firing a missile at a target a few miles away?
Well, not quite. To me, what makes an RPG interesting is a wide variety of choices and challenges. These could be mental, physical, or a combination of both. When you look at modern air combat (and by "modern" I mean from ~1970 to the present), there are a lot more challenges and choices than you would think. As someone who was not a military aviator, but who is highly invested in study-level military simulations, you would be surprised at how complicated even the act of identifying and locking a target can be. Now, complication can also be a serious negative for an RPG, especially when there is little payoff, so you have to be careful with what is worth simulating in your game. Let me give you an example of what I mean:
So, you are flying in your aircraft (let's say a fourth generation fighter like an F-16) at 10,000 ft. You have AWACS (Airborne Warning And Control System; another aircraft with a powerful radar) that can give you basic information about other aircraft in the area, but nothing too detailed. So, your AWACS declares that you have an inbound radar return 120 nautical miles away at 20,000 ft altitude, possible hostile. So now your choices begin. The bogie is too far away for your radar to pick them up, so you need to close the distance. Do you climb, reducing the energy advantage the bogie has by being higher than you, or do you stay lower and hope to confuse the bogie's radar by blending in with ground clutter? At 80 nautical miles, the bogie's radar registers on your RWR (Radar Warning Receiver). It's some variant of an SU-27 Flanker, definitely hostile, but you don't know which version and what it's carrying. Now you are 40 nm away. Your radar has pick up the "bandit" (now that we know it's hostile, it's not a bogie). Should you lock on with a single-target track, letting the bandit know you are about to fire? Or should you keep a "soft lock", which doesn't warn the enemy when the missile is in the air, but isn't as likely to hit? At 30 nm, you get launch authorization for the weapon (say an AIM-120 Amraam active radar missile), but do you fire, or try to get closer and increase your probability of kill? The bandit still has you soft locked, so is he getting closer to shoot, or did he already launch and you're flying right into his missile face first? At 20 nm you shoot. Now, do you "crank" and turn away from the bandit but still keep him in the cone of you radar to help guide the missile in flight (and increase its accuracy)? Or do you defend, turning completely away, because you want to be sure that you can escape any missile he shot? Now your RWR signals that an enemy missile is close and has turn on its internal radar! You turn completely away from it and fly away as fast as you can! But for how long? If you turn back too soon, the missile might still hit you. If you wait too long, the defending bandit might turn back towards you and now be chasing you. And, since you turned away, you don't have them on radar, so you need to find them again! Your AWACs declares "Merged!" That means you and the bandit are just a mile or two away! So you now stare out of the canopy, trying to see him before he sees you. The dogfight has started!
So, as you see, there are a lot of decisions with serious consequences as to how the fight plays out. The trick is to abstract them to the point where the game is smooth and fun to play, even for the non-specialist, but still retains the choices that make the combat exciting. Plus, there are a lot of concerns in air combat that are not usually mechanics for traditional RPGs. For example, getting information about your enemy. Most RPGs basically handwave this concern. You can see the orc, you know where he is, you attack. If the orc goes invisible, you get a penalty to your attack. That's all that's needed for most fantasy RPGs. But in air combat, information management needs to be a whole different set of mechanics. Actually seeing the enemy, whether electronically or with eyes, is far more difficult. Then, how much information can you gather in the moment before you must make a decision? Can you see their heading (aspect)? Their speed/energy state? What is normally just assumed in a normal RPG becomes something you need to have smooth, but interesting, mechanics for.
So, there's a whole host of interesting choices and challenges in modern air combat. The trick is making them accessible, clear, fun to play, mechanically sound, and engaging. Oh, and not too complex. No big task, eh?
Quote from: Scooter on July 20, 2023, 04:38:38 PM
I keep forgetting most people think Top Gun is how modern air combat works
Not if you had ever served on a carrier.
Quote from: BadApple on July 20, 2023, 03:47:08 PM
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on July 20, 2023, 03:14:06 PM
Forgive me if I'm a bit cheeky, but wouldn't "Modern air combat" mainly be like... firing a missile at a target a few miles away?
Modern air warfare is... complicated. The idea of a few aircraft duking it out with high speed aerobatics with modern aircraft is largely a Hollywood invention. In reality, it's a complex network of sensors, computers, jammers, SAM sites (some mobile, some stationary), a plethora of different types of aircraft with different tactical abilities, and pilots who need to know when to make a snap decision of their own and when to trust the voice in their ear who doesn't have time to explain the situation. In the end, Lt. "Maverick" Mitchell gets to be the hero because it's his ass in the ejection seat and he still is the guy pulling the trigger to fire the final shot. Dog fights are started at about 500 miles out and often long before the pilot is in the cockpit. Air superiority today is more about being able to coordinate airborne and surface anti-air assets to put the fighter pilot in the best place to get off the shot. This is the easy version.
Sure, sometimes it does come down to the F-15 using the 20mm machine gun and sometimes it's about herding enemy aircraft over a friendly SAM.
In WWI, fighter pilots would literally just jump in an airplane and go look to see if there was something to shoot at. Frequently, they would go up and not see anything. Just as frequently, they would discover that they didn't bring enough friends or ammo and ended up running for their lives when things got to hairy. Also, inter-war air mercenaries were a real thing. Post WWII, aircraft and air warfare had advanced to such a point that it wasn't feasible for a small mercenary company to maintain all the assets necessary to engage in air superiority combat.
I think that both ways it can make for a great game. However, they would be radically different in both session focus and campaign scope.
Very cool, sounds like some kind of card game where available assets get used to do point counter-point style things to get the advantage to make sure your asset ends up winning.
Quote from: BadApple on July 20, 2023, 03:47:08 PM
Quote from: Banjo Destructo on July 20, 2023, 03:14:06 PM
Forgive me if I'm a bit cheeky, but wouldn't "Modern air combat" mainly be like... firing a missile at a target a few miles away?
Modern air warfare is... complicated. The idea of a few aircraft duking it out with high speed aerobatics with modern aircraft is largely a Hollywood invention. In reality, it's a complex network of sensors, computers, jammers, SAM sites (some mobile, some stationary), a plethora of different types of aircraft with different tactical abilities, and pilots who need to know when to make a snap decision of their own and when to trust the voice in their ear who doesn't have time to explain the situation. In the end, Lt. "Maverick" Mitchell gets to be the hero because it's his ass in the ejection seat and he still is the guy pulling the trigger to fire the final shot. Dog fights are started at about 500 miles out and often long before the pilot is in the cockpit. Air superiority today is more about being able to coordinate airborne and surface anti-air assets to put the fighter pilot in the best place to get off the shot. This is the easy version.
Sure, sometimes it does come down to the F-15 using the 20mm machine gun and sometimes it's about herding enemy aircraft over a friendly SAM.
In WWI, fighter pilots would literally just jump in an airplane and go look to see if there was something to shoot at. Frequently, they would go up and not see anything. Just as frequently, they would discover that they didn't bring enough friends or ammo and ended up running for their lives when things got to hairy. Also, inter-war air mercenaries were a real thing. Post WWII, aircraft and air warfare had advanced to such a point that it wasn't feasible for a small mercenary company to maintain all the assets necessary to engage in air superiority combat.
I think that both ways it can make for a great game. However, they would be radically different in both session focus and campaign scope.
PUHleeez don't take the advice of these people. It's Trash RPG Design 101. Modern air-to-air combat can only be done properly with theater of the mind. You can't scale it with a map that makes any sense unless you're working with 1-second rounds - which could work but that requires additional 1-second tactical options. That adds complexity that the game needs. Nobody plays the current "dogfighting WW2" games because they lack verisimilitude and SUCK for it.
The indie crowd won't buy the game because they can't fk the planes. Most trad gamers won't buy it because they can't kill orcs with it. Target your segment of gamers longing for simulated modern air-to-air combat + the out-of-cockpit RP stuff. A real-ish game for people looking for a "Top Gun" experience.
It won't be "real". Real is carrier catapults breaking and $30m aircraft falling into the ocean. Seen it more than once with my time on a carrier. Plus how "some" pilots get off trying to break a plane and how the films were clearly impossible at points ("Oh, you're flying 100 feet apart? I fly between youz!")
Just do YOUR game - and make it complex enough to be engaging.
Quote from: Theory of Games on July 21, 2023, 03:17:34 PM
Just do YOUR game - and make it complex enough to be engaging.
I spent 10 years in the Navy, 4 years on a Nimitz class carrier. I have no desire to do a simulationist version of modern air warfare. Hell, I don't even want to do a beer and pretzels level RP of military life. I definitely see how a war game that uses the multilayered command and control of modern warfare could be fun, that would be way outside of the scope of what I want to do here. (I would even be willing to consult if there was a game developer that was interested in this.)
If someone wanted to take what I make and do a military campaign of a USN anti submarine patrol squadron, I want my game to be done well enough that the GM just needs a BMR and a EAWS study guide and they can get rolling. (BMR is Basic Military Requirements and EAWS is Enlisted Air Warfare Specialist for those with no US Navy knowledge.)
I want to capture the Indiana Jones or Doc Savage adventure feel with Post WW1 pilots and aircraft. I want just enough crunch to give the players the feel of excitement of being in an aerial predicament. Think arcade dog fighting, not flight sim dog fighting. I want a smart tactical player to be able to look at the pieces on the board and be able to come up with a 3-5 turn strategy to tail the enemy fighter but a normal player can just take it turn by turn and have fun.
Ultimately, the aerial combat/action part of the game is only a part of the over all RP experience I want to create. I would like to see a campaign done with this where it's literally Traveller set in 1920s SE Asia using a sea plane. I'd like to see another where the party is a small group of mercenary fighter pilots in Algeria. A third campaign would be fun if they were a team of search and rescue pilots in the Caribbean. Bar fights, shady offers, spies, criminals on the run, damsels in distress, challenges to air races to entertain the rich and influential are all how I see the game going. I want the players to feel like the main characters in a 1930s adventure film.
Quote from: BadApple on July 21, 2023, 05:15:00 PM
Quote from: Theory of Games on July 21, 2023, 03:17:34 PM
Just do YOUR game - and make it complex enough to be engaging.
I spent 10 years in the Navy, 4 years on a Nimitz class carrier. I have no desire to do a simulationist version of modern air warfare. Hell, I don't even want to do a beer and pretzels level RP of military life. I definitely see how a war game that uses the multilayered command and control of modern warfare could be fun, that would be way outside of the scope of what I want to do here. (I would even be willing to consult if there was a game developer that was interested in this.)
If someone wanted to take what I make and do a military campaign of a USN anti submarine patrol squadron, I want my game to be done well enough that the GM just needs a BMR and a EAWS study guide and they can get rolling. (BMR is Basic Military Requirements and EAWS is Enlisted Air Warfare Specialist for those with no US Navy knowledge.)
I want to capture the Indiana Jones or Doc Savage adventure feel with Post WW1 pilots and aircraft. I want just enough crunch to give the players the feel of excitement of being in an aerial predicament. Think arcade dog fighting, not flight sim dog fighting. I want a smart tactical player to be able to look at the pieces on the board and be able to come up with a 3-5 turn strategy to tail the enemy fighter but a normal player can just take it turn by turn and have fun.
Ultimately, the aerial combat/action part of the game is only a part of the over all RP experience I want to create. I would like to see a campaign done with this where it's literally Traveller set in 1920s SE Asia using a sea plane. I'd like to see another where the party is a small group of mercenary fighter pilots in Algeria. A third campaign would be fun if they were a team of search and rescue pilots in the Caribbean. Bar fights, shady offers, spies, criminals on the run, damsels in distress, challenges to air races to entertain the rich and influential are all how I see the game going. I want the players to feel like the main characters in a 1930s adventure film.
Sounds fun. I'll agree that the most important part of your game will always be the tone and milieu. If you have that down, and know exactly how you want the players to
feel while playing, the greatest challenge at that point is to find mechanics that help create that feeling (as opposed to contradicting it). Good luck! I'd think a game with the tone you've described would be really cool.