We used to use Snapshot and Mayday with Traveller back in the 1980s, and really enjoyed giving up a chunk of our role playing session for those games. We never moved on to Striker for bigger battles though.

I also used to play GDW's Air Superiority/Air Strike with a RAF buddy of mine, but he was a war gamer at heart and I could never get him to mix it with Twilight 2000.

Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 12:46:33 PM

If you make something like "Top Gun: the RPG", I'd snap it up w/o a second thought. A game that featured a pilot's life inside and outside the cockpit. Because "cockpit" is a beautiful word  Seriously though, I already have campaign ideas. It could be level or skill based. I'd like a level of complexity in the ruleset though, specifically regarding airborne maneuvers. Rules on how Gs affect the pilot, how dumping fuel affects speed/maneuverability, the different radar modes and how that coordinates with normal observation, the function of a wing, the tactics of pilot-to-pilot communication (because radar is trash for dog-fighting), incorporating modern air-to-air strategy, blahblahblah.

Then the other stuff for RP: how your GF cheated on you during deployment and your wife wants a new house off-base and your unit sucks and you're trying to make grade and your kids fkn hate you and you're too short for ALL this shit.

Make THAT game and I'm in.

How I'm interpreting what you're saying is very close to what I'm trying to do.  The only big difference is the tech level and time frame.  Instead of Gen 3 fighter jets, I want to focus on biplanes and early monoplanes.  I very much want a game where what you do on the ground is just as important as what you do in the cockpit.  I want a level of aviation development that makes air action fun.  I also want enough depth that skills, choice of aircraft and equipment, and environmental factors all have an impact and cause different styles of play.

IDK about cheating girlfriend drama but I want to have a robust RP experience on the ground.  If I do it right, You could have exactly that kind of play at your table and someone else could have a very different experience. I was thinking things like negotiations on jobs, fist fights in bars, search and rescue missions, etc.  I want what you do on the ground to effect what you experience in the air and success in the cockpit results in more things on the ground being made available to the party.

One of the things I want to do is a bit of a blended action kind of thing.  I love the idea of pilots using a makeshift strip in hostile territory to extract a VIP.  Or maybe a mid air infiltration onto an airship.  The idea is that a player could act as a leg and deal with the resistance area to negotiate a landing strip or board the blimp as a passenger so that they could lower the docking hook.  Wing walking, parachuting, and barn storming are all things I love about the early days of aviation and I want to capture that feeling I had as a kid while watching that old footage.

Quote from: BadApple on July 14, 2023, 02:25:04 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 12:46:33 PM

If you make something like "Top Gun: the RPG", I'd snap it up w/o a second thought. A game that featured a pilot's life inside and outside the cockpit. Because "cockpit" is a beautiful word  Seriously though, I already have campaign ideas. It could be level or skill based. I'd like a level of complexity in the ruleset though, specifically regarding airborne maneuvers. Rules on how Gs affect the pilot, how dumping fuel affects speed/maneuverability, the different radar modes and how that coordinates with normal observation, the function of a wing, the tactics of pilot-to-pilot communication (because radar is trash for dog-fighting), incorporating modern air-to-air strategy, blahblahblah.

Then the other stuff for RP: how your GF cheated on you during deployment and your wife wants a new house off-base and your unit sucks and you're trying to make grade and your kids fkn hate you and you're too short for ALL this shit.

Make THAT game and I'm in.

How I'm interpreting what you're saying is very close to what I'm trying to do.  The only big difference is the tech level and time frame.  Instead of Gen 3 fighter jets, I want to focus on biplanes and early monoplanes.  I very much want a game where what you do on the ground is just as important as what you do in the cockpit.  I want a level of aviation development that makes air action fun.  I also want enough depth that skills, choice of aircraft and equipment, and environmental factors all have an impact and cause different styles of play.

IDK about cheating girlfriend drama but I want to have a robust RP experience on the ground.  If I do it right, You could have exactly that kind of play at your table and someone else could have a very different experience. I was thinking things like negotiations on jobs, fist fights in bars, search and rescue missions, etc.  I want what you do on the ground to effect what you experience in the air and success in the cockpit results in more things on the ground being made available to the party.

One of the things I want to do is a bit of a blended action kind of thing.  I love the idea of pilots using a makeshift strip in hostile territory to extract a VIP.  Or maybe a mid air infiltration onto an airship.  The idea is that a player could act as a leg and deal with the resistance area to negotiate a landing strip or board the blimp as a passenger so that they could lower the docking hook.  Wing walking, parachuting, and barn storming are all things I love about the early days of aviation and I want to capture that feeling I had as a kid while watching that old footage.

Looks like you're moving in the right direction. We'll need weekly after-action reports on your progress!

Quote from: El-V on July 14, 2023, 02:05:35 PM
We used to use Snapshot and Mayday with Traveller back in the 1980s, and really enjoyed giving up a chunk of our role playing session for those games.

In a way, this is what I'm doing.  I love the more detail oriented combat resolution of a dedicated combat system.  I always found abstract combat resolution systems being a bit of a poor way to do things.  So many of them feel too gamey and pull me out of the experience.  With a minis game, I feel more in tune with the action.

Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 12:46:33 PM
If you make something like "Top Gun: the RPG", I'd snap it up w/o a second thought. A game that featured a pilot's life inside and outside the cockpit. Because "cockpit" is a beautiful word  Seriously though, I already have campaign ideas. It could be level or skill based. I'd like a level of complexity in the ruleset though, specifically regarding airborne maneuvers. Rules on how Gs affect the pilot, how dumping fuel affects speed/maneuverability, the different radar modes and how that coordinates with normal observation, the function of a wing, the tactics of pilot-to-pilot communication (because radar is trash for dog-fighting), incorporating modern air-to-air strategy, blahblahblah.

Then the other stuff for RP: how your GF cheated on you during deployment and your wife wants a new house off-base and your unit sucks and you're trying to make grade and your kids fkn hate you and you're too short for ALL this shit.

Make THAT game and I'm in.

It's definitely that kind of dichotomy that I love, that makes this kind of game special IMO. One thing I saw doing something similar in D&D is that some players loved the latter stuff so much, they started refusing to do the former!  Which is one reason I think an organised military works so well for framing this; everyone knows that you can't refuse the bombing run just because your girlfriend's pregnant.

Quote from: S'mon on July 14, 2023, 04:31:05 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 12:46:33 PM
If you make something like "Top Gun: the RPG", I'd snap it up w/o a second thought. A game that featured a pilot's life inside and outside the cockpit. Because "cockpit" is a beautiful word  Seriously though, I already have campaign ideas. It could be level or skill based. I'd like a level of complexity in the ruleset though, specifically regarding airborne maneuvers. Rules on how Gs affect the pilot, how dumping fuel affects speed/maneuverability, the different radar modes and how that coordinates with normal observation, the function of a wing, the tactics of pilot-to-pilot communication (because radar is trash for dog-fighting), incorporating modern air-to-air strategy, blahblahblah.

Then the other stuff for RP: how your GF cheated on you during deployment and your wife wants a new house off-base and your unit sucks and you're trying to make grade and your kids fkn hate you and you're too short for ALL this shit.

Make THAT game and I'm in.

It's definitely that kind of dichotomy that I love, that makes this kind of game special IMO. One thing I saw doing something similar in D&D is that some players loved the latter stuff so much, they started refusing to do the former!  Which is one reason I think an organised military works so well for framing this; everyone knows that you can't refuse the bombing run just because your girlfriend's pregnant.

Lived that sh*t  I remember times I just stayed on base on weekends just to avoid the BS a GF had for me. Sometimes ... doing the work was the only thing that felt "normal", yeah? It'd be cool to have an rpg that understood the veteran perspective. LIKE PHOENIX COMMAND!!!

I am inclined to think that the skills it would take for the GM to run a good miniatures wargame combat are sufficiently different form those of running an RPG as to make it difficult to do both.  Personally, if I want to play a wargame, I'll play a wargame and when I want to play an RPG, I'll play an RPG. Mixing the two creates the concern that I will not get my fix of either.

Quote from: Wisithir on July 14, 2023, 08:40:47 PM
I am inclined to think that the skills it would take for the GM to run a good miniatures wargame combat are sufficiently different form those of running an RPG as to make it difficult to do both.  Personally, if I want to play a wargame, I'll play a wargame and when I want to play an RPG, I'll play an RPG. Mixing the two creates the concern that I will not get my fix of either.

YOU thinks.

They said "You can't tell a story AND play a game. Shit is impossible 'because SIMULATION". Then they got Apocalypse World. Then they got Burning Wheel.

You think RPG + Wargame can't be done. I think "When's the Kickstarter?"

Quote from: BadApple on July 14, 2023, 03:06:58 AMI like the idea of a aircraft map for a crewed airplane.  I don't think that will work for me in particular because I intend to have individually piloted aircraft.  However, that may be something I keep as a side idea for integrating larger aircraft into the game.

Take a look at the Soviet Tupolev TB-3. They actually flew this thing into combat. It's beautiful in that ugly early-30s way.

QuoteI'm currently looking at a minis game called Wings of War as a core flight mechanic inspiration, I'll see if I can get a copy of Down in Flames to try out.  Do you know a place to get it?

I was lucky to get the early box of Wings of War before they moved to miniatures. Much cheaper to buy that way. As for Down in Flames, I don't know of any WW1 set that is currently for sale. GMT is making it now and they are making expansions incredibly slowly (and the WW2 Pacific set is next in line anyway).

Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 02:32:35 PM
Looks like you're moving in the right direction. We'll need weekly after-action reports on your progress!

I'm still in very early development and research.  It'll be a few months before I'm even at alpha testing.  However, once I'm at a level of needing play testers, I will post news.  I would love to run a series of one shots with as many different players as I can find and run a few mini campaigns with those that are attracted to the game play and world building.  I would like to do both a series of in person games and some online.

Quote from: Theory of Games on July 14, 2023, 08:31:34 PM
Lived that sh*t  I remember times I just stayed on base on weekends just to avoid the BS a GF had for me. Sometimes ... doing the work was the only thing that felt "normal", yeah? It'd be cool to have an rpg that understood the veteran perspective. LIKE PHOENIX COMMAND!!!

I am a vet.   

Quote from: Wisithir on July 14, 2023, 08:40:47 PM
I am inclined to think that the skills it would take for the GM to run a good miniatures wargame combat are sufficiently different form those of running an RPG as to make it difficult to do both.  Personally, if I want to play a wargame, I'll play a wargame and when I want to play an RPG, I'll play an RPG. Mixing the two creates the concern that I will not get my fix of either.

I fully understand this concern.  It's part of the reason for starting this thread.  I'm all ears for feedback.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 14, 2023, 08:52:13 PM
Take a look at the Soviet Tupolev TB-3. They actually flew this thing into combat. It's beautiful in that ugly early-30s way.

Already on my list 

Quote from: hedgehobbit on July 14, 2023, 08:52:13 PM
I was lucky to get the early box of Wings of War before they moved to miniatures. Much cheaper to buy that way. As for Down in Flames, I don't know of any WW1 set that is currently for sale. GMT is making it now and they are making expansions incredibly slowly (and the WW2 Pacific set is next in line anyway).

I want to do a print-and-play game for the minis part that those with a 3D printer could enhance with some creativity.  Honestly, this may turn out to be a one book heartbreaker that a few collectors just put on their shelves as "cool but flawed."

What the hell, it's really about me doing a cool and fun side project anyway.

Quote from: BadApple on July 14, 2023, 09:29:13 PM

Quote from: Wisithir on July 14, 2023, 08:40:47 PM
I am inclined to think that the skills it would take for the GM to run a good miniatures wargame combat are sufficiently different form those of running an RPG as to make it difficult to do both.  Personally, if I want to play a wargame, I'll play a wargame and when I want to play an RPG, I'll play an RPG. Mixing the two creates the concern that I will not get my fix of either.

I fully understand this concern.  It's part of the reason for starting this thread.  I'm all ears for feedback.

It may be more appealing to both the RPG and wargaming camps if a simplified alternative to either was also included. Not in the mood to bust out the miniatures today? Use the abstract/abridged combat rules. Something like Ashen Stars starship combat comes to mind. RPing getting in the way of dogfighting? See simple rules for pilot advancement. I am more inclined to want a smooth transition from RP to combat, provided it's not a strict military game were the application of violence is the only way to resolve the encounter. I can already play my RPG of choice and my wargame of choice, so I would be looking for a product that blends them together. As mentioned, Mekton did a good job of this, and I think something like Car Wars in the air could work, with wargame vehicle rules affecting vehicles and squishy meatbag RPG rules for affecting the pilots. I think another important aspect might be salvaging components and retrofitting them to ones own craft.

Quote from: Wisithir on July 14, 2023, 10:09:25 PM
It may be more appealing to both the RPG and wargaming camps if a simplified alternative to either was also included. Not in the mood to bust out the miniatures today? Use the abstract/abridged combat rules. Something like Ashen Stars starship combat comes to mind. RPing getting in the way of dogfighting? See simple rules for pilot advancement. I am more inclined to want a smooth transition from RP to combat, provided it's not a strict military game were the application of violence is the only way to resolve the encounter. I can already play my RPG of choice and my wargame of choice, so I would be looking for a product that blends them together. As mentioned, Mekton did a good job of this, and I think something like Car Wars in the air could work, with wargame vehicle rules affecting vehicles and squishy meatbag RPG rules for affecting the pilots. I think another important aspect might be salvaging components and retrofitting them to ones own craft.

I'm using Cepheus Engine as a core so a simplified fighter resolution system is already baked in.  Still, I think it's the weakest part of Traveller/Cepheus.

I'm not looking at the game in just a military fashion, more of a private group of pilots for hire.  I think a military campaign should be very easy to do but the idea of mercenaries, pilots for hire, or even air pirates should be just as viable as a theme for play.  I mentioned before but some of my inspiration for world building would be High Road to China, Tales of the Golden Monkey, and similar movies, shows, and books.

Sounds like the "Crimson Skies" setting.

-Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar on July 14, 2023, 11:43:42 PM
Sounds like the "Crimson Skies" setting.

-Ed C.

It is an influence.  I'm not big on the balkanization of the US aspect but the idea in general is one I like.  Turn by turn, Crimson Skies was sluggish so I want a smoother and more intuitive flight combat system.  I wouldn't be offended if someone saw my effort to make a spiritual successor to it.

For those that might be interested.

Down in Flames card game is available as a print-n-play from Wargames Vault.  They have all the variations, including the WWI fighters and bombers.  I need to get it printed and then talk some people into playing it with me a few times to see if it's going to be a viable start to what I want to do.
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/19861/Down-In-flames-WWI-Card-Game


I managed to download the rules for Wings of War for free just googling it.  There's enough there to recreate the game if you are so inclined.  (I don't have links but it was quick and easy.)

One of the things I want to do is usable game stats for a couple hundred aircraft.  Biplanes, passenger planes, bombers, sea planes, the whole works. That also means I need to have a solid list of personal equipment to go with it as well.