Let me disclose my biases and experience before I discuss C&C and my thoughts.

I'm an old school guy.  I am currently running a 1e game, and have been playing and/or running 1e since about 1999, after a dozen year layoff.  I also ran a B/X campain most of 2004.

However, I've also run 3.x, for 3+ years (2001-2004), and continue to play it occasionally.  

I see positives and negatives to both 1e/B/X and 3.x.  I'm quite happy playing 3.x, but I won't ever run 3.x D&D again, for various reasons.

Now, as to C&C.  I picked up the PHB and M&T book, along with Gygax's Castle Zygag.  After reading the C&C books, I decided against ever running it, though I'd probably play in a game at a Con, or if someone local decided to take up the Castle Keeper mantle and run with it.

As a whole, I think it's a good game, albeit a mish-mash between the two points of view, but doesn't come off as being as cohesive as either.  Like many things designed by committee, it's a compromise at best, lacking the perceived integration of d20 and most of the old-school flavor.

I see C&C trying to incorporate some of the upsides (which is subjective) of d20 with the old-school class based system.  For example, it uses the d20  positive AC system, which I see as a good thing.  But then I look at the save system, and can only say, "WTF?".  I much prefer both the old school class-based save system and the d20 ability based to the Rule of Primes or whatever it is.

The way I see it, the cost in terms of money and time to get everyone at the table up and running with C&C is greater than the "gains" made by incorporating positive AC and other things from d20 into the game.

In my opinion, old-school D&D isn't so broken that it needs to be fixed beyond the obligatory house rules.  So, if I want old-school flavor, I'll pick up the old books and play it.  On the other hand, if I want to play D&D with lots of freedom in character creation and current support, I'd go with 3.5.  

To me, C&C isn't a better old-school D&D than old-school D&D itself.  Likewise, it doesn't do the d20 stuff better than 3.5, so I don't see a need to run it.

CZ, as for your kid, I recommend the Moldvay or Mentzer Basic book as a starting point, followed by the Rules Cyclopedia.  Or, give True 20 a shot, if you want to go a different route.

Quote from: Freke... As a whole, I think it's a good game, albeit a mish-mash between the two points of view, but doesn't come off as being as cohesive as either.  

I think I'm an 'old school' guy too (started playing in 1979, and RC D&D is probably my favourite single RPG book ever published).  

But IME, I don't find C&C to be a 'mish-mash' at all.  It's pretty 'cohesive' -- moreso than pre-3e versions of D&D IMO.  It uses the same mechanic (roll 1d20 + add bonuses, beat TN/AC) for pretty much everything -- even moreso than D&D 3e.  Unlike pre-3e D&D, it doesn't have a bunch of different subsytems for different actions.  And unlike 3e, it sticks to class archetypes, and doesn't get bogged down with feats, AoOs, etc.

Quote from: Freke..
...  But then I look at the save system, and can only say, "WTF?".  I much prefer both the old school class-based save system and the d20 ability based to the Rule of Primes or whatever it is.

I think that the saving throw system is a work of genius.  It's very simple (roll 1d20 + level + ability mod = beat TN or fail).  Moreover, it makes every ability score important, thereby ensuring that there are no obvious 'dump stats' for C&C characters.

Quote from: Freke...
CZ, as for your kid, I recommend the Moldvay or Mentzer Basic book as a starting point, followed by the Rules Cyclopedia.  Or, give True 20 a shot, if you want to go a different route.

Well, I love the Moldvay Basic set and the RC, so I'm not going to argue with you about that.  (And I like True 20 too.)

Hell, I use the RC with my C&C stuff -- no problem.  I just think you're selling C&C short.

Quote from: AkrasiaI just think you're selling C&C short.

:idunno:
Different strokes and all that.

Quote from: FrekeDifferent strokes and all that.

Indeed.  I certainly understand why one would prefer the RC and/or 3e.  The 'incoherent' claim just struck me as incorrect.  But whatever.
:wizard:

Quote from: FrekeIn my opinion, old-school D&D isn't so broken that it needs to be fixed beyond the obligatory house rules.  So, if I want old-school flavor, I'll pick up the old books and play it.  On the other hand, if I want to play D&D with lots of freedom in character creation and current support, I'd go with 3.5.  

To me, C&C isn't a better old-school D&D than old-school D&D itself.  Likewise, it doesn't do the d20 stuff better than 3.5, so I don't see a need to run it.

That's pretty much my feelings in a nutshell, it's also why I steer clear of Hackmaster.  If I want old D&D, I'll go dig out my books.

Just wondering... wasn't Rob Kuntz the guy who took on a job to write some stuff for Necromancer (City of Brass? Maze of Zayene?) and then flaked out for one reason or another?

Quote from: DackeJust wondering... wasn't Rob Kuntz the guy who took on a job to write some stuff for Necromancer (City of Brass? Maze of Zayene?) and then flaked out for one reason or another?

Rob Kuntz wrote the 'City of Brass' (based on the original D&D setting from his campaign, I think) for Kenzer's 'Hackmaster' game.  I don't have it, but I have heard that it is quite good (despite being for Hackmaster).  I don't think that the upcoming Necro version has anything to do with Kuntz.

I don't know anything about the Maze of Zayene.

Quote from: AkrasiaRob Kuntz wrote the 'City of Brass' (based on the original D&D setting from his campaign, I think) for Kenzer's 'Hackmaster' game.  I don't have it, but I have heard that it is quite good (despite being for Hackmaster).  I don't think that the upcoming Necro version has anything to do with Kuntz.

I don't know anything about the Maze of Zayene.

Yes, Kuntz wrote the Maze of Zayene modules. The City of Brass for HackMaster is pretty good (despite being for HackMaster, indeed! Hmmph!), but it was only partially written by Kuntz. Regardless, that City of Brass is pretty cool. Necromancer's long-in-the-making City of Brass has nothing to do with Kuntz (the CoB first appeared in the Arabian Nights tales).

As for the dust-up between Kuntz and Necromancer, it's water long under the bridge.

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