I've always felt a little weird about ressurection/raise dead type spells, abilities, or effects in any game. Yes, it sucks to lose a character and can fuck up a storyline, but on the other hand it always seemed like a bit of a cop out to me and can serve to diminish the threat of PC death.
Anyone flat out ban it? Refuse it as a PC? Love it? Hate it?
I don't like it unless there is a good story reason for why it is so rare. I have a strong distaste for mechanic reasons to why it is rare or undesirable, i.e. ex penalty.
I ban it in my game because it offends the gods.
Beyond early levels, it seems like nothing except for a TPK is permanent. It kinda bugs me since there is less risk.
I some times run low to moderate magic which cuts down on it, especially for resurrection. Raise Dead has reasonable limits on its own which fantasy assassins would take into account (I had one group always take the heart of their victims).
Other than that though, I haven't done much to stop it. The spells in Arcana Evolved make the cost/time big enough that it would still suck, that might something I'll add in the future.
I really don't like how D&D does it. It feels way too arbitrary and mechanical. I've had games where the PCs were getting raised all the time, and it really ruined the feel for me. I like how Buffy does it, where you can come back in some way that makes sense story wise - a ghost, miracle in the ER, brain downloaded into a robot, the Powers That Be decide to toss you back out of hell - whatever. You pay for it depending on how long it is until you come back.
For other games, there really isn't a come back from the dead mechanic. If you don't want to have to bring PCs back from the dead, don't kill them.
I don't really dig it. One of my favorite moments was when there was a group arguement over raising a PC and we finally decided to do a "speak with dead." His response was that he "liked it here and we could fuck off."
If you're constantly dying, something is wrong. I like the idea that "those who live to run away, live to run another day." If the players aren't prepared to either cut their losses and run, or lose the character, the game seems to lose some of the seriousness.
I like it 'cause it's COOL! PCs aren't just everyday people, they're powerful heroes. At that level, the fighter can take on a hundred goblins, the mage can kill with a single phrase, the rogue can sneak into a guarded palace in broad daylight, the druid can alter the weather and pull down lightning from the sky. Skeletons can be animated, characters can fly or teleport, they can ask questions to the very gods and get responses.
It's a cool power. I'm all in favor of letting PCs keep and use their cool powers. All the justifications for taking them away (teleport, divination, and raise dead seem the most common forbidden abilities) just seem to be flimsy excuses for DMs who don't want to allow the PCs the ability to forge their own stories. These abilities EMPOWER the PCs, and too many DMs think that means they're losing power and control in the process... but PCs don't need to be carefully controlled, they should be UNLEASHED in their full, absurd, powerful GLORY!
A world writen with the assumption that all weathly and powerful beings have constant access to Raise Dead, divinations, teleports, etc., takes on a whole different flavor - and I think it tastes GOOD. :D
I've had characters I've played react to it oddly before but as a player and as a DM it doesn't bother me a bit.
I think raise dead is quite different from teleport and divination. It doesn't just give the players more options, it's like performing with a safety net.
Someone who does something daring who is Really risking their life is braver than someone who knows that they can always hit restart.
Quote from: Name LipsA world writen with the assumption that all weathly and powerful beings have constant access to Raise Dead, divinations, teleports, etc., takes on a whole different flavor - and I think it tastes GOOD. :D
My biggest problem with it in D&D is that the default setting (or rather the kinds of settings I like) are NOT written with those assumptions in mind. They are written to be like a fantasy version of medieval earth, then these super powers are tossed in and it's assumed everything will work pretty much the same.
And if you write the setting to the abilities then you get something that's well, unlike anything. And I'm big on genre emulation. I want my games to be like something, other than just themselves. Otherwise it's all too self-referential and the players don't have a good way to measure things in the world. I'd much rather have rules made to the setting than setting made to the rules. Rules aren't (to me) very important.
Quote from: Name LipsSilly rant
Really ... my distaste for rez is speaking as a player. As a GM I don't care.
As a DM , I always run low-magic , low- wealth campaigns.
I never had a ressurection happen ; either because of the lack of power or the lack of money.
I'm not really against it , though ; The players need to go the whole nine yards and more to pull it off , if possible , so usually they skip it and grab the 3d6.
Not to mention , my games don't tend to reach the required levels.
When I read this topic title, I thought it meant "How do your characters feel when they are brought back to life?" :)
Never came up in the low magic worlds I like to run, but I'm in the "good characters like the afterlife, and bad characters find that their new bosses won't let them go back" school.
As a DM I have had players choose to not be ressurrected (though after having been raised once already), and as a player I have done the same (under the same conditions).
As for availability: In Aquerra it is not readily available, but can be gained under certain circumstances. Usually, I use resurrection as a way to move the story forward.
For example: The Urn of Osiris (http://aquerra.wikispaces.com/Magical+Item+-+Urn+of+Osiris)*, which one of my players dubbed "the plot hook machine".
* Yes, I stole the name from Buffy. I already was using the Egyptian gods, so it works.
As others have said, returning dead characters to life kind of takes away any tension that might be created by death-defying actions. Further, to me, it's way too "magical." Were spells like these readily available, the entire civilization which had access to them would be different. In D&D, it's not. In Eberron, it is a bit, but I don't think it takes it far enough.
I don't like it as a GM because it does not convey the atmosphere I prefer for my games. I don't particularly care about it as a player, but it seems kind of "over the top."
Quote from: CyberzombieWhen I read this topic title, I thought it meant "How do your characters feel when they are brought back to life?" :)
Peckish. :D
Quote from: cranberryPeckish. :D
I would imagine, yes. :)
I like the concept of easy resurrection magic -- and of simple ways to expand lifespan, like every fucking edition *except* 3e has had. It does, however, mean that the world is going to be totally different than the real world.
Just take succession in kingdoms -- the eldest son of a king could reasonably expect to succeed when he was in his prime (25-35) because his dad would most likely kick the bucket then. Not so in a fantasy world with D&D magic. You could expect something like the Realm in Exalted, where the Empress ruled for 750 years or so before she disappeared. While most rulers wouldn't manage to avoid getting killed permanently that long, they could easily expect reigns of a hundred years or more with potions of longevity and raise dead spells.
I'd really like to see a setting that logically followed from the abilities available in D&D, but it would be so alien it's hard to even imagine. :)
Quote from: ElidiaI don't really dig it. One of my favorite moments was when there was a group arguement over raising a PC and we finally decided to do a "speak with dead." His response was that he "liked it here and we could fuck off."
:D Love it
I personally don't like the idea. I think it is used too often and to easily there is not enough penalty for resurrection and it becomes a saftey net that takes something away from the game.
That being said I have always tried to run a game that is fun for my players... they all love their characters and would prefer to run the same one for an entire campaign, so I allow it and everyone still seems to have fun.
Quote from: Dire WolfI personally don't like the idea. I think it is used too often and to easily there is not enough penalty for resurrection and it becomes a saftey net that takes something away from the game.
That being said I have always tried to run a game that is fun for my players... they all love their characters and would prefer to run the same one for an entire campaign, so I allow it and everyone still seems to have fun.
Wouldn't it make more sense to change the rules so they aren't getting killed, but just incapacitated? If you think about it and change 'dead and need a raise' to 'badly wounded and need powerful healing' things don't need to change much at all mechanically.
Quote from: MaddmanWouldn't it make more sense to change the rules so they aren't getting killed, but just incapacitated? If you think about it and change 'dead and need a raise' to 'badly wounded and need powerful healing' things don't need to change much at all mechanically.
I think that's an excellent idea. There's actually a mechanic in Conan where one can spend an action point (or whatever it might be called--book's not handy) to be "left for dead." It's a great option rather than having characters brought back to life, and it fits into the narrative structure of heroic fantasy (and action movies, for that matter).
I'm OK with resurrection magic, but I prefer it to be a conscious inclusion. I don't like as a rule games where it is present but doesn't have any societal repercussions. A lot of good ideas already presented, I'd add making the resurrection an adventure in and of itself to the list. If raising the dead requires an encounter with Cerebus that explains why frequent resurrections haven't messed with the culture. :)
I generally ban it in my games, or at least have RP reasons as for why it is really rare. As a player I generally refuse to return from the afterlife if someone casts it on my dead character.
Not fond of it. Actually, I don't mind something like Orpheus tried to do, but a quick spell (even with XP costs) is too easy. Walmart should not be stocking "1-ups".
I actually generally like the 3E mechanics, but the magic is a bit high in a few places, this being one of them.
I like it when its well done via story, I don't like it when the setting/story ignores what people would actually do with the power.
Assasination in a standard D&D campaign involves destroying the persons soul if you don't actually want them coming back. Yet, assassins exist that just stab/poison people. It just doesn't mesh.
I haven't come up with a generic way of having people return in a game. It always has to be story specific or it just feels cheap to me.
I like resurrection as a player more than I like the artificiality of "Hey here's a new guy in the dungeon who could sure use rescuing. Guess what? He lost his whole team and should join with you!"
But I'd rather have varying power levels in my games too, as it's more realistic. I don't use this when I run a game, as I don't know a player who'd like it except for me. If I'm fifth level and I die, I'd love to come back as a 1st level character! :)
I my current group, I don't think we have ever had anyone resurrected. I like it that way. IMO resurrection should only happen via divine magic or extremely powerfull arcane magic. So unless you have a very powerfull cleric or mage or if you are in real good with the gods resurrection won't happen in our group.
Personally as a player I don't mind if my characters die, but if they do it's cool if the GM works with me to make them go out in style.:D
Quote from: McrowI my current group, I don't think we have ever had anyone resurrected. I like it that way. IMO resurrection should only happen via divine magic or extremely powerfull arcane magic. So unless you have a very powerfull cleric or mage or if you are in real good with the gods resurrection won't happen in our group.
Personally as a player I don't mind if my characters die, but if they do it's cool if the GM works with me to make them go out in style.:D
hmmm, head exploding fumbled firebreath spell...That's one toasty Kolba!
Bill
Quote from: HinterWelthmmm, head exploding fumbled firebreath spell...That's one toasty Kolba!
Bill
Yeah, fumbling a fire breath spell is bad! Well it made the session interesting for me atleast. I think he was at 5th level or something like that @ the time. Ohh well, it's not every day you get to see a Kolbas head blow up like framing balloon.
Quote from: McrowYeah, fumbling a fire breath spell is bad! Well it made the session interesting for me atleast. I think he was at 5th level or something like that @ the time. Ohh well, it's not every day you get to see a Kolbas head blow up like framing balloon.
Well, I do have a rep to maintain you know. How else am I supposed to reinforce that I am a killer GM? :p
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltWell, I do have a rep to maintain you know. How else am I supposed to reinforce that I am a killer GM? :p
Bill
more like evil bastard GM!! :eek:
just kidding.
Quote from: MaddmanWouldn't it make more sense to change the rules so they aren't getting killed, but just incapacitated? If you think about it and change 'dead and need a raise' to 'badly wounded and need powerful healing' things don't need to change much at all mechanically.
I heartily agree. I'm not comfortable with most of the raise mechanisms
Chacal
How do I feel about getting brought back to life? Better, usually.
There was a recent OotS script that highlighted that being brought back to life isn't that easy.
So far, in the campaigns I DM, there have been three deaths. Only one was temporary, and this one because it would truly have fucked up the campaign too much. (I had just started DMing and didn't get a good grasp of how to evaluate challenges for the party, so I let die in what was just supposed to be a diversion a PC that had just been given a divine quest by an avatar of her goddess... Alright, divine intervention presto! It was that or stopping the campaign just after it began...)
Both others happened in more controlled situations so the PCs were on their own if they wanted to raise their fallen friend -- and it turned out in both case, they had no mean to do it, unsurprisingly.
I run a high power, high magic, high level campaign setting (Well, for the Pre-Winter War setting, post is a whole new story) where resurrection CAN be done. Temples often use speak with dead to discover if the dead can be brought back to life, or if they are willing.
However, we also have the spell "Lay to Rest" which drew a lot of reviewer flack for making it so the victim of the spell could not be raised, resurrected, reincarnated, without the interference of a god. "Too mean" I think it was called.
BUT, in my campaign, dying is the least of your worries.
Case in point: The party gets in a MASSIVE fight with some powerful foes, who escape. The combat ressurection spell was used already, so that was no help, but the party's mage was snatched by the bad guy.
Who tricked the wizard into thinking it was his friend resurrecting him.
When the party tried True-Rez... Wah wah wah...
Psionics, brain washing, etc, and WHAM! Here came the NPC at the party, screaming: "YOU LEFT ME BEHIND TO DIE, FUCKERS!" and the fight was on.
Plus, you have to look at this...
Is the character a worshipper of good standing with the God? No? Then the god will be appealed to for Rez and go: "I don't know this asswipe. I'm not rezzing him, and he won't even swear to serve me. I'm going back to poker."
The thing is, many players and GM's read the rules, and want to completely eliminate the human element. They don't want a GM, they want a walking talking NWN server.
Go ahead, give a simple experiment a try. Send the cleric player a note stating that his God has sent him a dream where he will no longer provide his gentle grace to the "heretics" that the cleric insists on wasting his power to protect, heal, and ressurect.
Watch your players reactions, and tell me what goes on.
It depends.
In a popcorn D&D game, I include it as a convenience and nobody thinks too hard about the consequences.
In a stock fantasy game it either doesn't exist, is extraordinarily difficult or has massive drawbacks.
Other thoughts:
1. Drawing a bit from Exalted, I would postulate a world where heroes who are slain are offered a chance at ressurection and immortality by ancient evil beings. In return, the hero agrees to further their will in the world. I don't see many PCs doing this, but it could be a story hook.
2. Raising the dead draws a demon into the world and binds it to the life of the target. Slaying the demon kills the person, killing the person slays the demon. This may be something the players do, or it may be something they stumbled upon. The moral quandary involved in raising the dead would certainly increase. I can imagine PCs hunting down a demon and imprisoning it in order to save the life of their comrade, but this type of epic adventure seems adequate to have raising available to heroic characters like the PCs while making it undesirable to the world at large.
3. Those who are raised are marked, either spiritually or physically, and suffer severe social stigma. Perhaps people distrust those who have visited the lands of the dead, perhaps they are said to bring misfortune or the ability to curse those around them, perhaps raising the dead is considered unnatural or against the will of the gods. If the person is spiritually marked, there must be a way to detect it that is not too complicated (they don't cast reflections or have no shadow). The reason for the mark can be anything, from a toll paid to the ferryman on the river Styx to the idea that everytime you are brought back a piece of you is left behind. Few people will want to be raised in a culture where raising the dead is severely stigmatized.
I'll have to think of some more. hmmm.....
I had a pacifist character who was killed - and the GM made him stand before the god of the dead. The god (whoever it was - can't 'member) sent me back to mock my beliefs, and told me that for one year I had to send one soul to him per day or he would take an innocent person for that day's kill... starting with those closest and dearest to me. Amazing roleplaying experience... my character ended up a sociopath cold-blooded killer after sending 365 people to their doom. It started with people who deserved it... but towards the end he really didn't care who he sent. Went from Lawful Good to Lawful Evil in a game year.
When he finally died again - long after all of this - he was put in a special hell where he was tormented for all time by the souls of those people he killed. Ironic...
and yet other people would winge that the DM was railroading their character. :rolleyes:
In Book of Jalan, all magic is temporary unless you 'seal' it with a permanent loss of your magic potential. Raising the dead is fairly easy, but keeping them alive isn't.
-mice
Quote from: Bagpussand yet other people would winge that the DM was railroading their character. :rolleyes:
Yeah - at first I was pissed, but I saw it as an excellent roleplaying opportunity... dealing with being forced to violate morals, building a hatred for myself that bled to all around me... insanity and coping... O the fun misery!
My fantasy campaigns tend to be low-magic, so priests capable of casting Resurrection tend to be on the rare side... and even if the PCs can find one, there's no guarantee that he or she will agree to do it...
9 out of 10 times, I will refuse resurrection for my PC. The 10th time is when a GM really tries to make my character part of the campaign and not a random stand-in. Then, there's usually a reason to come back beyond "I want to kill the one that killed me", plus I "reward" the DM for his/her work.
Quote from: VarajReally ... my distaste for rez is speaking as a player. As a GM I don't care.
Oh... ditto. Though I really like maddman's idea of re-phrasing death and resurrection to badly wounded, comatose and in need of powerful healing.
I LOVE getting brought back to life! I think it rocks, and I get more and more happy every time it happens. My characters like it too. :pimpdahoe:
As a DM I fall mostly on the side of very rare resurrections. I may have allowed it once or twice in my years of running games. My feeling is that if PC's don't think that death is the "end", they could start playing sloppy and part of the danger the characters face is minimized.
I believe resurrections should only happen when it furthers the story - and it should be treated like the miracle it would be.
Quote from: King_StannisI believe resurrections should only happen when it furthers the story - and it should be treated like the miracle it would be.
This is how I feel about the subject as well. I'm playing a 13th lvl cleric right now, and our group is now free to take more risks because I can bring em back (although they'll hafta pony up the loot for it), and it's become just another task, or "role" of my cleric...although it has made the group even more protective of me :)
I would prefer for the ability to return the dead to life to be more on par with granting wishes....rare, wonderous, and not always guaranteed...maybe even potentially hazardous. I think that along with being difficult, expensive, and rare, the ability to bring back the dead should entail a (albeit small) risk of actually bringing back maybe an undead spirit or even a demon/devil instead of the soul that actually belongs to the corpse.
Quote from: SigmundI would prefer for the ability to return the dead to life to be more on par with granting wishes....rare, wonderous, and not always guaranteed...maybe even potentially hazardous. I think that along with being difficult, expensive, and rare, the ability to bring back the dead should entail a (albeit small) risk of actually bringing back maybe an undead spirit or even a demon/devil instead of the soul that actually belongs to the corpse.
I concur. I also think there should be some physical toll on the cleric - he should at the very least fall into a slumber for a time - perhaps a week or two.
Haveing been dead a few times I can say that I LOVE being brought back to life. Being dead is boring.
Quote from: King_StannisI concur. I also think there should be some physical toll on the cleric - he should at the very least fall into a slumber for a time - perhaps a week or two.
I'ld rather it not be available at all to my cleric than have players pressuring me into using a spell that is going to enforce downtime on my PC.
Quote from: Bagpussand yet other people would winge that the DM was railroading their character. :rolleyes:
If the player could have his character refuse either the offer, or refrain from completing it- there would be no railroading involved.
Railroading has nothing to do with presenting choices, it has to do with forcing them.
I don't think that bringing a dead character back to life kills the game in anyway, but of course there are several ways of doing it. If there is a cleric (or equivalent) in the group he could cast a raise dead spell (or equivalent) and that has been done in my campaign on several occasions.
Actually, I created an epic campaign where the gods played an active role in the story and plot-line, and the players knew that there were a big chance that their characters could be brought back to life, at least once. However, it came with a price, and some where not prepared to pay that price. Death should not kill a story, but bringing back dead characters shouldn't kill the tension and excitement either.
- Brek
Quote from: CleanCutRogueI had a pacifist character who was killed - and the GM made him stand before the god of the dead. The god (whoever it was - can't 'member) sent me back to mock my beliefs, and told me that for one year I had to send one soul to him per day or he would take an innocent person for that day's kill... starting with those closest and dearest to me. Amazing roleplaying experience... my character ended up a sociopath cold-blooded killer after sending 365 people to their doom. It started with people who deserved it... but towards the end he really didn't care who he sent. Went from Lawful Good to Lawful Evil in a game year.
When he finally died again - long after all of this - he was put in a special hell where he was tormented for all time by the souls of those people he killed. Ironic...
Did the DM clear that by you ahead of time? 'Cause if not it seems like something of a dick move.
Quote from: gleichmanIf the player could have his character refuse either the offer, or refrain from completing it- there would be no railroading involved.
Railroading has nothing to do with presenting choices, it has to do with forcing them.
Right his choice was between him killing someone or the God killing a loved one. Not much of a choice, hence the railroading. Personally its the sort of railroading I would like. It's not like we don't get railroaded in real life every now and again by the situation we find ourselves in.
Got no problem with raising, as long as it's done with style. In fact, in my CORE setting the high priests of the god of treasures, riches and materialism make quite a good summ with it.
Once in awhile I like it a lot, in the course of regular D&D I hate it. I'm fond of things like clones and simulacrums, or finding a scroll to it, but I wish it was never in the hands of PCs, a hell of a lot more rare and expensive than it is, and all in all less accessable.
The RPing angle of it has always felt like a cop-out for an overused mechanic, but there isn't another easy way to handle it quite often.