I made the following question on reddit and, unsurprisingly, got the usual reddit response, so I'd like to make it here to discuss:
In games such a b/x, usually there is a Treasure Type indicating how much treasure value the monsters has with them (if any), sometimes it could be expressed in hoards the monsters has in its lair (if it's a monster that only appears in its lair), but what about those monsters you find in the wild, do they have a bag somewhere with the money in it? What about their weapons if the monster is humanoid, are they taken within the equation? What about body parts? Yes, I am pretty sure more than one of your players is a freak who likes disemboweling kobold scales skin to sell on the market, how do you adjudicate value into it? I am looking to check on to everyone's POV.
In general I believe in hordes. If the Hobgoblins are fresh from a raid they might have something, otherwise the tribe keeps all their treasure in one spot where it can be guarded. Its not as if there is a store down the way where they can spend their loot. Its just easier.
Quote from: Lixuniverse on March 12, 2025, 08:54:10 PMI made the following question on reddit and, unsurprisingly, got the usual reddit response, so I'd like to make it here to discuss:
In games such a b/x, usually there is a Treasure Type indicating how much treasure value the monsters has with them (if any), sometimes it could be expressed in hoards the monsters has in its lair (if it's a monster that only appears in its lair), but what about those monsters you find in the wild, do they have a bag somewhere with the money in it? What about their weapons if the monster is humanoid, are they taken within the equation? What about body parts? Yes, I am pretty sure more than one of your players is a freak who likes disemboweling kobold scales skin to sell on the market, how do you adjudicate value into it? I am looking to check on to everyone's POV.
If I don't have anything specific in mind, I assign a coin value (in raw coins or useful stuff) for the group of monsters defeated. Maybe 3D6 copper for a few kobolds, or 3D6 gold for a group of orcs.
They also have whatever equipment they'd usually be carrying if the characters want to loot their gear. Poor 1st level characters might want to pick up a scimitar, shield or handful of arrows.
Copper, Silver, or Gold coins; and sometimes gemstones.
Of course, other items may be found. Especially more common items. But the above items, function as the coins of the realm.
Well for 6E adventures:
You find this long glistening purple rod, its round and soft. You remember seeing the orc barista Steffani' using it on his boyfriend Crawerkins. You are sure there is some deep primary magic.
In other editions:
You find a sharp sword, written on the inside of the hilt is "echo" in elvish.
I don't often use those kind of treasure tables, so my answer might not be relevant, but:
Most of my antagonists tend to be humanoid, if not just human, so they have their gear and some walking-around money (I usually just come up with a plausible dice roll for how much). Monsters have nothing on them and probably nothing in their lairs, unless they're intelligent or there happens to be the corpse of a previous meal in there.
Yeah, I'm a skinflint. :P There's a reason I don't use RAW XP-for-gold.
More seriously, I put a premium on verisimilitude, so if my players get access to major treasure, there has to be a reason why it is wherever they find it. Elite NPCs will carry the magic items they might expect to need for whatever they're doing, but they'll keep treasures they don't actually use in a safe place. Large hauls of coin are only going to come from storehouses, tombs, treasuries or other places where people might feasibly store a lot of currency. If you want to get a lot of money off of an NPC in the wild, you better rob a tax collector.
EDIT: I have to say also that my players aren't usually in that much of a hurry to strip search every corpse they leave behind. It might be because money is neither hugely important nor easily obtainable in my games, or maybe I've successfully trained my players not to be murder-hobos.
I did up some base line treasure suggestions for The Arcane Confabulation, great unfinished campaign guide.
Personal Effects
The following lists detail the goods that might be found on a person of a given status, met in town or on the road. They are useful for determining what people have on them when they are robbed or just for general knowledge.
Peasant (Status 1 - 7)
1- 10 Copper Coins
Bone Tools, and Buttons
Wooden Tools
Wool Clothing
Leather Belt, Boots, Jacket
Bandit (Status 0 - 10)
1 - 10 Copper Coins
1 - 2 Silver Coins
Bone Buttons
Steel Spear and Arrow Heads
Steel Dagger
Wool Clothing
Leather Boots
Yeoman (Status 5 - 15)
2 - 20 Copper Coins
1 - 5 Silver Coins
Steel or Bronze Tools
Wool and Linen Clothing
Leather Shoes or Boots
Cart or Wheel Barrow
Work Horses, Cows, Asses
Man At Arms (Status 8 - 12)
1 - 10 Copper Coins
1 - 5 Silver Coins
Wool Clothing
Steel Armour and Weapons
Leather Boots or Shoes
Leather Jack
Tradesman (Status 8 - 12)
2 - 20 Copper Coins
1 - 10 Silver Coins
Woolen and Linen Clothing
Leather Boots or Shoes
Brass Buttons and Buckles
Asses or Oxen
Cart
Merchant or Master (Status 15 - 19)
2 - 20 Copper Coins
2 - 20 Silver Coins
1 - 10 Gold Coins
Fur Lined Cloak
Gold and Bejewelled Buttons and Buckles
Embroidered Linen and Silk Clothing
Outlandish Hat
Carts, Boats, Ships
Porters, Guards
Oxen and Draft Horses
Knight (Status 15 - 20)
2 - 20 Copper Coins
2 - 20 Silver Coins
1 - 5 Gold Coins
Brass Buckles and Buttons
Wool and Linen Clothing
Leather Boots
Steel Armour and Weapons
War Horse, Riding Horses
Squire, Lady, Retainers
Lord Personal Effects (Status 20 - 30)
2 - 20 Copper Coins
2 - 20 Silver Coins
2 - 20 Gold Coins
Fur Lined Cloak
Gold and Bejewelled Buttons and Buckles
Embroidered Linen and Silk Clothing
Gold Embossed Steel Weapons and Armour
War Horse, Riding Horses
Servants, Ladies, Retainers, Pages
Poor Hoard
Suitable for Bandit Chiefs and Landed Knights
1 - 1000 Copper Coins
1 - 100 Silver Coins
1 - 10 Gold Coins
Cheap Jewellery
Semi Precious Stones
Uncut Gems
Brass Buttons
Leather Boots
Swords
Axes
Spears
Shirts of Mail
Steel Helmets
Steel Headed Arrows
Rich Hoard
Suitable for Nobles and Dragons
1 - 10000 Copper Coins
1 - 1000 Silver Coins
1 - 100 Gold Coins
Fine Jewellery
Cut Gems
Gold Buttons
Brass Buckles
Fur Lined Cloaks
Silk and Linen Clothes
Bronze or Steel Breast Plates
Steel Helmets
What Has He Got In His Pockets?
The following list of oddments is provided lest one think that the only interesting thing in a victim's possession is mere coinage.
Acorns
01 Apple
02 Bag of Dried Fruit
03 Bag of Beans
04 Bag of Carrots
05 Bag of Herbs
06 Ball of Yarn
07 Bare Old Bone
08 Beautiful Portrait
09 Beautiful Prayer
10 Bit of Horn
11 Boiled Egg
12 Bloodstained Stone Knife
13 Booklet Half Full of Notes
14 Bone Amulet
15 Bone Flute
16 Bone Toothpick
17 Bottle of Ink
18 Brass Buttons
19 Brass Belt Buckle
20 Brass Knuckles
21 Brass Mirror
22 Charcoal Sticks
23 Clay Cup
24 Colourful Feathers
25 Copper Talisman
26 Crude Figurine
27 Cured Pig's Bladder
28 Cryptic Note
29 Dog Eared Scripture
30 Filet of Smoked Fish
31 Flask of Oil
32 Flask of Wine
33 Flint and Steel
34 Fresh Berries
35 Fruit Tart
36 Goose Feathers
37 Graduated Brass Rod
38 Handful of Beans
39 Handkerchief
40 Hard Cheese
41 Hard Sausage
42 Holy Writ
43 Hunk of Bread
44 Illegible Letter
45 I Owe You Note
46 Iron Nails
47 Ivory Chess Piece
48 Ivory Portrait
49 Jar of Jam
50 Jar of Pickled Beets
51 Jar of Pickled Cucumbers
52 Jar of Sauerkraut
53 Knit Cap
54 Knotted Length of Sheep Intestine
55 Large Brass Key
56 Leaden Talisman
57 Leather Gloves
58 Leather Thong
59 Lump of Soap
60 Meat Pie
61 Onion
62 Needle and Thread
63 Page of Novel
64 Passable Sketch
65 Pewter Amulet
66 Pewter Goblet
67 Pig's Foot
68 Plain Gold Ring
69 Packet of Dried Herbs
70 Pot of Grease
71 Pouch of Dried Fruit
72 Ribbon and Straw Doll
73 Roast Chicken Leg
74 Royal Edict
75 Sack of Nuts
76 Sack of Pebbles
77 Sack of Seeds
78 Sad Poem
79 Sand Filled Sock
80 Silken Kerchief
81 Small Brass Horn
82 Small Brass Key
83 Short Copper Wire
84 Small Silvered Mirror
85 Small Knife
86 Smoked Fish
87 Sodden Rag
88 Spindle
89 Stale Biscuit
90 Steel Arrowhead
91 Steel Scraper
92 Stone Arrowhead
93 String of Beads
94 Strip of Dried Meat
95 Strip of Horn
96 Strip of Leather
97 Strip of Smoked Meat
98 Smooth Stones
99 Spotted Knuckle Bones
100 Sticky Jam Sandwich
101 String
102 Tallow Candle
103 Thimble
104 Tied Sheep Intestine
105 Tinder Box
106 Tiny Gold Nugget
107 Turnip
108 Unintelligible Treasure Map
109 Vial of Cordial
110 Vial of Holy Water or Oil
111 Wanted Poster
112 Wax Candle
113 Wolf's Tooth
114 Wooden Ball
115 Wooden Bowl
116 Wooden Flute
I use minimalist detail which can be readily translated into standard equipment/treasure in most cases. It's basically an extension of the idea that gems come in convenient 5, 10, 25, 50, 100, etc. values. For example, you find a bag of nuts, dried fruit, and way bread that translates to 2 trail rations. Then the players can focus on the specifics when interested and just record the 2 trail rations when not.
I do this to keep my and the players record keeping minimal while not totally going abstract. Also, I'm using the silver standard, not gold, and starting characters often stay quite poor for some time, so that even finding some spare lamp oil or a rope is enjoyed. Finally, I'm prone to using non-standard, often deficient, or even mildly cursed magic. For example, you might find a "healing potion" that smells a little strong, with a side effect of making the character drunk for an hour. Not everything is like this (because I don't want to track all the hidden effects that closely), but there's enough stuff like this that when I put in something neutral, it makes them a little cautious. I might have a "healing potion" that smells a little spoiled, with no side effects other than making the character react to the sour taste.
Ultimately, treasure, like everything else in the game, is geared to producing the feeling of being in the setting. To know how you want to do treasure, first ask yourself how you want the setting to feel. Then determine what you can do with treasure (and be consistent and maintain) that will produce that. Then that's your answer, not what any of us do.
Quote from: Ruprecht on March 12, 2025, 09:11:14 PMIn general I believe in hordes. If the Hobgoblins are fresh from a raid they might have something, otherwise the tribe keeps all their treasure in one spot where it can be guarded. Its not as if there is a store down the way where they can spend their loot. Its just easier.
This brings up an interesting point. If the Hobgoblins don't have some sort of civilization somewhere where their purloined gold and silver can be used... why do they even bother to steal it?
Some bling for the boss and ladies? Sure. But if their entire civilization is essentially tribal bandits/raiders, then I'd be expecting them to prioritize food, booze, fine clothing, weapons, tools they'd find useful, slaves, etc. over coinage they'd never be able to spend.
In a way, you could really play up the nature of such a society by presenting the aftermath of a raid where all the food stores have been taken along with missing villagers and the dead guards stripped of their maille and weapons, but silver and gold coins left strewn on the floors of destroyed homes.
Currency is one of the hallmarks of civilization; facilitating trade and exchange of services and goods. Something that cares not for coinage marks the raiders as antithetical to civilization.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 13, 2025, 09:26:10 AMQuote from: Ruprecht on March 12, 2025, 09:11:14 PMIn general I believe in hordes. If the Hobgoblins are fresh from a raid they might have something, otherwise the tribe keeps all their treasure in one spot where it can be guarded. Its not as if there is a store down the way where they can spend their loot. Its just easier.
This brings up an interesting point. If the Hobgoblins don't have some sort of civilization somewhere where their purloined gold and silver can be used... why do they even bother to steal it?
Some bling for the boss and ladies? Sure. But if their entire civilization is essentially tribal bandits/raiders, then I'd be expecting them to prioritize food, booze, fine clothing, weapons, tools they'd find useful, slaves, etc. over coinage they'd never be able to spend.
In a way, you could really play up the nature of such a society by presenting the aftermath of a raid where all the food stores have been taken along with missing villagers and the dead guards stripped of their maille and weapons, but silver and gold coins left strewn on the floors of destroyed homes.
Currency is one of the hallmarks of civilization; facilitating trade and exchange of services and goods. Something that cares not for coinage marks the raiders as antithetical to civilization.
You make a good point. Native Americans (to the lefty's hoping to take this out of context I am not saying Native Americans are monsters in any way shape or form, just that their society had no need for money) had no use for money but lots of use for weapons and blankets. They could take cash to buy stuff at a later date but that takes trust that I don't think existed between the trade partners.
Monsters might really want to trade for better arms and weapons. Perhaps bribes to bigger tribes and of course leaders want bling to show their importance and in case they ever have to abandon their tribe and flee for their lives.
Quote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2025, 09:42:08 AMQuote from: Chris24601 on March 13, 2025, 09:26:10 AMQuote from: Ruprecht on March 12, 2025, 09:11:14 PMIn general I believe in hordes. If the Hobgoblins are fresh from a raid they might have something, otherwise the tribe keeps all their treasure in one spot where it can be guarded. Its not as if there is a store down the way where they can spend their loot. Its just easier.
This brings up an interesting point. If the Hobgoblins don't have some sort of civilization somewhere where their purloined gold and silver can be used... why do they even bother to steal it?
Some bling for the boss and ladies? Sure. But if their entire civilization is essentially tribal bandits/raiders, then I'd be expecting them to prioritize food, booze, fine clothing, weapons, tools they'd find useful, slaves, etc. over coinage they'd never be able to spend.
In a way, you could really play up the nature of such a society by presenting the aftermath of a raid where all the food stores have been taken along with missing villagers and the dead guards stripped of their maille and weapons, but silver and gold coins left strewn on the floors of destroyed homes.
Currency is one of the hallmarks of civilization; facilitating trade and exchange of services and goods. Something that cares not for coinage marks the raiders as antithetical to civilization.
You make a good point. Native Americans (to the lefty's hoping to take this out of context I am not saying Native Americans are monsters in any way shape or form, just that their society had no need for money) had no use for money but lots of use for weapons and blankets. They could take cash to buy stuff at a later date but that takes trust that I don't think existed between the trade partners.
Monsters might really want to trade for better arms and weapons. Perhaps bribes to bigger tribes and of course leaders want bling to show their importance and in case they ever have to abandon their tribe and flee for their lives.
There's a trope in old western movies of the unscrupulous trader who runs guns illegally to the hostile tribe. Could make for a good adventure scenario, where the PCs have to figure out that the only way to turn back the goblin invasion is to stop the human baddies from arming them.
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 13, 2025, 11:54:38 AMQuote from: Ruprecht on March 13, 2025, 09:42:08 AMQuote from: Chris24601 on March 13, 2025, 09:26:10 AMQuote from: Ruprecht on March 12, 2025, 09:11:14 PMIn general I believe in hordes. If the Hobgoblins are fresh from a raid they might have something, otherwise the tribe keeps all their treasure in one spot where it can be guarded. Its not as if there is a store down the way where they can spend their loot. Its just easier.
This brings up an interesting point. If the Hobgoblins don't have some sort of civilization somewhere where their purloined gold and silver can be used... why do they even bother to steal it?
Some bling for the boss and ladies? Sure. But if their entire civilization is essentially tribal bandits/raiders, then I'd be expecting them to prioritize food, booze, fine clothing, weapons, tools they'd find useful, slaves, etc. over coinage they'd never be able to spend.
In a way, you could really play up the nature of such a society by presenting the aftermath of a raid where all the food stores have been taken along with missing villagers and the dead guards stripped of their maille and weapons, but silver and gold coins left strewn on the floors of destroyed homes.
Currency is one of the hallmarks of civilization; facilitating trade and exchange of services and goods. Something that cares not for coinage marks the raiders as antithetical to civilization.
You make a good point. Native Americans (to the lefty's hoping to take this out of context I am not saying Native Americans are monsters in any way shape or form, just that their society had no need for money) had no use for money but lots of use for weapons and blankets. They could take cash to buy stuff at a later date but that takes trust that I don't think existed between the trade partners.
Monsters might really want to trade for better arms and weapons. Perhaps bribes to bigger tribes and of course leaders want bling to show their importance and in case they ever have to abandon their tribe and flee for their lives.
There's a trope in old western movies of the unscrupulous trader who runs guns illegally to the hostile tribe. Could make for a good adventure scenario, where the PCs have to figure out that the only way to turn back the goblin invasion is to stop the human baddies from arming them.
This is also a good reason for the tribal bandits to keep their stolen coins in a horde because they're only keeping it to trade to the arms dealer it has no individual value to them.
By contrast, I would expect human bandits who could go to towns they aren't recognized in to spend freely would care more about seeing the loot distributed amongst their number after each raid.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 13, 2025, 01:59:35 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on March 13, 2025, 11:54:38 AMThere's a trope in old western movies of the unscrupulous trader who runs guns illegally to the hostile tribe. Could make for a good adventure scenario, where the PCs have to figure out that the only way to turn back the goblin invasion is to stop the human baddies from arming them.
This is also a good reason for the tribal bandits to keep their stolen coins in a horde because they're only keeping it to trade to the arms dealer it has no individual value to them.
By contrast, I would expect human bandits who could go to towns they aren't recognized in to spend freely would care more about seeing the loot distributed amongst their number after each raid.
A lot of historical bandits were basically part-timers, and would have had homes and families they went back to in the winter or when the pickings were bad. It sounds crazy, but in the premodern era an isolated rural community might be functionally untouchable by law enforcement, especially since in backwater and border areas, the minor gentry who would be responsible for justice were often the ringleaders of bandit gangs themselves.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 13, 2025, 09:26:10 AMQuote from: Ruprecht on March 12, 2025, 09:11:14 PMIn general I believe in hordes. If the Hobgoblins are fresh from a raid they might have something, otherwise the tribe keeps all their treasure in one spot where it can be guarded. Its not as if there is a store down the way where they can spend their loot. Its just easier.
This brings up an interesting point. If the Hobgoblins don't have some sort of civilization somewhere where their purloined gold and silver can be used... why do they even bother to steal it?
I figure because they understand it's valuable to other races. They might trade with drow or giants or whatnot. They'd probably prefer useable goods, like weapons and armor, but would grab gold and gems as well.
Dragons notoriously hoard gold even though it has little value to them. It's valuable to others and a status symbol for the dragon.
In a Chivalry and Sorcery game, I was given the task of spending the supply budget on food, so I bought a cart full of turnips. The other players were a bit mad but they were the most nutrition for the money. What I didn't tell them was that I burried a couple casks of ale and wine under the turnips. When the orcs showed up, I shouted "hey, you guys like booze?" Turned out they did, very frustrated GM. :D
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 13, 2025, 02:19:09 PMA lot of historical bandits were basically part-timers, and would have had homes and families they went back to in the winter or when the pickings were bad. It sounds crazy, but in the premodern era an isolated rural community might be functionally untouchable by law enforcement, especially since in backwater and border areas, the minor gentry who would be responsible for justice were often the ringleaders of bandit gangs themselves.
Always remember the ballad of bold Captain Cully who robbed from the poor because they were weaker than him and gave to the rich so they wouldn't destroy him.
Quote from: ForgottenF on March 13, 2025, 02:19:09 PMA lot of historical bandits were basically part-timers, and would have had homes and families they went back to in the winter or when the pickings were bad. It sounds crazy, but in the premodern era an isolated rural community might be functionally untouchable by law enforcement, especially since in backwater and border areas, the minor gentry who would be responsible for justice were often the ringleaders of bandit gangs themselves.
Following up on this earlier comment, it occurs to me there's a fun scenario in that, too:
Some duke hires your players to neutralize a gang of bandits preying on travelers along the high road near the borders of his domain. So the players head up there and march off into the hills expecting to find the bandit lair. After days or weeks of wandering around in the wilderness, getting soaked to the bone and fending off random monster attacks, they start to get suspicious. They haven't seen hide nor hair of the bandits the whole time. When they ask local peasants, they get information that wastes their time only to turn out to be inaccurate. The lord of the manor doesn't seem to care about this outlaw band. What's going on?
Well it turns out there is no bandit lair, The local peasants
are the bandit gang. Every once in a while they put down their pitchforks and take a few days camping out by the road to supplement their income. The manor lord arms them, leads the expeditions and takes a small tithe of the proceeds. They know the PCs are here, and they can afford to just give up banditry until they leave. What now? Who's going to believe a bunch of landless mercenaries against the word of one of the duke's vassals? No one in this close-knit rural community is going to testify against their neighbors at the behest of an outsider. You haven't got the numbers for this many prisoners and you might get into trouble if you go around killing off everyone in the district. There definitely are solutions, but the players will have to get creative.
I confess, I typically abstract loot out to special items, currency, and "Loot Worth X" which players can cash out when they get back to town. With the exception of some intentionally tight sequences like a long dungeon crawl or a game with a general survival-horror feel, players rarely if ever actually want to pick up and use weapons or items from a monster, so it's usually better to handwave it and to change over to more precise accounting when that's part of the tone I am aiming for.