Inspired a bit by weirdguy564's thread RPG class: the "not a Jedi, but it's a Jedi" (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/rpg-class-the-not-a-jedi-but-its-a-jedi/), I'm wondering about what's interesting to Star Wars fans. To me, the power-armor-using timespace-warping knights described in the thread sound interesting, but they have almost no overlap with Star Wars or the Jedi. I would definitely not say "it's a Jedi" about them.
That brings to mind some of my games set in the Star Wars universe. Personally, I hate the prequel movies and especially the Jedi as portrayed there - over things like pulling kids out of their families as toddlers to go be trained as warriors. BUT... Jedi are also seem pretty central to the appeal of Star Wars for a lot of players.
One idea I had was many centuries into the future from the Star Wars films, where the Force still exists, but there isn't a unified Jedi order since their legacy was disrupted. Instead, I'd have four competing Force-using sects who all have some similarities and some differences from the Jedi. It could also feature how different planets and cultures change over centuries.
Alternatively, I played in a game that is set in an isolated region where neither the Republic nor the Jedi have reach. This could have its own version of Jedi as well.
The question is, is there any point to this? Would it have any appeal to people who like Star Wars, or would it be better to just run an unrelated science fantasy game?
I don't care about publishing it commercially, so copyright doesn't matter here. It's a question of what sounds appealing.
Just as a personal opinion, I like Star Wars, at least much of it, and that would be cool with me. If you look at the expanded universe media, you'll see that there are a lot of vision of what the star wars setting could be and they're pretty widely accepted. I would be happy with about anything that branched off of canon between episodes 6 and 7. And just to benchmark where I'm coming from, 4,5,6 were works of art, 1,2,3 were pretty good, and 7,8,9 were appalling. They should have gone with Timothy Zahn's post-episode-6 story rather that mess.
Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 01:55:00 PMI don't care about publishing it commercially, so copyright doesn't matter here. It's a question of what sounds appealing.
When run WEG D6 Star Wars, which isn't very often lately, I've run it in the Mandalorian time frame. Post Jedi, but pre-sequels. The Empire is gone but it's remnants are still out there plotting their revenge/return. The New Republic is trying to rebuild but faces difficulties in getting everyone on the same page.
As to the Jedi, I know you don't like the details from the prequels, but I think they're pretty iconic now. I don't like it when the Jedi are knocked down too hard. The whole "The Jedi were the real bad guys" gets tiresome just as much as "The Empire were the real good guys". But they did fall, and part of that fall was their compromising and participating too closely in galactic politics and getting dragged into the mud of the Clone Wars. Luke has had some time to rebuild, but the Jedi are still rare and mysterious to most people in the galaxy.
This approach, I feel, manages to preserve a lot of the feel of the original films, but progresses the setting enough so that GMs have room to create new stories around the characters.
Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 01:55:00 PMInstead, I'd have four competing Force-using sects who all have some similarities and some differences from the Jedi.
You've jumped the shark.
The basic idea of a Jedi is to be a superhero for their story. If you can get one to help your side, then you've got a serious edge.
It's also why Jedi type characters frequently need limits in games. If they're too strong, playing everything else is pointless.
As for how divergent you want your setting to be, specifically the Jedi part, there are examples of clear copying a Jedi in all but name, or wildly different.
Palladium's Phase World setting has Jedi. They're called Cosmo-Knights.
A Cosmo-Knight is chosen by some super entity that lives in the center of the galaxy, and uplifted people have super strength, super resistance to damage, body armor that's tougher than most army tanks, invulnerable to laser and fire energy damage, Mach speed flight, FTL flight, a powerful melee weapon that is created out of thin air, energy blasts, do not breathe, eat, drink, or sleep, and high resistance to psychic forces.
I would call that an O.P. class. And so does the author, as Cosmo-Knights are only available if the GM gives permission to play one.
Another game is Starfinder by Paizo. The Solararion can generate a melee weapon from thin air, as well as gain a list of solar themed powers as they level up.
Pundit's own Star Adventurer has a Psychic Warrior that is a clear Jedi analog.
It's one of the bits of advice frequently given when people play West End Games Star Wars to only run all Jedi teams, or don't allow Jedi.
I might write my game so everyone is a not-Jedi of some flavor. Each one could be a roguish Jedi, a tank Jedi, a healer Jedi, or an eldritch Jedi.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 04, 2024, 02:51:03 PMAs to the Jedi, I know you don't like the details from the prequels, but I think they're pretty iconic now. I don't like it when the Jedi are knocked down too hard. The whole "The Jedi were the real bad guys" gets tiresome just as much as "The Empire were the real good guys".
That's the thing. I don't want to be knocking the prequel-era Jedi in my games, but I don't like them. I don't want them as bad guys -- I want them not to be an issue.
So I've been thinking about ways to play Star Wars without having prequel-based Jedi.
This just popped into my head: set the game "much longer ago, in a galaxy far, far away" There are a many proto-Jedi orders competing for talented recruits and influence. Two of them are the Temple and the Sith. Guess who wins? Part of the fun of this is that the ancient history of the Star Wars setting is kind of a mystery that people are curious about. This way you get to find out what happened, or at least your own version of it.
A long time ago at a table far, far, away...my GM got sick and tired of me playing good characters and another player having all sociopathic PCs. So he told me to make a Sith character and the other guy to make a Jedi.
He made a Jedi who behaved like a Sith and I made a Sith who behaved like a Jedi. This worked shockingly well on both sides. To this day when talking Star Wars, I tend to speak in-character specifically because a Sith who acts like a Jedi is outside of the way people normally interact with Star Wars. She was also quite the Star Wars legends history buff.
The defining traits of the Jedi are half philosophical and half aesthetic. Jedi believe the Force is basically a non-sentient energy. A spiritual bar magnet which pushes you around, but you can also push back to get things done. The idea that the Force is a sentient entity with goals of its own is more a Kreiatic Sith or Bloodline Sith viewpoint. You will essentially never see it among fallen Jedi Sith like Exar Kun, and only very rarely among Baneic Sith.
Aesthetically, the Jedi generally forego overt technology use or reliance on technology when they can rely on the Force instead. This is why Jedi wear robes rather than armor; the Force will almost always warn them when they are in immediate danger, showing them the future a split second before it happens. If they can rely on the Force to defend themselves, why would they use armor?
They do use technologies when necessary. The Force can't send you through hyperspace, so they do tend to use vehicles and spacecraft. Likewise, while you can use the Force to send messages to people, it isn't easy, and radios are far more reliable. Also, lightsabers: lightsabers are actually Sith inventions. The Jedi adopted their use out of necessity because the Sith using early lightsabers found it quite easy to overpower Jedi not using them. Jedi generally revile the use of technology, but are pragmatic enough to adopt it when necessary. This gives them a tech minimalistic aesthetic.
Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 04:17:24 PMSo I've been thinking about ways to play Star Wars without having prequel-based Jedi.
I think you're going to have an uphill battle on that one. If you're lucky, the players will be on board. But the prequel era are canon and a lot of fans grew up with the prequels as "their" Star Wars.
Quote from: GnomeWorks on October 04, 2024, 02:53:23 PMQuote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 01:55:00 PMInstead, I'd have four competing Force-using sects who all have some similarities and some differences from the Jedi.
You've jumped the shark.
I'd have to agree with GnomeWorks here.
It doesn't matter which era in the Star Wars franchise you draw ideas from, some of the stuff was shit and some was brilliant and some was just unworkable in a game. I didn't like the Yuuzhan Vong books and supplements because they were just too far outside what I consider Star Wars, but I kept some bits of it to tease my players with oddities in game. I love the ideas from the TIE Fighter/X-Wing games and the Kyle Katarn games and Rebel Assault, Starkiller from Force Unleashed was just so ridiculously overpowered that there was no way the character could be used in a game. The entire book of The Crystal Star made me violently ill and letting players incorporate some of the ideas into a game was a fucking nightmare.
There is a lot of Star Wars out there and you really just have to pick and choose what to use and what to ignore. Some works great and some are game-killing.
Quote from: jeff37923 on October 04, 2024, 06:20:33 PMStarkiller from Force Unleashed was just so ridiculously overpowered that there was no way the character could be used in a game.
Alls I know about Force Unleashed is the shot of Starkiller dragging a Star Destroyer out of orbit with the Force and I thought...
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTU1MjAxMDg1MV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwMTM1ODQyOTE@._V1_QL75_UY281_CR186,0,190,281_.jpg)
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 04, 2024, 05:55:56 PMQuote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 04:17:24 PMSo I've been thinking about ways to play Star Wars without having prequel-based Jedi.
I think you're going to have an uphill battle on that one. If you're lucky, the players will be on board. But the prequel era are canon and a lot of fans grew up with the prequels as "their" Star Wars.
Quote from: jeff37923 on October 04, 2024, 06:20:33 PMIt doesn't matter which era in the Star Wars franchise you draw ideas from, some of the stuff was shit and some was brilliant and some was just unworkable in a game. I didn't like the Yuuzhan Vong books and supplements because they were just too far outside what I consider Star Wars, but I kept some bits of it to tease my players with oddities in game. I love the ideas from the TIE Fighter/X-Wing games and the Kyle Katarn games and Rebel Assault, Starkiller from Force Unleashed was just so ridiculously overpowered that there was no way the character could be used in a game. The entire book of The Crystal Star made me violently ill and letting players incorporate some of the ideas into a game was a fucking nightmare.
There is a lot of Star Wars out there and you really just have to pick and choose what to use and what to ignore. Some works great and some are game-killing.
The problem is that -- as Ratman_tf points out -- the prequel-era Jedi are central to the canon at this point. Ignoring them isn't like ignoring The Crystal Star or other EU works, especially as the prequels have influenced so many later works.
I'd personally be happy if I could go back and just set a game in Star Wars universe before the prequels came out - maybe including some selection of EU comics or novels, but at this point, that seems like an even bigger ask than my far-future or fringe-galaxy setting ideas.
Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 07:06:02 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on October 04, 2024, 05:55:56 PMQuote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 04:17:24 PMSo I've been thinking about ways to play Star Wars without having prequel-based Jedi.
I think you're going to have an uphill battle on that one. If you're lucky, the players will be on board. But the prequel era are canon and a lot of fans grew up with the prequels as "their" Star Wars.
Quote from: jeff37923 on October 04, 2024, 06:20:33 PMIt doesn't matter which era in the Star Wars franchise you draw ideas from, some of the stuff was shit and some was brilliant and some was just unworkable in a game. I didn't like the Yuuzhan Vong books and supplements because they were just too far outside what I consider Star Wars, but I kept some bits of it to tease my players with oddities in game. I love the ideas from the TIE Fighter/X-Wing games and the Kyle Katarn games and Rebel Assault, Starkiller from Force Unleashed was just so ridiculously overpowered that there was no way the character could be used in a game. The entire book of The Crystal Star made me violently ill and letting players incorporate some of the ideas into a game was a fucking nightmare.
There is a lot of Star Wars out there and you really just have to pick and choose what to use and what to ignore. Some works great and some are game-killing.
The problem is that -- as Ratman_tf points out -- the prequel-era Jedi are central to the canon at this point. Ignoring them isn't like ignoring The Crystal Star or other EU works, especially as the prequels have influenced so many later works.
I'd personally be happy if I could go back and just set a game in Star Wars universe before the prequels came out - maybe including some selection of EU comics or novels, but at this point, that seems like an even bigger ask than my far-future or fringe-galaxy setting ideas.
Then do that.
A lot of what happened in the prequels, especially with the Jedi, would both not be common knowledge for most player characters and be deliberately covered up by the Empire's propaganda narrative. Almost 20 years have passed in the Star Wars universe since the prequels ended and the original trilogy begins, that is close to a generation of rewriting history by the Empire.
Quote from: jeff37923 on October 04, 2024, 07:22:18 PMQuote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 07:06:02 PMThe problem is that -- as Ratman_tf points out -- the prequel-era Jedi are central to the canon at this point. Ignoring them isn't like ignoring The Crystal Star or other EU works, especially as the prequels have influenced so many later works.
I'd personally be happy if I could go back and just set a game in Star Wars universe before the prequels came out - maybe including some selection of EU comics or novels, but at this point, that seems like an even bigger ask than my far-future or fringe-galaxy setting ideas.
Then do that.
A lot of what happened in the prequels, especially with the Jedi, would both not be common knowledge for most player characters and be deliberately covered up by the Empire's propaganda narrative. Almost 20 years have passed in the Star Wars universe since the prequels ended and the original trilogy begins, that is close to a generation of rewriting history by the Empire.
The
characters might not know it, but the
players certainly would.
I feel like it would be dissonant for current-day players to see, say, husband-and-wife Jedi masters like Luke and Mara Jade. But I guess you're saying you'd prefer that (ignoring prequel continuity) compared to a far-future or fringe-galaxy setting where there aren't canonical Jedi. Is that right?
It seemed to me that it was better to make a clear-cut break, rather than outright clashing with canon. Hmm...
Quote from: Fheredin on October 04, 2024, 05:50:22 PMA long time ago at a table far, far, away...my GM got sick and tired of me playing good characters and another player having all sociopathic PCs. So he told me to make a Sith character and the other guy to make a Jedi.
He made a Jedi who behaved like a Sith and I made a Sith who behaved like a Jedi. This worked shockingly well on both sides. To this day when talking Star Wars, I tend to speak in-character specifically because a Sith who acts like a Jedi is outside of the way people normally interact with Star Wars. She was also quite the Star Wars legends history buff.
Interesting. I had a similar pair of characters in a game from five years ago.
One was a Force-sensitive rebel who followed as best he could of Jedi ways based on books, but was never trained. He developed pinpoint accuracy - like Luke's Death Star shot - and used it as a sniper. The catch was that he was reaching out with his feelings, so he would
feel the target just as he shot them. This gave him a lot of guilt and nightmares. He tried to always learn and write down the name of whoever he shot and killed, and given them a proper burial if he could.
The other was a former Imperial inquisitor who was recruited because he hated the Jedi, but he also hated the Empire and quickly turned against them. He developed his own philosophy that the Emperor had corrupted the true message of the Sith, which was that emotions should be embraced and directed for righteousness. It was a type of grey Jedi philosophy. Love was good as connection to others, but hatred could also be good as hatred of injustice. Fear was natural - and the way past it wasn't to not feel fear, but to accept fear. I left it ambiguous if he was skating on the edge of the Dark Side, or if he had truly found a balance.
Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 07:58:20 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on October 04, 2024, 07:22:18 PMQuote from: jhkim on October 04, 2024, 07:06:02 PMThe problem is that -- as Ratman_tf points out -- the prequel-era Jedi are central to the canon at this point. Ignoring them isn't like ignoring The Crystal Star or other EU works, especially as the prequels have influenced so many later works.
I'd personally be happy if I could go back and just set a game in Star Wars universe before the prequels came out - maybe including some selection of EU comics or novels, but at this point, that seems like an even bigger ask than my far-future or fringe-galaxy setting ideas.
Then do that.
A lot of what happened in the prequels, especially with the Jedi, would both not be common knowledge for most player characters and be deliberately covered up by the Empire's propaganda narrative. Almost 20 years have passed in the Star Wars universe since the prequels ended and the original trilogy begins, that is close to a generation of rewriting history by the Empire.
The characters might not know it, but the players certainly would.
I feel like it would be dissonant for current-day players to see, say, husband-and-wife Jedi masters like Luke and Mara Jade. But I guess you're saying you'd prefer that (ignoring prequel continuity) compared to a far-future or fringe-galaxy setting where there aren't canonical Jedi. Is that right?
It seemed to me that it was better to make a clear-cut break, rather than outright clashing with canon. Hmm...
See, that's just it. The players may say that it clashes with canon, but it doesn't to the characters who only know what the Empire has told them. History being written by the victors means that the Empire's lies are considered truth until contradicted somehow and the whole structure of COMPNOR is to make sure that the lies are what is taught in schools, written of in history books, compiled in encyclopedias, portrayed in media, and proclaimed in the NewsNets.
If the players are having some cognitive dissonance about what happened in the prequels and how the Empire officially portrays events - use that in game. You could have a pretty good campaign based around finding out and proving what happened in the prequels because it is a direct attack on the basis of the Empire.
Think about what you could do with that approach.
Should you run official Star Wars, or a home brew, copycat universe that is somewhat similar?
I have no issue either way.
When I do run Star Wars, I pick a different time point to avoid the movies and Disney+ shows. I want my players to have the center stage. In fact, I'm running my son thru a Jedi campaign right now, set in the episode 1.5 time period when Anakin is just a Padawan, and hasn't even been a background character. Yoda has made an appearance. He is the current Jedi Master after all.
However, I would totally be willing to make my own version of Star Wars. I sort have a skeleton of a setting already. It's a universe with its own Clone War. In this universe, cloning is seen as immoral, especially by psychics who know they have human feelings. The good guy army is droid based, as their egalitarianism made the draft illegal a long time ago. Psychics are not usually randomly born. Instead, they can turn anyone into a level-1 psychic, but it costs them one of their own levels to do so.
I did start that other thread as an experiment to see what others want if the were to create a Jedi equivalent character. The fact it turned out to be a tech based powerhouse was interesting. I liked it, but that's another, another universe to quote Spider-Gwen. In a copycat universe, see above.
Quote from: Mishihari on October 04, 2024, 04:27:05 PMThis just popped into my head: set the game "much longer ago, in a galaxy far, far away" There are a many proto-Jedi orders competing for talented recruits and influence. Two of them are the Temple and the Sith. Guess who wins? Part of the fun of this is that the ancient history of the Star Wars setting is kind of a mystery that people are curious about. This way you get to find out what happened, or at least your own version of it.
Interesting.
As a question here... You say two of them are "the Temple" and "the Sith". But I want to get away from portraying the prequel Jedi -- including a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi.
Would this "early days" setup work for you if none of the factions were a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi? i.e. They're all different?
That's what I was planning for my far-future Force sects. There's a bunch of lore about the long history of the Jedi - most of it now based on prequel-era assumptions. I feel like it would be easier for Star Wars fans to accept differences from lore if it was in a projected future than in the distant past.
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2024, 02:59:02 AMQuote from: Mishihari on October 04, 2024, 04:27:05 PMThis just popped into my head: set the game "much longer ago, in a galaxy far, far away" There are a many proto-Jedi orders competing for talented recruits and influence. Two of them are the Temple and the Sith. Guess who wins? Part of the fun of this is that the ancient history of the Star Wars setting is kind of a mystery that people are curious about. This way you get to find out what happened, or at least your own version of it.
Interesting.
As a question here... You say two of them are "the Temple" and "the Sith". But I want to get away from portraying the prequel Jedi -- including a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi.
Would this "early days" setup work for you if none of the factions were a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi? i.e. They're all different?
That's what I was planning for my far-future Force sects. There's a bunch of lore about the long history of the Jedi - most of it now based on prequel-era assumptions. I feel like it would be easier for Star Wars fans to accept differences from lore if it was in a projected future than in the distant past.
For a good source of material for your Jedi Resurgence setting there is the Disney Plus anime series called Star Wars Visions. Specifically, the Ninth Jedi episode from season 1.
Now, it's not clear if this episode is in the past or future, but most assume it's the future because the Jedi are well known and extinct.
For everyone who hasn't seen it, a minor nobleman from the planet Hi Izlan in the outer rim is apparently trying to restart the Jedi Order to take on the Sith who rule the galaxy. Unlike A New Hope, here the Jedi are not almost extinct, but actually are extinct and have been for some time.
It's clear that things have changed as Lightsabers, and how to build them is a major plot point. Even when they're re-introduced during the episode, they're not really the same as the sabers we're used to. It's easily explained away since they're built by people who don't know how real sabers were made.
I'm being a bit cautious about the story. I want people to watch it without spoilers. Go watch it. It's damn good.
However, of any media that Disney Star Wars has created, this single episode is the one everyone seems to want made into an actual movie or TV series.
As a setting for an RPG, the Ninth Jedi is a great choice. As I mentioned, even established tropes can be changed and explained away because it's a new Jedi Order 2.0 built by amateurs who don't have all the details of how it was done in the past. They already build lightsabers differently, and those sabers function differently. They're bound to accidentally get more things wrong as they create a new Jedi Order, but it's not like the Order we know.
So, this is an actual example of a modified Star Wars Universe, and this one is done by the Star Wars people themselves.
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2024, 02:59:02 AMQuote from: Mishihari on October 04, 2024, 04:27:05 PMThis just popped into my head: set the game "much longer ago, in a galaxy far, far away" There are a many proto-Jedi orders competing for talented recruits and influence. Two of them are the Temple and the Sith. Guess who wins? Part of the fun of this is that the ancient history of the Star Wars setting is kind of a mystery that people are curious about. This way you get to find out what happened, or at least your own version of it.
Interesting.
As a question here... You say two of them are "the Temple" and "the Sith". But I want to get away from portraying the prequel Jedi -- including a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi.
Would this "early days" setup work for you if none of the factions were a stand-in for the prequel-era Jedi? i.e. They're all different?
That's what I was planning for my far-future Force sects. There's a bunch of lore about the long history of the Jedi - most of it now based on prequel-era assumptions. I feel like it would be easier for Star Wars fans to accept differences from lore if it was in a projected future than in the distant past.
I'm good with any variants of Star Wars, so that would be fine. I'm not terribly worried about canon - there are enough different versions that one more isn't going to make much difference.
I liked the idea of doing it in the ancient history of Star Wars because I'm curious about it. And when I mentioned the temple and the sith, the idea wasn't to present them as they're shown in an current stories, but to show what they used to be, the more different, the better. And then have an event or two that started them evolving towards their state in the movies. It's not that different in execution than setting it in the future.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 04, 2024, 03:08:01 PMThe basic idea of a Jedi is to be a superhero for their story. If you can get one to help your side, then you've got a serious edge.
It's also why Jedi type characters frequently need limits in games. If they're too strong, playing everything else is pointless.
As for how divergent you want your setting to be, specifically the Jedi part, there are examples of clear copying a Jedi in all but name, or wildly different.
Palladium's Phase World setting has Jedi. They're called Cosmo-Knights.
A Cosmo-Knight is chosen by some super entity that lives in the center of the galaxy, and uplifted people have super strength, super resistance to damage, body armor that's tougher than most army tanks, invulnerable to laser and fire energy damage, Mach speed flight, FTL flight, a powerful melee weapon that is created out of thin air, energy blasts, do not breathe, eat, drink, or sleep, and high resistance to psychic forces.
I would call that an O.P. class. And so does the author, as Cosmo-Knights are only available if the GM gives permission to play one.
This might sound like a smug "gotcha" question, but I don't mean it that way.
This sounds to me a lot like an even more overpowered Warhammer 40k Space Marine. Would you class them as another version of Jedi under another name?
Quote from: ForgottenF on October 05, 2024, 04:25:48 PMQuote from: weirdguy564 on October 04, 2024, 03:08:01 PMThe basic idea of a Jedi is to be a superhero for their story. If you can get one to help your side, then you've got a serious edge.
It's also why Jedi type characters frequently need limits in games. If they're too strong, playing everything else is pointless.
As for how divergent you want your setting to be, specifically the Jedi part, there are examples of clear copying a Jedi in all but name, or wildly different.
Palladium's Phase World setting has Jedi. They're called Cosmo-Knights.
A Cosmo-Knight is chosen by some super entity that lives in the center of the galaxy, and uplifted people have super strength, super resistance to damage, body armor that's tougher than most army tanks, invulnerable to laser and fire energy damage, Mach speed flight, FTL flight, a powerful melee weapon that is created out of thin air, energy blasts, do not breathe, eat, drink, or sleep, and high resistance to psychic forces.
I would call that an O.P. class. And so does the author, as Cosmo-Knights are only available if the GM gives permission to play one.
This might sound like a smug "gotcha" question, but I don't mean it that way.
This sounds to me a lot like an even more overpowered Warhammer 40k Space Marine. Would you class them as another version of Jedi under another name?
Arguably, the Cosmo Knights are more the power level of Green Lanterns. They'd eat Space Marines for breakfast and use Jedi as toothpicks.
The resemblance is that they have a code of conduct, powers beyond the norm and serve galactic society.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 05, 2024, 10:00:39 AMFor a good source of material for your Jedi Resurgence setting there is the Disney Plus anime series called Star Wars Visions. Specifically, the Ninth Jedi episode from season 1.
Now, it's not clear if this episode is in the past or future, but most assume it's the future because the Jedi are well known and extinct.
Thanks, weirdguy564!! That's just what I'd be looking for. I just watched it. Here's the opening crawl of the episode.
QuoteMany generations have passed since the light of the Jedi protected the galaxy. Since then, an era of war has arisen.
But Margrave Juro, ruler of the planet Hy Izlan, has a plan. He has recently begun mining for rare kyber crystals with his territory. Using these crystals, he seeks to restore the Jedi by reforging their ancient weapons, lightsabers, which have been since lost to the galaxy.
However, ancient dark forces conspire to subjugate the galaxy. They hatch their own sinister plan to hunt all suspected Jedi and bring forth a new era of Sith rule...
It's possible that the Jedi could have been wiped out and re-established in the distant past, but the simpler answer is that it's in the future. It being only a 15-minute episode, there isn't time to establish any differences of what the new Jedi would be like compared to the old. The features we see of them seem the same, but there could be other differences.
I'd probably set mine many more generations later, when Juro and Ethan and Kara are distant memories... Enough time to establish new traditions.
I'll make another post with my ideas for the post-Jedi factions soon.
Is there a particular set of "Star Wars fans" that you know who have objected to any "non-canon" ideas, or is this just speculative? This sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me...
First of all, there's no such thing as Star Wars "canon" now, and arguably never was. Most Star Wars "fans" know this and are well aware of the hodge-podge nature of the setting. At the least, there is original Lucas canon, comic-book canon, prequel canon, expanded universe canon, cartoon series canon, and Disney-Wars canon. And I've probably missed a few. Almost no one I know treats all of it as the same level of "canon." People are picking and choosing all of the time (and most are probably not aware of 50% of it, anyway). Hell, even Lucas-canon isn't, since he constantly made changes to the history and setting while making his movies.
Star Wars is an aesthetic, not a setting or history. It's a feel (which is why Disney is failing so badly at it). I've run many sessions of WEG SW (set post OT) where I've ignored the prequels entirely, had Jedi as wandering Buddhist monk-types who never were part of an organization or government, and everyone had a blast. All players want to do is roleplay swinging lightsabers, blasting stormtroopers (or their equivalent), and having wild adventures. Don't overthink it, because you'll screw it up even worse. Pull the little bits of Star Wars lore that your players will instantly recognize, get them on a spaceship with something/one blasting at them, and have fun. That's what "Star Wars" is...
"I don't believe it!"
"That is why you fail."
Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2024, 11:25:29 PMThanks, weirdguy564!! That's just what I'd be looking for. I just watched it.
It's possible that the Jedi could have been wiped out and re-established in the distant past, but the simpler answer is that it's in the future. It being only a 15-minute episode, there isn't time to establish any differences of what the new Jedi would be like compared to the old. The features we see of them seem the same, but there could be other differences.
I'd probably set mine many more generations later, when Juro and Ethan and Kara are distant memories... Enough time to establish new traditions.
I'll make another post with my ideas for the post-Jedi factions soon.
Glad you liked it. It is by FAR the most popular episode of Star Wars Visions. It is well liked for being the closest to Star Wars, yet it still has it's own flair to it. Many, many people have commented that The Ninth Jedi be turned into an actual series, or be the plot of the next movies.
At least it sets a precedent that even officially produced Star Wars stories can have an instance where a divergent Jedi Order exists. Granted, the Visions series is officially non-canon, but its still a source of material to draw on.
As for literally being in the Ninth Jedi universe, that might be a stretch. Just have a version of the galaxy just like the Ninth Jedi where they went extinct, bad guys are taking over, and establishing a new Jedi Order is the main plot of the RPG.
Quote from: ForgottenF on October 05, 2024, 04:25:48 PMQuote from: weirdguy564 on October 04, 2024, 03:08:01 PMThe basic idea of a Jedi is to be a superhero for their story. If you can get one to help your side, then you've got a serious edge.
It's also why Jedi type characters frequently need limits in games. If they're too strong, playing everything else is pointless.
As for how divergent you want your setting to be, specifically the Jedi part, there are examples of clear copying a Jedi in all but name, or wildly different.
Palladium's Phase World setting has Jedi. They're called Cosmo-Knights.
A Cosmo-Knight is chosen by some super entity that lives in the center of the galaxy, and uplifted people have super strength, super resistance to damage, body armor that's tougher than most army tanks, invulnerable to laser and fire energy damage, Mach speed flight, FTL flight, a powerful melee weapon that is created out of thin air, energy blasts, do not breathe, eat, drink, or sleep, and high resistance to psychic forces.
I would call that an O.P. class. And so does the author, as Cosmo-Knights are only available if the GM gives permission to play one.
This might sound like a smug "gotcha" question, but I don't mean it that way.
This sounds to me a lot like an even more overpowered Warhammer 40k Space Marine. Would you class them as another version of Jedi under another name?
They are quite powerful, yes. Individually, a Cosmo-Knight is on par with a small warship for durability and firepower.
However, they're like this because the Rifts RPG is chocked full of extremely powerful character classes that can do all sorts of things. I just use them as an example of a sci-fi setting that has a group of knights that are on another level of power. Cosmo-Knights are Jedi Knights for their universe.
Like Ratman said, they're closest to comic book super heroes, specifically a cross between Superman and Green Lantern. In fact, I think the hero they're closest to would be Captain Marvel from Marvel comics, and even then I would give her Thor's hammer, Mjolnir.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 06, 2024, 09:17:22 AMI've run many sessions of WEG SW (set post OT) where I've ignored the prequels entirely, had Jedi as wandering Buddhist monk-types who never were part of an organization or government, and everyone had a blast. All players want to do is roleplay swinging lightsabers, blasting stormtroopers (or their equivalent), and having wild adventures.
This matches the OT better than the prequels did. In those original movies, the Jedi seemed more like they were normal people (such as Generals) who were also part of the Jedi Order. When a Jedi would find a suitable apprentice, he'd send the apprentice to Degoba to be trained by a local "master" who lived their. Of course, Obi-Wan never sent Annakin to see Yoda which is why neither Vader nor Palpatine seem to even know Yoda existed in the original movies.
So they'll end up more like Witchers; working alone most of the time but informally teaming up with other Jedi for important tasks. And, if the Jedi Order is small, you could add other force using traditions throughout the galaxy that might be fiends, allies, or even enemies. This is something official Star Wars has touched on but never really explored well.
Also, if you take the path of ignoring the prequels, you can greatly dial back a Jedi's physical powers making them a better fit for an RPG.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 06, 2024, 12:08:33 PMHowever, they're like this because the Rifts RPG is chocked full of extremely powerful character classes that can do all sorts of things. I just use them as an example of a sci-fi setting that has a group of knights that are on another level of power. Cosmo-Knights are Jedi Knights for their universe.
Good point. They're how OP a class has to be to be considered overpowered in a game that is already (in)famous for having a ton of crazy powerful character races and classes.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 06, 2024, 09:17:22 AMIs there a particular set of "Star Wars fans" that you know who have objected to any "non-canon" ideas, or is this just speculative? This sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me...
First of all, there's no such thing as Star Wars "canon" now, and arguably never was. Most Star Wars "fans" know this and are well aware of the hodge-podge nature of the setting. At the least, there is original Lucas canon, comic-book canon, prequel canon, expanded universe canon, cartoon series canon, and Disney-Wars canon. And I've probably missed a few. Almost no one I know treats all of it as the same level of "canon." People are picking and choosing all of the time (and most are probably not aware of 50% of it, anyway). Hell, even Lucas-canon isn't, since he constantly made changes to the history and setting while making his movies.
Star Wars is an aesthetic, not a setting or history. It's a feel (which is why Disney is failing so badly at it). I've run many sessions of WEG SW (set post OT) where I've ignored the prequels entirely, had Jedi as wandering Buddhist monk-types who never were part of an organization or government, and everyone had a blast. All players want to do is roleplay swinging lightsabers, blasting stormtroopers (or their equivalent), and having wild adventures. Don't overthink it, because you'll screw it up even worse. Pull the little bits of Star Wars lore that your players will instantly recognize, get them on a spaceship with something/one blasting at them, and have fun. That's what "Star Wars" is...
"I don't believe it!"
"That is why you fail."
Uhh....I disagree?
The thing with Star Wars is not that it's a genre hodgepodge, but that the specific genre hodgepodge components Lucas originally picked wound up conflicting in a pretty specific way, which turns Star Wars into the genre equivalent of M. C. Escher's Relativity. For example, practically everything any Jedi ever says screams, "enlightened pacifist Buddhist," or, "tree hugging hippie," but most of the Jedi we actually see are front line fighters wielding high tech laser swords. That's not a random genre hodgepodge; that's intentionally putting opposites next to each other to project a sense of well worn-in complexity to the universe.
This formula isn't unique to Star Wars, either. In RPG settings, Deadlands has the high-tech steam gadgets powered by Ghost Rock, which is using this formula for Western Alternative History rather than Science Fantasy.
Most successful Star War content opts to draw more out of the already existing contradictions. You can absolutely add new contradicting elements to the mix (huge swaths of the old EU qualify, but Kotor 2 gets the nod for going completely off the rails and still being recognizably Star Wars because it understood this formula), but material made by people who do not understand how this technique created the unique feel of the original trilogy will probably not succeed to add new material to Star Wars and still feel, "Star Warsy."
Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 06, 2024, 09:17:22 AMIs there a particular set of "Star Wars fans" that you know who have objected to any "non-canon" ideas, or is this just speculative? This sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me...
Yes, this is just speculative -- that's why I'm asking for what people think here.
Also, there's different degrees of breaking with canon. If the Jedi are fine with love and marriage and attachment, and only recruit people as adults, then that completely invalidates the
central plot of the three prequel movies. That's not some obscure line or minor side character or EU book.
I know a number of serious Star Wars fans. For example, I have a good friend (who officiated my wedding) that just got a Wraith Squadron tattoo. I think it's at least plausible that some would find the premise offputting.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 06, 2024, 09:17:22 AMStar Wars is an aesthetic, not a setting or history. It's a feel (which is why Disney is failing so badly at it). I've run many sessions of WEG SW (set post OT) where I've ignored the prequels entirely, had Jedi as wandering Buddhist monk-types who never were part of an organization or government, and everyone had a blast. All players want to do is roleplay swinging lightsabers, blasting stormtroopers (or their equivalent), and having wild adventures.
Nothing wrong with mindless action, but I also like some more grounded stuff - a bit like beer-and-pretzels gonzo dungeon-crawling vs authentic medieval campaigns. In my Harn games, say, I followed a bunch of essays on religious belief.
In this case, I want to support the possibility of some more serious play. I gave the example of the guilt-ridden Force-sensitive sniper character before, which is the sort of character I've had in many Star Wars games. One of the reasons why I prefer the original trilogy over the prequels is because they suggested that the Jedi were
not just chop-em-up action heroes.
Quote from: Yoda in The Empire Strikes BackReady, are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained! A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.
(to the invisible Ben, indicating Luke)
This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph.
Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh!
A Jedi craves not these things.
Quote from: jhkim on October 06, 2024, 06:45:07 PMAlso, there's different degrees of breaking with canon. If the Jedi are fine with love and marriage and attachment, and only recruit people as adults, then that completely invalidates the central plot of the three prequel movies. That's not some obscure line or minor side character or EU book.
I know a number of serious Star Wars fans. For example, I have a good friend (who officiated my wedding) that just got a Wraith Squadron tattoo. I think it's at least plausible that some would find the premise offputting.
I don't think you've understood a part of what I've been saying.
What if what the players' know is wrong?
Yes, the prequels show that attachment leads to the Dark Side and the Jedi believe that. Except the marriage of Luke and Mara demonstrates that isn't always true. So what is true? The players don't really know and it is up to the GM to decide.
If I ever run Star Wars again...which is probably unlikely thanks to Disney...I would build the setting from the Marvel Star Wars comics published between Star Wars and Empire and perhaps those between Empire and Jedi. AKA, maybe the first 60 issues or so.
Why? The old 70s/80s Marvel crew were great authors and illustrators and they were in a truly marvelous predicament:
Imagine having to make Star Wars comics between movies when you had little or no idea what Lucas was going to do next AND you had permission to go in all sorts of directions.
The results ranged from whacky to awesome. Anyone who is a fan of Star Wars and/or Guardians of the Galaxy will really enjoy those comics.
Please don't click on the link below.
https://readallcomics.com/star-wars-v1-001/
My other future possible Star Wars RPG setting would be based entirely on the ORIGINAL Star Wars draft script that is quite unlike the final script, but you get to see the genesis of George Lucas' ideas. Several years ago, Dark Horse did a wonderful comic series based on that script and it would make a very kewl Not-Star Wars-But-Still-Star-Wars RPG setting.
Don't click this link either.
https://readallcomics.com/category/the-star-wars/
Quote from: Spinachcat on October 06, 2024, 09:10:59 PMIf I ever run Star Wars again...which is probably unlikely thanks to Disney...I would build the setting from the Marvel Star Wars comics published between Star Wars and Empire and perhaps those between Empire and Jedi. AKA, maybe the first 60 issues or so.
Why? The old 70s/80s Marvel crew were great authors and illustrators and they were in a truly marvelous predicament:
Imagine having to make Star Wars comics between movies when you had little or no idea what Lucas was going to do next AND you had permission to go in all sorts of directions.
The results ranged from whacky to awesome. Anyone who is a fan of Star Wars and/or Guardians of the Galaxy will really enjoy those comics.
Please don't click on the link below.
https://readallcomics.com/star-wars-v1-001/
My other future possible Star Wars RPG setting would be based entirely on the ORIGINAL Star Wars draft script that is quite unlike the final script, but you get to see the genesis of George Lucas' ideas. Several years ago, Dark Horse did a wonderful comic series based on that script and it would make a very kewl Not-Star Wars-But-Still-Star-Wars RPG setting.
Don't click this link either.
https://readallcomics.com/category/the-star-wars/
And if using WEG d6, don't you dare click on the following link.
https://www.generic-hero.com/lost/index.html
If I were to run a campaign in a modified original Star Wars universe, I would probably go far back in time, or go just as far forward in time.
Going back, you could run a campaign in the Old Republic of BioWare video game settings, probably during the SWTOR MMO game. It's got lots of Jedi and Lots of Sith, complete with lore that's available online to read as much as you like.
Or.
Modify The Old Republic Era a bit and have the Sith Empire invade the nascent Republic that still has grass and forests on Coruscant. A Republic that isn't ready, has no clue about Force Users, and leaders that cannot understand why their larger and better equipped military keeps losing to these unknown Sith Empire that came out of the edge of the galaxy and started conquering. The problem is belief. Nobody thinks Force Powers are even real. When the game starts, a group of religious swordsmen from Tython have just offered to help the Republic.
Or.
Run a campaign set in the future like The Ninth Jedi anime. A galaxy where there are no more Jedi, but the Sith, or Sith-like, dictators are in charge, and it's time to do something about it. Time to gather up the people willing to fight back, and maybe setup a new Jedi Order while we're at it.
Quote from: jeff37923 on October 06, 2024, 09:13:31 PMAnd if using WEG d6, don't you dare click on the following link.
https://www.generic-hero.com/lost/index.html
Thank you VERY much Jeff! You saved me tremendous research time and I am very happy that others have used the early SW Marvel comics for their campaign inspiration.
But I won't dare click that link even if I'm not using WEG D6!!
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 06, 2024, 11:06:46 PMModify The Old Republic Era a bit and have the Sith Empire invade the nascent Republic that still has grass and forests on Coruscant. A Republic that isn't ready, has no clue about Force Users, and leaders that cannot understand why their larger and better equipped military keeps losing to these unknown Sith Empire that came out of the edge of the galaxy and started conquering. The problem is belief. Nobody thinks Force Powers are even real. When the game starts, a group of religious swordsmen from Tython have just offered to help the Republic.
This sounds like a setting I would really enjoy
Quote from: Mishihari on October 07, 2024, 04:41:12 AMQuote from: weirdguy564 on October 06, 2024, 11:06:46 PMModify The Old Republic Era a bit and have the Sith Empire invade the nascent Republic that still has grass and forests on Coruscant. A Republic that isn't ready, has no clue about Force Users, and leaders that cannot understand why their larger and better equipped military keeps losing to these unknown Sith Empire that came out of the edge of the galaxy and started conquering. The problem is belief. Nobody thinks Force Powers are even real. When the game starts, a group of religious swordsmen from Tython have just offered to help the Republic.
This sounds like a setting I would really enjoy
Thanks.
Basically, I combined the first contact with Force Users with the first war against the True Sith Empire of Korriban.
One minor detail. In the Clone Wars cartoon the Sith home world was named, but George changed it. He liked Morriban.
I prefer the old name more. I came up with an explanation that in the Sith language Korriban is "Home World", and Morriban means "Dead Home World". And, of course it's creepy that this race felt the need for a word for this event. It's not canon, but I like it as it allows both to be true.
Quote from: Spinachcat on October 07, 2024, 02:38:14 AMBut I won't dare click that link even if I'm not using WEG D6!!
Neither will I.
I DID, however, copy and paste the link into my search bar and hit enter. Good stuff. :D
Quote from: Spinachcat on October 06, 2024, 09:10:59 PMIf I ever run Star Wars again...which is probably unlikely thanks to Disney...I would build the setting from the Marvel Star Wars comics published between Star Wars and Empire and perhaps those between Empire and Jedi. AKA, maybe the first 60 issues or so.
Why? The old 70s/80s Marvel crew were great authors and illustrators and they were in a truly marvelous predicament:
Imagine having to make Star Wars comics between movies when you had little or no idea what Lucas was going to do next AND you had permission to go in all sorts of directions.
The results ranged from whacky to awesome. Anyone who is a fan of Star Wars and/or Guardians of the Galaxy will really enjoy those comics.
Please don't click on the link below.
https://readallcomics.com/star-wars-v1-001/
My other future possible Star Wars RPG setting would be based entirely on the ORIGINAL Star Wars draft script that is quite unlike the final script, but you get to see the genesis of George Lucas' ideas. Several years ago, Dark Horse did a wonderful comic series based on that script and it would make a very kewl Not-Star Wars-But-Still-Star-Wars RPG setting.
Don't click this link either.
https://readallcomics.com/category/the-star-wars/
Circling back to JHKim's original concern, I think this would be a really effective way of getting Star Wars fans on board. IME Players are pretty prone to the argument from authority, and are usually more willing to engage with something published than they are with pure homebrew. Using the comic continuity, or the original script continuity gives you something you can point to and let them still feel like there's a canon being adhered to, even if it's not the one they're used to. Mentally, it changes things from "I'm taking this thing you love and changing it" to "here's something related to the thing you love that you can explore". I'd guess that would work best with the original script version, since it's so clearly divorced from any of the various Star Wars canons.
I know I'm late to the conversation on this. 3 days of PAINFUL training in OKC and a weekend & Monday catching up on the things that needed to be taken care of.
Back in the day when I played WEG's SW (and the fan made updated version of it) I always increased the influence of things like 'Gray Jedi' (the mention of it in PM made it cannon enough for me) and Jedi that were at odds with the council and Yoda's reliance on one view of the force and governing the council in that mindset.
I had some jedi that had more stoic views or used other historic/philosophy outlooks than that of the jedi council etc.
There were other player / GMs that pushed back against that with the view that 'grey Jedi' were always an excuse for Jedi players to act like sith (ignoring the reference of Qui-Gon Jinn being or leaning toward being 'Gray').
If you go that route, you can keep your setting as close to cannon (well the good cannon in 456 and some of 123 except for midiclorians I hate that from 1, but like you said 789 sucks so completely ignore them) or book/fan popular cannon as you want and your players will have a solid background knowledge without you having to recreate the wheel or catch them up on setting background/changes.
Now, for all the other ideas here , good stuff all
Thanks for the links that I promise I have not and will not look into !
The SWTOR Cinematics are how I like my Star Wars. It's big Big BIG. It has intrigue, skullduggery, cosmic danger, crazy over-the-top awesome. Everything is in play and turned up to 12.
https://youtu.be/7szRTHRg04Q?si=ayxbObH0urrFanI8
It's Star Wars, and it's different. It's not chained to anything remotely tied to the movies except the names of the institutions and locales that have existed for millennia.
It's the cure for what ails us.
Mini-six Bare Bones Edition has a knockoff Star Wars themed setting in the back of the book. It's called Imperium in Revolt.
One of the changes I made was the Star Paladin's "Sense Danger" power on page 31. As it's written it doesn't work. It raises defense by 2D6, while lower your offense by -1D6 due to the concentration penalty. Well, if two knights fight while using this power, they literally can't hit each other. In D6 Star Wars you need to be within +/-2D6 for there to be a challenge. If the skill split is larger, then don't bother.
Instead, I had it turn your plasma Sword into 75% cover against ranged attacks only, while concentrating, with a difficulty target number of 5 per enemy (roll a 15, and you're in cover vs 3 ranged enemies). In addition, it's effective in any direction, and immune to being blinded.
Also, if the attacker rolls a 1 on the Wild Die, the ranged shot is deflected back an automatically hits the shooter, no roll needed.
The second change was to have knights creating other knights by using a ritual to transfer 1D6 worth of their "magic" skill to the non-psychic, typically a child that has trained for years to be a Paladin. I did this so there can be family drama as families raise some children to become Paladins, or refuse to do so, or worse, raise a stranger to be a Paladin instead of there own child.
I also don't have any light or dark sides. If a Psychic is a mean old bastard, that's got nothing to do withe being psychic. They're just bad.
Quote from: ForgottenF on October 07, 2024, 11:14:15 AMQuote from: Spinachcat on October 06, 2024, 09:10:59 PMI would build the setting from the Marvel Star Wars comics published between Star Wars and Empire and perhaps those between Empire and Jedi. AKA, maybe the first 60 issues or so.
Why? The old 70s/80s Marvel crew were great authors and illustrators and they were in a truly marvelous predicament
Circling back to JHKim's original concern, I think this would be a really effective way of getting Star Wars fans on board. IME Players are pretty prone to the argument from authority, and are usually more willing to engage with something published than they are with pure homebrew. Using the comic continuity, or the original script continuity gives you something you can point to and let them still feel like there's a canon being adhered to, even if it's not the one they're used to.
I agree the original comics are cool - I enjoyed them a bit as a kid even though I only had a handful of issues. I'm good with expressing which options one likes, but it's not like there has to be one true way.
So I'm going to first give a few ideas about my far-future. If the Republic and Empire are seen as the Roman Republic and Empire, then this would be like the late medieval era of Europe. The galaxy is politically divided into many forces, and there is widespread but not universal tyranny, slavery, and oppression. The Sith were dominant for centuries, but there are factions of other Force-users who have arisen.
- Known as the "Champions" or "Champions of Liberty", a group of Force-users who are militantly organized in trying to end tyranny, free slaves, and spread just rule. They are most like the Rebellion in aesthetic -- they are democratic and take votes among members of a chapter. (So as a religion they're more like Scottish Presbyterians than Catholics.) They wear different clothes rather than robes or uniforms. They act in chapters and squads rather than having master and apprentice. They recruit new members as young adults. Their force powers are more direct and less mystical.
- Known as "Keepers" or "Keepers of the Way", a group of Force-users who are organized as communities of families. Everyone in the village learns about the Force and reveres it, even though only a few have great talent. Children are thus raised by their families in the Force. They have some of the close-knit feel of Tibetan Buddhist or Amish villages, though they don't reject technology per se. A community will go out to defend and help people in their area, but they don't go on missions across the galaxy. Their powers are more subtle and mystical, based around flow.
- The "Enlightened" or "Society of the Enlightened" are like a high-tech ivory tower, parallel to medieval monasteries. They spread learning and give refuge to people, but they don't try to topple governments or change wars. They will at least go on rescue or spy missions, using non-lethal high-tech weapons like stunners, grapplers, and nets. Some devices will only work using telekinesis. Their aesthetic is more like Mandalorians with armor and weapons - living in high-tech temples similar to the old one on Coruscant.
- The "Caretakers" or "Caretakers of the Web of Life", who are nature-connected hermits most similar to Yoda in his later life. They are disconnected from politics and society, but will still work to protect life and oppose killing and destruction. They don't use either lightsabers or blasters, but use more the power of nature - including controlling animals as well as forces like wind and lightning. Note that animals can be damn powerful in Star Wars, up through giant worms that live in space - so there is a lot of potential here.
I do know some lore around The Star Wars - The story of Luke Starkiller and the Way of the Whills was in and out, then back in, but changed.
1. Luke Skywalker was Luke Starkiller.
2. There was no Force. Jedi Knights were just a code of conduct, and Jedi were just known to be a shrinking group of diehards who still behaved this way. Even the bad guys who used to be knights still followed the code sometimes
3. Lightsabers were not special. Everyone had one. They're just the swords everyone uses. Stormtroopers have that cylinder on the back of their belt. That was going to be their lightsaber. Now it's just decoration and the wrong size.
4. Chewbacca was much uglier, and his first look was recycled to become Zeb Orellius from the Rebels cartoon.
5. Star Destroyers were a class of star fighters.
6. The Khyber crystal was singular. It was when George changed Jedi to have psychic powers. To become a Jedi you touched the softball sized diamond Khyber Crystal, got wammied, woke up, and had powers. Being rare and powerful, it was under constant guard.
STAR WARS trailers...via 1950s AI upgrade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy5WlDY6eCk
OR this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b59ua_CaYQ8
EMPIRE STRIKES BACK...via 1950s AI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XOTZj7oCOU
(EDIT) and I found RETURN OF THE JEDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGfFQHUG0b8
Far better, far more creative and far more fun than any of Disney's woketarded crap.
One campaign I really want to run, but probably never will is Star Wars vs Star Trek.
Not the insipid "who would win in a fight" but the conflict between the two franchies' assumptions.
The Federation has a non-interference policy that their Starfleet officers will die to adhere to.
Even the good guys in Star Wars have no issues working with or against primitive cultures.
Wars has a backbone theme of mythology and mysticism. Trek is about rationality and materialism.
Trek is a shiny, intellectual future, Wars is dingy and well used.
Wars has the Force, Trek has empaths, telepaths and some aliens with really out there powers over energy and matter.
So the idea is to put both franchises in a bag, shake vigirously, and pick out elements to combine in new ways to contrast and compare them while building the campaign.
Interesting thoughts there. I vaguely recalled some details about the original script, but I had to look up others. I think it would take a lot of work to make a fully fleshed-out RPG setting from any unproduced movie script.
As I was thinking about my far-future Star Wars setting, I was thinking about how to convey the flavor of the setting, like its late-medieval-ishness (versus the the Roman Republic and Empire as the original Star Wars). I thought about calling it,
Star Wars: An Age Undreamed Of
which obviously riffs off of R.E. Howard, though his Hyboria wasn't technically medieval, it has a related feel. But even so, I'm mulling over the feel that conveys.
The intent is that it's a future with lots of squabbling powers among different systems, and competing religious systems/sects, and plenty of tyranny and slavery in the various fiefdoms. Not a big dystopia like the Empire, just a balkanized mess.
I have a basic rule of GM'ing. Whenever there is a controversy there will be at least 4 differing opinions about it.
1. This faction loves it a lot.
2. This faction is ok with it, but only just.
3. This faction doesn't like it, but don't pay it much attention.
4. This faction hates it, full on.
I think Star Wars could use something like this. There should be factions. Other nations. At least four in total. That way each one can have one of the four attitudes towards the main talking point of the day.
You can still run a rebellion story, overthrowing a dictatorship as outnumbered freedom fighters.
But, that doesn't mean the entire galaxy is inside that one country ruled by the dictator of evil incarnate.
The multiple nations allow for political intrigue, alliances, spying, and all the other plots you can think of. I prefer this as I'm a GM mostly, and sources of adventure stories is what I need.
********
For my home brew setting the major issue of the day is cloning.
One faction, the baddies ruled by the Emperor of Evil, are big time cloners. They have clone soldiers, clone workers, clone mistresses, clone assassins, and clones of key politicians who are secretly arrested and replaced to illegally swing voting.
I also have an additional element. You can't clone memories, so clones are actually driven by postage stamp size microchips that contain the AI. Without the chip, the cloned body comes out of the factory as a drooling, lobotomized thing that can't even eat for itself.
This also has the side effect that a clone worker that dies can be brought back if you retrieve the chip. Just stick it into a new body (the DNA code record is on the chip) and put the clone back to work. Death is not an escape.
Quote from: tenbones on October 07, 2024, 09:28:12 PMThe SWTOR Cinematics are how I like my Star Wars. It's big Big BIG. It has intrigue, skullduggery, cosmic danger, crazy over-the-top awesome. Everything is in play and turned up to 12.
https://youtu.be/7szRTHRg04Q?si=ayxbObH0urrFanI8
It's Star Wars, and it's different. It's not chained to anything remotely tied to the movies except the names of the institutions and locales that have existed for millennia.
It's the cure for what ails us.
yeah...
too bad cinematics is all there is to it. the game
writing is all typical mmo bs - bland and aimed at its 12yo audience. plays fine mechanically, though.
now, its spiritual predecessors - KOTOR games - are very good imo, especially the 2nd one. might be worthy of pilfering some ideas from.
Another story change I toy with is simple. Multiple Jedi Orders.
In fact, they are in competition with each other. Some more than others. A few are bitter rivals, while others are almost always allies you can count on when you need it.
Take my rule of four factions idea. Now pick a topic like the morality of cloning.
One nation is all in on cloning everything. Every household has clone servants. Their mystic order of knights are no exception. To justify this I would likely say that this order does not and will not teach or learn mind reading. They view that as highly immoral because it is an invasion of privacy.
Another nation is absolutely against cloning. This nation has another mystic knight order that does have the power of mind reading, and are used extensively in law enforcement. They can feel the emotions of the poor clones, and so everyone is hell bent on rescuing the clones in a sort of Underground Railroad situation. They also arrest people for how they think.
That's the catalyst for a war.
In fact, there are two opinions on morality at play here. Cloning and invasion of privacy. Both factions have a problem with the other, and a clear fault that needs fixing.
But, is this Star Wars anymore?
Quote from: Spinachcat on October 06, 2024, 09:10:59 PMIf I ever run Star Wars again...which is probably unlikely thanks to Disney...I would build the setting from the Marvel Star Wars comics published between Star Wars and Empire and perhaps those between Empire and Jedi. AKA, maybe the first 60 issues or so.
Why? The old 70s/80s Marvel crew were great authors and illustrators and they were in a truly marvelous predicament:
Imagine having to make Star Wars comics between movies when you had little or no idea what Lucas was going to do next AND you had permission to go in all sorts of directions.
The results ranged from whacky to awesome. Anyone who is a fan of Star Wars and/or Guardians of the Galaxy will really enjoy those comics.
You can also buy the omnibus collections of the OG Star Wars comics that Dark Horse published.
They were printed under the title "A Long Time Ago..."
https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Omnibus-Long-Time/dp/1595824863
I think there were five omnibus volumes of them produced.
They also appear to be available on Kindle. Though, if you buy them on Kindle, I strongly recommend making backups of the books via... methods... in case Kindle loses the rights to them in the future.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 11, 2024, 10:14:12 AMAnother story change I toy with is simple. Multiple Jedi Orders.
In fact, they are in competition with each other. Some more than others. A few are bitter rivals, while others are almost always allies you can count on when you need it.
Take my rule of four factions idea. Now pick a topic like the morality of cloning.
One nation is all in on cloning everything. Every household has clone servants. Their mystic order of knights are no exception. To justify this I would likely say that this order does not and will not teach or learn mind reading. They view that as highly immoral because it is an invasion of privacy.
Another nation is absolutely against cloning. This nation has another mystic knight order that does have the power of mind reading, and are used extensively in law enforcement. They can feel the emotions of the poor clones, and so everyone is hell bent on rescuing the clones in a sort of Underground Railroad situation. They also arrest people for how they think.
That's the catalyst for a war.
In fact, there are two opinions on morality at play here. Cloning and invasion of privacy. Both factions have a problem with the other, and a clear fault that needs fixing.
But, is this Star Wars anymore?
Yeah, that's the issue.
I think to some degree, there need to be some clear good guys and bad guys in Star Wars. It's science fantasy, not science fiction, and there should be monsters (either real or metaphorical) to fight. That doesn't mean there can't be factions, though.
In the scenario above, both nations seem horrible. It shouldn't require mind-reading to see your slaves as people. On the other hand, mind-reading thought police are also obviously horrible. To me, this feels more Star-Trek-ish, which isn't a bad thing (I love Star Trek) but it's distinct from the usual Star Wars feel.
I think the fantasy flavor of Star Wars calls for different sorts of factions.
---
I tried to set up my post-Jedi factions as having a clear fantasy aesthetic, but also make them all reasonable good guys, just in different styles. They could cooperate and fight cool evil villains or monsters, but they might also have interesting differences in how they do so.
Did you have any thoughts on those?
Quote from: jhkim on October 07, 2024, 10:31:06 PMSo I'm going to first give a few ideas about my far-future. If the Republic and Empire are seen as the Roman Republic and Empire, then this would be like the late medieval era of Europe. The galaxy is politically divided into many forces, and there is widespread but not universal tyranny, slavery, and oppression. The Sith were dominant for centuries, but there are factions of other Force-users who have arisen.
- Known as the "Champions" or "Champions of Liberty", a group of Force-users who are militantly organized in trying to end tyranny, free slaves, and spread just rule. They are most like the Rebellion in aesthetic -- they are democratic and take votes among members of a chapter. (So as a religion they're more like Scottish Presbyterians than Catholics.) They wear different clothes rather than robes or uniforms. They act in chapters and squads rather than having master and apprentice. They recruit new members as young adults. Their force powers are more direct and less mystical.
- Known as "Keepers" or "Keepers of the Way", a group of Force-users who are organized as communities of families. Everyone in the village learns about the Force and reveres it, even though only a few have great talent. Children are thus raised by their families in the Force. They have some of the close-knit feel of Tibetan Buddhist or Amish villages, though they don't reject technology per se. A community will go out to defend and help people in their area, but they don't go on missions across the galaxy. Their powers are more subtle and mystical, based around flow.
- The "Enlightened" or "Society of the Enlightened" are like a high-tech ivory tower, parallel to medieval monasteries. They spread learning and give refuge to people, but they don't try to topple governments or change wars. They will at least go on rescue or spy missions, using non-lethal high-tech weapons like stunners, grapplers, and nets. Some devices will only work using telekinesis. Their aesthetic is more like Mandalorians with armor and weapons - living in high-tech temples similar to the old one on Coruscant.
- The "Caretakers" or "Caretakers of the Web of Life", who are nature-connected hermits most similar to Yoda in his later life. They are disconnected from politics and society, but will still work to protect life and oppose killing and destruction. They don't use either lightsabers or blasters, but use more the power of nature - including controlling animals as well as forces like wind and lightning. Note that animals can be damn powerful in Star Wars, up through giant worms that live in space - so there is a lot of potential here.
I'm thinking mainly as a GM. For every moral dilemma that is solved, add three more. We need that to happen so there is more to do as an ongoing campaign.
As for Star Wars, you're right. A childishly simple setup of good vs evil was always the core story.
Just make the bad guys bad, put them in vaguely 1940's German style totalitarianism government and uniforms, and let rip. They're very bad guys. Kill as many as you can.
You know? Like pig-faced orcs that smell like manure, eat people, and reproduce with your daughters as they see fit. Bad. Guys. Period.
In my example: cloning is immoral. The one nation does it anyways because it gets very effective military results, plus, the ruling elite all get a bunch of sexy house maids that don't say no or have a headache.
Quote from: jhkim on October 11, 2024, 01:06:44 PMI think to some degree, there need to be some clear good guys and bad guys in Star Wars. It's science fantasy, not science fiction, and there should be monsters (either real or metaphorical) to fight.
Correct in the first part, but wrong in the second. Star Wars absolutely needs a Manichean divide between good and bad guys... at least if you are talking O.T. And that's the problem with the second statement. Star Wars has
never been just one thing.
The original trilogy wasn't "science fantasy" at all. There was no (and I mean absolutely
zero) science in it at all. The best descriptor I've seen is that it was a "space opera." Broad-brush themes with high drama. The foundations of the OT (Chanbara, Flash Gordon, and Westerns) weren't "science" anything either. There were no politics at all in the O.T. (and no, a single line about the Imperial Senate is not politics). It was all swashbuckling and adventure.
Now jump to the prequel trilogy. I can still remember all of us leaving the theatre after seeing TPM, and saying, "What the hell did we just watch? It was interesting in parts, it looked like Star Wars in parts, but it wasn't Star Wars..."). The PT had politics, it had factions, it had alliance-building (though only rudimentary in nature). And, despite having the trappings of the OT, it felt nothing like the OT.
Add to this the disjointed, incoherent, and tonally chaotic sequel trilogy, and you might as well have three separate movie series. And once again, we are ignoring the tones of the comics, EU, cartoons, etc. So, you have to ask yourself, which "Star Wars" is your group a fan of. Because fans of the OT won't give a damn about "factions." And fans of the PT might find it central to their experience.
And fans of the ST just need mental health services.
So who is your audience?
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 11, 2024, 04:15:50 PMI'm thinking mainly as a GM. For every moral dilemma that is solved, add three more. We need that to happen so there is more to do as an ongoing campaign.
As for Star Wars, you're right. A childishly simple setup of good vs evil was always the core story.
Just make the bad guys bad, put them in vaguely 1940's German style totalitarianism government and uniforms, and let rip. They're very bad guys. Kill as many as you can.
You know? Like pig-faced orcs that smell like manure, eat people, and reproduce with your daughters as they see fit. Bad. Guys. Period.
Hm. That doesn't seem quite right. Han Solo isn't squeaky clean. He was a drug runner and criminal who turned out ok after a period of "Nah, I'm not going to risk my neck for these chumps".
Lando Calrissian was a criminal turned bureacrat who also turned out ok. If it hadn't been Han and Chewie at Cloud City, would Lando have made the same choices? He certainly didn't care about what happened to Luke until Chewie started growling and throttling him...
The whole setup of the Clone Wars is a truly bad guy (Palpatine) manipulating a bunch of morally grey factions (The Seperatists) to install his Empire.
I agree that Star Wars shouldn't be murky grey. The Rebellion in a more "realistic" world would have been up to some pretty despicable activities. But this is Star Wars, and we get to stay away from the icky bits of being rebels, and play up the heroic bits.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 11, 2024, 04:46:04 PMThe original trilogy wasn't "science fantasy" at all. There was no (and I mean absolutely zero) science in it at all. The best descriptor I've seen is that it was a "space opera." Broad-brush themes with high drama. The foundations of the OT (Chanbara, Flash Gordon, and Westerns) weren't "science" anything either. There were no politics at all in the O.T. (and no, a single line about the Imperial Senate is not politics). It was all swashbuckling and adventure.
It was a 5 minute sequence, not a single line. It detailed the reasons for the conflict, the motivations of the major players, and the means they were going to accomplish them. It also gave us one of the most memorable lines out of Star Wars.
(https://media.tenor.com/yWg93qy6rswAAAAM/darth-vader-choke.gif)
The politics of ANH took a back seat to the action, but it was there, and a major reason for the story to even exist.
In contrast, I've often pointed out that I still don't know why the Resistance and First Order were fighting each other. Force Awakens was pure action and lacked any tension because it lacked any kind of story to hold the action sequences together.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 11, 2024, 04:55:50 PMHm. That doesn't seem quite right. Han Solo isn't squeaky clean. He was a drug runner and criminal who turned out ok after a period of "Nah, I'm not going to risk my neck for these chumps".
Lando Calrissian was a criminal turned bureacrat who also turned out ok. If it hadn't been Han and Chewie at Cloud City, would Lando have made the same choices? He certainly didn't care about what happened to Luke until Chewie started growling and throttling him...
The OT set up some characters as being of
initially unknown morality, to build suspense. Han isn't just a smuggler, he also dumped his last load - we learn that in his first scene. Would he do the same to Luke and Ben? We don't get to know the real Han until he returns at the end of the first film, and then we trust him completely. Similarly with Lando. Boba Fett also starts out morally grey, but he ends up very much aligned with the forces of evil.
Compare that to the PT. Are clones good? Evil? What about separatists? Jengo Fett? It's a mess, even by the end. Do I cheer on the clones saving the Jedi, even though I know they're part of Palpatine's plan? That lack of someone to cheer on is a huge difference between the trilogies.
Quote from: Krazz on October 11, 2024, 05:42:29 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on October 11, 2024, 04:55:50 PMHm. That doesn't seem quite right. Han Solo isn't squeaky clean. He was a drug runner and criminal who turned out ok after a period of "Nah, I'm not going to risk my neck for these chumps".
Lando Calrissian was a criminal turned bureacrat who also turned out ok. If it hadn't been Han and Chewie at Cloud City, would Lando have made the same choices? He certainly didn't care about what happened to Luke until Chewie started growling and throttling him...
The OT set up some characters as being of initially unknown morality, to build suspense. Han isn't just a smuggler, he also dumped his last load - we learn that in his first scene. Would he do the same to Luke and Ben? We don't get to know the real Han until he returns at the end of the first film, and then we trust him completely. Similarly with Lando. Boba Fett also starts out morally grey, but he ends up very much aligned with the forces of evil.
Compare that to the PT. Are clones good? Evil? What about separatists? Jengo Fett? It's a mess, even by the end. Do I cheer on the clones saving the Jedi, even though I know they're part of Palpatine's plan? That lack of someone to cheer on is a huge difference between the trilogies.
I don't think there's anything to cheer about in the prequels. I mean, in the moment we can cheer Anakin blowing up the droid control ship. or the clones kicking seperatist droid butts. But the point of the prequels is how the Republic fell into becoming an empire and the personal fall of Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader. It wasn't going to be a happy happy trilogy like the first one. Does that kind of moral ambiguity mean it wasn't Star Warsy? It felt Star Warsy to me. Just not as good as the OT, which I feel were better films for other reasons.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 11, 2024, 04:46:04 PMQuote from: jhkim on October 11, 2024, 01:06:44 PMI think to some degree, there need to be some clear good guys and bad guys in Star Wars. It's science fantasy, not science fiction, and there should be monsters (either real or metaphorical) to fight.
Correct in the first part, but wrong in the second. Star Wars absolutely needs a Manichean divide between good and bad guys... at least if you are talking O.T. And that's the problem with the second statement. Star Wars has never been just one thing.
I agree that Star Wars has never been just one thing. It's a loose cluster of different qualities, mostly by similarity to the Original Trilogy. But even so, that doesn't mean that there aren't some things that feel more Star-Wars-y and some that feel more out of place. Like any art, that's subjective, but not arbitrary - and I think a lot of people would agree at least about generalities.
Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 11, 2024, 04:46:04 PMSo who is your audience?
I don't know. I'm sure there's lots of overlap and variation among the various subsets of Star Wars fandom that I'm not aware of. But then again, this isn't a serious business venture, or a sociology thesis.
I'm just thinking out loud, and curious about people's reactions - especially about the options for different Jedi who aren't like the prequel Jedi.
I was over and done by the end of the second prequel movie; never even bothered to watch the third. I hated the prequels and everything I've heard about the movies released after those has done nothing to improve my opinion.
Quote from: Klava on October 11, 2024, 07:50:18 AMyeah...
too bad cinematics is all there is to it. the game writing is all typical mmo bs - bland and aimed at its 12yo audience. plays fine mechanically, though.
now, its spiritual predecessors - KOTOR games - are very good imo, especially the 2nd one. might be worthy of pilfering some ideas from.
Really? The Sith Warrior and especially the Imperial Agent stories were absolute bangers (the Jedi Consular was ass). But again you'd have to play it context with a crew of friends for maximum impact. EVEN THEN - it's lightyears beyond modern Star Wars. And the setting is a perfect sandbox for a GM worth their salt to go hog wild without the burden of modern Star Wars and the Skywalker anchor.
Quote from: tenbones on October 14, 2024, 06:48:15 PMQuote from: Klava on October 11, 2024, 07:50:18 AMyeah...
too bad cinematics is all there is to it. the game writing is all typical mmo bs - bland and aimed at its 12yo audience. plays fine mechanically, though.
now, its spiritual predecessors - KOTOR games - are very good imo, especially the 2nd one. might be worthy of pilfering some ideas from.
Really? The Sith Warrior and especially the Imperial Agent stories were absolute bangers (the Jedi Consular was ass). But again you'd have to play it context with a crew of friends for maximum impact.
well, i guess i'm kinda stuck comparing it to KOTOR, which it claims to be a spiritual successor to - it fails miserably in that regard. i agree on warrior and agent stories - on their own merits, those were okay, yes. agents' is the only one i could stomach going "dark side" for though - the rest "evil paths" in that game are like role-playing a 12yo edgelord. i blame target audience >_>. light side sith warrior (yeah, i know) is surprisingly decent though.
QuoteEVEN THEN - it's lightyears beyond modern Star Wars. And the setting is a perfect sandbox for a GM worth their salt to go hog wild without the burden of modern Star Wars and the Skywalker anchor.
oh, i do agree with that^, yes sir. still, if one's to pilfer from any crpg for a star wars game in the old republic setting, original KOTOR games should come first imo.
Yeah I don't particularly care specifically about SWOTOR/KOTOR in terms of following the stories themselves, though they are superb (and for those reading this that don't know - KOTOR is 300-years *before* SWTOR). All of those events in the games matter in terms of specific "big picture" stuff.
What is most important is the setting as a sandbox for that era. It's absolutely massive. Those games push very philosophies of the Jedi and Sith to their limits, even recapitulating themselves back into one another which creates very strong arguments for the misapprehensions that people have about the Force. It's exactly what you all think it is - but it's the human nature element that fucks it all up. For those that give a crap, that's all pure RP grist for the mill.
But the era post-KOTOR which they call The Great Cold War which sets a massive stage for all kinds of possibilities, where the Sith Empire has taken half the galaxy, the Old Republic teeters and recoils while trying to muster its strength and in between them is a vast "border" where both sides secretly vie for control. It's packed with tension. As a GM one only needs to put their finger on the map, and pick a "theme" of what's the big issue with the backdrop being Imperial/Republic influence as they consolidate their forces for the inevitable hot war.
You can totally ignore it. You can keep things totally wide open, exploration is totally a thing where your players are looking for new hyperspace routes which can find just about anything. There are civilizations and even entire empires - the Chiss Ascendancy for instance - which you can campaign in (The Chiss are the blue-skinned near-humans that Grand Admiral Thrawn comes from. They are the *only* culture to fight the Empire to a standstill despite being massively smaller).
There are all the galactic secrets of KOTOR and SWTOR - the Starforge, the elder races and their fallen artifacts which imply full-blown Cthulhu mythos fare. There are the horrors of the Rak Ghoul (basically werewolf zombies) infestation. The list goes on and on. Far beyond just the Empire/Republic war. Which is kind of the point. All of that stuff can just be a backdrop, the beauty of the Cold War is that it lets your campaign breathe on its own where you can let your game be whatever you want it to be.
very good, tenbones. i couldn't agree more.
@ anyone who wants their star wars game detached from everything that's been done to ruin the franchise since original trilogy - you can't go wrong with the old republic games' stuff, imo.
SWTOR is a good setting for one reason.
There are thousands of Jedi vs Thousands of Sith.
One of the problems of Star Wars, even before Disney, was the rule of two. There are only two bad guys.
Even actual Star Wars then has to break this rule for storytelling.
A rule of two. Let's count.
1. Darth Sidious
2. Darth Tyranous/Count Dukuu
Uh.
3. Asajj Ventress
4. Savage Opress
5. The Night Sisters
6. Darth Mail (because being cut in half and falling a thousand feet into a power reactor is just a boo-boo).
7. Darth Vader
8-19. The dozen or so Inqusitors
Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 17, 2024, 04:07:38 PMSWOTOR is a good setting for one reason.
There are thousands of Jedi vs Thousands of Sith.
One of the problems of Star Wars, even before Disney, was the rule of two. There are only two bad guys.
Even actual Star Wars then has to break this rule for storytelling.
A rule of two. Let's count.
1. Darth Sidious
2. Darth Tyranous/Count Dukuu
Uh.
3. Asajj Ventress
4. Savage Opress
5. The Night Sisters
6. Darth Mail (because being cut in half and falling a thousand feet into a power reactor is just a boo-boo).
7. Darth Vader
8-19. The dozen or so Inqusitors
The Rule of Two is a great thing; if you're George Lucas looking to make a second trilogy (and only a second trilogy) that only needs maybe 6-7 hours of material.
It was never intended to be an RPG or MMO or countless spin-off series. Which is why everything beyond the first six films is basically an asspull to try and turn something never meant to be looked at too closely into a coherent setting.
Some do it better than others and for RPG sandboxing I'd say SWTOR is probably the best you'll find for mixing familiar Star Wars elements into something with the breadth and depth you'd need for regular campaigns to be held in it.
Frankly, in the broadest sense, each of the eight class stories (plus Fallen Empire/Eternal Throne) with their set of five companions could be the starting point for an extended campaign... particularly the first arc of each class story (many of the second and third arcs fall considerably short).
Right! that's why for gaming purposes, The Old Republic and it's immense amount of lore and time-scale gives you more Star Wars than you could possibly shake a gaffi-stick at. Pick an era, pick a starting point, and start tossing dice. There is so much potential conflict and literally anything/everything you'd have in modern Lucas-era/EU can be found in much deeper deposits in the Old Republic era.
Nothing is flaccid and failing. The Hutts? Massive political powers in their own right. The Sith Empire? Ungodly powerful and ruthless - far far more coherent than modern-era Star Wars. Jedi? Tons of lore, secrets, and history (not all of it good - but certainly good-intentioned) same with the Sith. Cosmic horrors, ancient races that predate the technology of the Empire and Republic. Corporations with powermad schemes. Mandalorian golden ages. Actually bounty hunter cultures and traditions. Tons of cool cultures that are independent of the Empire/Republic. As much politics and skullduggery as you can handle. Pirates!! You can even get really "cyberpunk" with it - crime cartels outside of the Hutts, abound. Some specializing in slicing (and Star Wars does that analog hacking so you have to do your techie-shit on and in the premises), assassination and everything in-between.
Old Republic really is the best thing for Star Wars gaming.