One campaign I really want to run, but probably never will is Star Wars vs Star Trek.

Not the insipid "who would win in a fight" but the conflict between the two franchies' assumptions.

The Federation has a non-interference policy that their Starfleet officers will die to adhere to.
Even the good guys in Star Wars have no issues working with or against primitive cultures.
Wars has a backbone theme of mythology and mysticism. Trek is about rationality and materialism.
Trek is a shiny, intellectual future, Wars is dingy and well used.
Wars has the Force, Trek has empaths, telepaths and some aliens with really out there powers over energy and matter.

So the idea is to put both franchises in a bag, shake vigirously, and pick out elements to combine in new ways to contrast and compare them while building the campaign.

Interesting thoughts there. I vaguely recalled some details about the original script, but I had to look up others. I think it would take a lot of work to make a fully fleshed-out RPG setting from any unproduced movie script.


As I was thinking about my far-future Star Wars setting, I was thinking about how to convey the flavor of the setting, like its late-medieval-ishness (versus the the Roman Republic and Empire as the original Star Wars). I thought about calling it,

Star Wars: An Age Undreamed Of

which obviously riffs off of R.E. Howard, though his Hyboria wasn't technically medieval, it has a related feel. But even so, I'm mulling over the feel that conveys.

The intent is that it's a future with lots of squabbling powers among different systems, and competing religious systems/sects, and plenty of tyranny and slavery in the various fiefdoms. Not a big dystopia like the Empire, just a balkanized mess.

I have a basic rule of GM'ing.  Whenever there is a controversy there will be at least 4 differing opinions about it.

1.  This faction loves it a lot. 
2.  This faction is ok with it, but only just.
3.  This faction doesn't like it, but don't pay it much attention.
4.  This faction hates it, full on.

I think Star Wars could use something like this. There should be factions.  Other nations. At least four in total.  That way each one can have one of the four attitudes towards the main talking point of the day. 

You can still run a rebellion story, overthrowing a dictatorship as outnumbered freedom fighters. 

But, that doesn't mean the entire galaxy is inside that one country ruled by the dictator of evil incarnate. 

The multiple nations allow for political intrigue, alliances, spying, and all the other plots you can think of.  I prefer this as I'm a GM mostly, and sources of adventure stories is what I need.

********

For my home brew setting the major issue of the day is cloning. 

One faction, the baddies ruled by the Emperor of Evil, are big time cloners.  They have clone soldiers, clone workers, clone mistresses, clone assassins, and clones of key politicians who are secretly arrested and replaced to illegally swing voting. 

I also have an additional element.  You can't clone memories, so clones are actually driven by postage stamp size microchips that contain the AI.  Without the chip, the cloned body comes out of the factory as a drooling, lobotomized thing that can't even eat for itself. 

This also has the side effect that a clone worker that dies can be brought back if you retrieve the chip. Just stick it into a new body (the DNA code record is on the chip) and put the clone back to work. Death is not an escape.

Quote from: tenbones on October 07, 2024, 09:28:12 PMThe SWTOR Cinematics are how I like my Star Wars. It's big Big BIG. It has intrigue, skullduggery, cosmic danger, crazy over-the-top awesome. Everything is in play and turned up to 12.

https://youtu.be/7szRTHRg04Q?si=ayxbObH0urrFanI8

It's Star Wars, and it's different. It's not chained to anything remotely tied to the movies except the names of the institutions and locales that have existed for millennia.

It's the cure for what ails us.

yeah...
too bad cinematics is all there is to it. the game writing is all typical mmo bs - bland and aimed at its 12yo audience. plays fine mechanically, though.
now, its spiritual predecessors - KOTOR games - are very good imo, especially the 2nd one. might be worthy of pilfering some ideas from.

Another story change I toy with is simple.  Multiple Jedi Orders.

In fact, they are in competition with each other.  Some more than others.  A few are bitter rivals, while others are almost always allies you can count on when you need it.

Take my rule of four factions idea.  Now pick a topic like the morality of cloning.

One nation is all in on cloning everything.  Every household has clone servants.  Their mystic order of knights are no exception.  To justify this I would likely say that this order does not and will not teach or learn mind reading.  They view that as highly immoral because it is an invasion of privacy.

Another nation is absolutely against cloning.  This nation has another mystic knight order that does have the power of mind reading, and are used extensively in law enforcement.  They can feel the emotions of the poor clones, and so everyone is hell bent on rescuing the clones in a sort of Underground Railroad situation. They also arrest people for how they think.

That's the catalyst for a war.

In fact, there are two opinions on morality at play here.  Cloning and invasion of privacy.  Both factions have a problem with the other, and a clear fault that needs fixing.

But, is this Star Wars anymore?

Quote from: Spinachcat on October 06, 2024, 09:10:59 PMIf I ever run Star Wars again...which is probably unlikely thanks to Disney...I would build the setting from the Marvel Star Wars comics published between Star Wars and Empire and perhaps those between Empire and Jedi. AKA, maybe the first 60 issues or so.

Why? The old 70s/80s Marvel crew were great authors and illustrators and they were in a truly marvelous predicament:

Imagine having to make Star Wars comics between movies when you had little or no idea what Lucas was going to do next AND you had permission to go in all sorts of directions.

The results ranged from whacky to awesome. Anyone who is a fan of Star Wars and/or Guardians of the Galaxy will really enjoy those comics.

You can also buy the omnibus collections of the OG Star Wars comics that Dark Horse published.

They were printed under the title "A Long Time Ago..."

https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Omnibus-Long-Time/dp/1595824863

I think there were five omnibus volumes of them produced.

They also appear to be available on Kindle. Though, if you buy them on Kindle, I strongly recommend making backups of the books via... methods... in case Kindle loses the rights to them in the future.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 11, 2024, 10:14:12 AMAnother story change I toy with is simple.  Multiple Jedi Orders.

In fact, they are in competition with each other.  Some more than others.  A few are bitter rivals, while others are almost always allies you can count on when you need it.

Take my rule of four factions idea.  Now pick a topic like the morality of cloning.

One nation is all in on cloning everything.  Every household has clone servants.  Their mystic order of knights are no exception.  To justify this I would likely say that this order does not and will not teach or learn mind reading.  They view that as highly immoral because it is an invasion of privacy.

Another nation is absolutely against cloning.  This nation has another mystic knight order that does have the power of mind reading, and are used extensively in law enforcement.  They can feel the emotions of the poor clones, and so everyone is hell bent on rescuing the clones in a sort of Underground Railroad situation. They also arrest people for how they think.

That's the catalyst for a war.

In fact, there are two opinions on morality at play here.  Cloning and invasion of privacy.  Both factions have a problem with the other, and a clear fault that needs fixing.

But, is this Star Wars anymore?

Yeah, that's the issue.

I think to some degree, there need to be some clear good guys and bad guys in Star Wars. It's science fantasy, not science fiction, and there should be monsters (either real or metaphorical) to fight. That doesn't mean there can't be factions, though.

In the scenario above, both nations seem horrible. It shouldn't require mind-reading to see your slaves as people. On the other hand, mind-reading thought police are also obviously horrible. To me, this feels more Star-Trek-ish, which isn't a bad thing (I love Star Trek) but it's distinct from the usual Star Wars feel.

I think the fantasy flavor of Star Wars calls for different sorts of factions.

---

I tried to set up my post-Jedi factions as having a clear fantasy aesthetic, but also make them all reasonable good guys, just in different styles. They could cooperate and fight cool evil villains or monsters, but they might also have interesting differences in how they do so.

Did you have any thoughts on those?

Quote from: jhkim on October 07, 2024, 10:31:06 PMSo I'm going to first give a few ideas about my far-future. If the Republic and Empire are seen as the Roman Republic and Empire, then this would be like the late medieval era of Europe. The galaxy is politically divided into many forces, and there is widespread but not universal tyranny, slavery, and oppression. The Sith were dominant for centuries, but there are factions of other Force-users who have arisen.

• Known as the "Champions" or "Champions of Liberty", a group of Force-users who are militantly organized in trying to end tyranny, free slaves, and spread just rule. They are most like the Rebellion in aesthetic -- they are democratic and take votes among members of a chapter. (So as a religion they're more like Scottish Presbyterians than Catholics.) They wear different clothes rather than robes or uniforms. They act in chapters and squads rather than having master and apprentice. They recruit new members as young adults. Their force powers are more direct and less mystical.
• Known as "Keepers" or "Keepers of the Way", a group of Force-users who are organized as communities of families. Everyone in the village learns about the Force and reveres it, even though only a few have great talent. Children are thus raised by their families in the Force. They have some of the close-knit feel of Tibetan Buddhist or Amish villages, though they don't reject technology per se. A community will go out to defend and help people in their area, but they don't go on missions across the galaxy. Their powers are more subtle and mystical, based around flow.
• The "Enlightened" or "Society of the Enlightened" are like a high-tech ivory tower, parallel to medieval monasteries. They spread learning and give refuge to people, but they don't try to topple governments or change wars. They will at least go on rescue or spy missions, using non-lethal high-tech weapons like stunners, grapplers, and nets. Some devices will only work using telekinesis. Their aesthetic is more like Mandalorians with armor and weapons - living in high-tech temples similar to the old one on Coruscant.
• The "Caretakers" or "Caretakers of the Web of Life", who are nature-connected hermits most similar to Yoda in his later life. They are disconnected from politics and society, but will still work to protect life and oppose killing and destruction. They don't use either lightsabers or blasters, but use more the power of nature - including controlling animals as well as forces like wind and lightning. Note that animals can be damn powerful in Star Wars, up through giant worms that live in space - so there is a lot of potential here.

I'm thinking mainly as a GM.  For every moral dilemma that is solved, add three more.  We need that to happen so there is more to do as an ongoing campaign.

As for Star Wars, you're right.  A childishly simple setup of good vs evil was always the core story.

Just make the bad guys bad, put them in vaguely 1940's German style totalitarianism government and uniforms, and let rip.  They're very bad guys.  Kill as many as you can. 

You know?   Like pig-faced orcs that smell like manure, eat people, and reproduce with your daughters as they see fit.  Bad.  Guys.  Period. 

In my example:  cloning is immoral.  The one nation does it anyways because it gets very effective military results, plus, the ruling elite all get a bunch of sexy house maids that don't say no or have a headache. 

Quote from: jhkim on October 11, 2024, 01:06:44 PMI think to some degree, there need to be some clear good guys and bad guys in Star Wars. It's science fantasy, not science fiction, and there should be monsters (either real or metaphorical) to fight.

Correct in the first part, but wrong in the second.  Star Wars absolutely needs a Manichean divide between good and bad guys... at least if you are talking O.T.  And that's the problem with the second statement.  Star Wars has never been just one thing.

The original trilogy wasn't "science fantasy" at all.  There was no (and I mean absolutely zero) science in it at all.  The best descriptor I've seen is that it was a "space opera."  Broad-brush themes with high drama.  The foundations of the OT (Chanbara, Flash Gordon, and Westerns) weren't "science" anything either.  There were no politics at all in the O.T. (and no, a single line about the Imperial Senate is not politics).  It was all swashbuckling and adventure.

Now jump to the prequel trilogy.  I can still remember all of us leaving the theatre after seeing TPM, and saying, "What the hell did we just watch?  It was interesting in parts, it looked like Star Wars in parts, but it wasn't Star Wars...").  The PT had politics, it had factions, it had alliance-building (though only rudimentary in nature).  And, despite having the trappings of the OT, it felt nothing like the OT.

Add to this the disjointed, incoherent, and tonally chaotic sequel trilogy, and you might as well have three separate movie series.  And once again, we are ignoring the tones of the comics, EU, cartoons, etc.  So, you have to ask yourself, which "Star Wars" is your group a fan of.  Because fans of the OT won't give a damn about "factions."  And fans of the PT might find it central to their experience. 

And fans of the ST just need mental health services.

So who is your audience?

Quote from: weirdguy564 on October 11, 2024, 04:15:50 PMI'm thinking mainly as a GM.  For every moral dilemma that is solved, add three more.  We need that to happen so there is more to do as an ongoing campaign.

As for Star Wars, you're right.  A childishly simple setup of good vs evil was always the core story.

Just make the bad guys bad, put them in vaguely 1940's German style totalitarianism government and uniforms, and let rip.  They're very bad guys.  Kill as many as you can. 

You know?  Like pig-faced orcs that smell like manure, eat people, and reproduce with your daughters as they see fit.  Bad.  Guys.  Period. 
 

Hm. That doesn't seem quite right. Han Solo isn't squeaky clean. He was a drug runner and criminal who turned out ok after a period of "Nah, I'm not going to risk my neck for these chumps".
Lando Calrissian was a criminal turned bureacrat who also turned out ok. If it hadn't been Han and Chewie at Cloud City, would Lando have made the same choices? He certainly didn't care about what happened to Luke until Chewie started growling and throttling him...

The whole setup of the Clone Wars is a truly bad guy (Palpatine) manipulating a bunch of morally grey factions (The Seperatists) to install his Empire.

I agree that Star Wars shouldn't be murky grey. The Rebellion in a more "realistic" world would have been up to some pretty despicable activities. But this is Star Wars, and we get to stay away from the icky bits of being rebels, and play up the heroic bits.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 11, 2024, 04:46:04 PMThe original trilogy wasn't "science fantasy" at all.  There was no (and I mean absolutely zero) science in it at all.  The best descriptor I've seen is that it was a "space opera."  Broad-brush themes with high drama.  The foundations of the OT (Chanbara, Flash Gordon, and Westerns) weren't "science" anything either.  There were no politics at all in the O.T. (and no, a single line about the Imperial Senate is not politics).  It was all swashbuckling and adventure.

It was a 5 minute sequence, not a single line. It detailed the reasons for the conflict, the motivations of the major players, and the means they were going to accomplish them. It also gave us one of the most memorable lines out of Star Wars.



The politics of ANH took a back seat to the action, but it was there, and a major reason for the story to even exist.

In contrast, I've often pointed out that I still don't know why the Resistance and First Order were fighting each other. Force Awakens was pure action and lacked any tension because it lacked any kind of story to hold the action sequences together.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 11, 2024, 04:55:50 PMHm. That doesn't seem quite right. Han Solo isn't squeaky clean. He was a drug runner and criminal who turned out ok after a period of "Nah, I'm not going to risk my neck for these chumps".
Lando Calrissian was a criminal turned bureacrat who also turned out ok. If it hadn't been Han and Chewie at Cloud City, would Lando have made the same choices? He certainly didn't care about what happened to Luke until Chewie started growling and throttling him...

The OT set up some characters as being of initially unknown morality, to build suspense. Han isn't just a smuggler, he also dumped his last load - we learn that in his first scene. Would he do the same to Luke and Ben? We don't get to know the real Han until he returns at the end of the first film, and then we trust him completely. Similarly with Lando. Boba Fett also starts out morally grey, but he ends up very much aligned with the forces of evil.

Compare that to the PT. Are clones good? Evil? What about separatists? Jengo Fett? It's a mess, even by the end. Do I cheer on the clones saving the Jedi, even though I know they're part of Palpatine's plan? That lack of someone to cheer on is a huge difference between the trilogies.

Quote from: Krazz on October 11, 2024, 05:42:29 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 11, 2024, 04:55:50 PMHm. That doesn't seem quite right. Han Solo isn't squeaky clean. He was a drug runner and criminal who turned out ok after a period of "Nah, I'm not going to risk my neck for these chumps".
Lando Calrissian was a criminal turned bureacrat who also turned out ok. If it hadn't been Han and Chewie at Cloud City, would Lando have made the same choices? He certainly didn't care about what happened to Luke until Chewie started growling and throttling him...

The OT set up some characters as being of initially unknown morality, to build suspense. Han isn't just a smuggler, he also dumped his last load - we learn that in his first scene. Would he do the same to Luke and Ben? We don't get to know the real Han until he returns at the end of the first film, and then we trust him completely. Similarly with Lando. Boba Fett also starts out morally grey, but he ends up very much aligned with the forces of evil.

Compare that to the PT. Are clones good? Evil? What about separatists? Jengo Fett? It's a mess, even by the end. Do I cheer on the clones saving the Jedi, even though I know they're part of Palpatine's plan? That lack of someone to cheer on is a huge difference between the trilogies.

I don't think there's anything to cheer about in the prequels. I mean, in the moment we can cheer Anakin blowing up the droid control ship. or the clones kicking seperatist droid butts. But the point of the prequels is how the Republic fell into becoming an empire and the personal fall of Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader. It wasn't going to be a happy happy trilogy like the first one. Does that kind of moral ambiguity mean it wasn't Star Warsy? It felt Star Warsy to me. Just not as good as the OT, which I feel were better films for other reasons.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 11, 2024, 04:46:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 11, 2024, 01:06:44 PMI think to some degree, there need to be some clear good guys and bad guys in Star Wars. It's science fantasy, not science fiction, and there should be monsters (either real or metaphorical) to fight.

Correct in the first part, but wrong in the second.  Star Wars absolutely needs a Manichean divide between good and bad guys... at least if you are talking O.T.  And that's the problem with the second statement.  Star Wars has never been just one thing.

I agree that Star Wars has never been just one thing. It's a loose cluster of different qualities, mostly by similarity to the Original Trilogy. But even so, that doesn't mean that there aren't some things that feel more Star-Wars-y and some that feel more out of place. Like any art, that's subjective, but not arbitrary - and I think a lot of people would agree at least about generalities.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 11, 2024, 04:46:04 PMSo who is your audience?

I don't know. I'm sure there's lots of overlap and variation among the various subsets of Star Wars fandom that I'm not aware of.  But then again, this isn't a serious business venture, or a sociology thesis.

I'm just thinking out loud, and curious about people's reactions - especially about the options for different Jedi who aren't like the prequel Jedi.

I was over and done by the end of the second prequel movie; never even bothered to watch the third.  I hated the prequels and everything I've heard about the movies released after those has done nothing to improve my opinion.