http://archive.org/details/dragon_magazine
Did I totally miss an announcement somewhere? Holy crap, this is awesome. I already had the Issues 1-250 CD-ROMs, but this... How are they getting around the Knights of the Dinner Table BS? Or is it because this is for SCIENCE!!! ?
Obviously a mistake on their part.
Quote from: estar;630531Obviously a mistake on their part.
One I will be taking full advantage of :)
I have the PDF resources but this is neat. Thanks!
(I've a feeling this will come down soon enough...)
Is this an official site? Is it legal?
It's the Internet Archive. Their goal is to catalog the history of the internet. They've been crawling websites for years and caching them. It's actually a blessing. Many owners discontinue their sites for various reasons, but the IA sometimes (fingers crossed) has a copy of them. You can search for them on the Wayback Machine.
For instance, here's a snapshot of TheRPGSite (http://web.archive.org/web/20060812212539/http://therpgsite.com/) on Aug 12, 2006.
They do the same thing with books, images, etc. I think it's legal or they would have been shut down years ago.
Quote from: RPGPundit;631082Is this an official site? Is it legal?
In theory everything on archive.org is supposed to be public domain or fair use backups.
In practice a lot of shit winds up in the media archive that's just straight up pirated, and no one's bothered to challenge it yet.
Chances are it's all illegal.
They also have other gaming mags posted, like Ares, Polyhedron, and others.
Even if it isn't illegal, all WotC has to do is send an official looking letter and that's the end of that. Chilling effect and so forth.
OTOH, if they were pirated recent movies (or sports)), we'd see a full military style raid on their HQ like that file sharing thing in New Zealand whose name escapes me.
But apparently some of these Dragons are being sold by Paizo still (I guess the later ones they produced). It's one thing for books and magazines that are not being sold and long out of print to go up on an archive, regardless of the laws, and stuff that companies themselves have put into electronic form and are selling.
I'd like to see this defended under Fair Use but unfortunately, I think there Ain't No Way. :P
Reading some of those brings back found memories. I used to have the local newsagent order it (along with White Dwarf) and my grandparents would pick it up.
Sigh. I wish Wizards would release a paper version of Dragon/Dungeon again. Not going to happen, but still they should.
The Internet Archive has been around for a while and is incredibly useful.
They are almost certainly illegal under the ridiculous current copyright laws, but I think they get by in that they don't deliberately target any content, are for research purposes, and take stuff down whenever anyone asks.
Quote from: elfandghost;631151Reading some of those brings back found memories. I used to have the local newsagent order it (along with White Dwarf) and my grandparents would pick it up.
Sigh. I wish Wizards would release a paper version of Dragon/Dungeon again. Not going to happen, but still they should.
Use to love those, though I didn't preorder, just picked up back issues that looked interesting at the gaming store. These days, I'd be happy with a .pdf magazine from Paizo, wouldn't touch anything from Wizards.
Wizards should release those for free full stop, most of the articles are about unsupported game systems anyway.
Anyone remember the forum?
Ye gods we used to have arguments in a printed publication!
Haha!
Quote from: The Traveller;631155Wizards should release those for free full stop, most of the articles are about unsupported game systems anyway.
Anyone remember the forum?
Ye gods we used to have arguments in a printed publication!
Haha!
It's like clicking on a discussion thread and it taking 30 days to load! :P
Wow, that's pretty cool. I need to send that link to a few friends of mine who've been looking for rare back issues. Thanks for the tip!
I've got the Dragon Magazine Archive CD set around here somewhere, but ever since we moved, I haven't been able to find it. It's too bad they never did that for Dungeon. I'd buy that in a heartbeat.
Since the internet archive is historical record, I'm not going to delete the link; I presume this is stuff that was at least once being freely offered on an official site?
RPGPundit
Since this thread has the go ahead to exist here are links to all the files, sorted by file type (pdf, epub, txt, mobi, etc...) and issue.
Should be easier to find what you want (or just copy all the links into a D/L manager and save a lot of hassle)
-LINK REMOVED by admin-
PDFs start at line 1533
Quote from: RPGPundit;631514Since the internet archive is historical record, I'm not going to delete the link; I presume this is stuff that was at least once being freely offered on an official site?
RPGPundit
I know the Ray Winninger Dungeoncraft articles were once free at the official site, so I believe that the rest were as well. Of course, it was
after the official publication date, since they didn't want to cut into their sales, but still...
Quote from: RPGPundit;631514Since the internet archive is historical record, I'm not going to delete the link; I presume this is stuff that was at least once being freely offered on an official site?
It almost certainly wasn't. But in any case, the link is not pointing to the Wayback Machine (the part of archive.org that archives web pages, but to the "magazine rack" section, which includes some public domain magazines, but also some not-so-public domain magazines, most of which appear to be gaming and SF magazines (Dragon, Polyhedron, Ares.) I see they have copies of Crazy magazine, a Mad magazine knock-off published by Marvel in the '70s.
The Internet Archive is claiming status as a library archiving cultural artifacts; whether the official position includes "archiving" copyright materials, or the Dragon magazines ad others were uploaded illegally by a random user, I don't know.
(Edit to add: Check out the link to the magazine rack (http://archive.org/details/magazine_rack) and tell me those titles are all legal...)
It kind of bothers me, because archive.org has a lot of public domain and donated copyright materials (like the Prelinger Archive) that we'd lose access to if the website were taken down by legal problems. Whoever uploads the copyright materials without permission is endangering the entire archive.
At least one of the Dragon issues is the same truncated version (no cover, no adds, much of the issue missing) available via torrent.
Probably, these were available from non-official sources and were uploaded.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lFqbhZxDeCY/T43copN7GNI/AAAAAAAAA-A/Yr0hTSHudLc/s1600/beating-dead-horse.gif)
Holy crap STARLOG! *yoink*
Quote from: thedungeondelver;631563Holy crap STARLOG! *yoink*
Yeah, I saw that, too. And even though I worry about how these uploads threaten the site in general, I remember Starlog had a pretty good series on doing your own special effects that I wish I could read again. So I'll probably wind up looking for those.
Hey, I paid for them once, so I'm entitled, right?
Quote from: talysman;631530It kind of bothers me, because archive.org has a lot of public domain and donated copyright materials (like the Prelinger Archive) that we'd lose access to if the website were taken down by legal problems. Whoever uploads the copyright materials without permission is endangering the entire archive.
If they are following the law, they can benefit as a network provider under Safe Harbor provisions of the Digital Millenium Act. Of course, that's a big if. A lot of folks rely on hearsay and then find they opened themselves to a lawsuit.
It used to be quite easy to upload stuff to archive.org, I don't know about now.
I would also guess that these have been illegally posted. I don't see this as any kind of license to help yourself. PDFs and the ability to sell digital goods means stuff like this need never go out of print. Hasbro and Paizo could always come to an understanding about PDFs of stuff that came out later than the 250 Issues CD. Id sure like to get those myself, and Dungeon too.
Quote from: talysman;631682Yeah, I saw that, too. And even though I worry about how these uploads threaten the site in general, I remember Starlog had a pretty good series on doing your own special effects that I wish I could read again. So I'll probably wind up looking for those.
Hey, I paid for them once, so I'm entitled, right?
does Starlog even exist anymore as a magazine or a company though? if not those might be safe. I wish we could find out one way or the other about the Dragon issues...
Quote from: thedungeondelver;631694does Starlog even exist anymore as a magazine or a company though? if not those might be safe. I wish we could find out one way or the other about the Dragon issues...
Well, now we're getting into the issue of how the magazine handled rights. Did it buy all rights from the authors of the articles it published, or did it file the copyrights and sign most of the unused rights back to the authors? The latter is the usual procedure, in which case, any of the authors of Starlog articles -- for example, David Gerrold, who wrote a column -- could accuse archive.org of copyright infringement.
If Starlog treated articles as "work for hire" and retained all rights, then the rights would have been transferred to The Brooklyn Company, which currently owns Fangoria (still in circulation, I think.)
While looking up that last detail, I found out that a warehouse fire destroyed all the back issues of both Fangoria and Starlog, so apparently private collections and these illegal PDFs are the only way to get old issues of Starlog. Bummer.
This is how I view this thread:
colwebbsfmc: "Psst. I found a pot of gold, and I am sharing it with everyone, as long as I don't get in trouble for it."
"Bunch of people: "Cool, thanks!"
RPGPunditCop: "As long as you're cool about it, I'll look the other way"
SJBenoist: "Hey EVERYONE, HE FOUND A POT OF GOLD, AND IT'S TOTALLY ILLEGAL!"
jhkim: "Yeah, TOTALLY ILLEGAL GOLD RIGHT OVER THERE!"
RPGPunditCop: "I said be cool guys"
talysman: "IT'S SO TOTALLY ILLEGAL OH MY GOD, LOOK OVER HERE, ILLEGAL GOLD!"
Mistwell: "Shut the fuck up about it already guys!"
Daddy Warpig: "YES I VERIFIED IT'S ILLEGAL GOLD!"
Lynn: "TOTALLY ILLEGAL GOLD"
talysman: "YEAH LET ME EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHICH LAWS THIS BREAKS".
Fucking nerds, high intelligence, low wisdom, thinking showing off their knowledge is more important than leaving well enough alone!
(http://www.islandcrisis.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/double-facepalm.jpg)
Quote from: Mistwell;631707This is how I view this thread:
colwebbsfmc: "Psst. I found a pot of gold, and I am sharing it with everyone, as long as I don't get in trouble for it."
"Bunch of people: "Cool, thanks!"
RPGPunditCop: "As long as you're cool about it, I'll look the other way"
SJBenoist: "Hey EVERYONE, HE FOUND A POT OF GOLD, AND IT'S TOTALLY ILLEGAL!"
jhkim: "Yeah, TOTALLY ILLEGAL GOLD RIGHT OVER THERE!"
RPGPunditCop: "I said be cool guys"
talysman: "IT'S SO TOTALLY ILLEGAL OH MY GOD, LOOK OVER HERE, ILLEGAL GOLD!"
Mistwell: "Shut the fuck up about it already guys!"
Daddy Warpig: "YES I VERIFIED IT'S ILLEGAL GOLD!"
Lynn: "TOTALLY ILLEGAL GOLD"
talysman: "YEAH LET ME EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHICH LAWS THIS BREAKS".
Fucking nerds, high intelligence, low wisdom, thinking showing off their knowledge is more important than leaving well enough alone!
Aren't you a lawyer? Seems a bit odd to me that a lawyer would encourage illegal activity as long as you don't make a big fuss about it to draw attention.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;631712Aren't you a lawyer? Seems a bit odd to me that a lawyer would encourage illegal activity as long as you don't make a big fuss about it to draw attention.
Why?
Quote from: Mistwell;631707This is how I view this thread:
colwebbsfmc: "Psst. I found a pot of gold, and I am sharing it with everyone, as long as I don't get in trouble for it."
"Bunch of people: "Cool, thanks!"
RPGPunditCop: "As long as you're cool about it, I'll look the other way"
SJBenoist: "Hey EVERYONE, HE FOUND A POT OF GOLD, AND IT'S TOTALLY ILLEGAL!"
jhkim: "Yeah, TOTALLY ILLEGAL GOLD RIGHT OVER THERE!"
RPGPunditCop: "I said be cool guys"
talysman: "IT'S SO TOTALLY ILLEGAL OH MY GOD, LOOK OVER HERE, ILLEGAL GOLD!"
Mistwell: "Shut the fuck up about it already guys!"
Daddy Warpig: "YES I VERIFIED IT'S ILLEGAL GOLD!"
Lynn: "TOTALLY ILLEGAL GOLD"
talysman: "YEAH LET ME EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHICH LAWS THIS BREAKS".
You forgot:
Mistwell: NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO ME ME ME! SO I WILL POST A BIG PICTURE!
Quote from: talysman;631734You forgot:
Mistwell: NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO ME ME ME! SO I WILL POST A BIG PICTURE!
I don't control the size of the picture. Most vBulletin systems do that for you. This one is a tad old and does not have that mod installed. So, worst you could say is I am too lazy to see what it looks like once posted, then go back and edit it by reformatting the picture in a secondary picture server. That is, unless someone I like asks me to, like Benoist :) That said, if you really would prefer a smaller picture, all you have to do is ask nicely and I will reformat it much smaller. The point of the picture was not to be big.
Still no Suppressed Transmissions. :(
Quote from: Mistwell;631707This is how I view this thread:
colwebbsfmc: "Psst. I found a pot of gold, and I am sharing it with everyone, as long as I don't get in trouble for it."
"Bunch of people: "Cool, thanks!"
RPGPunditCop: "As long as you're cool about it, I'll look the other way"
SJBenoist: "Hey EVERYONE, HE FOUND A POT OF GOLD, AND IT'S TOTALLY ILLEGAL!"
jhkim: "Yeah, TOTALLY ILLEGAL GOLD RIGHT OVER THERE!"
RPGPunditCop: "I said be cool guys"
talysman: "IT'S SO TOTALLY ILLEGAL OH MY GOD, LOOK OVER HERE, ILLEGAL GOLD!"
Mistwell: "Shut the fuck up about it already guys!"
Daddy Warpig: "YES I VERIFIED IT'S ILLEGAL GOLD!"
Lynn: "TOTALLY ILLEGAL GOLD"
talysman: "YEAH LET ME EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHICH LAWS THIS BREAKS".
Fucking nerds, high intelligence, low wisdom, thinking showing off their knowledge is more important than leaving well enough alone!
Ah sure feck it, Wizards would be off their heads to crack down on this, most of it is for unsupported game systems anyway. There comes a time when karma is more important than IP you'll never make a red cent off anyway.
Quote from: talysman;631734You forgot:
Mistwell: NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO ME ME ME! SO I WILL POST A BIG PICTURE!
Lol, beat me to it.
Quote from: The Traveller;631744Still no Suppressed Transmissions. :(
Ah sure feck it, Wizards would be off their heads to crack down on this, most of it is for unsupported game systems anyway. There comes a time when karma is more important than IP you'll never make a red cent off anyway.
See "Games Workshop" versus "Space Marine".
Quote from: Mistwell;631722Why?
Seriously?
Quote from: thedungeondelver;631760See "Games Workshop" versus "Space Marine".
There's still plenty of mileage in Space Marine though, not to excuse the shenanigans. How much is anyone ever going to pay for an article on the Ecology of the Behir as interpreted by 2e?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;631762Seriously?
It may have been a lawyer who originally uploaded those to the Internet Archive. :D
Quote from: Piestrio;631518Since this thread has the go ahead to exist here are links to all the files, sorted by file type (pdf, epub, txt, mobi, etc...) and issue.
Should be easier to find what you want (or just copy all the links into a D/L manager and save a lot of hassle)
-link removed-
PDFs start at line 1533
I gave the goahead to link to the Internet Archive. Not to start posting filehosting stuff which may or may not have the same materials.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Sacrosanct;631762Seriously?
Yes, seriously. What's your line of thinking?
I'm gonna trust that Archive.org knows what they are doing.
And thank them for it.
Quote from: Mistwell;632140Yes, seriously. What's your line of thinking? What is it about someone being a lawyer that makes you think they encourage lawful behavior, even when the unlawful behavior would be harmless and useful and go unnoticed, amongst their hobby friends more than anyone else? I thought it an odd statement. I mean, the popular joke is that lawyers are the least ethical professionals in society next to politicians, and yet you hold them to a higher standard than others, so I trying to understand your thinking in saying that.
OH, I don't know. Maybe because everyone else doesn't take an oath.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;632147OH, I don't know. Maybe because everyone else doesn't take an oath.
You take an oath to support the Constitution. Do you see "Cool, my peers can download old issues of Dragon which are no longer published, and which WOTC doesn't seem to care about anymore, so they can improve their games and have more fun and add to discussions" as "not supporting the Constitution"? I don't.
I don't torrent stuff, I don't encourage people to download stuff that is currently being published/sold, but this seems pretty harmless to me. And I don't see that as a threat to our Constitution.
Quote from: Mistwell;632178You take an oath to support the Constitution. Do you see "Cool, my peers can download old issues of Dragon which are no longer published, and which WOTC doesn't seem to care about anymore, so they can improve their games and have more fun and add to discussions" as "not supporting the Constitution"? I don't.
I don't torrent stuff, I don't encourage people to download stuff that is currently being published/sold, but this seems pretty harmless to me. And I don't see that as a threat to our Constitution.
The oath implies pretty strongly a code of ethics, if not outright spelled out (depending on state). Encouraging others to violate copyright law isn't exactly considered "upholding a moral and ethical state of behavior" as defined by the Dominant View.
so yeah, I find it a bit surprising.
And it turns out this is officially unofficially totally not legit, probably:
http://www.examiner.com/article/is-every-issue-of-dragon-and-polyhedron-magazines-really-free-online
...and it's gone.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;638646...and it's gone.
Well, I guess that answers that question, then.
It's like Snuffleupagus...I missed it again!
HOLY FUCK. THE BELL SYSTEM TECHNICAL JOURNAL.
Fuck everything else, that's fucking awesome.
was neat while it lasted. now if only WotC could re-release the cd-rom archive. . . yeah, like that'll happen. more like they'd put it online behind a paywall, first.
Quote from: beeber;639028was neat while it lasted. now if only WotC could re-release the cd-rom archive. . . yeah, like that'll happen. more like they'd put it online behind a paywall, first.
To be fair, my understanding is that there were very real licensing issues involved with releasing the back issues electronically. License deals for all the original content were done long before digital distribution was a twinkle in the internet's eye.
Quote from: Bobloblah;639029To be fair, my understanding is that there were very real licensing issues involved with releasing the back issues electronically. License deals for all the original content were done long before digital distribution was a twinkle in the internet's eye.
Yeah, for something like Dragon that could be a real bitch.