Humans can learn martial arts, becoming exponentially more dangerous to other humans in the process. How martially skilled could an attack dog become, given the ideal trainer, breeder, and no ethical limits?
Specifically: Could a dog increase its bites-per-second? Its dodging ability? Could it specifically move to throw a man by entangling his legs? Can a dog be trained somehow to have a harder bite? Can a dog be trained to more accurately tear a man apart as by biting the throat, crotch, hamstring, wrist, etc?
What is the upper limit on how martially dangerous a dog could be?
Google Belgian Malinois.
IRL Special Forces K-9 units are extremely lethal. A single dog can clear a room of multiple armed men in under a minute. Add to that, their agility and ability to read body language and you are going to have a really hard time getting a good shot at one. We are talking the strength of a single dog capable of completely taking out a squad. Then they work really well in pairs and small packs to the point where the effectiveness is exponential.
There are dogs taught to kill by biting vulnerable spots but most are trained to incapacitate. Even the USN Seals use them more for controlling rather than killing.
Dogs can be trained to do pretty much any of those things. Dogs have also been bred specifically to excel at some of them (such as having wider jaws to more easily encompass a throat, along with a stronger bite force).
Since this is an rpg forum, I'm assuming you're asking in the context of a game. In that case, just go with the rule-of-cool and give the dog whatever abilities you think it should have.
Here's a vid worth looking at:
Note also, they are not showing you all their tricks.
Quote from: BadApple on February 18, 2025, 03:13:20 PMGoogle Belgian Malinois.
IRL Special Forces K-9 units are extremely lethal. A single dog can clear a room of multiple armed men in under a minute. Add to that, their agility and ability to read body language and you are going to have a really hard time getting a good shot at one. We are talking the strength of a single dog capable of completely taking out a squad. Then they work really well in pairs and small packs to the point where the effectiveness is exponential.
There are dogs taught to kill by biting vulnerable spots but most are trained to incapacitate. Even the USN Seals use them more for controlling rather than killing.
Really now? a single K-9 unit can clear a whole armed squad in a minute? that's pretty damn impressive. would there be any historical or even recent examples?
I'm currently fleshing out the supernatural departments of Govt' Agencies of my setting, I imagine sicking a dog like that would be very effective against a lot of spooks.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on February 18, 2025, 03:23:23 PMQuote from: BadApple on February 18, 2025, 03:13:20 PMGoogle Belgian Malinois.
IRL Special Forces K-9 units are extremely lethal. A single dog can clear a room of multiple armed men in under a minute. Add to that, their agility and ability to read body language and you are going to have a really hard time getting a good shot at one. We are talking the strength of a single dog capable of completely taking out a squad. Then they work really well in pairs and small packs to the point where the effectiveness is exponential.
There are dogs taught to kill by biting vulnerable spots but most are trained to incapacitate. Even the USN Seals use them more for controlling rather than killing.
Really now? a single K-9 unit can clear a whole armed squad in a minute? that's pretty damn impressive. would there be any historical or even recent examples?
I'm currently fleshing out the supernatural departments Govt'Agencies of my setting, I imagine sicking dog like that would be very effective against a lot of spooks.
Several stories about it have come to surface from the GWoT efforts by several special forces units of several nations. To be fair, it's more a dog and handler team rather than just the dog in most of the accounts I've come across. Also, it's more about fracturing unit cohesion rather than wounding and killing every member. Still, they've been very successful at turning CQB engagements and wrecking small units almost single-handedly.
Jump on youtube and do searched for military working dogs and special forces dogs. They won't show you a lot but they will give you a hint as to what these dogs can do IRL.
Quote from: BadApple on February 18, 2025, 03:34:11 PMSeveral stories about it have come to surface from the GWoT efforts by several special forces units of several nations. To be fair, it's more a dog and handler team rather than just the dog in most of the accounts I've come across. Also, it's more about fracturing unit cohesion rather than wounding and killing every member. Still, they've been very successful at turning CQB engagements and wrecking small units almost single-handedly.
Jump on youtube and do searched for military working dogs and special forces dogs. They won't show you a lot but they will give you a hint as to what these dogs can do IRL.
I see, that makes sense, CQB with a dog and human handler pair does sound like a nightmare, I'm reminded of the K-9 units in Starship Troopers (the novel) where the implication was the neodogs and humans had a slight telepathic connection. which made them second only in effectiveness to the Mobile Infantry.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on February 18, 2025, 03:23:23 PMI imagine sicking a dog like that would be very effective against a lot of spooks.
The problem is that dogs trained like that would be incredibly expensive, it takes a ton of breeding and training to get a dog up to that point, to where I would think the spooks would be the only ones with access to them.
Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 18, 2025, 03:49:24 PMQuote from: Socratic-DM on February 18, 2025, 03:23:23 PMI imagine sicking a dog like that would be very effective against a lot of spooks.
The problem is that dogs trained like that would be incredibly expensive, it takes a ton of breeding and training to get a dog up to that point, to where I would think the spooks would be the only ones with access to them.
I meant spooks as in supernatural creatures, not spooks as in Feds, though vampire dogs would be pretty deadly also.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 18, 2025, 02:25:05 PMHumans can learn martial arts, becoming exponentially more dangerous to other humans in the process. How martially skilled could an attack dog become, given the ideal trainer, breeder, and no ethical limits?
Specifically: Could a dog increase its bites-per-second? Its dodging ability? Could it specifically move to throw a man by entangling his legs? Can a dog be trained somehow to have a harder bite? Can a dog be trained to more accurately tear a man apart as by biting the throat, crotch, hamstring, wrist, etc?
What is the upper limit on how martially dangerous a dog could be?
Greetings!
Yeah, my friend! Professionally trained War Dogs are just damned awesome! As other members have already attested, there are numerous videos of trained war dogs doing jaw-dropping feats in just *Training Videos*. Many! I've seen a Belgian Malinois take a running charge from say, 100 feet or more out, in literally *seconds* jackhammer some 300 pound man seeking to lead a little girl off from a park area. To give you an idea of how fast the dog hits him, it really is not an exaggeration to liken the dog attack to be like watching a bullet strike. From the dog's command release--at a standstill--the dog hits this 300 pound man before he so much ass gets *three steps*. The man is just taken down like a sack, and threatened with throat-crushing. DONE. The dog makes it all look laughably easy, for the dog anyways. The man's height, weight, strength--all mean nothing. The man might as well be a big sack of mashed potatoes. Furthermore, the dog bites and attacks with jaw-dropping speed and agility. The enemy man cannot keep up or defend himself in the slightest. Strike, boom, bite, the man is down and screaming. THAT FAST. The human eye can barely keep up with how fast the dog's movements and attacks are, once the contact has been made after the initial strike.
There are also airborne goggles made for dogs, special packs, and other gear to help protect the dog, or to make it easier for the Handler for example to lift the dog up walls, carry the dog, and so on. I've seen dogs jump from flying aircraft, roll, come upright in seconds, make a long charge, and attack a man. So much like watching a rifle being fired, in just slightly slower motion. Dogs jump into the ocean from helicopters and pull people to safety, and more. Absolutely incredible feats and abilities! A dog's strength and power is nothing like a Human being's. The dog's bite force can break your arm in one bite. The dog can bring you to the floor even when you stand and face the attack. Once you are on the ground, well, you really become the dog's chew toy as the dog leaps and jerks and twists far faster than a Human can even register to keep up. If the training men were not wearing thick protective clothing, blood would be flying everywhere, and the targeted men would be screaming as the dog unleashes savage bite after savage bite!
That is the power and terror inspired by *JUST ONE* war dog. Two or more, working in a team? Yeah. GAME OVER.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 18, 2025, 03:49:24 PMQuote from: Socratic-DM on February 18, 2025, 03:23:23 PMI imagine sicking a dog like that would be very effective against a lot of spooks.
The problem is that dogs trained like that would be incredibly expensive, it takes a ton of breeding and training to get a dog up to that point, to where I would think the spooks would be the only ones with access to them.
For the best of the best dogs, it's about $250K per individual.
OTOH, a well motivated individual with some understanding of dog training and a lot of patience can get incredible results out of a pup from the pound. Over the years, I've known a few guys that were dog trainers that were really good and I have seen just exceptional dogs from mutts.
Not every dog is capable of a high level of training so I'm not saying that every single dog is a furry warrior ready to be unleashed but there's more than will ever meet those capable of training them.
Quote from: BadApple on February 18, 2025, 04:28:49 PMOTOH, a well motivated individual with some understanding of dog training and a lot of patience can get incredible results out of a pup from the pound. Over the years, I've known a few guys that were dog trainers that were really good and I have seen just exceptional dogs from mutts.
Not every dog is capable of a high level of training so I'm not saying that every single dog is a furry warrior ready to be unleashed but there's more than will ever meet those capable of training them.
Fair. For something of a heightened setting, having a skilled trainer and a decent line on puppies would be enough to justify a PC having an attack dog companion I suppose.
Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 18, 2025, 05:17:11 PMQuote from: BadApple on February 18, 2025, 04:28:49 PMOTOH, a well motivated individual with some understanding of dog training and a lot of patience can get incredible results out of a pup from the pound. Over the years, I've known a few guys that were dog trainers that were really good and I have seen just exceptional dogs from mutts.
Not every dog is capable of a high level of training so I'm not saying that every single dog is a furry warrior ready to be unleashed but there's more than will ever meet those capable of training them.
Fair. For something of a heightened setting, having a skilled trainer and a decent line on puppies would be enough to justify a PC having an attack dog companion I suppose.
About 15 years ago, my wife got a chihuahua that was about 2 years old and lived it's entire life up to that point in a cage. It was following commands, finding my daughter for me when I asked, fetching my shoes for me when I said it's time for a walk, and I never had to have her on a leash with in three months. I'm not a dog trainer or even particularly a dog guy. She was just a run of the mill dumb chihuahua. What really happened is that I was spending 15 hours a day with her and through that we learned to communicate and trust each other. I absolutely believe that it would have rode to hell and back with me and done everything it could to keep me safe. In truth, it could have been much more if it had a trainer that was better than me.
I have seen dogs that were taught by an 8yo girl to dance ballet. I knew a police dog that wasn't really a police dog that would just ride in the patrol car with it's owner that was more disciplined than a marine and learned how to be useful OJT. There are a number of YT videos of normal people that have trained their dogs for all kinds of things.
It's not about an exceptional person, exceptional skills, or an exceptional dog. It's all about spending time with, learning to trust, and developing communication with the dog. The vast majority of dogs never see their potential. However, if you have an exceptional dog and an exceptionally skilled trainer, the ceiling is much higher.
Dragon had a few articles on attack dogs and more aggressive familiars. Even at least one on exotic dogs other races have.
I think Shadowrun had some as well. Probably other RPGs too.
In a more gaming context. Do trained dogs jump up and 'tackle' to bring someone down so they can get at the face and neck? Or are they like untrained dogs in that they go for the legs and try to pull them out from under you?
Quote from: Ruprecht on February 19, 2025, 09:12:39 AMIn a more gaming context. Do trained dogs jump up and 'tackle' to bring someone down so they can get at the face and neck? Or are they like untrained dogs in that they go for the legs and try to pull them out from under you?
Why would this be different "in a gaming context" vs a real world context? A trained dog is just that: trained. It will do whatever it is trained to do.
I suppose the question comes down to whether a dog that is trained to generally "attack" in your game would be different than a dog trained to "go for the throat". How granular do you want to be? How granular is combat already?
I was trying to get info on how it would be handled mechanically as well as the factual description of if/what the dogs do.
Quote from: Ruprecht on February 19, 2025, 11:12:46 AMI was trying to get info on how it would be handled mechanically as well as the factual description of if/what the dogs do.
OK well I guess factually the dog will follow its training, though perhaps different breeds will naturally tend toward one method or another and thus be easier or more difficult to train the way you want.
For gaming purposes, my combat isn't quite that granular, so whether the dog "went for the throat" or not is descriptive flavor only.
However, whether the dog attacks to
harm or attacks to
trip does matter in my game, so tripping specifically I would address as a separate trick from attack.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 18, 2025, 02:25:05 PMHumans can learn martial arts, becoming exponentially more dangerous to other humans in the process. How martially skilled could an attack dog become, given the ideal trainer, breeder, and no ethical limits?
Specifically: Could a dog increase its bites-per-second? Its dodging ability? Could it specifically move to throw a man by entangling his legs? Can a dog be trained somehow to have a harder bite? Can a dog be trained to more accurately tear a man apart as by biting the throat, crotch, hamstring, wrist, etc?
What is the upper limit on how martially dangerous a dog could be?
What setting? What system?
Quote from: Domina on February 20, 2025, 06:43:10 PMQuote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 18, 2025, 02:25:05 PMHumans can learn martial arts, becoming exponentially more dangerous to other humans in the process. How martially skilled could an attack dog become, given the ideal trainer, breeder, and no ethical limits?
Specifically: Could a dog increase its bites-per-second? Its dodging ability? Could it specifically move to throw a man by entangling his legs? Can a dog be trained somehow to have a harder bite? Can a dog be trained to more accurately tear a man apart as by biting the throat, crotch, hamstring, wrist, etc?
What is the upper limit on how martially dangerous a dog could be?
What setting? What system?
Any setting, any system. The more the merrier. Ideally a system that aims for realism.
That doesn't make any sense. There isn't any such thing as "should" generally for game systems.
If you don't have a particular game in mind, there isn't an answer to your question.
Quote from: Domina on February 20, 2025, 08:50:49 PMThat doesn't make any sense. There isn't any such thing as "should" generally for game systems.
If you don't have a particular game in mind, there isn't an answer to your question.
Sure it does. In any given game there is a certain quantity of realism. The question is, given that quantity of realism, how deadly could such a dog be?
We can compare the reality of such a dog, a hypothetical dog even, with a system such as AD&D. How dangerous should the ideal attack dog be in an AD&D world, using that system? Could the ideal attack dog take down an armored knight?
If we say that AD&D is all nonsense, with heroic characters who can shrug off a pack of ideal attack dogs while wearing nothing but their skivvies, well, then, I guess the question can't be answered. It's all bullshit anyway. But if the game even pretends to be realistic, the question should be answerable in that game's terms.
He has a point. There are some game systems where all weapons do the same damage. So in that case, the dog would so the same damage as any other weapon. Regardless if it attacked or someone threw it at a person.
Quote from: JeremyR on February 21, 2025, 12:58:51 AMHe has a point. There are some game systems where all weapons do the same damage. So in that case, the dog would so the same damage as any other weapon. Regardless if it attacked or someone threw it at a person.
All weapons do the same damage? Like a sword, a bullet, a cannonball, and a dog all do 1d6 hp damage? I'm not familiar with these game systems.
Greetings!
Geesus. Well, faced off against a fully-armoured knight, a normal war dog probably wouldn't do much, certainly not in a lethal or fatal sense. The war dog could however, topple a standing armoured knight and bring them to the ground, and thereby keep the armoured knight busy with defending themselves and harassing them. The war dog naturally goes for the genitals, the throat, and the face for killing and wounding attacks.
Against an unarmoured opponent or someone armoured in something like leather, well, such an opponent is fucked. Watch the dog videos, as I described. Trained war dogs run and leap like a bullet being shot from a gun. From a stand still, trained war dogs are able to accelerate to incredible, blurrying speeds and stroke a standing or moving man with absolutely incredible force, easily sweeping the target off their feet and to the ground. Once the target man is on the ground, well, the war dog's incredible speed and agility makes the Human look like a slow sack of mashed potatoes, helpless from again, a blitzkrieg of the dog's attacks. Biting, turning, biting and herking the Human's limbs, within just a few seconds, the Human is made entirely helpless. Save for the war dog's handlers, such Human targets would easily be ripped to shreds in moments and killed by the war dogs. On the off chance that a struggling human got lucky and survived, they would no doubt suffer severe and bloody wounds, and need to be hospitalized very quickly in such circumstances. If they were lucky, and exceptionally fierce and strong. Women, old people, adolescents, kids, most average men? They are all certainly fucked.
I've seen dozens of these kinds of videos. Human beings are at a fatal disadvantage, and in moments, they really get handled hard by the war dogs. The war dogs strike so hard and so quickly, the Human target cannot even keep up to really defend themselves.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on February 21, 2025, 11:14:30 AMGreetings!
Geesus. Well, faced off against a fully-armoured knight, a normal war dog probably wouldn't do much, certainly not in a lethal or fatal sense. The war dog could however, topple a standing armoured knight and bring them to the ground, and thereby keep the armoured knight busy with defending themselves and harassing them. The war dog naturally goes for the genitals, the throat, and the face for killing and wounding attacks.
Against an unarmoured opponent or someone armoured in something like leather, well, such an opponent is fucked. Watch the dog videos, as I described. Trained war dogs run and leap like a bullet being shot from a gun. From a stand still, trained war dogs are able to accelerate to incredible, blurrying speeds and stroke a standing or moving man with absolutely incredible force, easily sweeping the target off their feet and to the ground. Once the target man is on the ground, well, the war dog's incredible speed and agility makes the Human look like a slow sack of mashed potatoes, helpless from again, a blitzkrieg of the dog's attacks. Biting, turning, biting and herking the Human's limbs, within just a few seconds, the Human is made entirely helpless. Save for the war dog's handlers, such Human targets would easily be ripped to shreds in moments and killed by the war dogs. On the off chance that a struggling human got lucky and survived, they would no doubt suffer severe and bloody wounds, and need to be hospitalized very quickly in such circumstances. If they were lucky, and exceptionally fierce and strong. Women, old people, adolescents, kids, most average men? They are all certainly fucked.
I've seen dozens of these kinds of videos. Human beings are at a fatal disadvantage, and in moments, they really get handled hard by the war dogs. The war dogs strike so hard and so quickly, the Human target cannot even keep up to really defend themselves.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Thanks for all the info, SHARK!
From the videos it looks like a man with a melee weapon would get one (1) chance at disabling the dog before it's on him. Break its jaw with a baseball bat and how can it bite? But hitting it at the right time, with the right power, in the right place, would seem to require a high level of skill and cool under fire. And, if there are multiple dogs, he could only disable one of them before the others are on him.
Bruce Lee vs a Belgian Malinois? Any takers?
Neoplatonist1
From discussions with a friend of mine who owns a "maligator" and did some training with it I'll make two observations;
First, for a fantasy setting, don't discount the near ubiquity of the gambeson in mitigating the lethality of dog bites (just look at the protective gear used in training the dogs... it's essentially a modern gambeson).
It wouldn't save you from being knocked or dragged down, but it would certainly mute the piercing damage and the bulk and ability to slide would make a crushing bite grip harder to achieve.
Second, the weapon you need for dealing with a war dog is your backup; the dagger or hatchet or whatever other item you're carrying for when you end up on the ground grappling with a human opponent.
Basically, even if the dog doesn't outright disarm you (a trained war dog should probably have a bonus to disarm in whatever system you're using... a dog biting down on your arm, even if it's not able to do damage, is still 60-ish pounds of mass hanging off your arm) you would probably almost instinctively drop any weapon too big to be useful against the dog and, if you're not just panicking, try to reach for whatever you have that would help... a dagger is pretty ideal since it's head and therefore neck are pretty well attached to some part of your body.
Basically, war dogs in general should be built to exploit the grappling rules of whatever system you're using, with all the advantages and hindrances that implies.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 20, 2025, 11:13:12 PMQuote from: Domina on February 20, 2025, 08:50:49 PMThat doesn't make any sense. There isn't any such thing as "should" generally for game systems.
If you don't have a particular game in mind, there isn't an answer to your question.
Sure it does. In any given game there is a certain quantity of realism. The question is, given that quantity of realism, how deadly could such a dog be?
Right, and since that quantity is different for every game system, the question can be only answered for particular games.
You're allowed to actually read and think about a post before shitting out a stupid kneejerk response that doesn't address the actual point being made.
Quote from: Ruprecht on February 19, 2025, 11:12:46 AMI was trying to get info on how it would be handled mechanically as well as the factual description of if/what the dogs do.
Use the wolf's takedown move.
Bear in mind that dogs in a fantasy setting will be trained to deal with very different threats.
Like if someone is in robes or twiddling their fingers then go for the arms. Break the casting (in AD&D)
Look for weak points in armor or harry and try to flank/distract so the adventurer can get into position.
Quote from: Domina on February 21, 2025, 01:37:21 PMQuote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 20, 2025, 11:13:12 PMQuote from: Domina on February 20, 2025, 08:50:49 PMThat doesn't make any sense. There isn't any such thing as "should" generally for game systems.
If you don't have a particular game in mind, there isn't an answer to your question.
Sure it does. In any given game there is a certain quantity of realism. The question is, given that quantity of realism, how deadly could such a dog be?
Right, and since that quantity is different for every game system, the question can be only answered for particular games.
You're allowed to actually read and think about a post before shitting out a stupid kneejerk response that doesn't address the actual point being made.
Do you play particular games? If so, then feel free to answer the question in your particular game's terms. I'd be curious to see anyone's mechanical take on the question.
Modern war dogs are FAST, they need to hit before the gun can be brought to bear. They're plenty strong enough compared to modern people.
Historical war dogs were STRONG, they needed to take down a melee warrior possibly armored and hamstring horses, etc. Look at the Cane Corso and Neapolitan Mastiff for more like what a Roman War Dog was like, and Rottweiler for what a Roman herding dog was like.
With Rabies, even a small puncture wound bite from a poodle, would have potentially deadly consequences.
If you give them a katana, the sky's the limit!
Australian Cattle Dog.
Accept NO substitute. :)
There was a report in the UK that the Police took 19 bullets to take down an XL Bully Dog that broke out of its house and attacked someone in the street. Fortunately the victim survived, but is in hospital.
Yes, bred and trained attack dogs must be pretty fearsome.
Guess their use in war dropped off because they could not do much against formed troops - would have been terrifying in the rout and pursuit.
Quote from: zanshin on February 26, 2025, 03:37:06 AMThere was a report in the UK that the Police took 19 bullets to take down an XL Bully Dog
OK, but to be fair, what do they arm those bobbies with, .22's?
Quote from: zanshin on February 26, 2025, 03:37:06 AMGuess their use in war dropped off because they could not do much against formed troops - would have been terrifying in the rout and pursuit.
Massed accurate firearms is the answer to why a lot of things that had been successful tactics for millennia stopped being so effective. When most combat is close quarters (archers mostly just softened up targets rather than obliterated them outright), something like a dog is very useful.
A failure to understand the capabilities of massed repeating firearms (and gas, but mostly repeating firearms including machine guns) is what bogged World War 1 down into trench warfare and mass death to gain a handful of yards. Men were easier to convince to perform suicidal charges than dogs were, but massed battles using accurate ranged weapons made melee-only tactics nearly useless.
It's really only been with the return to skirmish warfare in our long occupation military operations where battles are often squad vs. squad (or equivalent) and often in the close combat distances of an urban environment that attack dogs value in military actions has returned.
They can get pretty lethal.
https://terminator.fandom.com/wiki/T-K90