Quote from: Ruprecht on February 19, 2025, 09:12:39 AMIn a more gaming context. Do trained dogs jump up and 'tackle' to bring someone down so they can get at the face and neck? Or are they like untrained dogs in that they go for the legs and try to pull them out from under you?

Why would this be different "in a gaming context" vs a real world context? A trained dog is just that: trained. It will do whatever it is trained to do.

I suppose the question comes down to whether a dog that is trained to generally "attack" in your game would be different than a dog trained to "go for the throat". How granular do you want to be? How granular is combat already?

I was trying to get info on how it would be handled mechanically as well as the factual description of if/what the dogs do.

Quote from: Ruprecht on February 19, 2025, 11:12:46 AMI was trying to get info on how it would be handled mechanically as well as the factual description of if/what the dogs do.

OK well I guess factually the dog will follow its training, though perhaps different breeds will naturally tend toward one method or another and thus be easier or more difficult to train the way you want.

For gaming purposes, my combat isn't quite that granular, so whether the dog "went for the throat" or not is descriptive flavor only.

However, whether the dog attacks to harm or attacks to trip does matter in my game, so tripping specifically I would address as a separate trick from attack.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 18, 2025, 02:25:05 PMHumans can learn martial arts, becoming exponentially more dangerous to other humans in the process. How martially skilled could an attack dog become, given the ideal trainer, breeder, and no ethical limits?

Specifically: Could a dog increase its bites-per-second? Its dodging ability? Could it specifically move to throw a man by entangling his legs? Can a dog be trained somehow to have a harder bite? Can a dog be trained to more accurately tear a man apart as by biting the throat, crotch, hamstring, wrist, etc?

What is the upper limit on how martially dangerous a dog could be?

What setting? What system?

Quote from: Domina on February 20, 2025, 06:43:10 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 18, 2025, 02:25:05 PMHumans can learn martial arts, becoming exponentially more dangerous to other humans in the process. How martially skilled could an attack dog become, given the ideal trainer, breeder, and no ethical limits?

Specifically: Could a dog increase its bites-per-second? Its dodging ability? Could it specifically move to throw a man by entangling his legs? Can a dog be trained somehow to have a harder bite? Can a dog be trained to more accurately tear a man apart as by biting the throat, crotch, hamstring, wrist, etc?

What is the upper limit on how martially dangerous a dog could be?

What setting? What system?

Any setting, any system. The more the merrier. Ideally a system that aims for realism.

That doesn't make any sense. There isn't any such thing as "should" generally for game systems.

If you don't have a particular game in mind, there isn't an answer to your question.

Quote from: Domina on February 20, 2025, 08:50:49 PMThat doesn't make any sense. There isn't any such thing as "should" generally for game systems.

If you don't have a particular game in mind, there isn't an answer to your question.

Sure it does. In any given game there is a certain quantity of realism. The question is, given that quantity of realism, how deadly could such a dog be?

We can compare the reality of such a dog, a hypothetical dog even, with a system such as AD&D. How dangerous should the ideal attack dog be in an AD&D world, using that system? Could the ideal attack dog take down an armored knight?

If we say that AD&D is all nonsense, with heroic characters who can shrug off a pack of ideal attack dogs while wearing nothing but their skivvies, well, then, I guess the question can't be answered. It's all bullshit anyway. But if the game even pretends to be realistic, the question should be answerable in that game's terms.

He has a point. There are some game systems where all weapons do the same damage. So in that case, the dog would so the same damage as any other weapon. Regardless if it attacked or someone threw it at a person.

Quote from: JeremyR on February 21, 2025, 12:58:51 AMHe has a point. There are some game systems where all weapons do the same damage. So in that case, the dog would so the same damage as any other weapon. Regardless if it attacked or someone threw it at a person.

All weapons do the same damage? Like a sword, a bullet, a cannonball, and a dog all do 1d6 hp damage? I'm not familiar with these game systems.

Greetings!

Geesus. Well, faced off against a fully-armoured knight, a normal war dog probably wouldn't do much, certainly not in a lethal or fatal sense. The war dog could however, topple a standing armoured knight and bring them to the ground, and thereby keep the armoured knight busy with defending themselves and harassing them. The war dog naturally goes for the genitals, the throat, and the face for killing and wounding attacks.

Against an unarmoured opponent or someone armoured in something like leather, well, such an opponent is fucked. Watch the dog videos, as I described. Trained war dogs run and leap like a bullet being shot from a gun. From a stand still, trained war dogs are able to accelerate to incredible, blurrying speeds and stroke a standing or moving man with absolutely incredible force, easily sweeping the target off their feet and to the ground. Once the target man is on the ground, well, the war dog's incredible speed and agility makes the Human look like a slow sack of mashed potatoes, helpless from again, a blitzkrieg of the dog's attacks. Biting, turning, biting and herking the Human's limbs, within just a few seconds, the Human is made entirely helpless. Save for the war dog's handlers, such Human targets would easily be ripped to shreds in moments and killed by the war dogs. On the off chance that a struggling human got lucky and survived, they would no doubt suffer severe and bloody wounds, and need to be hospitalized very quickly in such circumstances. If they were lucky, and exceptionally fierce and strong. Women, old people, adolescents, kids, most average men? They are all certainly fucked.

I've seen dozens of these kinds of videos. Human beings are at a fatal disadvantage, and in moments, they really get handled hard by the war dogs. The war dogs strike so hard and so quickly, the Human target cannot even keep up to really defend themselves.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 21, 2025, 11:14:30 AMGreetings!

Geesus. Well, faced off against a fully-armoured knight, a normal war dog probably wouldn't do much, certainly not in a lethal or fatal sense. The war dog could however, topple a standing armoured knight and bring them to the ground, and thereby keep the armoured knight busy with defending themselves and harassing them. The war dog naturally goes for the genitals, the throat, and the face for killing and wounding attacks.

Against an unarmoured opponent or someone armoured in something like leather, well, such an opponent is fucked. Watch the dog videos, as I described. Trained war dogs run and leap like a bullet being shot from a gun. From a stand still, trained war dogs are able to accelerate to incredible, blurrying speeds and stroke a standing or moving man with absolutely incredible force, easily sweeping the target off their feet and to the ground. Once the target man is on the ground, well, the war dog's incredible speed and agility makes the Human look like a slow sack of mashed potatoes, helpless from again, a blitzkrieg of the dog's attacks. Biting, turning, biting and herking the Human's limbs, within just a few seconds, the Human is made entirely helpless. Save for the war dog's handlers, such Human targets would easily be ripped to shreds in moments and killed by the war dogs. On the off chance that a struggling human got lucky and survived, they would no doubt suffer severe and bloody wounds, and need to be hospitalized very quickly in such circumstances. If they were lucky, and exceptionally fierce and strong. Women, old people, adolescents, kids, most average men? They are all certainly fucked.

I've seen dozens of these kinds of videos. Human beings are at a fatal disadvantage, and in moments, they really get handled hard by the war dogs. The war dogs strike so hard and so quickly, the Human target cannot even keep up to really defend themselves.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thanks for all the info, SHARK!

From the videos it looks like a man with a melee weapon would get one (1) chance at disabling the dog before it's on him. Break its jaw with a baseball bat and how can it bite? But hitting it at the right time, with the right power, in the right place, would seem to require a high level of skill and cool under fire. And, if there are multiple dogs, he could only disable one of them before the others are on him.

Bruce Lee vs a Belgian Malinois? Any takers?

Neoplatonist1

From discussions with a friend of mine who owns a "maligator" and did some training with it I'll make two observations;

First, for a fantasy setting, don't discount the near ubiquity of the gambeson in mitigating the lethality of dog bites (just look at the protective gear used in training the dogs... it's essentially a modern gambeson).

It wouldn't save you from being knocked or dragged down, but it would certainly mute the piercing damage and the bulk and ability to slide would make a crushing bite grip harder to achieve.

Second, the weapon you need for dealing with a war dog is your backup; the dagger or hatchet or whatever other item you're carrying for when you end up on the ground grappling with a human opponent.

Basically, even if the dog doesn't outright disarm you (a trained war dog should probably have a bonus to disarm in whatever system you're using... a dog biting down on your arm, even if it's not able to do damage, is still 60-ish pounds of mass hanging off your arm) you would probably almost instinctively drop any weapon too big to be useful against the dog and, if you're not just panicking, try to reach for whatever you have that would help... a dagger is pretty ideal since it's head and therefore neck are pretty well attached to some part of your body.

Basically, war dogs in general should be built to exploit the grappling rules of whatever system you're using, with all the advantages and hindrances that implies.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 20, 2025, 11:13:12 PM

Quote from: Domina on February 20, 2025, 08:50:49 PMThat doesn't make any sense. There isn't any such thing as "should" generally for game systems.

If you don't have a particular game in mind, there isn't an answer to your question.

Sure it does. In any given game there is a certain quantity of realism. The question is, given that quantity of realism, how deadly could such a dog be?

Right, and since that quantity is different for every game system, the question can be only answered for particular games.

You're allowed to actually read and think about a post before shitting out a stupid kneejerk response that doesn't address the actual point being made.

Quote from: Ruprecht on February 19, 2025, 11:12:46 AMI was trying to get info on how it would be handled mechanically as well as the factual description of if/what the dogs do.

Use the wolf's takedown move.

Bear in mind that dogs in a fantasy setting will be trained to deal with very different threats.

Like if someone is in robes or twiddling their fingers then go for the arms. Break the casting (in AD&D)

Look for weak points in armor or harry and try to flank/distract so the adventurer can get into position.

Quote from: Domina on February 21, 2025, 01:37:21 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 20, 2025, 11:13:12 PM

Quote from: Domina on February 20, 2025, 08:50:49 PMThat doesn't make any sense. There isn't any such thing as "should" generally for game systems.

If you don't have a particular game in mind, there isn't an answer to your question.

Sure it does. In any given game there is a certain quantity of realism. The question is, given that quantity of realism, how deadly could such a dog be?

Right, and since that quantity is different for every game system, the question can be only answered for particular games.

You're allowed to actually read and think about a post before shitting out a stupid kneejerk response that doesn't address the actual point being made.

Do you play particular games? If so, then feel free to answer the question in your particular game's terms. I'd be curious to see anyone's mechanical take on the question.