Humans can learn martial arts, becoming exponentially more dangerous to other humans in the process. How martially skilled could an attack dog become, given the ideal trainer, breeder, and no ethical limits?

Specifically: Could a dog increase its bites-per-second? Its dodging ability? Could it specifically move to throw a man by entangling his legs? Can a dog be trained somehow to have a harder bite? Can a dog be trained to more accurately tear a man apart as by biting the throat, crotch, hamstring, wrist, etc?

What is the upper limit on how martially dangerous a dog could be?

Google Belgian Malinois.

IRL Special Forces K-9 units are extremely lethal.  A single dog can clear a room of multiple armed men in under a minute.  Add to that, their agility and ability to read body language and you are going to have a really hard time getting a good shot at one.  We are talking the strength of a single dog capable of completely taking out a squad.  Then they work really well in pairs and small packs to the point where the effectiveness is exponential.   

There are dogs taught to kill by biting vulnerable spots but most are trained to incapacitate.  Even the USN Seals use them more for controlling rather than killing.

   

Dogs can be trained to do pretty much any of those things. Dogs have also been bred specifically to excel at some of them (such as having wider jaws to more easily encompass a throat, along with a stronger bite force).

Since this is an rpg forum, I'm assuming you're asking in the context of a game. In that case, just go with the rule-of-cool and give the dog whatever abilities you think it should have.

Here's a vid worth looking at:
Note also, they are not showing you all their tricks.

Quote from: BadApple on February 18, 2025, 03:13:20 PMGoogle Belgian Malinois.

IRL Special Forces K-9 units are extremely lethal.  A single dog can clear a room of multiple armed men in under a minute.  Add to that, their agility and ability to read body language and you are going to have a really hard time getting a good shot at one.  We are talking the strength of a single dog capable of completely taking out a squad.  Then they work really well in pairs and small packs to the point where the effectiveness is exponential.   

There are dogs taught to kill by biting vulnerable spots but most are trained to incapacitate.  Even the USN Seals use them more for controlling rather than killing.

   

Really now? a single K-9 unit can clear a whole armed squad in a minute? that's pretty damn impressive. would there be any historical or even recent examples?

I'm currently fleshing out the supernatural departments of  Govt' Agencies of my setting, I imagine sicking a dog like that would be very effective against a lot of spooks.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on February 18, 2025, 03:23:23 PM

Quote from: BadApple on February 18, 2025, 03:13:20 PMGoogle Belgian Malinois.

IRL Special Forces K-9 units are extremely lethal.  A single dog can clear a room of multiple armed men in under a minute.  Add to that, their agility and ability to read body language and you are going to have a really hard time getting a good shot at one.  We are talking the strength of a single dog capable of completely taking out a squad.  Then they work really well in pairs and small packs to the point where the effectiveness is exponential.   

There are dogs taught to kill by biting vulnerable spots but most are trained to incapacitate.  Even the USN Seals use them more for controlling rather than killing.

   

Really now? a single K-9 unit can clear a whole armed squad in a minute? that's pretty damn impressive. would there be any historical or even recent examples?

I'm currently fleshing out the supernatural departments Govt'Agencies of my setting, I imagine sicking dog like that would be very effective against a lot of spooks.

Several stories about it have come to surface from the GWoT efforts by several special forces units of several nations.  To be fair, it's more a dog and handler team rather than just the dog in most of the accounts I've come across.  Also, it's more about fracturing unit cohesion rather than wounding and killing every member.  Still, they've been very successful at turning CQB engagements and wrecking small units almost single-handedly.

Jump on youtube and do searched for military working dogs and special forces dogs.  They won't show you a lot but they will give you a hint as to what these dogs can do IRL.

Quote from: BadApple on February 18, 2025, 03:34:11 PMSeveral stories about it have come to surface from the GWoT efforts by several special forces units of several nations.  To be fair, it's more a dog and handler team rather than just the dog in most of the accounts I've come across.  Also, it's more about fracturing unit cohesion rather than wounding and killing every member.  Still, they've been very successful at turning CQB engagements and wrecking small units almost single-handedly.

Jump on youtube and do searched for military working dogs and special forces dogs.  They won't show you a lot but they will give you a hint as to what these dogs can do IRL.

I see, that makes sense, CQB with a dog and human handler pair does sound like a nightmare, I'm reminded of the K-9 units in Starship Troopers (the novel) where the implication was the neodogs and humans had a slight telepathic connection. which made them second only in effectiveness to the Mobile Infantry.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on February 18, 2025, 03:23:23 PMI imagine sicking a dog like that would be very effective against a lot of spooks.

The problem is that dogs trained like that would be incredibly expensive, it takes a ton of breeding and training to get a dog up to that point, to where I would think the spooks would be the only ones with access to them.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 18, 2025, 03:49:24 PM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on February 18, 2025, 03:23:23 PMI imagine sicking a dog like that would be very effective against a lot of spooks.

The problem is that dogs trained like that would be incredibly expensive, it takes a ton of breeding and training to get a dog up to that point, to where I would think the spooks would be the only ones with access to them.

I meant spooks as in supernatural creatures, not spooks as in Feds, though vampire dogs would be pretty deadly also.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on February 18, 2025, 02:25:05 PMHumans can learn martial arts, becoming exponentially more dangerous to other humans in the process. How martially skilled could an attack dog become, given the ideal trainer, breeder, and no ethical limits?

Specifically: Could a dog increase its bites-per-second? Its dodging ability? Could it specifically move to throw a man by entangling his legs? Can a dog be trained somehow to have a harder bite? Can a dog be trained to more accurately tear a man apart as by biting the throat, crotch, hamstring, wrist, etc?

What is the upper limit on how martially dangerous a dog could be?

Greetings!

Yeah, my friend! Professionally trained War Dogs are just damned awesome! As other members have already attested, there are numerous videos of trained war dogs doing jaw-dropping feats in just *Training Videos*. Many! I've seen a Belgian Malinois take a running charge from say, 100 feet or more out, in literally *seconds* jackhammer some 300 pound man seeking to lead a little girl off from a park area. To give you an idea of how fast the dog hits him, it really is not an exaggeration to liken the dog attack to be like watching a bullet strike. From the dog's command release--at a standstill--the dog hits this 300 pound man before he so much ass gets *three steps*. The man is just taken down like a sack, and threatened with throat-crushing. DONE. The dog makes it all look laughably easy, for the dog anyways. The man's height, weight, strength--all mean nothing. The man might as well be a big sack of mashed potatoes. Furthermore, the dog bites and attacks with jaw-dropping speed and agility. The enemy man cannot keep up or defend himself in the slightest. Strike, boom, bite, the man is down and screaming. THAT FAST. The human eye can barely keep up with how fast the dog's movements and attacks are, once the contact has been made after the initial strike.

There are also airborne goggles made for dogs, special packs, and other gear to help protect the dog, or to make it easier for the Handler for example to lift the dog up walls, carry the dog, and so on. I've seen dogs jump from flying aircraft, roll, come upright in seconds, make a long charge, and attack a man. So much like watching a rifle being fired, in just slightly slower motion. Dogs jump into the ocean from helicopters and pull people to safety, and more. Absolutely incredible feats and abilities! A dog's strength and power is nothing like a Human being's. The dog's bite force can break your arm in one bite. The dog can bring you to the floor even when you stand and face the attack. Once you are on the ground, well, you really become the dog's chew toy as the dog leaps and jerks and twists far faster than a Human can even register to keep up. If the training men were not wearing thick protective clothing, blood would be flying everywhere, and the targeted men would be screaming as the dog unleashes savage bite after savage bite!

That is the power and terror inspired by *JUST ONE* war dog. Two or more, working in a team? Yeah. GAME OVER.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 18, 2025, 03:49:24 PM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on February 18, 2025, 03:23:23 PMI imagine sicking a dog like that would be very effective against a lot of spooks.

The problem is that dogs trained like that would be incredibly expensive, it takes a ton of breeding and training to get a dog up to that point, to where I would think the spooks would be the only ones with access to them.

For the best of the best dogs, it's about $250K per individual.

OTOH, a well motivated individual with some understanding of dog training and a lot of patience can get incredible results out of a pup from the pound.  Over the years, I've known a few guys that were dog trainers that were really good and I have seen just exceptional dogs from mutts.

Not every dog is capable of a high level of training so I'm not saying that every single dog is a furry warrior ready to be unleashed but there's more than will ever meet those capable of training them.

Quote from: BadApple on February 18, 2025, 04:28:49 PMOTOH, a well motivated individual with some understanding of dog training and a lot of patience can get incredible results out of a pup from the pound.  Over the years, I've known a few guys that were dog trainers that were really good and I have seen just exceptional dogs from mutts.

Not every dog is capable of a high level of training so I'm not saying that every single dog is a furry warrior ready to be unleashed but there's more than will ever meet those capable of training them.

Fair. For something of a heightened setting, having a skilled trainer and a decent line on puppies would be enough to justify a PC having an attack dog companion I suppose.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 18, 2025, 05:17:11 PM

Quote from: BadApple on February 18, 2025, 04:28:49 PMOTOH, a well motivated individual with some understanding of dog training and a lot of patience can get incredible results out of a pup from the pound.  Over the years, I've known a few guys that were dog trainers that were really good and I have seen just exceptional dogs from mutts.

Not every dog is capable of a high level of training so I'm not saying that every single dog is a furry warrior ready to be unleashed but there's more than will ever meet those capable of training them.

Fair. For something of a heightened setting, having a skilled trainer and a decent line on puppies would be enough to justify a PC having an attack dog companion I suppose.

About 15 years ago, my wife got a chihuahua that was about 2 years old and lived it's entire life up to that point in a cage.  It was following commands, finding my daughter for me when I asked, fetching my shoes for me when I said it's time for a walk, and I never had to have her on a leash with in three months.  I'm not a dog trainer or even particularly a dog guy.  She was just a run of the mill dumb chihuahua.  What really happened is that I was spending 15 hours a day with her and through that we learned to communicate and trust each other.  I absolutely believe that it would have rode to hell and back with me and done everything it could to keep me safe.  In truth, it could have been much more if it had a trainer that was better than me.

I have seen dogs that were taught by an 8yo girl to dance ballet.  I knew a police dog that wasn't really a police dog that would just ride in the patrol car with it's owner that was more disciplined than a marine and learned how to be useful OJT.  There are a number of YT videos of normal people that have trained their dogs for all kinds of things.

It's not about an exceptional person, exceptional skills, or an exceptional dog.  It's all about spending time with, learning to trust, and developing communication with the dog.  The vast majority of dogs never see their potential.  However, if you have an exceptional dog and an exceptionally skilled trainer, the ceiling is much higher.

Dragon had a few articles on attack dogs and more aggressive familiars. Even at least one on exotic dogs other races have.

I think Shadowrun had some as well. Probably other RPGs too.

In a more gaming context. Do trained dogs jump up and 'tackle' to bring someone down so they can get at the face and neck? Or are they like untrained dogs in that they go for the legs and try to pull them out from under you?