Quote from: David RDefinitely. Most often though it's not so black and white. Like I said, just because the npc in question has a favourable attitude towards the pc this may not necessarily translate into becoming an ally. It does however mean that the npc in question is willing to risk something to indirectly aid the pc. There are no small roles only small NPCs

I have this sneaking suspicion that we're talking about two different things, and I can't quite tell from what we're saying.

   Example #1:  Severus is an evil man, bent on the pursuit of power.  But he has an increasingly loving and caring relationship with young Veronica, and so when he gets a chance to sacrifice her to the Moon-Gods he balks, weighing his desire for power to be less important than his relationship with her.  After that debacle, he goes back to malevolently seeking power by other means.

Example #2:  Severus is an evil man, bent on the pursuit of power.  But he has an increasingly loving and caring relationship with young Veronica.  His schemes seem increasingly empty and hollow, and he begins to wonder whether he is on the right path after all.  When confronted with a chance to sacrifice Veronica to the Moon-Gods he cannot keep telling himself that power is worth the terrible price he pays for it.  He defies the Moon-Gods, and sets out upon a new path, trying to find what kind of man he should be.  Should he try to be good and to atone for the sins of his past?  Or is he beyond redemption, a monster, and fit only to associate with monsters?To me (at least) those look like qualitatively different ways that the NPC can change.  Do they look different to you?  If they do, can you talk a bit about what kind of changes your NPCs undergo, in light of that distinction?

Quote from: TonyLBI have this sneaking suspicion that we're talking about two different things, and I can't quite tell from what we're saying.

   Example #1:  Severus is an evil man, bent on the pursuit of power.  But he has an increasingly loving and caring relationship with young Veronica, and so when he gets a chance to sacrifice her to the Moon-Gods he balks, weighing his desire for power to be less important than his relationship with her.  After that debacle, he goes back to malevolently seeking power by other means.

Example #2:  Severus is an evil man, bent on the pursuit of power.  But he has an increasingly loving and caring relationship with young Veronica.  His schemes seem increasingly empty and hollow, and he begins to wonder whether he is on the right path after all.  When confronted with a chance to sacrifice Veronica to the Moon-Gods he cannot keep telling himself that power is worth the terrible price he pays for it.  He defies the Moon-Gods, and sets out upon a new path, trying to find what kind of man he should be.  Should he try to be good and to atone for the sins of his past?  Or is he beyond redemption, a monster, and fit only to associate with monsters?To me (at least) those look like qualitatively different ways that the NPC can change.  Do they look different to you?  If they do, can you talk a bit about what kind of changes your NPCs undergo, in light of that distinction?

What's the difference you're seeing there Tony?  The second looks to me like a more detailed version of the first, but I'm not spotting the qualitative difference (though admittedly I am tired today).

In the first instance, after the whole Moon-Gods debacle, if Severus could find some anonymous schmoe to sacrifice to the Elder Slugs he would.  Outside of his relationship with Veronica he's unchanged.

In the second instance, the change has effected who he is, even when Veronica is uninvolved.

Quote from: TonyLBIn the first instance, after the whole Moon-Gods debacle, if Severus could find some anonymous schmoe to sacrifice to the Elder Slugs he would.  Outside of his relationship with Veronica he's unchanged.

In the second instance, the change has effected who he is, even when Veronica is uninvolved.

Ah, quite a big difference then, thanks.

I'll let David come back and then give my own thoughts.

Quote from: TonyLBI have this sneaking suspicion that we're talking about two different things, and I can't quite tell from what we're saying.

I think we are talking about the same thing. But I do believe an example is in order. (Sorry in advance for the war story)

QuoteDo they look different to you?

Yes, they do.

Let's take my current Cyberpunk campaign - 99 Problems But - as an example of how my (admittedly vague) system works.

The campaign is set in a near future Mid East where the pcs are members of a rap posse gunning for the big time. One of the characters, the leader of the group, is only in it for the money. Her character's brother on the other, believes that the groups music can fuel social change. Although she (the lead character) only wants to make it big, she does realize that her music, which is very political in nature grabs people or to her mind their wallets. So, she has got this really political in your face persona that she nurtures.

A couple of sessions ago, the crew had a run in with another group. Gunplay was the result. One of the few members of this rival crew left standing - a minor member - heard her "Why are we fighting amongst ourselves" speech - even though she really does not believe any of the platitudes she spews out.

Now, in the beginning of the encounter the gang member had a rating of 4 on the scale. After the incident, he got up to a 5. The fact is, she was pretty convinving. Even the other pcs were moved by her little speech.

A couple of sessions later, this same gang member is now employed by a slimy record executive. The pcs had a run in with this slime ball who really treats the "lesser" members of his staff like dirt. The gangmember notices how, the lead singer sticks up for the executive's underlings.

The pcs still think that the gang member is out for their blood - a feeling I don't discourage but in reality, he's impressed with the way how the lead singer sticks up for the common man. So, the rating goes up 1 point.

So the next time they meet - if they ever do, the scale may either go up or down, depending on what the pcs do.

Do you get where I'm going with this Tony?

Edit: So this npc who started of as a minor vicious gang memeber is slowly changing to someone more aware of his actions. The fact that the lead pc does not really believe (for the time being) in what she says, just makes it all the more interesting...

Regards,
David R

Tony I do get the difference in your examples. I just thought I would get my little system out of the way first.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RDo you get where I'm going with this Tony?

Yep.  I guess what I'm asking is, in practice, how often does this sort of thing translate into the minor thug becoming (say) a guy who values ideals over money even when the lead-singer-chick isn't involved?

I sort of suspect that everyone agrees that this kind of change can happen in theory, but in practice some people use it as a trope more consistently than others do, for a variety of reasons.

Quote from: TonyLBYep.  I guess what I'm asking is, in practice, how often does this sort of thing translate into the minor thug becoming (say) a guy who values ideals over money even when the lead-singer-chick isn't involved?

Now I get it. Very often in my campaigns.

Some folks have remarked that npcs should change only when them come into contact with the pcs. I disagree...

Regards,
David R