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On a scale of 1 to Warp Gate Opening In My Head! how broken (if at all, despite comments across the webway), unbalanced or whatever is Deathwatch?

Is the errata as hideous as Nurgle's hairy arse? Is it minimal? Has there been a second printing to include such?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452201On a scale of 1 to Warp Gate Opening In My Head! how broken (if at all, despite comments across the webway), unbalanced or whatever is Deathwatch?

Is the errata as hideous as Nurgle's hairy arse? Is it minimal? Has there been a second printing to include such?

1. Deathwatch isn't unbalanced.

The errata isn't too bad. It's 6 pages + a cover and an FAQ, which is significantly shorter than Dark Heresy's was at this point in its development. Most of it is clarifications rather than outright changes. I've played two sessions out of two so far without the need to consult it for anything.

Dunno about second printings with the errata yet. Probably not considering how long it took for DH to get one that incorporated the errata.

Deathwatch marines are extremely powerful, and the rules reflect that. That doesn't make them "broken".

I'm thinking of getting it. All things considered regarding my feelings about ffg's approach. However there is one thing that really bothers me: the lack of adversaries.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452252I'm thinking of getting it. All things considered regarding my feelings about ffg's approach. However there is one thing that really bothers me: the lack of adversaries.

The basics are in the corebook already. Mark of the Xenos or whatever it's called is gonna have more. You can recycle enemies from DH and RT pretty easily with a bit of tweaking. Plus, it's pretty easy to make up your own monsters and enemies. I do it all the time.

The core book is very basic. One daemon, no chaos sorcerers, lords, other creatures, some heretics and random chaos marines. No orks, no eldar, no dark eldar, no kroot, no vespid, no necrons. That's not very encouraging.

I'll be honest I don't really want to make things up and I'd feel a lot better about it if there were official sources for these things as this is a combat game and these are core antagonists. So this is a big deal for me.

And i realise other people have made up stuff of their own, but i've no idea if it's balanced since there are no toolkits, afaict, to work from.

What do you need for adversaries?  Your characters run into orcs, genestellers, eldar whatever.  Just look at how tough their characters are think of how tough of an encounter you want to have and stat out your monsters accordingly.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452268The core book is very basic. One daemon, no chaos sorcerers, lords, other creatures, some heretics and random chaos marines. No orks, no eldar, no dark eldar, no kroot, no vespid, no necrons. That's not very encouraging.

I'll be honest I don't really want to make things up and I'd feel a lot better about it if there were official sources for these things as this is a combat game and these are core antagonists. So this is a big deal for me.

And i realise other people have made up stuff of their own, but i've no idea if it's balanced since there are no toolkits, afaict, to work from.

If you need a monster book, Creatures Anathema has a lot of what you're looking for.

Quote from: kryyst;452269What do you need for adversaries?  Your characters run into orcs, genestellers, eldar whatever.  Just look at how tough their characters are think of how tough of an encounter you want to have and stat out your monsters accordingly.

According to what?

I assume what you would need are equivalent stats (for attacking, interacting, whatever) and rules for any special abilities traits and powers they might have, be they Daemons, Chaos Sorcerers, giant robots, Squiggoths, or Vogon poets.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452271If you need a monster book, Creatures Anathema has a lot of what you're looking for.

I will never understand FFG.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452277According to what?

I assume what you would need are equivalent stats (for attacking, interacting, whatever) and rules for any special abilities traits and powers they might have, be they Daemons, Chaos Sorcerers, giant robots, Squiggoths, or Vogon poets.

According to your characters.  If your characters are say on average 50's and 5's across the board and you want to create a tough encounter then there are the stats for your creatures.  If you want to have a mob make each one weaker, a boss make 1 a lot tougher and with more wounds.  You want them to be able to shoot lightning bolts out of their ass then have them do so.

Alternatively if you don't want to do so much on the fly take any opponent stat block in the book and use it for all similarly leveled creatures, perhaps tweaking out strenght/toughness or WS and BS.  Perhaps more agile vs tough whatever.  Slight tweaks and a reskin goes a long way.

Quote from: kryyst;452279According to your characters.  If your characters are say on average 50's and 5's across the board and you want to create a tough encounter then there are the stats for your creatures.  If you want to have a mob make each one weaker, a boss make 1 a lot tougher and with more wounds.  You want them to be able to shoot lightning bolts out of their ass then have them do so.

Alternatively if you don't want to do so much on the fly take any opponent stat block in the book and use it for all similarly leveled creatures, perhaps tweaking out strenght/toughness or WS and BS.  Perhaps more agile vs tough whatever.  Slight tweaks and a reskin goes a long way.

I don't want to do that. I want the game designers to give me this stuff. It's beyond absurd to design a SPACE MARINE game with piss all info on adversaries beyond 'do it yourself' or 'fudge here'. This is not why I buy game books.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452281I don't want to do that. I want the game designers to give me this stuff. It's beyond absurd to design a SPACE MARINE game with piss all info on adversaries beyond 'do it yourself' or 'fudge here'. This is not why I buy game books.

Since creativity ain't your thing, you should just buy the adventure book which has additional stats for antagonists, as well as prewritten adventures, so you can have the game designers do all the work for you.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452284Since creativity ain't your thing, you should just buy the adventure book which has additional stats for antagonists, as well as prewritten adventures, so you can have the game designers do all the work for you.

And now for the snark.

I didn't say i wasn't inclined to creativity. I said that I didn't want to do all the work of creating balanced stats for 40k monsters and enemies when I could be using FFG's own efforts (which, presumably, would be balanced and accurate) to write and plot adventures. Expecting someone new to the game, and quite an involved game, to design, from scratch, necrons or whatever for himself is a tall order, and it's also unreasonable. I want to buy this game so I dont have to do all the work myself otherwise why bother.

Stats from different games are scaled differently and are hardly economical purchases. Buying an adventure book solely for a couple of pages of stats, which is what would be happening since i'm writing my own, is crazy, and it's also more than I can afford. Logistically it makes no sense either (and i bet there are a ton of GM's pirating these stats rather than paying full price for the entire book).

Unfortunately RT had the exact same problem. I don't understand this at all and it's seriously impacting my decision to buy thsi game. Supplements shouldn't be required, they should compliment the game not be an ad hoc necessity with a grab bag of essentially useful info.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452281I don't want to do that. I want the game designers to give me this stuff. It's beyond absurd to design a SPACE MARINE game with piss all info on adversaries beyond 'do it yourself' or 'fudge here'. This is not why I buy game books.

I completely, 100% support Ghost Whistler and this has been my #1 complaint about the 40K line since the beginning.

I don't understand how you can get all the stats for everything in the entire 40K wargame right now and for a couple hundred bucks total; yet can't get even 5% of the stats for those same creatures by buying FFG's entire catalog (which runs you a whole lot more).

It's been what, five years now and we have maybe a total of two or three ork stats, two or three eldar stats, two or three tyranid stats?!?!  It's just plain stupid.

I can see how apologists could argue against including all the xenos, vehicles, etc, for the other two lines (though I still think those arguments are crap).  But for a Space Marine game not to include it?  It just means the people behind the game simply don't get it.

Either that or it's deeply cynical marketing.

But then everything is sold to the player/gm through the filter of FFG's version of the 40k universe, so stats for Jericho Reach specific aliens are given equal footing to Orks in the upcoming Mark of the Xenos, and the Tyrnaids invading are a specific Hive Fleet. That's all well and good, but I want the book to be saying 'here's how to create a Chaos army to fight against, here are the ruinous powers the archdaemon and his supplicant sorcerer can wield, here's the stuff for an Eldar strike team shadowing the Marines as both search for an ancient weapon, here's some Necrons you don't want to awaken'. All these cool things that are encompassed in stuff like Dawn of War - and I have to rely on the interweb to do it all for me, or buy a series of books at vgreat expense all at cross purposes in order to do it properly. I don't get it.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452290And now for the snark.

QuoteHow Broken Is Deathwatch?

Neighbor, remove thy plank.

Quote from: jgants;452293I don't understand how you can get all the stats for everything in the entire 40K wargame right now and for a couple hundred bucks total; yet can't get even 5% of the stats for those same creatures by buying FFG's entire catalog (which runs you a whole lot more).

Hey guys, guess what?

40k uses a 1-10 scale for stats.  DH uses a 1-100 scale for stats.

What's 10 * 10?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452290And now for the snark.

I didn't say i wasn't inclined to creativity. I said that I didn't want to do all the work of creating balanced stats for 40k monsters and enemies when I could be using FFG's own efforts (which, presumably, would be balanced and accurate) to write and plot adventures. Expecting someone new to the game, and quite an involved game, to design, from scratch, necrons or whatever for himself is a tall order, and it's also unreasonable.

Not really. I did it from my very first DH game onwards, and the guy I'm playing with right now does the same thing, and most of the people I see discussing it online (at, for example /tg) do it as well. It's very similar to my experiences with most roleplaying games in that respect.

QuoteStats from different games are scaled differently and are hardly economical purchases.

The stats don't "scale differently". It's the same scale. Some enemies are comparatively weaker, some are tougher, but even DH-scale enemies, presented as hordes or equipped properly can pose a threat to Space Marines. Last night I had an enemy commander, represented by the "Imperial Field Officer" from the back of the DW book with a xeno weapon from Radical's Handbook, nearly kill a Space Marine PC in a single shot.

Just echoing Pseudoephedrine.  I've done that for everh Warhammer RPG since 1st edition on up to 2nd, then DH and beyond.   The monsters aren't really that different from each other.  Some may have a special ability but really they are pretty similar when you look at an orc vs a chaos marine vs a dark elf.  You don't need a million different monsters each with their own rules and exceptions.  Just pick a stat block and skin it.  That's basically all they are doing in the rule books anyway.  Taking a base 'average human' stat block and making +/- 10% changes to it to slightly vary it.  

About the only thing I draw from the creature books is the fluff.   Which I personally think is of a significant value.  In fact if they put out a creature book with 90% fluff and their stats basically said it's like a tougher human and can shoot a stream of strength 6 acid.  I wouldn't even bat an eye.

It's not about being creative or clever it's just about keeping the game flowing.  It's easier to stat things out on the fly then it is to flip the page to find it.

I now make a rule of not posting in threads that include the word "broken" in their title.

Wait a minute.

DAMN! :banghead:

I have no problem with anyone doing anything they want for their game. You want to create stats? Good luck to you.

But surely the point is that you shouldn't have to. We aren't tallking about esoteric information - we are talking about basic adversaries.

Now calculating stats for baddies is one thing, but how do we model supernatural stuff? Where do you begin? Perhaps its easier if you have experience with the system and all the books, but that's not what I want to buy into nor is it something I can afford.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452296Either that or it's deeply cynical marketing.

Yes of course. I'm quite fond of the Rogue Trader game they put out. But it's plainly obvious that FFG want to squeeze the supplement tread mill as hard as possible.

Here's an excerpt from a recent review on DarkReign of the new RT splat which focuses on space combat (you know, all these years after the core rulebook... someone realizes that this should be in the game):

QuoteXenos Starship Component Sidebar, pg 74

On behalf of all of us GMs that so callously asked for this information, I'm Sorry, FFG, that players might have purchased your previous product, Into the Storm, and enjoyed playing orks to the point they want to do an 'all ork' campaign.  I know that you find the idea that GMs might want to build custom enemy ships to challenge the Rogue Trader and their Crew to be distasteful. And, God Emperor preserve us, how dare players use the not-Ion Cannons in this very book to disable Chaos ships and take them as prizes, foolishly following existing canon about what valuable prizes said ships are to the Imperium, particularly when taken intact.

Please Forgive us for Daring to Run our Games as we see fit, oh Powerful Masters of the 40k RPG Franchise! /sarcasm

I'm not sure how other GMs feel, but being told, basically, that I do not need such information because the game is not supposed to be run a certain way just, really, gets under my skin.  I know I'm not the only person to have asked for this information in FFG's forums at one point or another, particularly after Into the Storm came out, and people wanting to play as Orks and Kroot came pouring out of the woodwork.   Add to this the deliberate removal of the Space and Power stats from all the NPC ships in an attempt to prevent us from working them out on our own, and frankly at this point I smell another $45 book just of Xenos and Chaos stuff in the works.

Being told to fuck off for wanting xenos ship components? That'll be $45 please, thanks.

http://www.darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/index.php/news/1-latest-news/1313-the-imperium-expects-the-baron-reviews-battlefleet-koronus

One of the downsides of the non-D&D part of our hobby is people who demand that every game do in one book what takes D&D three.

Quote from: J Arcane;452332One of the downsides of the non-D&D part of our hobby is people who demand that every game do in one book what takes D&D three.

I was just thinking along those lines. Like, why is a secondary antagonists book such a problem for some people? Worked for D&D, worked for the Buffy RPG. I was chatting with a hardcore 40K fan the other day who thought that the core book for DW was more than enough to run a solid game of Xeno or chaos hunting, with antagonists drawn from DH material if GMs want more.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452328I have no problem with anyone doing anything they want for their game. You want to create stats? Good luck to you.

But surely the point is that you shouldn't have to. We aren't tallking about esoteric information - we are talking about basic adversaries.

Now calculating stats for baddies is one thing, but how do we model supernatural stuff? Where do you begin? Perhaps its easier if you have experience with the system and all the books, but that's not what I want to buy into nor is it something I can afford.

No I'm not arguing that you should have to, only that doing so isn't a big deal and that not having those things is far from crippling because Warhammer has never been a game about battling the new monster of the week.

There is enough information in the core book to run campaigns off of.  More if you have other 40k stuff.  Or perhaps I should word that I personally find there is enough information.

However in terms of price how many monsters do they include, how expensive and big do they need to make that core book before it makes everyone happy in terms of contents or becomes to expensive.  There's a balance there, some people are fine with the current product others aren't.

Comparing it to D&D because production values are about the same you get the Players hand book, the GM's guide and some monsters for $40.  Seems priced about right.

Quote from: Windjammer;452330Yes of course. I'm quite fond of the Rogue Trader game they put out. But it's plainly obvious that FFG want to squeeze the supplement tread mill as hard as possible.

I would actually forgive them for that if it didn't take years for the next book to come out, still be incomplete, and rife with issues.  I mean, it's one thing to have space combat be a separate book.  It's another thing for that book to come out 2 years too late and still suck.

Quote from: J Arcane;452332One of the downsides of the non-D&D part of our hobby is people who demand that every game do in one book what takes D&D three.

I certainly don't demand it in one.  I do, however, think that after the first dozen or so overpriced books that don't contain any info whatsoever, one tends to get a bit annoyed.

Quote from: Géza Echs;452335I was just thinking along those lines. Like, why is a secondary antagonists book such a problem for some people? Worked for D&D, worked for the Buffy RPG. I was chatting with a hardcore 40K fan the other day who thought that the core book for DW was more than enough to run a solid game of Xeno or chaos hunting, with antagonists drawn from DH material if GMs want more.

I'm 1000% cool with an antagonist book that would actually contain everything like a monster manual does.  What I hate is these large, overpriced hardcovers that spend 80% of the page count on things we aren't asking for, then barely scratch the surface of what we do want.  It's not even a half-assed job.

The core book for DW sucks ass for antagonists.  You are either lying, or the 40K fan is clueless.  There are a whopping 3 enemies listed in the DW book.  How the hell can you run more than an adventure or two based on that?

And no, porting over antagonists from Dark Heresy, where the power level is about half the level of DW, doesn't really work.  At least not without messing with the stats.



Here's what I don't get - why are there so many people falling over themselves to apologize for the fact that FFG doesn't want to give people the game they actually want?  I don't get it.

Quote from: kryyst;452338No I'm not arguing that you should have to, only that doing so isn't a big deal and that not having those things is far from crippling because Warhammer has never been a game about battling the new monster of the week.

There is enough information in the core book to run campaigns off of.  More if you have other 40k stuff.  Or perhaps I should word that I personally find there is enough information.

However in terms of price how many monsters do they include, how expensive and big do they need to make that core book before it makes everyone happy in terms of contents or becomes to expensive.  There's a balance there, some people are fine with the current product others aren't.

Comparing it to D&D because production values are about the same you get the Players hand book, the GM's guide and some monsters for $40.  Seems priced about right.

Some monsters?  There's 3.  3!!!

How is that plenty of info to run a campaign off of?  Seriously.


How many times do people have to say it?  What people want is a Dawn of War style RPG.  We do not want Call of Cthulhu in Space.

Quote from: J Arcane;452332One of the downsides of the non-D&D part of our hobby is people who demand that every game do in one book what takes D&D three.

But the D&D core books are half the price of the 40k core books. Also the D&D monster manual has, i'm guessing, a fairly complete list of monsters. Creatures Anathema, for example, doesn't. What it gives is a selection of specific entities which, again, you will have to twist if you want more. The chaos section had a few specific demons of FFG's own construction. No toolkit for the creation of your own daemons for instance. It's all so haphazard and it' sno thelped when information is distributed seemingly at random across books, so core book contains a couple of things, GM screen gives you a dark eldar, book 3 gives you a chaos dude, and so forthe.

Quote from: Géza Echs;452335I was just thinking along those lines. Like, why is a secondary antagonists book such a problem for some people? Worked for D&D, worked for the Buffy RPG. I was chatting with a hardcore 40K fan the other day who thought that the core book for DW was more than enough to run a solid game of Xeno or chaos hunting, with antagonists drawn from DH material if GMs want more.

Quite a large caveat.

DH is probably the most complete of the three corebooks, from what I can see. But DW is the one most about combat and has relatively little.

Again it's not really acceptable to say 'use antagonists from across the DH books'. I shouldn't really have to buy DH books, scale them up accordingly (and i bet the DW book gives no advice on how to do this), and edit them into what I want, when what I want is fairly basic stuff. It's a very odd setup.

I have no problem with secondary books, so long as the primary source is enough. By all means expand on that, but first lets have something to work with.

I'm also completely comfortable coming up with my own stuff, but I dson't think it's at all unreasonable to want officially statted stuff from a game line that comes from a world where everything is officially statted. It's the 40K way.

I used to get hassled all the time for "making stuff up" in 40K. It ruffled my feathers at first, then I sort of learned the mindset. There's a stronger element of competition and reliance on fairness in the 40K world that I think the games miss an opportunity to capitalize.

Quote from: jgants;452339The core book for DW sucks ass for antagonists.  You are either lying, or the 40K fan is clueless.  There are a whopping 3 enemies listed in the DW book.  How the hell can you run more than an adventure or two based on that?

*flips to Chapter Thirteen* Three enemies? Are you talking about the three tiers of enemies? Or the three categories of enemies (excluding hordes) that are given and then subdivided into four types each? Because when I hear "three enemies" I expect to find three specifically statted enemies. Not twelve statted opponents from three distinct categories. That's not even including the Vespid and whatever else is in the GM's kit. So... who's lying or clueless?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452345Quite a large caveat.

It is, admittedly, a caveat. One that will hopefully be corrected when and if a DW adversaries book is released.

QuoteDH is probably the most complete of the three corebooks, from what I can see. But DW is the one most about combat and has relatively little.

But it has enough to get started with, certainly. DH didn't have much for quite a while, if I remember correctly. It wasn't like the line appeared fully formed.

QuoteAgain it's not really acceptable to say 'use antagonists from across the DH books'. I shouldn't really have to buy DH books, scale them up accordingly (and i bet the DW book gives no advice on how to do this), and edit them into what I want, when what I want is fairly basic stuff. It's a very odd setup.

I think they didn't include orks etc in the DW core book because of the setting and the fact that the focus for the DW squads is distinct and more specialized than the squads in regular 40K. That'll probably change over time as the line becomes less focused on the Reach, but as it stands I think saying we should use books from DH is an acceptable fix. Just not an optimum one.

QuoteI have no problem with secondary books, so long as the primary source is enough. By all means expand on that, but first lets have something to work with.

As I've said, though, I think the core book is enough to work with. It's certainly enough for my buddy to be building his campaign (admittedly I think he has other books in the DW line, but he's only talked to me about the core rules).

Quote from: Géza Echs;452350*flips to Chapter Thirteen* Three enemies? Are you talking about the three tiers of enemies? Or the three categories of enemies (excluding hordes) that are given and then subdivided into four types each? Because when I hear "three enemies" I expect to find three specifically statted enemies. Not twelve statted opponents from three distinct categories. That's not even including the Vespid and whatever else is in the GM's kit. So... who's lying or clueless?

There are three enemy facitons in the book: tyranid, tau, and chaos. That's it. And what's given is very thin on the ground. Tyranid tbf seem a bit more complete, but they aren't the sort of monster you want to fight atll the time given they are just teeth and claws. Tau are an odd choice IMO, but even then there's only a couple of units: no kroot or vespid. And if the Vespid are in the GM kit then again, wtf? Finally there's chaos which, of all the possible antagonists, deserve way more depth: only one daemon, with some minor custominsation, some bog standard chaos marines, and some heretic types. No info on chaos magic/sorcery/psykers or gear/vehicles.

That's not a lot!

Chaos shouldn't even be in the Deathwatch book. DW are Ordo Xenos.

Grey Knights are the anti-daemon chapter.

Quote from: Géza Echs;452352I think they didn't include orks etc in the DW core book because of the setting and the fact that the focus for the DW squads is distinct and more specialized than the squads in regular 40K. That'll probably change over time as the line becomes less focused on the Reach, but as it stands I think saying we should use books from DH is an acceptable fix. Just not an optimum one.



As I've said, though, I think the core book is enough to work with. It's certainly enough for my buddy to be building his campaign (admittedly I think he has other books in the DW line, but he's only talked to me about the core rules).

Except it's not though, since you've already stated that the DH material was used as well.

And the reason there are no orks? Because FFG said so! Isn't that a bit rich? FFG decide that one of the major players in the setting aren't yet in the Reach so noone can use orks without kludging it themselves? HOw is that logical? Personally i'd rather use chaos, but even they get short shrift.

I've no complaints with the quality of their ideas, but FFG feel more like babysitters than game developers and that makes me uncomfortable.

Quote from: Géza Echs;452350*flips to Chapter Thirteen* Three enemies? Are you talking about the three tiers of enemies? Or the three categories of enemies (excluding hordes) that are given and then subdivided into four types each? Because when I hear "three enemies" I expect to find three specifically statted enemies. Not twelve statted opponents from three distinct categories. That's not even including the Vespid and whatever else is in the GM's kit. So... who's lying or clueless?

You are correct, it's three enemies with four types each - I should have been clearer.  

It's still not nearly enough to properly play a campaign IMO.  You are missing over half the xenos races (including all of the most popular ones) and the races you do have give you a couple of enemies that fill a couple of specific roles.

Quote from: J Arcane;452354Chaos shouldn't even be in the Deathwatch book. DW are Ordo Xenos.

Grey Knights are the anti-daemon chapter.

Fail.

A Space marine rpg without Chaos would be the most ridiculous thing ever.

And it's not as if the ruelbook has rules for creating xeno enemies. You get tyranids and tau (if at all). So why not argue for including Eldar or even Necrons?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452353There are three enemy facitons in the book: tyranid, tau, and chaos. That's it. And what's given is very thin on the ground. Tyranid tbf seem a bit more complete, but they aren't the sort of monster you want to fight atll the time given they are just teeth and claws. Tau are an odd choice IMO, but even then there's only a couple of units: no kroot or vespid. And if the Vespid are in the GM kit then again, wtf? Finally there's chaos which, of all the possible antagonists, deserve way more depth: only one daemon, with some minor custominsation, some bog standard chaos marines, and some heretic types. No info on chaos magic/sorcery/psykers or gear/vehicles.

That's not a lot!

At the very least, I think the DW game should have included a basic trooper, elite, and leader type along with a vehicle for every major faction in the 40K universe.

Then they should have followed it up with a Codex book of each.  At least then everything would have been in one place.

Quote from: jgants;452339There are a whopping 3 enemies listed in the DW book.  How the hell can you run more than an adventure or two based on that?

This is simply factually incorrect. I don't know what partial pirate-scan you're reading, but it's missing a whole bunch of stuff.

QuoteAnd no, porting over antagonists from Dark Heresy, where the power level is about half the level of DW, doesn't really work.  At least not without messing with the stats.

Actually, it works pretty well. I know because I've done it. Enemies have to be played smart, and they have to either be hordes or well equipped, but it's actually pretty easy to port them over.

Quote from: jgants;452356You are correct, it's three enemies with four types each - I should have been clearer.  

It's still not nearly enough to properly play a campaign IMO.  You are missing over half the xenos races (including all of the most popular ones) and the races you do have give you a couple of enemies that fill a couple of specific roles.

"I KNOW ITS NOT ENOUGH TO PLAY THE GAME BECAUSE I DONT PLAY THE GAME BECAUSE ITS NOT ENOUGH AND IF YOU HAVE PLAYED THE GAME WITH THEM YOU ARE UNABLE TO"

Cool bro. It's neat that you've got an "opinion" and everything, but it's also pretty clear you haven't been paying attention to descriptions of how people play the game, and don't play it yourself and are therefore kind of prone to saying dumb, untrue things about play.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452357Fail.

A Space marine rpg without Chaos would be the most ridiculous thing ever.

And it's not as if the ruelbook has rules for creating xeno enemies. You get tyranids and tau (if at all). So why not argue for including Eldar or even Necrons?

It's not a space marine RPG. It's a Deathwatch RPG. Deathwatch fight for Ordo Xenos, it's what they are for.

Daemons and chaos are already covered in other books, reprinting it would be redundant.

Quote from: J Arcane;452364It's not a space marine RPG. It's a Deathwatch RPG. Deathwatch fight for Ordo Xenos, it's what they are for.

Daemons and chaos are already covered in other books, reprinting it would be redundant.

Deathwatch is sold as a Space Marine game. Presenting a space marine game with such a limitation would be (and maybe it is) a very poor decision. Telling players they can't fight the arch enemies of the marines because it's not in their job descripotion (because that's what the designers chose) would have been catastrophically bad.

Those other books are not Deathwatch and you are missing the point every time. Deathwatch doesn't say what books you might want to use, nor are those books set up for Deathwatch play.

There is clearly an organisational problem here. It wouldn't be so bad if there was a dedicated Chaos sourcebook designed for each game, but there isn't. Creatures Anathema was written well before Deathwatch was designed. Even then it doesn't cover Chaos; it merely contains a couple of specific entities. There is no info on Chaos space marine forces, units, gear, magic or anything beyond that.

Deathwatch, afaict, also doesn't include rules for creating your own Xenos of any kind. Yes you can make your own shit up, but if the game is intended to be Space Marines vs Evil Aliens, then you would think that they'd give you more to work with in that area. Instead you have Tau and Tyranid with very little of the former (no kroot or vespid, none of their magical stuff/ethereals or whatever).

It is strange that people defend this, wouldn't you want a 40k game to give you all this stuff, or at least explicit tools to DIY? Neither of those preclude you from creating your own ideas do they.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452361"I KNOW ITS NOT ENOUGH TO PLAY THE GAME BECAUSE I DONT PLAY THE GAME BECAUSE ITS NOT ENOUGH AND IF YOU HAVE PLAYED THE GAME WITH THEM YOU ARE UNABLE TO"

Cool bro. It's neat that you've got an "opinion" and everything, but it's also pretty clear you haven't been paying attention to descriptions of how people play the game, and don't play it yourself and are therefore kind of prone to saying dumb, untrue things about play.

But this makes no sense. You've already alluded to the fact the game doesn't give you enough as you've resorted to creating your own (or using other user created) content which presumably you did to fill in the blanks as it were.

And why would it be necessary to have plauyed the game to see what's lacking in the book? Anyone can look at the book, the adversaries section isn't that big.

I own a lot of the 40K RPG books.  They all look quite nice and I wanted to like the games.  I was even willing to put up with the shitty system and its high whiff factor (I don't care what people say, having to always give out modifiers = crap design IMO)

I was dumb and kept buying the damn things because they looked good and I kept thinking, "surely the next book will finally have the content I want".  But they never did.  And I finally gave up after the travesty that was the Deathwatch core book.  It was the last straw for me.

"You don't need official stats, you can just make shit up yourself" = complete failure to properly design the game.  Even if it was easy to create proper stat blocks for adversaries (it isn't), I'd still have the argument of: if I have to do all the work myself, what the fuck am I paying for?

Again, most of us buy books that other people design so we don't have to do it ourselves.  If we just did everything ourselves, there would be no industry.

Frankly, I'm not nearly as annoyed with the lack of material as I am with the attitude that I should be content with the lack of material.  There is not only one right way to play a RPG in the 40K universe!  The books should be written to accomodate more than just "CoC-like Investigations in Space".

If I want to play a campaign about the Battle for Armageddon, I should be able to.  If I want to play a campaign about Eldar pirates, I should be able to.  If I want to play a campaign about Ork clans Gorkamorka style, I should be able to.  If I want to play a campaign about a Rogue Trader ship filled with all different xenos crewmembers, I should be able to.  The 40K universe supports a lot of different things, why make the games so limited in scope?

The really dumb part is that if they were going to make a 40K game that only played one way, why not make that one way fit the actual popular stuff like the computer games and wargame?!?

Quote from: jgants;452425I own a lot of the 40K RPG books.  They all look quite nice and I wanted to like the games.  I was even willing to put up with the shitty system and its high whiff factor (I don't care what people say, having to always give out modifiers = crap design IMO)

I was dumb and kept buying the damn things because they looked good and I kept thinking, "surely the next book will finally have the content I want".  But they never did.  And I finally gave up after the travesty that was the Deathwatch core book.  It was the last straw for me.

"You don't need official stats, you can just make shit up yourself" = complete failure to properly design the game.  Even if it was easy to create proper stat blocks for adversaries (it isn't), I'd still have the argument of: if I have to do all the work myself, what the fuck am I paying for?

Again, most of us buy books that other people design so we don't have to do it ourselves.  If we just did everything ourselves, there would be no industry.

Frankly, I'm not nearly as annoyed with the lack of material as I am with the attitude that I should be content with the lack of material.  There is not only one right way to play a RPG in the 40K universe!  The books should be written to accomodate more than just "CoC-like Investigations in Space".

If I want to play a campaign about the Battle for Armageddon, I should be able to.  If I want to play a campaign about Eldar pirates, I should be able to.  If I want to play a campaign about Ork clans Gorkamorka style, I should be able to.  If I want to play a campaign about a Rogue Trader ship filled with all different xenos crewmembers, I should be able to.  The 40K universe supports a lot of different things, why make the games so limited in scope?

The really dumb part is that if they were going to make a 40K game that only played one way, why not make that one way fit the actual popular stuff like the computer games and wargame?!?

Why would you buy an RPG about Deathwatch members of the Imperial Space Marines and then complain that it doesn't allow you to play Eldar? Sounds like you wanted a generic 40K RPG. Deathwatch etc are clearly, obviously, upfrontedly not generic 40K RPGs. Why would you buy cupcakes and then complain that they're not cookies when they're obviously, upfrontedly not cookies?

Quote from: Géza Echs;452442Why would you buy an RPG about Deathwatch members of the Imperial Space Marines and then complain that it doesn't allow you to play Eldar? Sounds like you wanted a generic 40K RPG. Deathwatch etc are clearly, obviously, upfrontedly not generic 40K RPGs. Why would you buy cupcakes and then complain that they're not cookies when they're obviously, upfrontedly not cookies?

The sad answer to that obvious question is.  Because some people always hope against hope that when they rub that lamp a Genie will pop up.  Even when that lamp is clearly labeled "NO GENIE INSIDE".  You just never know - maybe that's just what the Genie wants you to think.

Oh and for bonus points they get to feel entitled to bitch about a product they purchased.  As if somehow buying a game gives them entitlement and stock in the product.

Quote from: Géza Echs;452442Why would you buy an RPG about Deathwatch members of the Imperial Space Marines and then complain that it doesn't allow you to play Eldar? Sounds like you wanted a generic 40K RPG. Deathwatch etc are clearly, obviously, upfrontedly not generic 40K RPGs. Why would you buy cupcakes and then complain that they're not cookies when they're obviously, upfrontedly not cookies?

This isn't rpg.net, misrepresenting other people's comments is not cool.

He didn't say that he expected DW to do that.

Quote from: kryyst;452445The sad answer to that obvious question is.  Because some people always hope against hope that when they rub that lamp a Genie will pop up.  Even when that lamp is clearly labeled "NO GENIE INSIDE".  You just never know - maybe that's just what the Genie wants you to think.

Oh and for bonus points they get to feel entitled to bitch about a product they purchased.  As if somehow buying a game gives them entitlement and stock in the product.

Well, to be fair he might have a point about there not being enough adversaries in the core rules. It looks like there's enough to me, but I haven't tried to run a game. Being unsatisfied because a game about space marines doesn't allow you to run a game about Ork player characters, however, seems right out. It's not a generic ruleset; it's like complaining that Harn doesn't allow one to run a Lord of the Rings campaign right out of the core rules.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452446This isn't rpg.net, misrepresenting other people's comments is not cool.

What?! It's not?! Oh, thank God you were here to point that out to me. Hey, so long as you're giving location advice, where's the best place around here to get a good kebab?

QuoteHe didn't say that he expected DW to do that.

Sure he did. Here's the paragraph:

QuoteIf I want to play a campaign about the Battle for Armageddon, I should be able to. If I want to play a campaign about Eldar pirates, I should be able to. If I want to play a campaign about Ork clans Gorkamorka style, I should be able to. If I want to play a campaign about a Rogue Trader ship filled with all different xenos crewmembers, I should be able to. The 40K universe supports a lot of different things, why make the games so limited in scope?

Admittedly, he's not just complaining about DW being about space marines. He's also complaining about what DH and RT were obviously themed towards.

Quote from: Géza Echs;452448What?! It's not?! Oh, thank God you were here to point that out to me. Hey, so long as you're giving location advice, where's the best place around here to get a good kebab?

My arse.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452418But this makes no sense. You've already alluded to the fact the game doesn't give you enough as you've resorted to creating your own (or using other user created) content which presumably you did to fill in the blanks as it were.

I've done this with every RPG I've ever owned, as I said earlier, Mr. "Don't misrepresent other people's comments". The enemies I'm creating are homebrewed villains that don't appear in the setting at all other than in my games. Other than them, I'm using the bog standard guys in the back of the book, vehicles from RoB, and the leaders are Ascension-level characters.

There are a few reasons why I thought DW would be, on balance, worth getting, and of all the games I think the idea of a zealous action packed dawn of war vibe game is appealing the most. RT just struggles with the lack of information more than any other. DH probably the least, but it speaks to me the least.
In an idea world (ie one where I win the lottery every week) owning all the 40k books would be something I would pursue. So issues of quality (or perhaps even quanity) aside I have decided to give the game a go and brought the core book. I think that I may try, money permitting, and make a little hobby of collecting these books, if only for something to read. If the whole thing turns out to be a waste of money and a heap of execrable chaos spawn, well so be it.
I stand by my views; I do think FFG really could have made better decisions - or perhaps GW could have let them (we may never know). To be fair the 40k universe doesn't allow for as much latitude as it's scale suggests. Not canonically anyway (though FFG have added their own canon it would seem). Perhaps DW supplements will succeed where books like Battlefleet Koronus and RT fail. Perhaps i'll end up with enough books that i'll get little more than a hernia.

FFG were basically given their own part of the universe to carve off and run their own canon in as long as it doesn't effect the rest of GW's content.

The big disconnect is people assuming that FFG is or was ever putting out a Warhammer 40k rpg.  That was never the case.  They simply are putting out RPG's set in the Warhammer 40k universe.

Now here's to hoping that if they do ever put out a rounded 40k RPG it'll be closer to the WFRP 3rd ed style of rules then the the current line.

Quote from: kryyst;452495FFG were basically given their own part of the universe to carve off and run their own canon in as long as it doesn't effect the rest of GW's content.

The big disconnect is people assuming that FFG is or was ever putting out a Warhammer 40k rpg.  That was never the case.  They simply are putting out RPG's set in the Warhammer 40k universe.

Now here's to hoping that if they do ever put out a rounded 40k RPG it'll be closer to the WFRP 3rd ed style of rules then the the current line.

Ugh.

I don't understand what the problem is.

If FFG made the same shit for every game (chaos sorcerers and the other shit you mentioned) like putting it all in the Deathwatch corebook, you'd complain about repeating bullshit.  By the way, you should check out Disciples of the Dark Gods.

Since they don't repeat themselves too much (other than rules / permutations) you complain about that instead.

Fuck.

Quote from: Blackhand;452518I don't understand what the problem is.

If FFG made the same shit for every game (chaos sorcerers and the other shit you mentioned) like putting it all in the Deathwatch corebook, you'd complain about repeating bullshit.  By the way, you should check out Disciples of the Dark Gods.

Since they don't repeat themselves too much (other than rules / permutations) you complain about that.

This is because this thread was started in bad faith to begin with, and all he ever wanted to do was bitch about it.  It doesn't actually matter what the game actually did or what argument used to "prove" it's complete lack of merit, because he's really just pissed that the developers lacked the psychic insight to reach into his mind and produce precisely the exact game he always imagined.

Quote from: J Arcane;452519This is because this thread was started in bad faith to begin with, and all he ever wanted to do was bitch about it.  It doesn't actually matter what the game actually did or what argument used to "prove" it's complete lack of merit, because he's really just pissed that the developers lacked the psychic insight to reach into his mind and produce precisely the exact game he always imagined.

Yeah he's been like that for a while.

I might take him more seriously, but I've already heard all this shit.

I'm hardcore into Warhammer (every flavor) and I own thousands of dollars worth of miniatures.  As a fan, I know that almost every single rendition of something in the Imperium is going to be different.  Every single novel has something in it that's "weird" and totally not in the wargame.

The FFG games have a fantastic design.  They are not "broken".

Ghost Whistler is "broken" record.

YMMV according to how much other Warhammer stuff you own.  Wargames and everything.  Not that you'll have a cheap experience if you don't have ten thousand pages of fluff and wargame stats, but it will certainly be broadened and brightened.

Of course if you play AT-43 instead you need to shut the fuck up about how the 40k RPG sucks.  It's obviously not for you.

On a more positive note, one of my SM PCs took out a rogue warhound titan single-handedly on Sunday's session. He planted democharges in a vehicle hangar filled with jet fuel barrels and had the rest of the squad at the other end of town causing a ruckus by taking out the chaos heretics making a flank attack.

In its haste, the titan smashed through the vehicle hangar to get to them, and he set off the charges. I ruled that the blast was too close (within 5m) for the void shields to protect it, and the 11000 gallons of jet fuel set it on fire with a critical hit when I rolled damage. Then he jumped on top of it while it writhed and screamed using a jet pack, tore open the crew hatch, and killed the princeps and moderati inside with frag grenades and his chainsword. The fight ended with him standing atop the burning hulk of the dead titan shouting praises to the Emperor. It was a pretty awesome fight.

Awesome visual.

Quote from: Blackhand;452518I don't understand what the problem is.

If FFG made the same shit for every game (chaos sorcerers and the other shit you mentioned) like putting it all in the Deathwatch corebook, you'd complain about repeating bullshit.  By the way, you should check out Disciples of the Dark Gods.

Since they don't repeat themselves too much (other than rules / permutations) you complain about that instead.

Fuck.

What you call the same shit are the setting's adversaries (from the imperial perspective). These are hardly 'shit'; they are pretty important.

But they are already repeating themselves: each game uses the same rules, has the same 'what is roleplaying' spiel, etc. And putting words in my mouth isn't going to give you credibility. I didn't complain about repetition at all, nor did I advocate they do so.

Disciples is, again, a DH book. I really don't understand how peopel think this is a reasonable argument. What's in there is optimised, balanced, and designed for that game and it's premise. THere is some information that might be useful, but not enough to warrant spending £30+ on the entire book. How can you argue against repetition and then advocate this?

The problem is this is how FFG have set out their stall; it's not going to change. I have no problem with a 3+ game format at all, but it calls for a fundamental level of compatibility and the explanation as to how one might cross over materials. Just saying 'buy this book because it's got ten out of 200 pages of useful information which will still require work' is surely as crazy as advocating the complete reptition of material.

They have chosen to design a crunchy game and devote book space to including at least one adventure as well as repeating background on the Imperium.

But the fact remains: you need adversaries.

And if you choose to give space over, in books like CA or BfK, to homegrown aliens (Slaught, or Rak'Tol) then you are using space that could be given over to something more in keeping witht he setting. I personally don't want FFG's own ideas taking preference in that way. This is not a comment on the quality of those ideas; it's me saying that i want what's in 40k and 40k canon in my 40k experience as that's what I'm paying for. If FFG want to do a book of their own homegrown ideas that's fine, good luck to them. But that's space and design time given over - however you rationalise it (orks don't exist in the JR, NEcrons haven't been invented yet, etc) - to things that are not in 40k.

I'm not remotely asking for FFG to read my mind, neither am I a broken record, I'm questioning the discrepenacy between providing what constitutes an established setting used for the game, and what actually constitutes that game as a finished product. Expecting to encounter NEcrons, Dark Eldar or whatever in a 40k game cannot possibly be deemed unreasonable and if your judgement is that's the case then why are you even responding?

Quote from: J Arcane;452519This is because this thread was started in bad faith to begin with, and all he ever wanted to do was bitch about it.  It doesn't actually matter what the game actually did or what argument used to "prove" it's complete lack of merit, because he's really just pissed that the developers lacked the psychic insight to reach into his mind and produce precisely the exact game he always imagined.

Unlike your lack of psychic insight into my intentions of course.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452567Disciples is, again, a DH book. I really don't understand how peopel think this is a reasonable argument. What's in there is optimised, balanced, and designed for that game and it's premise. THere is some information that might be useful, but not enough to warrant spending £30+ on the entire book.

Once again, this is a factually untrue argument. The lines crossover relatively easily, and the antagonists more than most other parts. If you think DH antagonists can't be used against SMs, you are simply ignorant of DH antagonists, the capabilities of SMs, the horde rules, how equipment works, how combat works, how vehicles work, how psychic powers work, etc. Pretty much every part of the game's mechanics, in fact.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452570Once again, this is a factually untrue argument. The lines crossover relatively easily, and the antagonists more than most other parts. If you think DH antagonists can't be used against SMs, you are simply ignorant of DH antagonists, the capabilities of SMs, the horde rules, how equipment works, how combat works, how vehicles work, how psychic powers work, etc. Pretty much every part of the game's mechanics, in fact.

They may or may not cross over easily.

But that still means having to buy books for a small portion of info because they aren't optimised for Space Marine adventures.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452571They may or may not cross over easily.

But that still means having to buy books for a small portion of info because they aren't optimised for Space Marine adventures.

What a lazy, fucking idiot you are.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452607What a lazy, fucking idiot you are.

Totally fucking uncalled for. You are way out of line call me a lazy fucking idiot because I don't have the money to buy every book released for the 40k games. Explain how that's lazy you fucking troll!

Quote from: Géza Echs;452442Why would you buy an RPG about Deathwatch members of the Imperial Space Marines and then complain that it doesn't allow you to play Eldar? Sounds like you wanted a generic 40K RPG. Deathwatch etc are clearly, obviously, upfrontedly not generic 40K RPGs. Why would you buy cupcakes and then complain that they're not cookies when they're obviously, upfrontedly not cookies?

The topic of the thread has drifted a bit, you know.  My comment about Eldar, etc, was in reference to the idea that the only proper way to do a 40K RPG is to have a very narrow theme.  I think that's bullshit.

I, personally, could care less about running a Xenos campaign.  But I don't see why when other people ask for the rules to do such a thing they get nothing but grief.  And surely the Rogue Trader line could have been a much more Xenos friendly game - there's no reason at all for the rules not to support having an Ork Freebooter or Eldar Pirate crew instead (and yes, in a seperate supplement, fine - but it should at least exist).

Quote from: kryyst;452495The big disconnect is people assuming that FFG is or was ever putting out a Warhammer 40k rpg.  That was never the case.  They simply are putting out RPG's set in the Warhammer 40k universe.

I'd even be 100% cool with that IF they actually bothered to fully support those ideas.

DH was incomplete for years.  It should have started out a lot closer to the old Inquisitor game in terms of power level and scope.

RT is still badly incomplete.  This is a game that really should feature more xenos, and at least include rules for everything in Battlefleet Gothic.

DW is barely there.  Here's a game that should feature pretty much everything in the base 40K game because its all about soldiers.

Quote from: Blackhand;452518I don't understand what the problem is.

If FFG made the same shit for every game (chaos sorcerers and the other shit you mentioned) like putting it all in the Deathwatch corebook, you'd complain about repeating bullshit.  By the way, you should check out Disciples of the Dark Gods.

Since they don't repeat themselves too much (other than rules / permutations) you complain about that instead.

Fuck.

As has been said, they do repeat the same stuff for every game - just badly.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to try and lug a dozen or two different hardbacks to a gaming session and try and figure out where everything is.

Now, if FFG had something similar to DDI like D&D has, that'd be different.  But it doesn't, so spreading material out is a pain and extremely expensive.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452607What a lazy, fucking idiot you are.

Again, what is the theory here?  Why should we buy extremely expensive books if we have to do most of the work ourselves?

Not everyone wants to spend hours trying to dink around with stat blocks.

The industry is trending towards less prep work not more.  People want fast, quickly playable games now.  That doesn't make people lazy, they simply don't have the time with busy careers, families, etc.

Pseudo is welcome to speak for himself, but I suspect his annoyance was in Ghost repeating the same goddamn incompatibility claims for the umpteenth time in reply to a post where it was pointed out to not be a problem, by someone who as actually played the fucking game.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452609Totally fucking uncalled for. You are way out of line call me a lazy fucking idiot because I don't have the money to buy every book released for the 40k games. Explain how that's lazy you fucking troll!

It's pretty simple, you fucking baby.

First you complain that there aren't enough monsters in the book. Then you complain about how you don't want to come up with your own monsters nor do you want to use perfectly acceptable and compatible monsters from other 40KRPG books.

When it is pointed out to you repeatedly that your claims about "optimised", "balanced", monsters etc. are baseless and unfounded by people who have actually transferred monsters between games, you ignore the comments and simply repeat your babble over and over.

So in brief, it's 100% called for, you self-absorbed, pretentious, whiny, stupid, self-righteous cunt.

Quote from: jgants;452611Again, what is the theory here?  Why should we buy extremely expensive books if we have to do most of the work ourselves?

Not everyone wants to spend hours trying to dink around with stat blocks.

Once again, it's pretty obvious you don't know shit about the game. Do you know what it takes to convert a single enemy from Dark Heresy to Deathwatch?

Protip: Nothing.

Do you know what it takes to convert a single antagonist from any other book in either of the other two lines into a horde?

Protip: Double the Wounds stat for Magnitude and treat them as a horde.

If this takes you "hours" to do, you are an idiot.

QuoteThe industry is trending towards less prep work not more.  People want fast, quickly playable games now.  That doesn't make people lazy, they simply don't have the time with busy careers, families, etc.

These same people spend hours and hours of their "busy" lives posting on RPG forums, watching TV, etc. At the start of this hobby, people like EGG had wives and kids (and televisions), and it didn't seem to interfere with their ability to plan games extensively. So yeah, laziness _is_ a pretty good description for it.

Quote from: jgants;452611People want fast, quickly playable games now.  That doesn't make people lazy, they simply don't have the time with busy careers, families, etc.

especially when they are new at the game, which has a significant crunch level, and have never run or played it before.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452613It's pretty simple, you fucking baby.

First you complain that there aren't enough monsters in the book. Then you complain about how you don't want to come up with your own monsters nor do you want to use perfectly acceptable and compatible monsters from other 40KRPG books.

When it is pointed out to you repeatedly that your claims about "optimised", "balanced", monsters etc. are baseless and unfounded by people who have actually transferred monsters between games, you ignore the comments and simply repeat your babble over and over.

So in brief, it's 100% called for, you self-absorbed, pretentious, whiny, stupid, self-righteous cunt.

other books I don't own and would have to buy - on top of support for DW that I might otherwise want (such as Rites of Battle, with it's chapter creation rules, extra gear and whatever). How do you not understand this point?

Quote from: J Arcane;452612Pseudo is welcome to speak for himself, but I suspect his annoyance was in Ghost repeating the same goddamn incompatibility claims for the umpteenth time in reply to a post where it was pointed out to not be a problem, by someone who as actually played the fucking game.

You've really not read the thread have you.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452618You've really not read the thread have you.

Every post, you hypocritical, ignorant jackass.

Quote from: J Arcane;452619Every post, you hypocritical, ignorant jackass.

Not one thing i've said has been hypocritical or ignorant; your abuse is totally uncalled for.

You just don't seem to understand the point: the books you two keep harping on about are optimised for DH - that means you are paying full price (which is an issue itself) for a fraction of the book's content. Do you seriously think that's a sensible way to develop a game? I've already said that there's only one chapter in CA that's useful 0- the Xeno's chapter. The same can be said of DotDG (from what i've seen, since I don't own it).

I'm not made of money, perhaps you should consider that not everyone who wants to play DW is even prepapred to just buy up every other 40k book for even a couple of pages of information.

If someone offered me these books for free, I'd bite their hand off to get them. You are as unreasonable as your abuse is unsolicited. resorting to the most arrogant level of bile to someone you seem unable to comprehend isn't in a position to buy all these wonderful books.

And I shouldn't really have to. requiring books from DH to play DW in order to include Orks in a game about, as you said, Ordos Xenos makes about as much sense as including orks in a game about the Inquisition. Can you not see there are better ways of portioning out this info? Sadly neither could FFG and I will have to make do with that. Now I'm prepared to give that a go, but don't insult me because I don't have the wherewithall to buy every book for Dark Heresy.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452615Once again, it's pretty obvious you don't know shit about the game. Do you know what it takes to convert a single enemy from Dark Heresy to Deathwatch?

Protip: Nothing.

Do you know what it takes to convert a single antagonist from any other book in either of the other two lines into a horde?

Protip: Double the Wounds stat for Magnitude and treat them as a horde.

If this takes you "hours" to do, you are an idiot.



These same people spend hours and hours of their "busy" lives posting on RPG forums, watching TV, etc. At the start of this hobby, people like EGG had wives and kids (and televisions), and it didn't seem to interfere with their ability to plan games extensively. So yeah, laziness _is_ a pretty good description for it.

I've no idea how much the grinning dog knows abotu the game and how it works beyond owning the books, but most people in my position don't know 'shit' about the game - because they haven't read or played it. What else do you expect?

It may be the simplest thing in the world to convert stats, but I dont' see anywhere in the rules the covers this (there might be, i haven't got to that part yet). and if it's so easy then surely a couple of sidebars would be all that's needed. Especially for something you are so wound up about that therefore must be an intrinsic part of the GM's job.

And you are now quanifying your accusation by saying I'm too lazy to convert stats from a book I don't own that's a supplement for a game i've yet to buy (and having brought DW subsequently read)? Are you nuts?

And even so, it's a perfectly reasonable position for someone to take, when buying a fully designed rpg, that they don't want to do that kind of work - that's why games are written for others to buy. Otherwise we'd all just design our own 40k game and slag off those that refuse to do likewise as similarly lazy.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452617other books I don't own and would have to buy - on top of support for DW that I might otherwise want (such as Rites of Battle, with it's chapter creation rules, extra gear and whatever). How do you not understand this point?

Protip: If you are unhappy with the antagonists in the corebook and unwilling to create your own antagonists, then you will have to buy books that contain antagonists.

These books exist already, and more are on their way (Mark of the Xenos is coming out in a month or so, as I said way back at the very start of the thread, another point you've been ignoring).

You don't have a point, you have a pair of childish complaints that are set up so as to be impossible to satisfy both simultaneously.

Hypocritical: you attack people for trolling, despite this thread being one giant troll from the start. You attack me for assuming things about your posts while making a pretty large assumption about my reading habits.

Ignorant: you repeatedly make claims about the game that are false, and uphold them despite it being repeatedly pointed out to you. You've made it abundantly clear you've neither read nor played the game.

So yes, hypocritical, and ignorant.  Jackass is mostly for flavor, but then I also consider anyone who makes a thread in bad faith asking "questions" they already think they know the answers to just so they have an excuse to bitch about the, and troll people who actually play a jackass.

Quote

Quote from: J Arcane;452626Hypocritical: you attack people for trolling, despite this thread being one giant troll from the start. You attack me for assuming things about your posts while making a pretty large assumption about my reading habits.

A thread itself cannot be trolling, since trolling is the very act of infiltrating a thread to talk irrelevant shit - like you've been doing. And attack is a rather motive word, even though that is exactly what you've been doing. You have contributed nothing other than abuse and insults. To what end?

The thread has a contentious title for sure, but that doesn't make it trolling. It's a thread discussing a game in a gaming forum.

QuoteIgnorant: you repeatedly make claims about the game that are false, and uphold them despite it being repeatedly pointed out to you. You've made it abundantly clear you've neither read nor played the game.

Pointing out something repeatedly doesn't make it true. People making claims whiel getting their knickers in a twist don't become more credible the more upset they get, and there are other threads i've visited where people have opinted out the differences between stat info across the games. Now does that mean those differences can be overcome or that it isn't easy to do so? I don't know because I don't have that information.

But - AGAIN - that STILL requires buying those books for that fraction of content. What part of that do you not understand?

QuoteSo yes, hypocritical, and ignorant.  Jackass is mostly for flavor, but then I also consider anyone who makes a thread in bad faith asking "questions" they already think they know the answers to just so they have an excuse to bitch about the, and troll people who actually play a jackass.

Who the fuck are you to tell the OP they are posting in bad faith? Sounds to me like the pair of you are wetnosed fanboys. Time to grow up I think and stop behaving like a spoilt child.

Uh oh, time for a diaper change.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452629Uh oh, time for a diaper change.

Why do you continue to ignore the point about having to buy the extra books?

The surest sign of a troll is semantic games over what constitutes trolling.

Quote from: jgants;452611The topic of the thread has drifted a bit, you know.  My comment about Eldar, etc, was in reference to the idea that the only proper way to do a 40K RPG is to have a very narrow theme.  I think that's bullshit.

While I think that's a valid point, you phrased it in such a way (by complaining about the core book) as to distract the reader from it. That is, I think saying "I would have greatly preferred a generic 40K game" is fine and valid. But you came across as saying "I bought DW because I wanted a generic 40K game, and DW sucks because it isn't what I wanted", which is less valid and fine. All that aside, however, I think a generic 40K game would be a great thing -- but I also think it would be entirely overwhelming and monstrously unwieldy.

QuoteI, personally, could care less about running a Xenos campaign.  But I don't see why when other people ask for the rules to do such a thing they get nothing but grief.  And surely the Rogue Trader line could have been a much more Xenos friendly game - there's no reason at all for the rules not to support having an Ork Freebooter or Eldar Pirate crew instead (and yes, in a seperate supplement, fine - but it should at least exist).

I think it would be neat if FFG released a supplement with Xeno PC rules. That would be an interesting direction to take part of the line. I think the problem with people's requests to play as Xenos is simply the tone. That is, they complain that DH, RT, or DW are not the games they want them to be despite the fact that it's clear that they weren't designed to be the games they wanted, and then condemn that discrepancy between reality and desire as a flaw in the game itself. Which it really isn't. If I want A Game of Thrones to be a jaunty tale of superheroes like Martin's Wild Cards books, it would be ludicrous of me to say that AGoT is flawed because there's no superheroes in it like I wanted.

That being said, I'd be totally down with supplementary rules that allow for the creation of Xeno PCs. And if that's all people are asking for (rather than criticizing DW as somehow "broken" because it's not the game they envisioned in their mind's eye), then cool, cool, cool.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452630Why do you continue to ignore the point about having to buy the extra books?

Because you've already said you're either too stupid or lazy to come up with your own monsters. So your only remaining option is to buy a book containing them.

Quote from: Géza Echs;452635That is, they complain that DH, RT, or DW are not the games they want them to be despite the fact that it's clear that they weren't designed to be the games they wanted, and then condemn that discrepancy between reality and desire as a flaw in the game itself.

HOw is it clear?

There can't be many if any logical reasons why Xenos are sa yet largely unplayable when they have given rules for Kroot and Ork (of all things).

Its far from clear and I think the only thing people expected was to be able to play Imperium characters and be able to face off against the remainder of the setting. I can see that Dark eldar and possibly Necrons might get short shrift, but that's it.

However even playable Xenos aren't a priority, at least for me. I have no problem with waiting for rules to play Eldar or Tau (which is really all that's needed, certainly for now).

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452636Because you've already said you're either too stupid or lazy to come up with your own monsters. So your only remaining option is to buy a book containing them.

And you have missed the point entirely.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452646And you have missed the point entirely.

Oh, I understand you don't want to buy books (or rather, you only want to buy books with DW branding, except for the antagonist book coming out in a month or so which has now been mentioned twice in this very thread), but you've already ruled out the only other alternative, so basically, there is no solution to your fake "issue".

Also, your reason for not wanting to buy non-DW books is a non-reason, as has been pointed out repeatedly. You continuously repeat it despite admitting your own ignorance in the matter and ignoring comments from those who are not ignorant of the situation.

Thus, lazy and stupid.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452645HOw is it clear?

It's clear because DW never pretends to be anything but a game about Deathwatch members of the Imperial Space Marines in the book or in the advertising.

I think a perfectly valid point could be made about the weird scattershot presentation of various elements of the 40k universe in the FFG games.

However, Ghost Whistler is not making that point. In fact event horizon of his thought process is stained with the destroyed images of any argument that one could make, essentially ruining this thread from the very beginning.

It is, however, amusing to watch the monkey babble and fling poo at the zookeepers.

And so I sign off with the all to apropos:

Entertain Me, Motherfuckers!

The scattershot method of filling things in is part due to restrictions by GW.  At no point will another company be allowed to publish, say, a definitive guide to the Eldar, Dark Eldar, or whatever, because 1.) Then they wouldn't need to buy the Codices even though they don't play 40k (which many do), and 2.) GW changes and retcons things on a whim to suit the current edition.

So, instead of a Dark Eldar book or chapter that goes Codex item by Codex item and converts to RPG of your choice, they give you a guy here when present in a Dark Heresy adventure, a few threats here in a Rogue Trader section, etc.  Nature of the Beast.

Another reason is that the RPG section of FFG is very influenced by narrative and thematic storytelling.  The different games are meant to give different "experiences" that emulate the sub-genre within 40k.  In other words, they are meant to emulate the 40k fiction, not emulate the 40k universe in a "world in motion" manner because such a thing has never existed in the minds of anyone at GW.

Quote from: CRKrueger;452655The scattershot method of filling things in is part due to restrictions by GW.  At no point will another company be allowed to publish, say, a definitive guide to the Eldar, Dark Eldar, or whatever, because 1.) Then they wouldn't need to buy the Codices even though they don't play 40k (which many do), and 2.) GW changes and retcons things on a whim to suit the current edition.

So, instead of a Dark Eldar book or chapter that goes Codex item by Codex item and converts to RPG of your choice, they give you a guy here when present in a Dark Heresy adventure, a few threats here in a Rogue Trader section, etc.  Nature of the Beast.

See, that is understandable, if rather short sighted on the business front.  I understand that FFG is legally limited.  However, while I enjoyed RT, for example, the decision to include Kroot (a minor race with a very small fanbase) and Orks (in canon they are literally a pestilence!) as playable races, while leaving out space elves (with the huge built in fan base of anything elf like AND numerous canon instances of working with/being tolerable to the Imperium in RT sized doses) seemed positively bizzaro world!

Of course, you don't actually NEED a Codex style book either. A single 'Anathema' style book could cover all the 'human like' races from a playable aspect without actually treading on the toes of GW, just as a spitballing idea.

Of course, I've never really LIKED the career/rank format chosen by FFG, but the restriction it seems to have put on, say, Xenos, seems to reinforce my dislike by actually hobbling the development of the game.  

QuoteAnother reason is that the RPG section of FFG is very influenced by narrative and thematic storytelling.  The different games are meant to give different "experiences" that emulate the sub-genre within 40k.  In other words, they are meant to emulate the 40k fiction, not emulate the 40k universe in a "world in motion" manner because such a thing has never existed in the minds of anyone at GW.

Interesting observation but irrelevant.  People can play narrative and thematic space elves as easily as they can play narrative and thematic superhuman warrior monks with two hearts and big fucking guns.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452630Why do you continue to ignore the point about having to buy the extra books?

I'm not exactly sure why this is a problem.  Those books are fucking beautiful!

Also, in response to the position that the "scattershot" way FFG is going about this is all wrong:  No.

Black Crusade is coming out soon.  Can't wait to hear the bitching.

Here's a protip:  Don't buy the fucking books.  Don't buy the game.  You obviously don't like it and think you can do better - SO DO SO.  

Shut the fuck up.

Quote from: Spike;452658Interesting observation but irrelevant.  People can play narrative and thematic space elves as easily as they can play narrative and thematic superhuman warrior monks with two hearts and big fucking guns.

The fact that the 40k rpgs are geared towards emulating the fiction and novels is relevant, since 90% of that fiction focuses on the Imperium and the people who live in it. GW has never really cared about novels that are not just about "Imperials fighting enemy X", told from the Imperials perspective. The Eldar, beloved as they are, have gotten like 5 books during their entire existence and only one of those (the one by Thorpe) is worth anything.

Sadly, the truth is that GW really, really, really wants to make the Imperium and the Space Marines the focus of 40k, and it's obvious that FFG were told to do just that - games where you play as an Imperial agent/soldier/magnificent bastard.

Quote from: Ramrod;452700The fact that the 40k rpgs are geared towards emulating the fiction and novels is relevant, since 90% of that fiction focuses on the Imperium and the people who live in it. GW has never really cared about novels that are not just about "Imperials fighting enemy X", told from the Imperials perspective. The Eldar, beloved as they are, have gotten like 5 books during their entire existence and only one of those (the one by Thorpe) is worth anything.

Sadly, the truth is that GW really, really, really wants to make the Imperium and the Space Marines the focus of 40k, and it's obvious that FFG were told to do just that - games where you play as an Imperial agent/soldier/magnificent bastard.

There is nothing new about that, they have repeatedly said that 40k is Imperium-centric.

Everything is told from that perspective.

What's irritating is that people are just now figuring this out.  This perception that it has become (or wants to become) this sort of generic space opera seems to be prevalent amongst folk who don't really have much to do with 40k, i.e. rpg'rs who seldom wargame.

Indeed some of the reasoning behind these arguments makes me chuckle, but my basic opinion is that the negative opinions of non-40krs on this subject are completely irrelevant because they lack a certain amount of insight - the thought that these games weren't strictly made for them (the rabid rpg'rs) and is instead actually aimed at wargamers is appalling.

So it's kinda funny.  Most 40kr's I know are in love with ALL the games and looking forward to the next one.  

And after that, there will be more.

Since you can never reconcile the facts on your own, let me illustrate a few points...  

1) You ARE missing material from Deathwatch, and all the other games.  
2) It's largely irrelevant, because all Warhammer games share the same basic mechanics.  A little work, but not a lot.
3) If you're not playing with minis, you ARE doing it wrong.

Quote from: Blackhand;452670I'm not exactly sure why this is a problem.  Those books are fucking beautiful!

Also, in response to the position that the "scattershot" way FFG is going about this is all wrong:  No.

Black Crusade is coming out soon.  Can't wait to hear the bitching.

Here's a protip:  Don't buy the fucking books.  Don't buy the game.  You obviously don't like it and think you can do better - SO DO SO.  

Shut the fuck up.

Here's another: read the fucking thread.

Quote from: Spike;452650I think a perfectly valid point could be made about the weird scattershot presentation of various elements of the 40k universe in the FFG games.

I have made exactly that point. Clearly you are another of these idiots that doesn't fucking read the fucking thread and instead goes off half cocked shouting abuse. I'm sick of being insulted by people like you; learn to FUCKING READ!

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452647Oh, I understand you don't want to buy books (or rather, you only want to buy books with DW branding, except for the antagonist book coming out in a month or so which has now been mentioned twice in this very thread), but you've already ruled out the only other alternative, so basically, there is no solution to your fake "issue".

Also, your reason for not wanting to buy non-DW books is a non-reason, as has been pointed out repeatedly. You continuously repeat it despite admitting your own ignorance in the matter and ignoring comments from those who are not ignorant of the situation.

Thus, lazy and stupid.

Again, putting words into my mouth.

I said that I don't want to have to buy books for a tiny fraction of content given taht a) it's not terribly efficient and b) it's fucking expensive!

Why do you need to mention Mark of Xenos? We all know it's in the offing, that hasn't been denied. But there is no word onw hat it specifically contains or when it's out, so at the moment it doesn't exist.

You are STILL MISSING THE FUCKING POINT.

I shouldn't have to design my own rules, stats and whatever for core 40k antagonists in a 40k game. And I shouldn't be made a pariah because I happen to want a game i'm paying for to do the work for me - that's what we pay for. Why go to all the trouble of producing lavish 400 page books only to leave out such central elements? Why employ a haphazard approach to disseminating that information? Why prioritise creating your own ideas (and having to create them) over creating stats for actual canon enemies in a licensed setting? There is no real logic to the way FFG have done things.

None of which is any reflection on the quality or the presentation of those ideas either. Nor does it preclude people from doing whatever they like.

All I hear is the wailing of fanboys and the arrogant tone of some dunce who thinks that if people don't play rpg's the way he does they deserve to be mocked and scorned. Here's a fucking protip for you: not everyone that buys a published rpg wants to do some or even all the work themselves. That, AGAIN, is why they are paying for that product. It's not free, it's published and paid for. Insulting me because I don't really want to make up my own stats for things as quintessentially 40k as orks, eldar and chaos space marines (as opposed to the chaos stuff you face in DH, chaos of the non-military kind), is just arrogant and obnoxious. It doesn't mean that I couldn't or that I (assuming it is as easy as you say, I don't know and I'm not going to take your word for it since you resort to childish abuse so easily it destroys all credibility) won't. I just shouldn't have to. Three things: Orks, Eldar and CHaos Space Marines. I can forego Dark Eldar and Necrons for now, even the Tau can be prioritised lower. But to say there are no orks in the Jericho Reach - the setting for a game about the Ordos Xenos can't make much sense!

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452717I shouldn't have to design my own rules, stats and whatever for core 40k antagonists in a 40k game.

Hm. I see you are new to role playing games. Welcome! You can pick up your copy of D&D basic when you exit the thread. :D

Oh I read it, you illiterate turd.  It's you that needs to read - or should I say comprehend?  It's not that you don't have an argument, it's just that it's stupid and has no merit.  Come to terms with that.  We all have our days.

Honestly though, theres something else I want to address.

Make ONE fucking post.  Posting three times to say what you could have done with one post (they are all irrelevant anyway) is how you artificially inflate your post count.

I know we don't ban people here - multiposting like that is bad form, bad manners and it reflects how pea brained you really are.  Learn to use the forum - there's an edit button, you pretentious and ill informed little prick.

Also - this hobby is expensive.  If it's not to your tastes, go fucking complain about it somewhere else.  OR do what a real person would do - make more money.

Quote from: Blackhand;452719Also - this hobby is expensive.  If it's not to your tastes, go fucking complain about it somewhere else.  OR do what a real person would do - make more money.

Congratulations on actually lowering the tone of an overt troll thread.

Quote from: Benoist;452718Hm. I see you are new to role playing games. Welcome! You can pick up your copy of D&D basic when you exit the thread. :D

I dunno, given what he's said it sounds like he'd be better of with 4e. ;)

Quote from: Cole;452720Congratulations on actually lowering the tone of an overt troll thread.

Thanks.

I had to try really really hard.

Quote from: Benoist;452718Hm. I see you are new to role playing games. Welcome! You can pick up your copy of D&D basic when you exit the thread. :D

What the hell is that supposed to mean? I am quite capable of making stuff up that is not the fucking point. But it requires that I have enough information on the factions themselves, which I personally don't have. So either I buy the codcies, which I don't want to do, to get the full background in order to develop them properly, or I just fudge it, which I don't want to do. Why should I have to? Why aren't FFG doing this? Instead of pouring endless streams of unsolicited and unwarranted fucking abuse why not answer that question?

Quote from: Blackhand;452719Oh I read it, you illiterate turd.  It's you that needs to read - or should I say comprehend?  It's not that you don't have an argument, it's just that it's stupid and has no merit.  Come to terms with that.  We all have our days.

Oh go die of cancer you bleeding fuckign cunt. I've had enough of the fucking abuse on this thread as it is. I have HAD FUCKING ENOUGH!

Quote from: J Arcane;452721I dunno, given what he's said it sounds like he'd be better of with 4e. ;)

Actually I think what he's looking for is sold by Sony or Microsoft.

PS3's and Xbox's are going pretty cheap these days.  Or maybe a Wii...

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452726Oh go die of cancer you bleeding fuckign cunt. I've had enough of the fucking abuse on this thread as it is. I have HAD FUCKING ENOUGH!

Oh pipe down, shithead.  You've been screaming at everyone on this board for as long as I remember.  Take your well deserved licks like a man and shut the fuck up.

At this point the only reason anyone's talking to you is because it's amusing to watch you react like an 8 year old with a God complex every time.

Quote from: Blackhand;452724Thanks.

I had to try really really hard.

Yeah? Try harder you wanker. Or go fucking die of aids.

Quote from: J Arcane;452729Oh pipe down, shithead.  You've been screaming at everyone on this board for as long as I remember.  Take your well deserved licks like a man and shut the fuck up.

At this point the only reason anyone's talking to you is because it's amusing to watch you react like an 8 year old with a God complex every time.

I have posted this thread as a valid discussion because it's a valid opinion. And yet, AGAIN, pricks like you steamroll in doing exactly what you accuse other people of. Go fucking kill yourself, I'm sick of this constant fucking abuse. Don't even try and justify it; you decided to troll this thread and you resorted to cheap abuse. If you dont' fucking like it then don't dish it out you prick.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452732I have posted this thread as a valid discussion because it's a valid opinion. And yet, AGAIN, pricks like you steamroll in doing exactly what you accuse other people of. Go fucking kill yourself, I'm sick of this constant fucking abuse. Don't even try and justify it; you decided to troll this thread and you resorted to cheap abuse. If you dont' fucking like it then don't dish it out you prick.

I've got no problems here, I'm not a spineless pussy.

I think you might find it an eye-opener though to go back and read any threads where I've discussed the Warhammer games.  

Maybe you'd realize that the problem here hasn't been your point, it's been your crippling lack of intellect, willful ignorance, and deliberate fabrications in service of that point.

That's what Spike was trying to get across to you, but you're too fucking self-important to realize it.  You even attacked him for it, like the fucking child you are, just for not being anything but a glowing endorsement of this massive troll of a thread.

Quote from: J Arcane;452734I've got no problems here, I'm not a spineless pussy.

I think you might find it an eye-opener though to go back and read any threads where I've discussed the Warhammer games.  

Maybe you'd realize that the problem here hasn't been your point, it's been your crippling lack of intellect, willful ignorance, and deliberate fabrications in service of that point.

That's what Spike was trying to get across to you, but you're too fucking self-important to realize it.  You even attacked him for it, like the fucking child you are, just for not being anything but a glowing endorsement of this massive troll of a thread.

Show exactly where I have been wilfully ignorant.
Show exactly where and what I have deliberately fabricated.
Back up your bullshit.

I think you are very much a spineless pussy, all you've done this entire thread is dleiberately troll just to push my buttons. Well congratulations, you got a response. That's big of you. What exactly have you contributed? All you've done is post the kind of flamebait troll crap you have the nerve to accuse me of. There is nothing remotely wrong with questioning the way this game was designed or asking if it's balanced and no one has put a gun to your head compelling you to join in with your bullshit. Yet here you are blabbering the most arrogant condescending crap i've seen in a long while.

I've expressed these opinions before, so what? You don't like it, then don't fucking read it. The problem here isn't a 'crippling lack of intellect' or any other of your glib insults, that you continue to throw out while complaining, ironically, about hypocrisy. The problem is that fanboy childishness that has made it perfectly acceptable to victimise me for posting my opinion. To whit: 'youre stupid', 'youre a pathetic lazy idiot', 'youre a pathetic baby', 'you shithead', 'youre this that and the other'. That's taking the higher ground is it? Like fuck is it. The last 5 pages or so of this thread have been dominated by this and you still have the fucking gall to perpetuate this behaviour while trying to make it sound as if I'm at fault for not understanding what someone else was trying to say when that, too, was all they were doing. Get to fuck you arrogent prick!

The only self important person here is you; you're patronising, arrogant, abusive and totally condescending.

The arrogance in this thread is disgusting.

I'm gonna humor you just this once.

I've tried in the past to explain this to you.  You seem to have the idea, so lets go over these points.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452725What the hell is that supposed to mean? I am quite capable of making stuff up that is not the fucking point.

No, that's exactly the point. There really isn't a lot of definitive information on all these and GW wants it that way.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452725But it requires that I have enough information on the factions themselves, which I personally don't have. So either I buy the codcies, which I don't want to do, to get the full background in order to develop them properly, or I just fudge it, which I don't want to do.

These are your options.  You don't want to do either one.  Play another game.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452725Why should I have to? Why aren't FFG doing this? Instead of pouring endless streams of unsolicited and unwarranted fucking abuse why not answer that question?

GW has the last word on all that, man.  They control their IP hard, and how it's presented.  Ask anyone, they'll tell you they work no other way.  

Now all these things have been repeatedly stated by the honored members of this forum, and I have stated them once more.

You have been presented options, and continually rail against them because you expect the game to be something it's not.  

It's a unique setting that cannot be approached conventionally.

For twenty years we have been hoping someone could get something like this developed, but I understood why there was never an official RPG.  When I heard this is how they would be creating the line (focused rulebooks and support products) I cheered...they fucking got it right!  At last, there would be an official RPG product for us - the 40k'rs!!

If you stopped to think about it, the setting really is too big to do a D&D style game with.  To preserve the mystery, gothic oppressiveness and medieval mystique of the universe it has to be displayed as humanocentric.  Aliens are aliens...even if you play them in the wargame, you never really feel like they are your friends.  Thus, it's only common sense there are no (few) aliens.  Duh.

Why were people surprised?

Also there are power levels (and influence levels) that are too wildly varying to facilitate roleplay, not to mention...well, lets just say, if you tried to shove Space Marines in with Guard or Adepts, you'd be fucking stupid.  Remember no one tried to do this for twenty years.

So I guess what I'm trying to tell you is the target audience for 40krpg (and to a lesser extent, WFRP itself) is NOT conventional RPG gamers, but the fans of the miniature game.  

It's not your fault you don't have all the material.  GW won't let FFG give it to you, so maybe you should really be bitching about them.

Or maybe you should try Rifts.

This thread was a troll from the beginning. I've done no more to lower the tone of it's intent than was originally meant by its very title.  

As for being a "fanboy", well, hence the reference to my previous posting record on the topic.  If you'd actually paid attention to anything I've said about the games before you'd realize I've not been uncritical of the series' coverage myself.

But once again, you've simply assumed things about my motives and my personal opinions, because it is easier than admitting you've gone about making your point with all the delicacy of a shark with chainsaws for hands.  

And I do realize that in joining Pseudo's joyous exercise of epithetical skill, it has allowed you to instead play the injured martyr, as if you are any kind of saint when it comes to your comport on this board.

But I'm willing to take that as a loss, if only because it's so entertaining watching you perpetually jam your head up your own ass.

Quote from: Spike;452658Interesting observation but irrelevant.  People can play narrative and thematic space elves as easily as they can play narrative and thematic superhuman warrior monks with two hearts and big fucking guns.

Yeah, but FFG's not gonna give you a gigantic sandbox/toolkit/simulation style game where they detail every type of character you could possibly have.  That's not what they do.

You'll get rules for playing narrative and thematic space elves when they come up with a Rogue Trader adventure that includes one as an NPC and then when the axe doesn't come down, they'll include a section in a RT supplement to toss them in.

Whee!

If your problem is that you don't know anything about 40K, then you should operate the Googlenets, bro.

Protip: The first page of a search for almost any term used in 40K will take you to "Lexicanum", the exhaustive 40K wiki that has material from all five editions of the game compiled together for free.

Bonus Protip: Chaos Space Marines are statted up in the back of DW. Eldar are statted up at various points in the line, including in Creatures Anathema. Your complaints are just growing more ridiculous as they go on.

Quote

Quote from: Blackhand;452741I'm gonna humor you just this once.

I've tried in the past to explain this to you.  You seem to have the idea, so lets go over these points.

'in the past'?
in your head more like.
Do you think you make your point by patronising and insulting me then? Are you one of these fuckwits that thinks 'if i just insult this guy all the time, people will agree with me that he's wrong'?

QuoteNo, that's exactly the point. There really isn't a lot of definitive information on all these and GW wants it that way.

It's exactly NOT the point, as i have said multiple times. You can choose to believe otherwise, that's your problem. I would advise you not make the mistake that others have o fputting words in my mouth.

You don't know what GW wants or doesn't want. You can't make that comment. The fact is that there is information on all these things: the codexes for the wargame provide at least a solid basis to work with. This is a licensed game and as such it's setting is already established.

FFG chose to proviude the most spartan details for enemies any GM could hope to work with. Why?

QuoteThese are your options.  You don't want to do either one.  Play another game.

Oh do grow up.

I'm well aware of what the reality is. Doesn't stop me from questioning their judgement which is exactly what I've done. It's called criticism.

QuoteGW has the last word on all that, man.  They control their IP hard, and how it's presented.  Ask anyone, they'll tell you they work no other way.  

How is this relevant? Obviously GW protect their ip, 'man'. What is your point?

QuoteNow all these things have been repeatedly stated by the honored members of this forum, and I have stated them once more.

You've stated nothing. YOu've jsut been an abusive dickhead. Too much noise. Just repeating yourself doesn't decrease the noise coming from your abusive crap. Im well aware what my options are; dpesn't make the criticism any less valid or the discussion any less valid. If you don't agree then fine, take it elsehwere. If you want to be abusive, then fuck off. I don't need to read unwarranted shit like that.

Quote from: J Arcane;452742This thread was a troll from the beginning. I've done no more to lower the tone of it's intent than was originally meant by its very title.  

blah blah blah, what a tired excuse for trolling that is. Go away you tireed little troll. The fuck kind of excuse is 'well i knew you were trolling, so it's ok for me to behave in exactly the same way, ho ho ho!'

Twat.

Quote from: J Arcane;452742And I do realize that in joining Pseudo's joyous exercise of epithetical skill, it has allowed you to instead play the injured martyr, as if you are any kind of saint when it comes to your comport on this board.

I sing the fuckwad electric.

Quote

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452744Whee!

If your problem is that you don't know anything about 40K, then you should operate the Googlenets, bro.

That isn't what I said, as you well know (though obviously not, as your comments deonstrate you base your abusive rubbish on jumping from one extreme of the argument to the other). I didn't say i knew nothing; I said that I didn't know the full detail. I don't know all the ins and outs of Eldar culture: all the dfiferent aspects and what have you.

And again you miss the fucking point.

QuoteProtip: The first page of a search for almost any term used in 40K will take you to "Lexicanum", the exhaustive 40K wiki that has material from all five editions of the game compiled together for free.

'Protip': people that say 'protip...' are usually pretentious idiots.

I'm well aware there are websites devoted to printing all this information, I'm also well aware that FFG should be doing this and not expecting their players to have to do it, which is the fucking point you keep missing. I want to be desiging adventures and using the pritned book to help me. Not having to fish out information across the internet and making stuff up to fill in the blanks left by FFG. Nor does it make sense, AGAIN, to expect people to spend full price on books for a fraction of their content.

Maybe you'll next actually ANSWER these points, not ignore them to continue ranting about how lazy people are if they, as roleplayers, don't want to DIY.

QuoteBonus Protip: Chaos Space Marines are statted up in the back of DW. Eldar are statted up at various points in the line, including in Creatures Anathema. Your complaints are just growing more ridiculous as they go on.

Creatures Anathema, as I JUST SAID, is £30 and is intended for DH, as such the few pages of info that might be useful doesn't justify the expense.

Eldar are in CA and in one of the RT adventure books (possibly the GM kit). What's ridiculous is having to buy a RT adventure book for DW - for the same reason (only even more so). That's a perfectly fucking reasonable complaint just as 'make more money' is insulting and clumsy.

And i'm well aware what's in the DW antagonist section; i've mentioned it myself several times. But what's covered is the most sparse amount of info. Chaos Space Marines are covered in as much as you get one generic 'chaos space marine' entry. That's it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;452743Yeah, but FFG's not gonna give you a gigantic sandbox/toolkit/simulation style game where they detail every type of character you could possibly have.  That's not what they do.

And it's not what was requested. No one has asked FFG to detail EVERY SINGLE THING in the 40k universe. No one. Not here. Not ever. This kind of hyperbole is just pointless.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452746'in the past'?
in your head more like.
*snip*
You've stated nothing. YOu've jsut been an abusive dickhead. Too much noise. Just repeating yourself doesn't decrease the noise coming from your abusive crap. Im well aware what my options are; dpesn't make the criticism any less valid or the discussion any less valid. If you don't agree then fine, take it elsehwere. If you want to be abusive, then fuck off. I don't need to read unwarranted shit like that.

All right, for a second I actually felt bad for how you were getting hammered.  Now you can fuck your mother.

In the past, as in other threads, you brainless reject.  I'm sure someone remembers, even if you don't.  I don't really give a fuck.

Yeah, I'm repeating myself.  I'll stop, because it's quite obvious how fucking hopelessly lost you are.

I still find it bizarre that you insist on buying DW-only branded material, despite all three games being compatible with one another and using the same mechanics for everything except psychic powers (which remain compatible) to the point that they're all treated as the same game by the player community.

Nor are the power scales so massively different that creatures from one game can't be used in another, especially with the existence of horde rules and the existence of equipment lists. You are quite literally ignorant of what you are talking about when you talk about "balance" and "optimisation" and all that in reference to the antagonists. DH and RT have plenty of antagonists that serve perfectly well in DW.

Also, the constant nonsense about "only a small part of the material" being relevant is getting tiresome, since as I've said several times now, it's untrue.

Here, here's a real example from someone who plays all three games (your humble interlocutor) about using material from one book in another:

In my current Deathwatch game, the PCs are a critical component of Operation Nidhoggr, an attempt to capture Valentine Illst, an arch-heretic of unknown origin.

Illst has been built as a DH Ascension-level character (with a few twists). The first step in capturing him is hunting down his old associate Titus Hyle, a Chaos sorcerer dedicated to Nurgle who is built as an Ascension-level character with spells from Disciples of the Dark Gods andRadical's Handbook, and a few traits from the DW corebook.

Titus Hyle's forces include some daemonhosts (DH corebook), some hordes of corrupted Imperial Guardsmen (DW corebook), a shipment of Chimeras (Rites of Battle), Twist Hulk bodyguards (Creatures Anathema), some CSMs (DW corebook), and some commanders / high level cultists armed with archaeotech / xeno weaponry Illst has given him (Imperial Guard Field Officers from the DW corebook with Xenarch Death Arcs from DH's Radical Handbook). Hyle had a Warhound Titan as well (Rites of Battle), but it was blown up last session.

The single greatest threat the PCs have faced so far was not the Titan, but Hayne Oberstunn, one of the DW Field Officers, and his Xenarch Death Arc, which dealt 42 damage in a single round to the Ultramarine Tactical Marine (who had to burn a fate point to avoid being vaporised). The two most useful books, beyond the DW corebook, for my campaign have been Ascension for Dark Heresy, and Disciples of the Dark Gods, for the sorcery, cult ideas and stats for daemons, all of whom will feature in further installments of the campaign.

So basically, cross-compatibility between lines is very high, and claims that you'll only use a "small portion" or whatever of each book is basically dependent on you, not the books.

Also, those who fail to appreciate the sardonic flourish of "Protip" are the bearers of shriveled and enfeebled souls.

What I find amusing about all of this, well the most amusing.  Is that he's wasting his time bitching about what's not going to be to people that are playing - and enjoying - a game that is.  There are lost causes and then there are just well this an utterly futile waste of time.   You want a game, go complain to the people that aren't making the game.   Which is to say go bitch about what's not going to be on the FFG forum, where your complaints are at least in the right ball park.

Seriously fuck, this thread went from a relevant question to a cluster fuck.

The real answer is that DW comes with a dozen enemies from a few factions.  There are more books out covering various other areas of the game from DH and RT and those enemies work in DW just fine.  The only difference is in DH you fight 1, in DW you fight a horde.  Not all the Xeno races are out yet and some of them may never be.  If you want Orcs and Orcs don't exist yet then just take any other stat block of a level you think equates an Orc.  Then using your imagination bingo - you've got an Orc.

Seriously this is rudimentary GM'ing 101.  If you can't grasp that bit and I don't give a rats ass about the 'I want, I want, I want' then you don't have a basis for any further bitching.  We all have a wish list for any game we play of what we'd like to have that isn't already there.  DW is no different.  Your wish list may very.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452715I have made exactly that point. Clearly you are another of these idiots that doesn't fucking read the fucking thread and instead goes off half cocked shouting abuse. I'm sick of being insulted by people like you; learn to FUCKING READ!

Learn to fucking read. I said that you were making an interesting a valid point, but are such a complete fucking idiot that having you as a standard bearer for that point makes any real conversation...about said point... pointless.

But, you know, its just to much to ask of you to actually read and understand one. simple. post.  I mean... next I'll be asking you to read an entire thread!

Horrors!

Quote from: Ramrod;452700The fact that the 40k rpgs are geared towards emulating the fiction and novels is relevant, since 90% of that fiction focuses on the Imperium and the people who live in it. GW has never really cared about novels that are not just about "Imperials fighting enemy X", told from the Imperials perspective. The Eldar, beloved as they are, have gotten like 5 books during their entire existence and only one of those (the one by Thorpe) is worth anything.

Sadly, the truth is that GW really, really, really wants to make the Imperium and the Space Marines the focus of 40k, and it's obvious that FFG were told to do just that - games where you play as an Imperial agent/soldier/magnificent bastard.

Oh sure.  There is a good reason for that, most people have a hard time really getting into 'the other'. The more human the elves are the less important it is that they are elves. In movies and novels this is pretty fucking important.

In a game, however... whether it be tactical or Role-Playing, this is less important.  Most players have no problem sympathizing with their characters or cheering for their army, regardless of how inhuman or inhumane they might be.  Games are, by definition, more sandboxy, more free form than any book, even the most railroady adventure run by the most dickishly strict GM is still more free than even the coolest 'chose your adventure' book.

Thus, pointing out how novels are entirely humanocentric is missing the point that FFG isn't selling a novel... its selling a game.

Its the economics of the industry that shape the constraints. FFG, and for that matter GW, both want to grow the number of people willing to buy their products. Novels that are humanocentric will sell far more copies than novels about freakishly inhuman space elves, which would in turn massively outsell novels from the point of view of hive-mind, world devouring bugs. A wargame, however, can not only sell an army of hive-mind world devouring bugs, but sell more of them than some of the humanocentric armies.

In RPGs the dynamic changes again. World Devouring bugs CAN be sold, but its generally not worth it. Space Elves, however, have the chance to pick up all sorts of players who otherwise don't care about wargames, and thus 40k, but who would leap at the chance to play an exotic, spechul, space elf with a big fuuken gun... and presto! the market for the game expands.

Me? I don't care about the space elves, but one of my players won't touch the game unless she can play one, which is why I mention them specifically.

The point being, since I've wandered: Yes, 40k should be presented as humanocentric, in novels and even in the game, since the customers are ultimately human, and humans like stuff that's just like them. But to ignore the significant percentage of gamers and 40k fans who really like the other, freakshow, races even above and beyond humans is poor marketing and to select races that are either by canon intolerable or have extremely marginal, 40k fan only, fangroups over a race with broad cross over appeal and a built in fanbase that is actually LARGER than the original property seems to be cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.   Quite possibly one of the honchos is one of those gamers who hate seeing elves everywhere (lord, do I understand!), but allowing that personal beef to dominate the development of an existing property is like cutting his own nose off to spite his face.

Its his face to spite, but that doesn't mean I won't comment on it.

Ok, but really...is the subgroup of the market that wants the freakish races to be supported going to be bigger than the portion of the target audience that wants it to be true to 40k, not a space opera or Rifts clone?

I don't think so.  The only people I have heard with these sorts of issues are RPG'rs who are not wargamers.  And every single one of them is a member on this specific board.  

You might not want to hear this, but I'm pretty familiar with GW's practices and I'm pretty sure they view that demographic as tangential.  After all, do you really want to alienate the majority of your target audience (who think you're doing a smashing job) to please a minority who thinks you should be doing it different?

That, sir...is cutting off the nose to spite the face.

GW will not let FFG do things they don't want done.

So, you think having orks running around as Sanctioned Xenos on human worlds... currently encouraged in Rogue Trader... is more in keeping with the fans and the canon as it currently stands than having an Eldar doing the same thing?

I mean, I know I haven't exactly bought assloads of codexes and shit since 5th edition 40k came out, but obviously something big changed along the way.  I mean... was in the novels or something, 'cause I read those too, but lately I've been all in the Horus Heresy shit and there ain't no orks there.


Seriously: You are not trying to claim that Eldar have been deliberately marginalized to keep the 40k fans from crying 'that ain't canon!' are you?

I mean seriously: Kroot are okay and they fucking eat people. Haven't seen a poncy elf do THAT lately.  





Also: I think the 'We gotta keep it Imperium based' argument goes out the window with the announced development of the Chaos Marine core book.  Just sayin'.

In a word...no.

Quote from: Spike;452777So, you think having orks running around as Sanctioned Xenos on human worlds... currently encouraged in Rogue Trader... is more in keeping with the fans and the canon as it currently stands than having an Eldar doing the same thing?

You're thinking in broad strokes.  The "sanctioning" actually has precedent, from almost a decade ago.  Kal Jericho's mother was an Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos and had a pet kroot.  Other Inquisitors have had different relationships with xenos, but that's the most intimate I can think of.

The inclusion of orks and kroot is the very special exception that has been included in the game for the sake of completeness that everyone is saying is missing.

Seems in line to me.

Quote from: Spike;452777I mean, I know I haven't exactly bought assloads of codexes and shit since 5th edition 40k came out, but obviously something big changed along the way.  I mean... was in the novels or something, 'cause I read those too, but lately I've been all in the Horus Heresy shit and there ain't no orks there.

I don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Quote from: Spike;452777Seriously: You are not trying to claim that Eldar have been deliberately marginalized to keep the 40k fans from crying 'that ain't canon!' are you?

I mean seriously: Kroot are okay and they fucking eat people. Haven't seen a poncy elf do THAT lately.

Seriously: Eldar don't fucking hang out with humans much.  Kroot, tau... they actually do (in a limited fashion), or do you know what the term gue'vesa means?

Humans would treat xenos like Nazis treated Jews.

Quote from: Spike;452777Also: I think the 'We gotta keep it Imperium based' argument goes out the window with the announced development of the Chaos Marine core book.  Just sayin'.

That's entirely incorrect.  If you think that Black Crusade is NOT about the Imperium and humanocentric, you would be wrong.

I'm semi-cool with space elves, in that I don't like 'em and wouldn't use 'em in my games as friendly NPCs and would never personally play one, but it doesn't chafe my dick if people want them either (I put them in as a playable option in my ongoing conversion of 40K to Stars Without Numbers at Silverlion's request). Personally, I prefer the more inhuman aliens of the universe - Tyranids, Necrons, etc.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452744Whee!

Protip: The first page of a search for almost any term used in 40K will take you to "Lexicanum", the exhaustive 40K wiki that has material from all five editions of the game compiled together for free.

This thread was good for something! Thanks for that link!

Quote from: Blackhand;452751All right, for a second I actually felt bad for how you were getting hammered.  

Of course you didn't. At least have the integrity to be honest and consistent.

Quote from: Spike;452762Learn to fucking read. I said that you were making an interesting a valid point, but are such a complete fucking idiot that having you as a standard bearer for that point makes any real conversation...about said point... pointless.

But, you know, its just to much to ask of you to actually read and understand one. simple. post.  I mean... next I'll be asking you to read an entire thread!

Horrors!

No, this is what you said:

Quote from: Spike;452650I think a perfectly valid point could be made about the weird scattershot presentation of various elements of the 40k universe in the FFG games.

However, Ghost Whistler is not making that point.

And that's not including the unprovoked abuse that comprises the rest of the post.

What is this I don't even...

Quote

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452753I still find it bizarre that you insist on buying DW-only branded material,

Still. Not. Listening.

I havent insisted anything of the kind. Not wanting to buy other sourcebooks for the other games isn't because of some elitist 'DW only please' nonsense you imply. It's because it's expensive to buy these books and prioritising them over stuff like RoB is not at all economically viable.

QuoteYou are quite literally ignorant of what you are talking about when you talk about "balance" and "optimisation" and all that in reference to the antagonists. DH and RT have plenty of antagonists that serve perfectly well in DW.

Of course I'm ignorant of these things, I havent played the game! Most people that don't own the rules/haven't read or played them/ havent' read the other books mentioned are going to be ignorant of them! You are asking me to believe what you say, and given how quickly you decided to chuck your toys out the pram when you couldn't grasp (and still can't, despite me explaining it many many times) the point I was making.

QuoteAlso, the constant nonsense about "only a small part of the material" being relevant is getting tiresome, since as I've said several times now, it's untrue.

Of course it's not untrue. CA contain a lot material that isn't of any interest to me: the only stuff that's useful is the xeno chapter. The rest of the stuff is not what I'm after.

QuoteHere, here's a real example from someone who plays all three games (your humble interlocutor) about using material from one book in another:

Fuck me, it's like educating pork.

I don't own all three games. I don't have £80 to spare on DH or RT nor do i want to have to heft around three corebooks to run DW (and that won't include supplements I do want). It's also not what I woudl call efficient.
If my humble interlocutor wishes to do this, that's entirely his right to do so. I haven't criticised him for it either, yet you feel quite at liberty to be massively rude and disrespectful to me in turn.

QuoteIllst has been built as a DH Ascension-level character (with a few twists). The first step in capturing him is hunting down his old associate Titus Hyle, a Chaos sorcerer dedicated to Nurgle who is built as an Ascension-level character with spells from Disciples of the Dark Gods andRadical's Handbook, and a few traits from the DW corebook.

So now we also have Ascension, £40, Disciples £35 (iirc) and Radicals (same).
So that's, in total and not including DW, almost £200 to run the game in the way you clearly endorse. And that's all for info to build a couple of characters. That to you is reasonable and proportionate, yes?

QuoteTitus Hyle's forces include some daemonhosts (DH corebook), some hordes of corrupted Imperial Guardsmen (DW corebook), a shipment of Chimeras (Rites of Battle), Twist Hulk bodyguards (Creatures Anathema), some CSMs (DW corebook), and some commanders / high level cultists armed with archaeotech / xeno weaponry Illst has given him (Imperial Guard Field Officers from the DW corebook with Xenarch Death Arcs from DH's Radical Handbook). Hyle had a Warhound Titan as well (Rites of Battle), but it was blown up last session.

Now we have Rites of Battle, which is for DW and so will be on balance more useful as a purchase, which is also £35 and CA which is about £30.

So in total, to play DW this way would set me back in total roughly £300 to have all the options, including the core book, as provided by FFG.

And that's not considering the practicalities of lugging around all this stuff to and from games, cross referncing all these books to do all this either. It's not exactly efficient is it!

You're nuts, pal. No wonder you can't see reason. You're away with the fucking faeiries.

And that's after I made it perfectly clear that, if money was no object, I'd buy all these books and that if someone offered me them i'd bite their hand off to accept.

Is there any point in you even responding? YOu clearly don't read what I write.

QuoteSo basically, cross-compatibility between lines is very high, and claims that you'll only use a "small portion" or whatever of each book is basically dependent on you, not the books.

Well to a relatively small degree, yes. But not overall: ascension is for high level DH characters. As a whole it won't be as useful as RoB would be and so it's not economically viable. Even if it were, it's still a lot of money - a lot more money than the corebook.

Pathetic.

The major point is that you're throwing around all this nonsense while simultaneously admitting you don't have any of the material and have never played that game.

It's pretty stupid.  It IS like trying to educate pork.

So quit trying to "educate" us, you need some schooling yourself.

In fact, fuck you again for saying that.

Quote from: Blackhand;452788You're thinking in broad strokes.  The "sanctioning" actually has precedent, from almost a decade ago.  Kal Jericho's mother was an Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos and had a pet kroot.  Other Inquisitors have had different relationships with xenos, but that's the most intimate I can think of.

The inclusion of orks and kroot is the very special exception that has been included in the game for the sake of completeness that everyone is saying is missing.

Seems in line to me.

I don't have a problem with sanctioning. I have a point about the race choices presented by FFG.  Last I checked, Orks could be seriously considered an infectious pestilence, due to all that spore shedding and whatnot, creating new, psychopathically violent, unsanctioned orks everywhere they went.   And the Imperium KNOWS this about orks (whether they are right or not is irrelevant), so why would they EVER sanction one to walk around on Imperium worlds, no matter how cool a dude he was?  He's a fucking typhoid mary!

Of course, Orks are very popular. As in 'Waagh' shouts are far more common and enthusiastic at tournements than, say 'Blood for the Blood God' or "For the Emperor" or any of a dozen other battlecries.  Kroot have their fans. Hell, I like Kroot.  But outside of a fairly marginal fanbase that is ALREADY built into the fanbase of 40k, they got no real crossover appeal.   Fucking pansy ass space elves, however, do. And they have a history, checked as it is, of working with the imperium, from Inquisitors heading to the Black Library, to actual, if infrequent negotiations and temporary alliances between the Imperium and Eldar.

I mean, if I were selecting races to be included in the game for personal reasons, I would have picked the Tau, personally. But from a business standpoint? Fucking space elves all day every day.

QuoteI don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

I was responding to your apparent attitude that you know much more about 40k than I do, or rather anyone you disagree with. It was snark, it remains snark, but also, I serious have given up on the table top rules until GW gets its head out of its ass and stops treating the customers/fans like raw meat. So its also an admission that if a major canon change has swept through the fifth edition codexes... like fucking space elves suddenly worshipping papa nurgle and Orks being sadly misunderstood... choppas aren't meant as weapons, they're really for knitting and the Orks really just want some good yarn... then I probably missed it.

QuoteSeriously: Eldar don't fucking hang out with humans much.  Kroot, tau... they actually do (in a limited fashion), or do you know what the term gue'vesa means?

But Tau aren't included, so gue'vesa means jack and shit for this discussion. Of course, that means that Tau would be MORE unwelcome in the Imperium than fucking space elves, since fucking space elves don't have a program of proseltyzation going on, now do they?

Also, you are demonstrably wrong about fucking space elves. They have an entire caste/path of exiles that leave eldar space and just do shit, occasionally returning to fight as Rangers... but otherwise, canonically, doing shit like... hanging with Rogue Traders as mercenaries, infiltrating human space to keep an eye on the monkeys... I mean mon'kieghs, telling Inquisitors that bad shit is coming down so the stupid monkeys put their big ships in teh way first.

QuoteHumans would treat xenos like Nazis treated Jews.

And? We are talking about the choice of which aliens got the sanction. There isn't a debate that sanctioning occurs and why a fancy term like sanctioning is necessary.

QuoteThat's entirely incorrect.  If you think that Black Crusade is NOT about the Imperium and humanocentric, you would be wrong.

Humanocentic, yes, which is why I didn't claim it wasn't that. However, its as much about the Imperium as Nazi Germany was about Poland.   Seriously, being the enemy of something is not exactly the same as being about something.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452796No, this is what you said:



And that's not including the unprovoked abuse that comprises the rest of the post.

I didn't say you didn't HAVE a point, I said you weren't MAKING a point.

If you need me to explain the difference I'm afraid I'll have to outsouce that. I'm not qualified to teach small children, after all.

Also: None of the abuse heaped on you, by anyone in this thread is unprovoked.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452726Oh go die of cancer you bleeding fuckign cunt. I've had enough of the fucking abuse on this thread as it is. I have HAD FUCKING ENOUGH!

Perhaps when you stop foaming at the mouth, people will stop treating you like a rabid dog.

Seanchai

Quote from: Blackhand;452829Pathetic.

The major point is that you're throwing around all this nonsense while simultaneously admitting you don't have any of the material and have never played that game.

It's pretty stupid.  It IS like trying to educate pork.

So quit trying to "educate" us,

Then grow up.

Of course I didn't have the game when i started this thread, that's abundantly clear to anyone with a brain in their head. Why else would I ask the question if i had the game and was playing it? Wakey wakey son!

Quote from: Seanchai;452852Perhaps when you stop foaming at the mouth, people will stop treating you like a rabid dog.

Seanchai

Your summary of events is at odds with simple cause and effect.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452732...I'm sick of this constant fucking abuse.

[points to the door]

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452732If you dont' fucking like it then don't dish it out you prick.

This one had me blinking for a bit. It created a bit of loop in me brain I had to control alt break to get out of.

Seanchai

Quote from: Spike;452849I didn't say you didn't HAVE a point, I said you weren't MAKING a point.

If you need me to explain the difference I'm afraid I'll have to outsouce that. I'm not qualified to teach small children, after all.

Also: None of the abuse heaped on you, by anyone in this thread is unprovoked.

Oh really? Then link to a single post that I made that provoked such abuse. Show me even one instance of the kind of rubbish you are talking that justifies being sworn at, called stupid, called a baby, an idiot, lazy, shithead, etc. I've got to read this!
And your pathetic attempt at revising your own posting history is as ridiculous as saying that I'm not making a point while simultanously agreeing that I have a point. I'm not really itnerested in unravelling your bizarre train of thought when it's perfectly clear you've been caught out. At least have the honesty to own up to what you said and that you've tripped over your own bullshit.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452854Your summary of events is at odds with simple cause and effect.

If you weren't one of the kids here who goes from zero to abusive in about six second flat, you might have a point. But the fact is, foaming at the mouth is your status quo. Pointing at others, claiming they made you this way, is pointless when the casual reader can see you're like this time and time and time and time again.

So, yes, perhaps when you stop foaming at the mouth, people will stop treating you like a rabid dog.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;452855[points to the door]



This one had me blinking for a bit. It created a bit of loop in me brain I had to control alt break to get out of.

Seanchai

how very tedious.

let me explain it to you, even though its abundantly clear you understand entirely and taht entering this thread, at this point, is very obviously trolling: i'm perfectly fucking within my rights to call someone a prick after defending my position perfectly politely, consistently and cogently through about 5 pages of rampant abuse.

If you have a problem with that, I suggest when you next visit a shop or perhaps a gaming store that you shout and swear at the person working behind the till if he happens to express an opinion you dont agree with concerning a game you like. Then see how far it gets you. by all means argue with the guy, after you pick your teeth off the floor, about doors and morals.

Quote from: Seanchai;452857If you weren't one of the kids here who goes from zero to abusive in about six second flat, you might have a point. But the fact is, foaming at the mouth is your status quo. Pointing at others, claiming they made you this way, is pointless when the casual reader can see you're like this time and time and time and time again.

So, yes, perhaps when you stop foaming at the mouth, people will stop treating you like a rabid dog.

Seanchai

Again, cause and effect. Look it up, you pointless troll.

I didn't claim anyone made anyone anything. But if you are dumb enough to think people are going to relentlessly show you nothing but politeness and courtesy when all you can do is troll, shout abuse and chuck your toys out the pram because you can't and won't understand the point that's made repeatedly and explicitly then don't cry foul when you get a bloody nose.

Quick, someone hit him with the vial of acid, otherwise we'll never stop him!

Edit: I hit!  (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991499/)
Oh shit, not enough damage! (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991501/)

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452862Quick, someone hit him with the vial of acid, otherwise we'll never stop him!

Charming.

This is your best effort is it? Given up missing the point, now we move on to this kind of crap. You need to get a life.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452863Charming.

This is your best effort is it? Given up missing the point, now we move on to this kind of crap. You need to get a life.

I can see it moving its lips, it might be troll mage! Quick, everyone, quick, before it casts Feeblemind!

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452860let me explain it to you, even though its abundantly clear you understand entirely and taht entering this thread, at this point, is very obviously trolling:

No, I'm entering the thread at this point because I heard the baby crying from the other room and decided I'd better see if he needed his diaper changed.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452860i'm perfectly fucking within my rights to call someone a prick after defending my position perfectly politely, consistently and cogently through about 5 pages of rampant abuse.

This thread has two page. You started out with a hyperbolic, suggestive title and then went on to sprinkle in such gems as "It's beyond absurd..."

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452860If you have a problem with that...

You're confused. I'm not the one with the problem. You are. You've gone on and on about how unfairly you're being treated, how you're being abused, etc.. I'm the one who suggested the solution to your problem: leave.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452861But if you are dumb enough to think people are going to relentlessly show you nothing but politeness and courtesy when all you can do is troll, shout abuse and chuck your toys out the pram because you can't and won't understand the point that's made repeatedly and explicitly then don't cry foul when you get a bloody nose.

So you DO understand why people are being abusive to you. I thought you did. So, again, perhaps when you stop foaming at the mouth, people will stop treating you like a rabid dog. Stop trolling, shouting abuse, and chucking your toys out of the pram and perhaps people's heckling won't bring you to the point of tears next thread...

Seanchai

Quote from: Spike;452848I don't have a problem with sanctioning. I have a point about the race choices presented by FFG.  Last I checked, Orks could be seriously considered an infectious pestilence, due to all that spore shedding and whatnot, creating new, psychopathically violent, unsanctioned orks everywhere they went.   And the Imperium KNOWS this about orks (whether they are right or not is irrelevant), so why would they EVER sanction one to walk around on Imperium worlds, no matter how cool a dude he was?  He's a fucking typhoid mary!

I actually agree.  I don't believe ANY xenos should be a playable character.

Quote from: Spike;452848Of course, Orks are very popular. As in 'Waagh' shouts are far more common and enthusiastic at tournements than, say 'Blood for the Blood God' or "For the Emperor" or any of a dozen other battlecries.  Kroot have their fans. Hell, I like Kroot.  But outside of a fairly marginal fanbase that is ALREADY built into the fanbase of 40k, they got no real crossover appeal.   Fucking pansy ass space elves, however, do. And they have a history, checked as it is, of working with the imperium, from Inquisitors heading to the Black Library, to actual, if infrequent negotiations and temporary alliances between the Imperium and Eldar.

Waaagh! is a group bellow that used by GW to create momentum at the tournaments and at Games Day.  It's not strictly indicative that those players are playing that army.

Quote from: Spike;452848I mean, if I were selecting races to be included in the game for personal reasons, I would have picked the Tau, personally. But from a business standpoint? Fucking space elves all day every day.

A series of "campaign settings" each detailing a specific point in the Imperium where these xenos interact with the Imperium might be nice.

Then we could all be happy.

Quote from: Spike;452848I was responding to your apparent attitude that you know much more about 40k than I do, or rather anyone you disagree with. It was snark, it remains snark, but also, I serious have given up on the table top rules until GW gets its head out of its ass and stops treating the customers/fans like raw meat. So its also an admission that if a major canon change has swept through the fifth edition codexes... like fucking space elves suddenly worshipping papa nurgle and Orks being sadly misunderstood... choppas aren't meant as weapons, they're really for knitting and the Orks really just want some good yarn... then I probably missed it.

Sorry you gave up on the rules.  Maybe you need a better wargames club?

Quote from: Spike;452848But Tau aren't included, so gue'vesa means jack and shit for this discussion. Of course, that means that Tau would be MORE unwelcome in the Imperium than fucking space elves, since fucking space elves don't have a program of proseltyzation going on, now do they?

Gue'vesa are not Tau.

Quote from: Spike;452848Also, you are demonstrably wrong about fucking space elves. They have an entire caste/path of exiles that leave eldar space and just do shit, occasionally returning to fight as Rangers... but otherwise, canonically, doing shit like... hanging with Rogue Traders as mercenaries, infiltrating human space to keep an eye on the monkeys... I mean mon'kieghs, telling Inquisitors that bad shit is coming down so the stupid monkeys put their big ships in teh way first.

Almost invariably, everything you gave as an example ends with one or both parties dead.

Quote from: Spike;452848And? We are talking about the choice of which aliens got the sanction. There isn't a debate that sanctioning occurs and why a fancy term like sanctioning is necessary.

Again, I agree.  I'd still rather have no aliens, which is really the only design choice I have a beef with.  Not which aliens are included (which to me is irrelevant) but that they were in the first place.

Quote from: Spike;452848Humanocentic, yes, which is why I didn't claim it wasn't that. However, its as much about the Imperium as Nazi Germany was about Poland.   Seriously, being the enemy of something is not exactly the same as being about something.

The entire point of a Black Crusade (and the Chaos Legions in general) is to bring about the destruction of the Imperium.  ALL OF SPACE is the Imperium.

They are in the Imperium, even if they control a small portion of that space.  Or they are invading an Imperial world.

It is very much about the Imperium, only it's the "bad guys" that hate it and are running around in it destroying it rather than the warriors that defend it.

Seanchai>
Dude, don't waste your time with Diplomacy rolls (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991513/), Trolls can't speak Common!

This feels like Tangency, with all the cool kids baiting one person they don't like.

Quote from: danbuter;452873This feels like Tangency, with all the cool kids baiting one person they don't like.

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't like him before all the cool kids hated him.

Quote from: danbuter;452873This feels like Tangency, with all the cool kids baiting one person they don't like.

Baiting?  The dude is flipping shit over...I don't even know what he's so upset about.  This is just the community self-moderating lunacy.

Quote from: danbuter;452873This feels like Tangency, with all the cool kids baiting one person they don't like.

A wandering monster appears!

Quote from: Peregrin;452877Baiting?  The dude is flipping shit over...I don't even know what he's so upset about.  This is just the community self-moderating lunacy.

You're lucky you have Skill Focus (Perform) (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991558/). All allies get +2 to their attacks!

The troll of the Whistling Ghost Caves continues to advance, emitting horrible, whinging screeches. A skulking Butters flits from shadow to shadow, waiting to pick off the weak. Peregrin's buff is still in operation until he decides to drop it.

Actions this round?

The way I see it, the OP has a list of choices.

1. Buy the other books, which he says he can't afford.
2. Make up the stuff he needs to use, which he doesn't want to do.
3. Not run Deathwatch.

But he choose option number four, the "nuclear option" if you will.

Since only Fantasy Flight, and certainly no one on this board, controls the content of their products, the nuclear option is useless. It only results in a high level of poo flinging and unnecessary personal attacks, which is detrimental to productive discourse on the board, should that be desired.

But carry on....

Quote from: PaladinCA;452889The way I see it, the OP has a list of choices.

1. Buy the other books, which he says he can't afford.
2. Make up the stuff he needs to use, which he doesn't want to do.
3. Not run Deathwatch.

But he choose option number four, the "nuclear option" if you will.

Since only Fantasy Flight, and certainly no one on this board, controls the content of their products, the nuclear option is useless. It only results in a high level of poo flinging and unnecessary personal attacks, which is detrimental to productive discourse on the board, should that be desired.

But carry on....

A Paladin appears and tries to cast calm emotions:

J Arcane fails his save and is calmed
Peregrin critically fails his save and is calmed
DrakNinj the Wizlord passes his save and remains hostile
Blackhand passes his save and remains hostile
Pika critically fails his save and is calmed
Troll passes his save and remains a whiner
Butters fails his save and is calmed (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991670/)

Ghost does have one point, however.

If you play The Laundry, you get enough info to actually play in The Laundry world without having read the books, same with Dresden, same with MERP.

If you try to run the Imperium with only what they give you in Dark Heresy, without having followed the setting the past 20-some years, you're in a very weak position knowledge-wise.

The FFG 40k games are written to almost require the novels, codices and wargame books in order to run a "world in motion" campaign (I'm sure GW has that in mind, everything made for the wargame is supplemental for the RPG, the RPG brings nothing to the wargame).  By making the game more narratively and thematically focused, FFG gets around the limitation GW puts on them.

The same technique is being done by C7 for The One Ring.  Instead of filling in tons of background information on Middle-Earth (which would require access to the Silmarillion and History of Middle-Earth, which no one's gonna get), they provide a laser-like focus on a specific area post-Hobbit and go forward through the generations on the way to LotR.  People who want a game like MERP will be as disappointed as Ghost is about Dark Heresy.   ICE tried to make a fully detailed emulative Middle-Earth, they had to violate the license to do it and got it yanked.

Green Ronin has the same problem, the Fatman has to ok anything for SIFRP, and he's on geological time.  Likewise Bioware has to ok anything Thedas, so they can't just come out with a 256-page hardbound book about the Tevinter Imperium.  

IP restrictions place serious handcuffs on RPG writers of licensed settings.  That leads to a level of dissatisfaction with any licensed property.  GW's heavy-handedness in this regard and FFG's method of dealing with it leaves the 40krpg's even more susceptible to this satisfaction if you don't have all the wargaming material to fall back on.

Quote from: CRKrueger;452892Ghost does have one point, however.

If you play The Laundry, you get enough info to actually play in The Laundry world without having read the books, same with Dresden, same with MERP.

If you try to run the Imperium with only what they give you in Dark Heresy, without having followed the setting the past 20-some years, you're in a very weak position knowledge-wise.

The FFG 40k games are written to almost require the novels, codices and wargame books in order to run a "world in motion" campaign (I'm sure GW has that in mind, everything made for the wargame is supplemental for the RPG, the RPG brings nothing to the wargame).  By making the game more narratively and thematically focused, FFG gets around the limitation GW puts on them.

The same technique is being done by C7 for The One Ring.  Instead of filling in tons of background information on Middle-Earth (which would require access to the Silmarillion and History of Middle-Earth, which no one's gonna get), they provide a laser-like focus on a specific area post-Hobbit and go forward through the generations on the way to LotR.  People who want a game like MERP will be as disappointed as Ghost is about Dark Heresy.   ICE tried to make a fully detailed emulative Middle-Earth, they had to violate the license to do it and got it yanked.

Green Ronin has the same problem, the Fatman has to ok anything for SIFRP, and he's on geological time.  Likewise Bioware has to ok anything Thedas, so they can't just come out with a 256-page hardbound book about the Tevinter Imperium.  

IP restrictions place serious handcuffs on RPG writers of licensed settings.  That leads to a level of dissatisfaction with any licensed property.  GW's heavy-handedness in this regard and FFG's method of dealing with it leaves the 40krpg's even more susceptible to this satisfaction if you don't have all the wargaming material to fall back on.

Only a partial success on the Knowledge (40K) check for Krueger the Barbarian. (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991672/)

Passing a higher DC would have allowed you to learn the names of multiple free resources with extensive information on the setting that are easily used instead of buying expensive books. Because of your low roll, if you want to learn more, you must pay 35gp for each book.

Quote from: danbuter;452873This feels like Tangency, with all the cool kids baiting one person they don't like.

No baiting - pointing and laughing.

Seanchai

As an aside, I don't buy my books from retail outlets like my FLGS.

I don't really care for the FLGS.

I buy on ebay and on average get my books 20 Imperial Crowns cheaper.

Rogue Trader?  40 bucks!  New!

Inquisitor's Handbook?  28 bucks!  New!

Deathwatch?  38 bucks!  New!!

Once you see the power of Ebay, your FLGS needs to buck up what they are offering if they want you to spend your money there.  60 bucks for Deathwatch?

No thanks.

Amazon also offers most of the 40k RPG books at steep discounts.

Quote from: CRKrueger;452892Ghost does have one point, however.

(Snipped for brevity.)

What baffles me the most is that a catch all Xenos (or Xenos/Chaos) Compendium would sell like nobody's business. The demand is clearly there for this, in fact probably more than anything else 40k related, and if the games are as cross compatible as has been claimed (which, again is something you won't know without bitter experience) then it would be very easy to do. Instead they write CA, are about to release Mark and then later there's a Xeno book for RT.

One book would cover all these games very easily. It wouldn't need excruciating detail, but it would be much more than the spartan provision in DW (a game about the people that fight aliens). One book would replace the design costs for three separate products and sell at least as much as all three combined. Now why don't FFG do this?

I would love to know what their thought process or planning processes are. Is it a licensing thing? Who knows, though I have my doubts considering they've allowed kroot and ork pc's and provided xenos in drips and drops hither and yon thus far. So would a centralised resource just not have made more sense.

What disappoints the most is the lack of transparency from FFG. Now they can run their business as they please (and indeed do) but I have seen nothing nor come across nothing pertaining to these issues. There's no communication to the customer/fans/horde as to the whys and wherefores of their approach to all this.

Quote from: danbuter;452897Amazon also offers most of the 40k RPG books at steep discounts.

Indeed, but not so much. It's still a lot of money.

Quote from: Blackhand;452896As an aside, I don't buy my books from retail outlets like my FLGS.

I don't really care for the FLGS.

I buy on ebay and on average get my books 20 Imperial Crowns cheaper.

Rogue Trader?  40 bucks!  New!

Inquisitor's Handbook?  28 bucks!  New!

Deathwatch?  38 bucks!  New!!

Once you see the power of Ebay, your FLGS needs to buck up what they are offering if they want you to spend your money there.  60 bucks for Deathwatch?

No thanks.

Except those are american prices.

Quote from: CRKrueger;452892If you try to run the Imperium with only what they give you in Dark Heresy, without having followed the setting the past 20-some years, you're in a very weak position knowledge-wise.

Actually, my impression is that people who haven't read Eisenhorn and Ravenor when chancing upon (and liking) Dark Heresy, will sooner or later want to read them anyway. (God how I wish there were some decent Rogue Trader novels of approximately equal merit.) Also, my distinct impression is that it also works the other way round, and that GW - for all their apparent IP restrictions - place advertisements for the FFG RPGs in their in house magazine to alert wargamers and novel readers of their existence. So, I take it that FFG and GW take the novels<->RPGs cross pollination pretty much for granted. (I also fail a bit to see how that's a concern.)

That may also address the following point.

Quote from: CRKrueger;452892The FFG 40k games are written to almost require the novels, codices and wargame books in order to run a "world in motion" campaign (I'm sure GW has that in mind, everything made for the wargame is supplemental for the RPG, the RPG brings nothing to the wargame).  By making the game more narratively and thematically focused, FFG gets around the limitation GW puts on them.

Thanks for that, I had never thought upon that way to rationalize the lack of background world info in the FFG product (beyond their own niches like Koronus et al). There's a thread on the FFG forums I book marked ages ago, it's posting #23 by Adam France in this thread (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efpag=1&efid=70&efcid=3&efidt=301714) - he remarks on the the development (in FFG product) your posting may help to rationalize.

I agree with Pseudoephedrine that, as long as Lexicanum exists, there's nothing to complain about from a customer's perspective. It's as if WotC would offer their background articles on DDI for free, really, with the decisive difference that stuff on Lexicanum is usually well researched and moderately well written.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452899(Snipped for brevity.)

What baffles me the most is that a catch all Xenos (or Xenos/Chaos) Compendium would sell like nobody's business. The demand is clearly there for this, in fact probably more than anything else 40k related, and if the games are as cross compatible as has been claimed (which, again is something you won't know without bitter experience) then it would be very easy to do. Instead they write CA, are about to release Mark and then later there's a Xeno book for RT.

One book would cover all these games very easily. It wouldn't need excruciating detail, but it would be much more than the spartan provision in DW (a game about the people that fight aliens). One book would replace the design costs for three separate products and sell at least as much as all three combined. Now why don't FFG do this?

I would love to know what their thought process or planning processes are. Is it a licensing thing? Who knows, though I have my doubts considering they've allowed kroot and ork pc's and provided xenos in drips and drops hither and yon thus far. So would a centralised resource just not have made more sense.

What disappoints the most is the lack of transparency from FFG. Now they can run their business as they please (and indeed do) but I have seen nothing nor come across nothing pertaining to these issues. There's no communication to the customer/fans/horde as to the whys and wherefores of their approach to all this.

I'm just going to let you know that you're way off base here.

I'd be pissed if they put all xenos / chaos antagonists in one book.

I don't think that volume would sell.  It would be entirely at odds with the design and the line would suffer for it.

Blackhand misses with his axe of price chopping! (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991708/)

The Skulking Butters tries to backstab troll! Hit! (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991713/)

6 damage to troll! (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991714/)

The troll multipost attacks! (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991709/)

Critical hit on Krueger the Barbarian!

Skulking Butters is missed!

Blackhand is hit!

Krueger the Barbarian takes 20 points of damage!
Blackhand takes 3 points of damage! (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991711/)

Blackhand uses counter-attack!

Miss! The troll is unharmed! (http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/2991712/)

Troll regenerates!

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452901Except those are american prices.

Yeah, so basically HALF them for you UKs.

Quote from: Blackhand;452904I'm just going to let you know that you're way off base here.

I'd be pissed if they put all xenos / chaos antagonists in one book.

I don't think that volume would sell.  It would be entirely at odds with the design and the line would suffer for it.

And why, pray tell, would that be?

They don't have to put both chaos and xenos in one book. Two would cover all of it just sufficiently if need be. That's an acceptable compromise.

Though heavens forfend if it pisses you off of course.

Quote from: Blackhand;452908Yeah, so basically HALF them for you UKs.

Oh dear.

Quote from: Blackhand;452904I'm just going to let you know that you're way off base here.

I'd be pissed if they put all xenos / chaos antagonists in one book.

I don't think that volume would sell.  It would be entirely at odds with the design and the line would suffer for it.

In a thread chock full of stupidity, this takes the cake.

Yeah, let's not have stuff in an easy to use reference manual because otherwise people could use it for badwrongfun.  :rolleyes:

Heaven forbid someone not want to lug around a dozen different books to the gaming sessions and having to stop play to search through all of them to try and figure out which one has the Eldar Guardian stat in it.

Yes, you are correct, making things efficient and accessible is evil.  All hail the QWERTY-esque FFG design method!  It's better that way, honest.  :duh:

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452910Oh dear.

Here's a link to an ebay buy-it-now (http://cgi.ebay.com/Warhammer-40k-RPG-DEATHWATCH-Core-Rules-Rulebook-/120633429581?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c16500e4d#ht_671wt_702).  Free shipping worldwide.

$42.47 USD = 25.71 GPB??

Quote from: Blackhand;452896Deathwatch?  38 bucks!  New!!

I said basically half.  43% is pretty fucking close.  

Quote from: jgants;452918In a thread chock full of stupidity, this takes the cake.

Yeah, let's not have stuff in an easy to use reference manual because otherwise people could use it for badwrongfun.  :rolleyes:

Heaven forbid someone not want to lug around a dozen different books to the gaming sessions and having to stop play to search through all of them to try and figure out which one has the Eldar Guardian stat in it.

Yes, you are correct, making things efficient and accessible is evil.  All hail the QWERTY-esque FFG design method!  It's better that way, honest.  :duh:

/fail

I'm referring not only to the design of the line as FFG has plotted it out, but also to the aesthetics of Warhammer in general.

Maybe my opinion is skewed because I don't mind buying books that are good looking and I also don't have to lug anything anywhere.  I already have all the reference material and all the miniatures and terrain besides...It's all up in the clubhouse.

Quote from: Blackhand;452904I'm just going to let you know that you're way off base here.

I'd be pissed if they put all xenos / chaos antagonists in one book.

I think you'd be all alone in that lonesome prairie... pissing all over yourself.

QuoteI don't think that volume would sell.  It would be entirely at odds with the design and the line would suffer for it.

I don't think you've got a clue what would/wouldn't sell... because you're too busy telling people why they should play the game according to your Canon Queen protocols... because you're the big 40K Know-it-all and play with miniatures and read all the books and have a napkin with Rick Priestley's cum on it and blah blah blah...

I'd buy a Xenos/Chaos book... I'd play Eldar... I don't give a fuck if GW wants MY game table to be humanocentric or not.

Eh, if they're going to put out yet _another_ antagonist book, there's only two options for it I'd like to see:

1) A monster and villain construction kit. Not just the one in the DH GM's kit, but a compendium of ideas, talents and rules for building arch-heretics, mutated monsters, daemons and xeno lifeforms and cultures.

2) A good villain compendium for RT with statted out fleets and an entire villainous bridge crew, complete with endeavours they're engaged in that you can screw with. Call it "Win At All Costs" or something.

We really don't need another monster manual after Mark of the Xenos comes out.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452956Eh, if they're going to put out yet _another_ antagonist book, there's only two options for it I'd like to see:

I'm just responding to the idea of putting all the critters/races in one place... servicing all three games.

Quote1) A monster and villain construction kit. Not just the one in the DH GM's kit, but a compendium of ideas, talents and rules for building arch-heretics, mutated monsters, daemons and xeno lifeforms and cultures.

Yep, that would be a nice thing to have.

Quote2) A good villain compendium for RT with statted out fleets and an entire villainous bridge crew, complete with endeavours they're engaged in that you can screw with. Call it "Win At All Costs" or something.

That would make for a great anthology of proto-adventures.

QuoteWe really don't need another monster manual after Mark of the Xenos comes out.

'need'? Is it ever a matter of 'needing' more monster books?

Quote

Quote from: Blackhand;452936Here's a link to an ebay buy-it-now (http://cgi.ebay.com/Warhammer-40k-RPG-DEATHWATCH-Core-Rules-Rulebook-/120633429581?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c16500e4d#ht_671wt_702).  Free shipping worldwide.

$42.47 USD = 25.71 GPB??

Unbelievable. If you actually had read what i'd written, instead of insulting me at every turn, you'd have picked up the fact that I'd brought the bloody book a couple of days ago.

Oh and that would cost me a total of $83 including transatlantic shipping.

6 Xeno factions (not including Chaos if that's what we want to do) at a total of 40 pages each would be a 240 page supplement. Or you could chuck in Chaos as well to cover all bases for another 60 pages and that's still perfectly feasible. 40K isn't a setting with an endless supply of antagonists and aliens, like Star Trek. Even then there's nothing stopping FFG releasing subsequent compendiums with Xenos of their own design.

I fail to see how that's beyond the wit of man. Obviously FFG think the success of the game lies in stringing out such info across all sorts of books and gamelines, no matter how haphazard. I don't believe that's in their or the players' best interests. THey must have considered what I suggest surely!

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;453019Oh and that would cost me a total of $83 including transatlantic shipping.

Yes. So we got a person here who not only doesn't know how to operate Ebay, but also argues that disproportionately priced RPG books are fine marketing policy because them webshops will provide them at significantly reduced pricing.

It's pretty clear at this point that FFG has made a couple of important decisions on the 40K RPG lines based on the main strategy of catering to a small segment of dedicated fans. Those fans don't mind the pricing, or the shoddy editing, or the at times dubious selection and distribution of content. Apparently, those decisions have worked out for FFG, or otherwise they wouldn't follow them so rigorously. In that sense, I think it's pointless to vent anger over these decisions, especially towards people who've accepted them.

The decisions FFG have worked out in the sense they are able to (presumably) continue making these books and such.

I feel they could easily choose a better path and still have things work out. IE, the 40k fans being such would have supported pretty much anything.

In many ways it would be easier for me to jsut download the supplements and print out the parts i want (again assuming they are as cross compatible as has been claimed - there's no real way to test that other than play). All of the books are available online as pdf's to purchase or to pirate. I don't think4chan could give a shit what business decisions FFG take.

Of course someone will now come on and claim i'm making threats of piracy - woo! woo!

Quote from: Blackhand;452904I'm just going to let you know that you're way off base here.

I'd be pissed if they put all xenos / chaos antagonists in one book.

I don't think that volume would sell.  It would be entirely at odds with the design and the line would suffer for it.

I'd buy a Xenos book in a heartbeat. So would everyone at my LGS who is playing. It's our one gripe about the game.

Quote from: Blackhand;452936/fail



Maybe my opinion is skewed because I'm rich and you're a poor loser.

FTFY

Quote from: Windjammer;453034Yes. So we got a person here who not only doesn't know how to operate Ebay, but also argues that disproportionately priced RPG books are fine marketing policy because them webshops will provide them at significantly reduced pricing.

It's pretty clear at this point that FFG has made a couple of important decisions on the 40K RPG lines based on the main strategy of catering to a small segment of dedicated fans. Those fans don't mind the pricing, or the shoddy editing, or the at times dubious selection and distribution of content. Apparently, those decisions have worked out for FFG, or otherwise they wouldn't follow them so rigorously. In that sense, I think it's pointless to vent anger over these decisions, especially towards people who've accepted them.

Rogue Trader's the only line that's been mishandled IMHO (too many modules, not enough new crunch). DW is still pretty early in the cycle (adventures, overflow, monsters, theme splats).

DH's line development is actually really well done. One of the few games where I look forward to the supplements and find them good value. Also the game with the most useful supplements for the other two games. Disciples of the Dark Gods, for example, is one of the best enemy books I've ever read. I adapt ideas and stats from it in almost every 40K campaign I run.

Regarding a new monsters book, I'd like one with all the monster races, with statted-out troops, specialists and a major NPC or two for each race. It would make my life much easier. For example, while I would never use necrons or tau, I'm sure someone else would, so why leave them hanging?

Quote from: danbuter;453038I'd buy a Xenos book in a heartbeat. So would everyone at my LGS who is playing. It's our one gripe about the game.

has anyone tried asking FFG why they don't (or didn't) do this? I can't find any such comment.

Quote from: danbuter;453043Regarding a new monsters book, I'd like one with all the monster races, with statted-out troops, specialists and a major NPC or two for each race. It would make my life much easier. For example, while I would never use necrons or tau, I'm sure someone else would, so why leave them hanging?

Sounds entirely reasonable to me. I thought about how i'd use Tau:

1. A commander unit that becomes a Red Baronedque rival to the kill team (I'd do the same with Eldar tbh), like an honourable Samurai they meet in battle endlessly polite and determined. A master strategist.
2. An ethereal type (don't know much about this part of the Tau) serving as a prophet type rallying worlds to the Greater Good that have long been cut off from the Imperium, promising protection against other threats (like chaos, or a waaagh).

The first is not impossible out of the book as they give you a Tau Commander unit.
The second isn't possible with the material as written. I know Rites of Battle mentions an Ethereal the DW have prisoner, but there's still no rules or stats for their kind and their abilities.

Both seem equally reasonable ideas to me, but one would seem to be beyond FFG's capability and is thus highly contentious even though it's just as in keeping with the setting.

Quote from: Blackhand;452870I actually agree.  I don't believe ANY xenos should be a playable character.

And I don't have a personal problem with that idea as a simple fan of the game. As a GM I have a problem with it because I have players that just won't play humans.

QuoteWaaagh! is a group bellow that used by GW to create momentum at the tournaments and at Games Day.  It's not strictly indicative that those players are playing that army.

That first line? That's why I respond with snark about how little I apparently know about 40k.  Duh.  The second line, also duh. We both know what a Waagh is.   My point is that I understand that Orks are both popular (many players) and more importantly, Iconic.  

QuoteA series of "campaign settings" each detailing a specific point in the Imperium where these xenos interact with the Imperium might be nice.

Then we could all be happy.

Or maybe instead, a more flexible character creation system from the start so that GM's could set up their own campaigns just fine. A die hard fan of the setting doesn't need a good point in the setting to figure out how an Eldar might be working with an Inquisitor (There are novels for that already), and a non-fan who likes the aesthetics doesn't care.

QuoteSorry you gave up on the rules.  Maybe you need a better wargames club?

Buying three new space marines codexes within a space of about two years is more a deal breaker than the gaming club, though I will admit the local outrider was an asshole.  Ditto the 'whole new edition' treadmill, where Edition 4 was really like 3.1, only a few minor changes that would trip you up if you forgot about 'em, since everything else was the same, and edition 5 which, to my knowledge is really 3.15...

Never mind price bloat on things like Terminators. Sweet models but overpriced to the point where I'd rather pay a hooker to fuck me up the ass. At least she'd use lube AND charge less money for the 'privilege'.

QuoteGue'vesa are not Tau.

Again. Duh. Seriously, you really have to get over this idea that no one else knows anything about 40k.  I know what a gue'vesa is. I also know that the mere existance of former imperial servants working and fighting for filthy Xenos means that the Tau's tendancy to convert Imperials makes them just as much a threat as Chaos... and pretty much for the exact same reasons.

QuoteAlmost invariably, everything you gave as an example ends with one or both parties dead.

I'll admit that the canon has gotten much more strict about interactions in the last decade... but some of that has to do with marginalization of those instances where it is possible for peaceful interaction than outright contradiction of earlier lore.  But then, you've already admitted to a strong 'no Xenos in my Imperium' bias, so I can see why you'd chose to ignore or interpret those cases that do exist as 'always bad'.

Of course, just within the FFG line of books we have such contradictions as Halo Artifacts being extremely dangerous and trade in them banned by the inquisition, and Rogue Trader's whose fucking entire purpose, defined by their Warrant, is to collect as many as they can and sell them in the Imperium for big monies...

So contradictions regarding the acceptability of talking to a fucking space elf is to be expected.

QuoteAgain, I agree.  I'd still rather have no aliens, which is really the only design choice I have a beef with.  Not which aliens are included (which to me is irrelevant) but that they were in the first place.

And I find it silly to have a setting that includes all those aliens, and people who explicitly are above or outside the law (Inquisitors and Rogue Traders, respectively) who have to treat them like D&D Orcs... mindless drones to be farmed for XP and loots... or not loots, since its all apparently heretical to own.  I think the earlier, wilder and woolier times of 40k lore are better suited for RPG use than the current, table top dominated, total, genocidal war all the time attitude.

QuoteThe entire point of a Black Crusade (and the Chaos Legions in general) is to bring about the destruction of the Imperium.  ALL OF SPACE is the Imperium.

They are in the Imperium, even if they control a small portion of that space.  Or they are invading an Imperial world.

It is very much about the Imperium, only it's the "bad guys" that hate it and are running around in it destroying it rather than the warriors that defend it.

By that argument, a game set from the point of view of the Tyrannids is 'All about the Imperium, is in fact Imperium-Centric' because, well, the Imperium is the biggest owner of biomass in space, thus is the natural enemy the Tyrannids want to fight.

Again: Being Against something is NOT EQUAL to being about something.

I accept that they are close kin, but the argument you make is non-specific enough that it can apply to any of the badguy races in 40k, though it does sound sillier with some (as I demonstrated).

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;453041Rogue Trader's the only line that's been mishandled IMHO (too many modules, not enough new crunch).

The problem I see with Rogue Trader is that it's actually the most complicated of the 3 (soon, 4) RPGs to run and prep for, because of the type of campaigns it envisages. Deathwatch may be a bit niche, but it's comparatively well defined in its expectations towards the GM and the players. With Rogue Trader on the other hand, it was initially both unclear a) what the adventure is supposed to look like - how the Profit system creates detailed scenarios at the micro level - and b) which resources a GM would need to create and run such adventures.

In that situation, FFG's choice to provide adventures was not that odd. Lure of the Expanse showed people how one way to run RT games could look like. So people are now clearer as to the bigger picture. The problem is with b), in that some areas still lack consolidated support. If you think back to the adventure in the GM Kit, which was produced shortly after the core rulebook, it was impossible to run without expanded rules for space and on-ground combat. Now, two years later, we got Battlefleet Koronus which for the first time addresses these issues - but not entirely satisfactorily. There's a huge thread on FFG right now (iirc) where customers try to figure out the surface combat rules in that supplement. And that tells me that more work is needed, by way of supplementation and clarification.

Add to that customer's repeated queries for a supplement that expands on the trade and profit system. Like others, I'm actually consulting the Merchant Prince(s) supplement from Mongoose Traveller, but that's nowhere near a good substitute.

So - to basically agree with your point on 'not enough crunch' - ... basically two years into the line, the game lacks support in the very areas that are its selling points - space exploration and trade. And that I take to be the combined result of the game's own ambitions, which are much much vaster than that of its siblings and so require also higher designer competence (higher than FFG can muster), and of FFG's highly aggressive release pace. Rogue Trader is nowhere near being one of FFG's unwanted step children (that honor would go to, for instance, Battles of Westeros), but it isn't high up on their list of priorities either.

God, I've got the Pocket edition Merchant princes. Fuck, I hate that book... totally did NOT help me out.

Then again, contrasting what I saw in MP with Mercenary, I'd say that Mongoose never thinks about businesses in terms of Scale... or they think that players are too stupid to follow along, I don't know which.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled abusement of the local troll...

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;4530276 Xeno factions (not including Chaos if that's what we want to do) at a total of 40 pages each would be a 240 page supplement. Or you could chuck in Chaos as well to cover all bases for another 60 pages and that's still perfectly feasible. 40K isn't a setting with an endless supply of antagonists and aliens, like Star Trek. Even then there's nothing stopping FFG releasing subsequent compendiums with Xenos of their own design.

...

Holy shit.

Quote from: Blackhand;453093Holy shit.

What? The part where he says there "isn't an endless supply of aliens like ST," or the "40 page treatment for each Xeno race," or all of the points at once?

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452893Passing a higher DC would have allowed you to learn the names of multiple free resources with extensive information on the setting that are easily used instead of buying expensive books. Because of your low roll, if you want to learn more, you must pay 35gp for each book.

Krueger the Barbarian has all the books, I was trying to imagine not having all the books.  You are right, there is a large amount of free info out there, however, GW's IP policies prevent a lot of outright quotes, so many resources give factoids and summaries with page numbers for research, more canon indices then true encyclopedias.

Quote from: Windjammer;453083The problem I see with Rogue Trader is that it's actually the most complicated of the 3 (soon, 4) RPGs to run and prep for, because of the type of campaigns it envisages. Deathwatch may be a bit niche, but it's comparatively well defined in its expectations towards the GM and the players. With Rogue Trader on the other hand, it was initially both unclear a) what the adventure is supposed to look like - how the Profit system creates detailed scenarios at the micro level - and b) which resources a GM would need to create and run such adventures.

This is where I think they went awry. As someone who was looking forward to RT and planning a campaign even before it came out, my problem was never the "what" but the "how", and from what I've seen, that's the main problem with the game.

DH and DW, while differing in power somewhat, mainly focus on PCs stomping around doing things in person. You might call in a lance strike once in a while, but the core of the game is the activity of a small party and their behaviour. The two games are similar enough in their assumptions about PC capabilities that you can convert things between them fairly easily. A good antagonist in one is a good antagonist in the other, a cool piece of kit or a neat vehicle slip between the two easily and affect PC power and capabilities in a relatively straightforward way.

The core of Rogue Trader though, isn't so much about a small group of space bros broing it up as it is about a ship, and in 40K, a giant ass ship with thousands of people with all sorts of skill sets and resources to draw on. You happen to play some of the more interesting people who make decisions for the ship, but you're really as much a servant to it as it is to you.

But the supps appear to be written with the premise that you're still gonna be dealing with problems personally, and that most of the challenges and concerns you're gonna face are gonna be squad-level problems, and so the systems are built to handle those kinds of situations.

Outside of fighting other ships by flying past them and shooting broadsides, and getting you from one system to another, the ship's capabilities are much more nebulous than I would expect from a game where it's the starring entity. This is especially true outside of the raw physical capabilities of the ship, where all of the myriad possibilities of ship life aboard a giant floating city are represented by two stats (Crew and Morale) that mainly fluctuate based on equipment and damage.

e.g. I was driving a PC home after the last session of DW and we were talking about the current game. He was the RT in the RT campaign I ran last year, and we were talking about the fight that had just happened with the Titan. We were talking about the different power levels, and I mentioned that I had made some parts of this fight easier than I normally would b/c it was the first fight of the game and I wasn't 100% sure of how the whole space marine power level thing was gonna hash out in practice.

He asked a really interesting question "So, how would this game have been different if we'd been a rogue trader crew instead of SMs?" and the only response I could think of was "I don't think this premise would have even worked as a rogue trader game because of the ship. You'd just hose the Titan from orbit and teep down a regiment of guys to do the actual capture [of Titus Hyle]."

What FFG needs to do, and is only now really starting to do, maybe, with BK, is address the issue of the ship being the real locus of player action in-game, not the players' characters.

Quote from: CRKrueger;453098Krueger the Barbarian has all the books, I was trying to imagine not having all the books.  You are right, there is a large amount of free info out there, however, GW's IP policies prevent a lot of outright quotes, so many resources give factoids and summaries with page numbers for research, more canon indices then true encyclopedias.

They sneak a lot in, and TBH, most of the original content is more clearly written than GW's stuff.

Ghost, the answer to "Why doesn't FFG do (whatever)? is "GW won't let them."

GW doesn't care about RPGs at all.  They are a "toy soldier company" as one founder was quoted as saying.  Dark Heresy sold out the week it was released, GW closed down Black Industries anyway.  Why?  Because they couldn't care less about RPGs, to them the only possible value of an RPG is to sell miniatures and Codices to RPGers.

Too much information about the official 40k setting or racial info in a book means someone doesn't buy that from GW and that people might look to the RPG for setting info instead of the wargame.  It's been that way for decades.

Like, ultimately I don't need someone to say "You should steal an ice planet's crystalline wealth, bro!" I need to know how much crystalline wealth the ice planet has, and how many space bitches I'm gonna evaporate when I park my ship in low orbit over the ice king's palace, and how whiny my spacemen are gonna be if I send them down without snowsuits to haul that shit up to my space bank.

What's weird to me about the talk of Rogue Trader failing to address premise properly, is that the original premise of 40k WAS Rogue Trader.  The whole game was centered around the skirmishes of RT garrisons and such.

For that matter, Space Hulk was a direct off shoot of Rogue Trader activities as well.

Did anyone on the FFG staff actually go back and look at the old game?

Quote from: Benoist;453096What? The part where he says there "isn't an endless supply of aliens like ST," or the "40 page treatment for each Xeno race," or all of the points at once?

Yeah...

Quote from: J Arcane;453106What's weird to me about the talk of Rogue Trader failing to address premise properly, is that the original premise of 40k WAS Rogue Trader.  The whole game was centered around the skirmishes of RT garrisons and such.

For that matter, Space Hulk was a direct off shoot of Rogue Trader activities as well.

Did anyone on the FFG staff actually go back and look at the old game?

It doesn't matter what the old Rogue Traders were - basically Conquistador/Diplomats who went beyond the Imperium, it matters what the new GW Rogue Traders are - Yankee Traders/human Ferengi.  That's what they had to work with.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;453099The core of Rogue Trader though, isn't so much about a small group of space bros broing it up as it is about a ship, and in 40K, a giant ass ship with thousands of people with all sorts of skill sets and resources to draw on. You happen to play some of the more interesting people who make decisions for the ship, but you're really as much a servant to it as it is to you.

Beautiful post over all, especially the closing line here.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;453099He asked a really interesting question "So, how would this game have been different if we'd been a rogue trader crew instead of SMs?" and the only response I could think of was "I don't think this premise would have even worked as a rogue trader game because of the ship. You'd just hose the Titan from orbit and teep down a regiment of guys to do the actual capture [of Titus Hyle]."

Yes, exactly. Another thread (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=123&efcid=3&efidt=223217) I bookmarked long ago, with quite some effort from players and GMs to try to think around that problem and provide in-game rationalizations (rather unsuccessfully, in my view). - Edit. Also, I found the Ciaphas Cain novels to provide several (if satirical) responses to the problem - e.g. his famous line that if you don't display good leadership towards the troops, the first bullett you're going to take in a fight will come from behind you. The hilarity of him trying to avoid exposure to and direct contact with the enemy at all costs, and always ending up in exactly that position. Which is of course impossible to engineer in a RPG unless you railroad the PCs. Every. Bloody. Time.

Quote from: CRKrueger;453103Ghost, the answer to "Why doesn't FFG do (whatever)? is "GW won't let them."

GW doesn't care about RPGs at all.  They are a "toy soldier company" as one founder was quoted as saying.  Dark Heresy sold out the week it was released, GW closed down Black Industries anyway.  Why?  Because they couldn't care less about RPGs, to them the only possible value of an RPG is to sell miniatures and Codices to RPGers.

Too much information about the official 40k setting or racial info in a book means someone doesn't buy that from GW and that people might look to the RPG for setting info instead of the wargame.  It's been that way for decades.

I understand all this, but I really don't buy that GW aren't letting them do things sensibly. I would if there were no sources for info on eldar, orks, whatever at all, but they exist officially, it's just they are scattered all over the place. So GW are obviously allowing FFG to create eldar and orks and even dark eldar, as well as chaos, tau and tyranids. You can even play kroot or orks!

But wothout seeing that license there's no way to be sure what the reasons are.

Quote from: Windjammer;453116Yes, exactly. Another thread (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=123&efcid=3&efidt=223217) I bookmarked long ago, with quite some effort from players and GMs to try to think around that problem and provide in-game rationalizations (rather unsuccessfully, in my view). - Edit.

I would have preferred to run RT as a firefly scale premise, rather than controlling a ship with a crew in the tens of thousands. It's just mind boggling to conceive. Is any Lord Captain going to risk beaming down and leaving his ship in charge of 40,000+ slaves/servants/swabs? Even on the Serenity with it's crew of a handful Mal is constantly reminding everyone it's HIS boat.

40k is a bit different than Firefly.

Personally, I wish Dark Heresy was more like Father Ted.

Quote from: Blackhand;45312840k is a bit different than Firefly.

RT is the one game out of the three that I don't have, and it's kind of what's holding my hand regards to it. In the sense that on a premise of flying around and doing trade and stuff, as a role player, I imagine either doing some smuggling with a relatively (mostly PC) small crew a la Firefly, or commandeering a big ship a la Entreprise. I don't "feel" RT on that line at all.

Reading Pseudo's post, there seems to be some kind of confusion going on in the game itself.

I'm another who would probably get along better with a Rogue Trader campaign based around a smaller ship/crew... or a big ship/crew with the PCs as members of something like Prime Directive's 'Prime Teams'... rather than the actual bridge crew.
But I suppose that wouldn't be a proper Rogue Trader operation any more... it would either be pirates/smugglers, operating outside of Imperial mandate... or some other sort of Imperial operative who needs a ship and freedom to use it, but not an army to back him up.

Either way, shouldn't be too hard to make it happen on the table... but it won't ever be 'Chapter Approved'.

Quote from: Windjammer;453116Another thread (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=123&efcid=3&efidt=223217) I bookmarked long ago,

That thread includes realisation of the pecularities of RT that really should have been used by the game's writers. I'm posting this particular reply even though it's got nothing to do with DW because it has actually made me reconsider giving up on RT (though it's a bit late now!).

The idea of a ship of tens of thousands is insane, perhaps even by gaming standards, because it's just so hard to comprehend.
But then you factor in the dark ages in space vibe that 40k has, which to most everyone else is probably obvious.
Then it occurred to me that you aren't a RT aboard a big spaceship; you are the liege lord of a travelling citadel in space - a fief ship - like a mercantile Camelot (though perhaps less noble :D) parading through the warp. As such the crew aren't just spacebound seamen, they include their families and the relevant support infrastructure.
So you don't have farmers tilling the fief, you have farmers tilling the hydroponics bay that feeds the ship. You then have onboard bakers and cooks to prepare the food, milk the cows (!) and such. You would probably even have an inn aboard ship to serve food and give rest to the crew between shifts. You would have a chapel to give the crew a structure and a routine as they work in the name of the RT and give praise to the God Emperor. You would have servants working to toll the bell and take confession, reporting to the Seneschal (or whatever) PC.
There's probably even a marketplace. Here you the RT could lease space to travelling merchants to help run the ship as well as sell off some of what he finds. When the ship docks at Port Wander, peopel come aboard to trade at the marketplace just as crew go ashore.
An entire feudal fiefdom in space almost like a medieval Babylon 5 (which is only a few times larger than the average RT ship).
The RT and his crew (the pcs) are the kings and his knights in the keep (the bridge). Sometimes they come into town and mingle with the crew, perhaps hosting social events - like a joust or an archery competition. Who knows Robin Hood of Eldar could come aboard and win the competition if the RT is evil like the Sheriff of Nottingham. Maybe there's an entire deck that the crew know as 'haunted' that's off limits because that's where the kroot contingent that serve the Lord Captain live.
You could have a PC group similar to that of Camelot in Merlin, where the ship is really in the hands of the Lord Captain character's father, the elder of the dynasty who's on his last legs. He himself is a more intolerant, harsh figure, though respected by the crew. His son, the player Rogue Trader (Arthur, by comparison) is more loved by the crew and has leave to lead all the away missions in prepartion for his due inheritance of the ship.

Im sure this is all quite obvious to everyone else, but it has made me want to play the game now.

That is an interesting take on it... it hadn't occured to me to look at it that way but it does make sense. Kinda changes my outlook on RT too...

You're right, Ghost, that's pretty much exactly what a RT campaign should be like.  If you look back at the original RT, they didn't normally have a single ship, they had fleets.  Take the idea of a "fief in space" and now spread it around an entire fleet and you get a medieval Battlestar Galactica.

That makes a RT trader campaign a perfect place for troupe play.  You want to do Firefly?  A fleet like that would need lots of scouts, spies, independent agents etc. to do minor deals and gather information.  You want to do Deathwatch?  If the RT finds a world that needs to be conquered to be brought back into the Imperium, use the DW rules with normal Astartes - Templars, Mentor Legion or a team of Raven Guard to spearhead the attack.

The original 40k (rogue trader) was also a skirmish game where the average 'army' was the size of a DW kill team. Of course, increase the point requirements, reduce the point costs, profit!

A medieval travelling B5 really interests me. The command crew (the pc's) can still quest while they will have a contingent of 'castle officials' (sherriffs, advisers, accountants, and militia) to run the ship in the absence of the Lord Captain, just as Camelot functions in the absence of Arthur.

In fact you could have a scenario where a ship is run by a brother to the lord Captain, a King John figure that runs the ship with an iron fist squeezing the crew's taxes and working them like dogs, while his brother, the true Lord Captain, is off on some Xeno Crusade somewhere.

I think we're far enough past the original Rogue Trader that any post that starts out hearkening back to it is immediately to be discounted.

Especially if a certain amount of ignorance is expressed during that post.

I actually have the original Rogue Trader, and it's more about Space Marines than Rogue Traders.  Also, such an army is still much bigger than a Kill Team.

Quote from: Blackhand;453419I think we're far enough past the original Rogue Trader that any post that starts out hearkening back to it is immediately to be discounted.

Especially if a certain amount of ignorance is expressed during that post.

I'm pretty sure you've got me stifled Blackhand, but if you are still getting my signal... go fuck yourself.

Rogue Trader set up a wild and wacky setting that was open to all sorts of potential, different kinds of games, various points of interest. Canon Queen's might like to discount all that has gone before GW's marketing-driven purges... but I don't see why someone setting up their own game shouldn't pick and choose from ALL the available material.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;453331Then it occurred to me that you aren't a RT aboard a big spaceship; you are the liege lord of a travelling citadel in space - a fief ship - like a mercantile Camelot (though perhaps less noble :D) parading through the warp. As such the crew aren't just spacebound seamen, they include their families and the relevant support infrastructure.

With so much space in one of those ships, anything that gets on board would have lots of places to go. It'd be great for having something like Alien with genestealers.

When I ran RT, I tried to play up the feudal elements and it was fun. They had to deal with the machinations of Baron Purzhinsky, who was one of the RT PC's more important but unscrupulous vassals. He was a magnate of the lower decks and had a lot of influence on ship security and its profitability, so even after it turned out he was dealing archaeotech nano-WMDs to one side of a planetary civil war, they couldn't just space him. It was a lot of fun. The other cool sideplot involved changing the dominant sect of the church on board, replacing them with a set of monks more closely allied to the captain's desires than the bishop who normally ran things (who was a NPC stick in the mud).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;453436With so much space in one of those ships, anything that gets on board would have lots of places to go. It'd be great for having something like Alien with genestealers.

and one of the first ideas i had was a rt finding a space hulk filled with treasures - and genestealers. Only the rules didn't give me genestealers to work with.

Just started a new game the other day.

The GM started us out NOT in possession of the ship.

Apparently the entire campaign is going to be run as if the ship is a huge dungeon/city as we fight to the bridge to claim the ancient birthright of the rogue trader (myself).

Really psyched, and it looks to be a ton of fun.

BTW, I can hear you Sim.  I'll be choosing where I put my dick, however.

Quote from: Blackhand;453615Just started a new game the other day.

The GM started us out NOT in possession of the ship.

Apparently the entire campaign is going to be run as if the ship is a huge dungeon/city as we fight to the bridge to claim the ancient birthright of the rogue trader (myself).

Really psyched, and it looks to be a ton of fun.

Yeah, sounds like a good idea for a campaign.

In our DH game, we move between planets in the Rylanth system aboard a Rogue Trader, and there's a lot of fun rooting out heresy in the underdecks as we go.

I found a cheap copy of Rites of Battle on Amazon (and delivered well, too).

Why do the chapter creation rules include parent chapters that don't exist in the game (ie this or the core book)? What on earth is the point of that? Are they in any other book?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;453984I found a cheap copy of Rites of Battle on Amazon (and delivered well, too).

Why do the chapter creation rules include parent chapters that don't exist in the game (ie this or the core book)? What on earth is the point of that? Are they in any other book?

How incredibly indicative.  

There's not a single chapter in that book that was introduced in that book.

So I guess the answer to your questions are:

• There aren't any chapters in the book that don't exist in the game.
• The point would be so you have several examples of successor chapters in Death Watch.
• Yes, they are all mentioned in many books scattered all over creation.

It's fundamentally clear how many people on this board have "their fingers on the pulse of the game", as so many like to put it.

So many of the best Chapters have been excomunicated, purged, decimated or destroyed.

Crimson Fists are down to about 200 strong.

Sons of Malice were excomunicated for eating the Inquisitor sent to quiz them about ritual canibalism. They are now at war with both Chaos and the Imperium.

The Relictors suffered badly during the 13th Black Crusade. I mean Logan Grimnar didn't mind so much when they told him to go fuck himself but Coteaz trumped up charges of heresy and they are now on the run with only about 200 left at most.

The Flame Falcons literally spontaneously combusted and are now ghosts or burning zombies or something.  

13th Company are also on the run from Coteaz though it expected that their regular brothers are helping them hide or that they just went back into the eye of terror.

I have a feeling that as GW plonked Tau Space on the borders of Ultramar the Ultramarines and those successors still loyal to their little domain will be walked over in the next Marine rewrite. Blood Ravens will take over as the iconic Marines.

Quote from: Blackhand;453990How incredibly indicative.  

There's not a single chapter in that book that was introduced in that book.

So I guess the answer to your questions are:

• There aren't any chapters in the book that don't exist in the game.
• The point would be so you have several examples of successor chapters in Death Watch.
• Yes, they are all mentioned in many books scattered all over creation.

It's fundamentally clear how many people on this board have "their fingers on the pulse of the game", as so many like to put it.

The book explicitly states there are chapters on the list that aren't in the book. What are you talking about? They aren't in the core book either.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;453984I found a cheap copy of Rites of Battle on Amazon (and delivered well, too).

Why do the chapter creation rules include parent chapters that don't exist in the game (ie this or the core book)? What on earth is the point of that? Are they in any other book?

From what I've heard, the plan is for them to be put out in future supplements as GW clears FFG to do so. In most cases, the remaining chapters are ones that either haven't been updated recently or dealt with in much detail for an extended period of time.

Quote from: Ian Warner;454008I have a feeling that as GW plonked Tau Space on the borders of Ultramar the Ultramarines and those successors still loyal to their little domain will be walked over in the next Marine rewrite. Blood Ravens will take over as the iconic Marines.

The successors maybe, but Matt Ward has a notorious hard-on for the Smurfs. They've only grown more powerful and influential in the fluff over time.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;454011The book explicitly states there are chapters on the list that aren't in the book. What are you talking about? They aren't in the core book either.

This is complete gibberish.

I really tried looking up what you were talking about.  Best I can figure is the part on Successor Chapters on page 52.  It explains everything there.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;454018The successors maybe, but Matt Ward has a notorious hard-on for the Smurfs. They've only grown more powerful and influential in the fluff over time.

Which is somewhat funny, as the Crimson Fists (with a similar color scheme but entirely another primarch) used to be the big dogs.

Of course, I've also seen a huge push on the Banana's in the last codex and again in Rites of Battle... so maybe Mr. Ward isn't as influential as he'd like.

Quote from: Spike;454052Which is somewhat funny, as the Crimson Fists (with a similar color scheme but entirely another primarch) used to be the big dogs.

Of course, I've also seen a huge push on the Banana's in the last codex and again in Rites of Battle... so maybe Mr. Ward isn't as influential as he'd like.

Crimson Fists were popular because of prominence in the early art work (IIRC 2nd ed. featured them on the cover). After a few editions with new cover art, they dropped out of people's memories. Smurfs took up a lot of that prominence, especially since they were featured in a bunch of cheap boxed and intro sets. CF fandom is the 40K equivalent of grognardery.

The Imperial Fists have been popular for a long time. They're a second-tier popularity SM chapter (along with Dark Angels and Black Templars), but they have their devoted fans, and that keeps them from sliding into mere fluff trivia like the Iron Hands.

My guess is that the next few we see, after Grey Knights come out in the Malleus book, are Salamanders, Blood Ravens and White Scars. Maybe Soul Drinkers as well, if people continue to buy Soul Drinkers novels.

They have outright stated no more Marine knock offs that aren't revisions.

Though I think they'll stretch to the Deathwatch as they included Xenos Inquisitors as an option in Grey Knights.

Quote from: Ian Warner;454060They have outright stated no more Marine knock offs that aren't revisions.

Though I think they'll stretch to the Deathwatch as they included Xenos Inquisitors as an option in Grey Knights.

Not in the wargame, in DW.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;454057CF fandom is the 40K equivalent of grognardery.

So is my insistence on painting my Dark Angels black.

FFG should find a way to sneak the squats back into 40k via a sourcebook imo :)

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;454064Not in the wargame, in DW.

Oh right.

Do we have Relictors yet?

If not they may come out with Daemonhunters.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;454087FFG should find a way to sneak the squats back into 40k via a sourcebook imo :)

That would be pretty funny. I always liked the Squats and their background.

I dont know why GW doesnt just placate the older fans by adding them back in as a subjugated race in the tau codex, at least then people will stop asking about them all the damn time :)

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;454105I dont know why GW doesnt just placate the older fans by adding them back in as a subjugated race in the tau codex, at least then people will stop asking about them all the damn time :)

Meh... it's not as if the GW thought police will come and haul you off if you include them in your games. It would only piss off the fan boys who are best kept away from anyway.

thing is they would actually work as a subject race of the tau(heck from what i remember of the squats it would make them more interesting) so its one of those mysteries that will probably never be solved untill someone gets a job that GW towers who remembers the squats and can sneak them into the codex lol

Quote from: Ian Warner;454092Oh right.

Do we have Relictors yet?

If not they may come out with Daemonhunters.

Yup, they're one of the successor chapters mentioned by name in Rites of Battle.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;454087FFG should find a way to sneak the squats back into 40k via a sourcebook imo :)

They're apparently coming back into the wargame. Apparently during their planet was devoured by the Tyranids and only a few survived... Rescued by the Tau while the Imperium was busy dealing with the 'Nids and the Black Crusade.

It's an interesting twist, I think, if it actually comes to pass. I think it's a wise idea to move away from the "space dwarves" idea and into a set of survivors involved in a diaspora sheltered by new enemies, while they have extensive knowledge of their prior allies.

I can't give proof for this, mind you, but it's rumours I've heard.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;454087FFG should find a way to sneak the squats back into 40k via a sourcebook imo :)

You said it in a later post, but it's actually on the table that the "demiurg" will be vassals to the Tau Empire.  That is, Codex: Tau Empire.  

GW will be sneaking the squats back in themselves!  After that, you know FFG will be tying things together...

Anyways, that's the scuttlebutt.  I'd link to the Warseer post if the site was up...

That demiurg thing has been going on for... six? eight? years now... and all I've ever seen was some concept art and a couple of ships for Battlefleet Gothic, and then only from Forgeworld... though I don't really track BG.

Not that I mind the Demiurg, the old 'funny' squats wouldn't really fit the new Grimdark tone. And hell, the purple gorrilla stealth suits actually grew on me, so who knows.

Not saying it's connected, but last year the White Dwarf subscription mini looked like this.

(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/33615_168949396455413_143064642377222_631843_7419469_a.jpg)

Holy shit that Squat has killed a Grey!

I love the Squats and I have no problem with them being goofy. We still have Ratlings and Ogryns around and they are goofy as hell.

Fuck we have a whole army of goofy green Space Chavs in Da Orkz!

Holy Hannah that thing looks awful!

I'm rather glad that I've never gotten a mini from White Dwarf now, despite having a subscription for years (I let it lapse when I realized I was rereading articles from the year before, again.   Twelve issues and you're set for life! Unless you like the ads....