Also, those who fail to appreciate the sardonic flourish of "Protip" are the bearers of shriveled and enfeebled souls.

What I find amusing about all of this, well the most amusing.  Is that he's wasting his time bitching about what's not going to be to people that are playing - and enjoying - a game that is.  There are lost causes and then there are just well this an utterly futile waste of time.   You want a game, go complain to the people that aren't making the game.   Which is to say go bitch about what's not going to be on the FFG forum, where your complaints are at least in the right ball park.

Seriously fuck, this thread went from a relevant question to a cluster fuck.

The real answer is that DW comes with a dozen enemies from a few factions.  There are more books out covering various other areas of the game from DH and RT and those enemies work in DW just fine.  The only difference is in DH you fight 1, in DW you fight a horde.  Not all the Xeno races are out yet and some of them may never be.  If you want Orcs and Orcs don't exist yet then just take any other stat block of a level you think equates an Orc.  Then using your imagination bingo - you've got an Orc.

Seriously this is rudimentary GM'ing 101.  If you can't grasp that bit and I don't give a rats ass about the 'I want, I want, I want' then you don't have a basis for any further bitching.  We all have a wish list for any game we play of what we'd like to have that isn't already there.  DW is no different.  Your wish list may very.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452715I have made exactly that point. Clearly you are another of these idiots that doesn't fucking read the fucking thread and instead goes off half cocked shouting abuse. I'm sick of being insulted by people like you; learn to FUCKING READ!

Learn to fucking read. I said that you were making an interesting a valid point, but are such a complete fucking idiot that having you as a standard bearer for that point makes any real conversation...about said point... pointless.

But, you know, its just to much to ask of you to actually read and understand one. simple. post.  I mean... next I'll be asking you to read an entire thread!

Horrors!

Quote from: Ramrod;452700The fact that the 40k rpgs are geared towards emulating the fiction and novels is relevant, since 90% of that fiction focuses on the Imperium and the people who live in it. GW has never really cared about novels that are not just about "Imperials fighting enemy X", told from the Imperials perspective. The Eldar, beloved as they are, have gotten like 5 books during their entire existence and only one of those (the one by Thorpe) is worth anything.

Sadly, the truth is that GW really, really, really wants to make the Imperium and the Space Marines the focus of 40k, and it's obvious that FFG were told to do just that - games where you play as an Imperial agent/soldier/magnificent bastard.

Oh sure.  There is a good reason for that, most people have a hard time really getting into 'the other'. The more human the elves are the less important it is that they are elves. In movies and novels this is pretty fucking important.

In a game, however... whether it be tactical or Role-Playing, this is less important.  Most players have no problem sympathizing with their characters or cheering for their army, regardless of how inhuman or inhumane they might be.  Games are, by definition, more sandboxy, more free form than any book, even the most railroady adventure run by the most dickishly strict GM is still more free than even the coolest 'chose your adventure' book.

Thus, pointing out how novels are entirely humanocentric is missing the point that FFG isn't selling a novel... its selling a game.

Its the economics of the industry that shape the constraints. FFG, and for that matter GW, both want to grow the number of people willing to buy their products. Novels that are humanocentric will sell far more copies than novels about freakishly inhuman space elves, which would in turn massively outsell novels from the point of view of hive-mind, world devouring bugs. A wargame, however, can not only sell an army of hive-mind world devouring bugs, but sell more of them than some of the humanocentric armies.

In RPGs the dynamic changes again. World Devouring bugs CAN be sold, but its generally not worth it. Space Elves, however, have the chance to pick up all sorts of players who otherwise don't care about wargames, and thus 40k, but who would leap at the chance to play an exotic, spechul, space elf with a big fuuken gun... and presto! the market for the game expands.

Me? I don't care about the space elves, but one of my players won't touch the game unless she can play one, which is why I mention them specifically.

The point being, since I've wandered: Yes, 40k should be presented as humanocentric, in novels and even in the game, since the customers are ultimately human, and humans like stuff that's just like them. But to ignore the significant percentage of gamers and 40k fans who really like the other, freakshow, races even above and beyond humans is poor marketing and to select races that are either by canon intolerable or have extremely marginal, 40k fan only, fangroups over a race with broad cross over appeal and a built in fanbase that is actually LARGER than the original property seems to be cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.   Quite possibly one of the honchos is one of those gamers who hate seeing elves everywhere (lord, do I understand!), but allowing that personal beef to dominate the development of an existing property is like cutting his own nose off to spite his face.

Its his face to spite, but that doesn't mean I won't comment on it.

Ok, but really...is the subgroup of the market that wants the freakish races to be supported going to be bigger than the portion of the target audience that wants it to be true to 40k, not a space opera or Rifts clone?

I don't think so.  The only people I have heard with these sorts of issues are RPG'rs who are not wargamers.  And every single one of them is a member on this specific board.  

You might not want to hear this, but I'm pretty familiar with GW's practices and I'm pretty sure they view that demographic as tangential.  After all, do you really want to alienate the majority of your target audience (who think you're doing a smashing job) to please a minority who thinks you should be doing it different?

That, sir...is cutting off the nose to spite the face.

GW will not let FFG do things they don't want done.

So, you think having orks running around as Sanctioned Xenos on human worlds... currently encouraged in Rogue Trader... is more in keeping with the fans and the canon as it currently stands than having an Eldar doing the same thing?

I mean, I know I haven't exactly bought assloads of codexes and shit since 5th edition 40k came out, but obviously something big changed along the way.  I mean... was in the novels or something, 'cause I read those too, but lately I've been all in the Horus Heresy shit and there ain't no orks there.


Seriously: You are not trying to claim that Eldar have been deliberately marginalized to keep the 40k fans from crying 'that ain't canon!' are you?

I mean seriously: Kroot are okay and they fucking eat people. Haven't seen a poncy elf do THAT lately.  





Also: I think the 'We gotta keep it Imperium based' argument goes out the window with the announced development of the Chaos Marine core book.  Just sayin'.

In a word...no.

Quote from: Spike;452777So, you think having orks running around as Sanctioned Xenos on human worlds... currently encouraged in Rogue Trader... is more in keeping with the fans and the canon as it currently stands than having an Eldar doing the same thing?

You're thinking in broad strokes.  The "sanctioning" actually has precedent, from almost a decade ago.  Kal Jericho's mother was an Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos and had a pet kroot.  Other Inquisitors have had different relationships with xenos, but that's the most intimate I can think of.

The inclusion of orks and kroot is the very special exception that has been included in the game for the sake of completeness that everyone is saying is missing.

Seems in line to me.

Quote from: Spike;452777I mean, I know I haven't exactly bought assloads of codexes and shit since 5th edition 40k came out, but obviously something big changed along the way.  I mean... was in the novels or something, 'cause I read those too, but lately I've been all in the Horus Heresy shit and there ain't no orks there.

I don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Quote from: Spike;452777Seriously: You are not trying to claim that Eldar have been deliberately marginalized to keep the 40k fans from crying 'that ain't canon!' are you?

I mean seriously: Kroot are okay and they fucking eat people. Haven't seen a poncy elf do THAT lately.

Seriously: Eldar don't fucking hang out with humans much.  Kroot, tau... they actually do (in a limited fashion), or do you know what the term gue'vesa means?

Humans would treat xenos like Nazis treated Jews.

Quote from: Spike;452777Also: I think the 'We gotta keep it Imperium based' argument goes out the window with the announced development of the Chaos Marine core book.  Just sayin'.

That's entirely incorrect.  If you think that Black Crusade is NOT about the Imperium and humanocentric, you would be wrong.

I'm semi-cool with space elves, in that I don't like 'em and wouldn't use 'em in my games as friendly NPCs and would never personally play one, but it doesn't chafe my dick if people want them either (I put them in as a playable option in my ongoing conversion of 40K to Stars Without Numbers at Silverlion's request). Personally, I prefer the more inhuman aliens of the universe - Tyranids, Necrons, etc.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452744Whee!

Protip: The first page of a search for almost any term used in 40K will take you to "Lexicanum", the exhaustive 40K wiki that has material from all five editions of the game compiled together for free.

This thread was good for something! Thanks for that link!

Quote from: Blackhand;452751All right, for a second I actually felt bad for how you were getting hammered.  

Of course you didn't. At least have the integrity to be honest and consistent.

Quote from: Spike;452762Learn to fucking read. I said that you were making an interesting a valid point, but are such a complete fucking idiot that having you as a standard bearer for that point makes any real conversation...about said point... pointless.

But, you know, its just to much to ask of you to actually read and understand one. simple. post.  I mean... next I'll be asking you to read an entire thread!

Horrors!

No, this is what you said:

Quote from: Spike;452650I think a perfectly valid point could be made about the weird scattershot presentation of various elements of the 40k universe in the FFG games.

However, Ghost Whistler is not making that point.

And that's not including the unprovoked abuse that comprises the rest of the post.

What is this I don't even...

Quote

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;452753I still find it bizarre that you insist on buying DW-only branded material,

Still. Not. Listening.

I havent insisted anything of the kind. Not wanting to buy other sourcebooks for the other games isn't because of some elitist 'DW only please' nonsense you imply. It's because it's expensive to buy these books and prioritising them over stuff like RoB is not at all economically viable.

QuoteYou are quite literally ignorant of what you are talking about when you talk about "balance" and "optimisation" and all that in reference to the antagonists. DH and RT have plenty of antagonists that serve perfectly well in DW.

Of course I'm ignorant of these things, I havent played the game! Most people that don't own the rules/haven't read or played them/ havent' read the other books mentioned are going to be ignorant of them! You are asking me to believe what you say, and given how quickly you decided to chuck your toys out the pram when you couldn't grasp (and still can't, despite me explaining it many many times) the point I was making.

QuoteAlso, the constant nonsense about "only a small part of the material" being relevant is getting tiresome, since as I've said several times now, it's untrue.

Of course it's not untrue. CA contain a lot material that isn't of any interest to me: the only stuff that's useful is the xeno chapter. The rest of the stuff is not what I'm after.

QuoteHere, here's a real example from someone who plays all three games (your humble interlocutor) about using material from one book in another:

Fuck me, it's like educating pork.

I don't own all three games. I don't have £80 to spare on DH or RT nor do i want to have to heft around three corebooks to run DW (and that won't include supplements I do want). It's also not what I woudl call efficient.
If my humble interlocutor wishes to do this, that's entirely his right to do so. I haven't criticised him for it either, yet you feel quite at liberty to be massively rude and disrespectful to me in turn.

QuoteIllst has been built as a DH Ascension-level character (with a few twists). The first step in capturing him is hunting down his old associate Titus Hyle, a Chaos sorcerer dedicated to Nurgle who is built as an Ascension-level character with spells from Disciples of the Dark Gods andRadical's Handbook, and a few traits from the DW corebook.

So now we also have Ascension, £40, Disciples £35 (iirc) and Radicals (same).
So that's, in total and not including DW, almost £200 to run the game in the way you clearly endorse. And that's all for info to build a couple of characters. That to you is reasonable and proportionate, yes?

QuoteTitus Hyle's forces include some daemonhosts (DH corebook), some hordes of corrupted Imperial Guardsmen (DW corebook), a shipment of Chimeras (Rites of Battle), Twist Hulk bodyguards (Creatures Anathema), some CSMs (DW corebook), and some commanders / high level cultists armed with archaeotech / xeno weaponry Illst has given him (Imperial Guard Field Officers from the DW corebook with Xenarch Death Arcs from DH's Radical Handbook). Hyle had a Warhound Titan as well (Rites of Battle), but it was blown up last session.

Now we have Rites of Battle, which is for DW and so will be on balance more useful as a purchase, which is also £35 and CA which is about £30.

So in total, to play DW this way would set me back in total roughly £300 to have all the options, including the core book, as provided by FFG.

And that's not considering the practicalities of lugging around all this stuff to and from games, cross referncing all these books to do all this either. It's not exactly efficient is it!

You're nuts, pal. No wonder you can't see reason. You're away with the fucking faeiries.

And that's after I made it perfectly clear that, if money was no object, I'd buy all these books and that if someone offered me them i'd bite their hand off to accept.

Is there any point in you even responding? YOu clearly don't read what I write.

QuoteSo basically, cross-compatibility between lines is very high, and claims that you'll only use a "small portion" or whatever of each book is basically dependent on you, not the books.

Well to a relatively small degree, yes. But not overall: ascension is for high level DH characters. As a whole it won't be as useful as RoB would be and so it's not economically viable. Even if it were, it's still a lot of money - a lot more money than the corebook.

Pathetic.

The major point is that you're throwing around all this nonsense while simultaneously admitting you don't have any of the material and have never played that game.

It's pretty stupid.  It IS like trying to educate pork.

So quit trying to "educate" us, you need some schooling yourself.

In fact, fuck you again for saying that.

Quote from: Blackhand;452788You're thinking in broad strokes.  The "sanctioning" actually has precedent, from almost a decade ago.  Kal Jericho's mother was an Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos and had a pet kroot.  Other Inquisitors have had different relationships with xenos, but that's the most intimate I can think of.

The inclusion of orks and kroot is the very special exception that has been included in the game for the sake of completeness that everyone is saying is missing.

Seems in line to me.

I don't have a problem with sanctioning. I have a point about the race choices presented by FFG.  Last I checked, Orks could be seriously considered an infectious pestilence, due to all that spore shedding and whatnot, creating new, psychopathically violent, unsanctioned orks everywhere they went.   And the Imperium KNOWS this about orks (whether they are right or not is irrelevant), so why would they EVER sanction one to walk around on Imperium worlds, no matter how cool a dude he was?  He's a fucking typhoid mary!

Of course, Orks are very popular. As in 'Waagh' shouts are far more common and enthusiastic at tournements than, say 'Blood for the Blood God' or "For the Emperor" or any of a dozen other battlecries.  Kroot have their fans. Hell, I like Kroot.  But outside of a fairly marginal fanbase that is ALREADY built into the fanbase of 40k, they got no real crossover appeal.   Fucking pansy ass space elves, however, do. And they have a history, checked as it is, of working with the imperium, from Inquisitors heading to the Black Library, to actual, if infrequent negotiations and temporary alliances between the Imperium and Eldar.

I mean, if I were selecting races to be included in the game for personal reasons, I would have picked the Tau, personally. But from a business standpoint? Fucking space elves all day every day.

QuoteI don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

I was responding to your apparent attitude that you know much more about 40k than I do, or rather anyone you disagree with. It was snark, it remains snark, but also, I serious have given up on the table top rules until GW gets its head out of its ass and stops treating the customers/fans like raw meat. So its also an admission that if a major canon change has swept through the fifth edition codexes... like fucking space elves suddenly worshipping papa nurgle and Orks being sadly misunderstood... choppas aren't meant as weapons, they're really for knitting and the Orks really just want some good yarn... then I probably missed it.

QuoteSeriously: Eldar don't fucking hang out with humans much.  Kroot, tau... they actually do (in a limited fashion), or do you know what the term gue'vesa means?

But Tau aren't included, so gue'vesa means jack and shit for this discussion. Of course, that means that Tau would be MORE unwelcome in the Imperium than fucking space elves, since fucking space elves don't have a program of proseltyzation going on, now do they?

Also, you are demonstrably wrong about fucking space elves. They have an entire caste/path of exiles that leave eldar space and just do shit, occasionally returning to fight as Rangers... but otherwise, canonically, doing shit like... hanging with Rogue Traders as mercenaries, infiltrating human space to keep an eye on the monkeys... I mean mon'kieghs, telling Inquisitors that bad shit is coming down so the stupid monkeys put their big ships in teh way first.

QuoteHumans would treat xenos like Nazis treated Jews.

And? We are talking about the choice of which aliens got the sanction. There isn't a debate that sanctioning occurs and why a fancy term like sanctioning is necessary.

QuoteThat's entirely incorrect.  If you think that Black Crusade is NOT about the Imperium and humanocentric, you would be wrong.

Humanocentic, yes, which is why I didn't claim it wasn't that. However, its as much about the Imperium as Nazi Germany was about Poland.   Seriously, being the enemy of something is not exactly the same as being about something.