I would not be surprised if the VTT is ultimately a dead project and #Hasbro will simply pivot to licensing like they have with every other franchise they own when it comes to RPGs. It only makes sense to cut out the middle man if you make more money by doing so.

The thing to consider with this is that TTRPGs are by their nature infinite. And a Western Erotic Game video game like Baldur's Gate 3 is inherently finite and limited. Whilst BG3 has stellar production values for all it's graphic sex scenes gameplay, People are going to get bored by it. Especially as they realize how rushed and undercooked Act 2 onwards is. Whereas a well produced and well funded official VTT for DnD could do really well. Especially if it has a form of AI GM. Meaning all those Critical Role secondaries looking for a GM instead of actually learning to GM themselves will finally be able to play.

Quote from: King Tyranno on August 25, 2023, 10:32:31 AM
The thing to consider with this is that TTRPGs are by their nature infinite. And a Western Erotic Game video game like Baldur's Gate 3 is inherently finite and limited. Whilst BG3 has stellar production values for all it's graphic sex scenes gameplay, People are going to get bored by it.

True. Look at Skyrim. For a few days in 2011 it was all the rage but after that it was soon forgotten..

Quote
Especially as they realize how rushed and undercooked Act 2 onwards is.

This doesn't explain all those videos, clips and social media posts about "having beaten the game ten times but I'm still not sure I saw everything" - but whatever.

Quote
Whereas a well produced and well funded official VTT for DnD could do really well. Especially if it has a form of AI GM.

This is the very crux of the problem. First, BG3 already has mods. A lot of them. Larian confirmed that it is fully moddable, but that they are not planning to introduce a GM mode.

However, in the same article, Larian says that modders could create a GM mode. It would require hard work, a dedicated team, modders with specific technical knowledge, time... but it can be done. Larian, simply, wants to devote the time and effort needed for it to other things they feel being more important.

BG3, however, was born over a long period and created by a self-sustaining studio that had already proved itself by creating Beyond Divinity 1 & 2. What experience WotC has in the same field? Nothing proven.

So, some people are starting to wonder: Wait a minute... If WotC had managed to revoke the OGL, a GM mod for BG3 - or a VTT based on a licensed BG3's engine, would have become illegal. It was in the wording. Is it possible that WotC was aware of the potential of BG3 (and maybe other upcoming games) and tried to block forever any form of D&D VTT not controlled by them? Inquiring mind want to know...

I posted this video elsewhere, but I'll repost it here. It is an analysis by The Rules Lawyer on these very points. For sure, he makes an interesting case.

Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing.  I don't see it replacing D&D.  I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly.  Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing.  I don't see it replacing D&D.  I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly.  Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.

The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.

I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.

The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.

Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing.  I don't see it replacing D&D.  I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly.  Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.

The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.

I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.

The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.

Hasbro can shut down modding at any time they want.  They can go to the game stores and tell them no.  They can go to Nexxus  Mods and threaten them with a lawsuit.  The tool would most likely be based on DOS:2, its not that good and no you aren't going to want that as a VTT.

The more programmed the VTT is the worse it is for flexibility.  The best D&D Game I ran was D&D Beyond and Dungeonfog.  I dropped D&D Beyond finally due to the OGL.

Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing.  I don't see it replacing D&D.  I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly.  Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.

The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.

I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.

The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.

To repost from another thread:

In my  opinion:

A BG3 "GM mode" is not competition for D&D's VTT.

The One VTT is a one-stop shop linked to D&D beyond that will have all future AP's and adventure modules plug-and-play - with all the little 'optional' cosmetic transactions for PC's ready to go...

The overwhelming majority of GM's are just too damn lazy to roll their own on some BG3 "GM mode", and will go with the option that gets them playing the new hotness adventure path from Wotzi with the least resistance.

Quote from: i on August 25, 2023, 03:56:01 PM

Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing.  I don't see it replacing D&D.  I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly.  Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.

The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.

I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.

The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.

Hasbro can shut down modding at any time they want.  They can go to the game stores and tell them no.  They can go to Nexxus  Mods and threaten them with a lawsuit.

...And lose on the spot, as modding is not illegal as long as it isn't made for money. The workaround are "spontaneous donations" that people can give to the modder - but as long the mod is free it is legal.

Second: just imagine Hasbro attempting to shut down mods for BG3. I think that even the place where they work would be razed to the ground. It would be "let's revoke the OGL!" squared, as the gamers would spot the real intention immediately. TikTok, BTW, will be full of videos showing Paizo's employers committing auto-erotic practices in the open, amid people applauding.

Third: Hasbro is making money from BG3. Shutting down the modding scene would be instant monetary suicide. There is a reason as why Bethesda is still selling Skyrim after 12 years.

Fourth: I license BG3 engine (property of Larian) and do what the OGL permits me to do. Hasbro's "evil move" would be...? Nothing. They could act legally had the revocation of the OGL worked - but they failed.

From the draft of the VTT policy that ended up nuked:

"What isn't permitted are features that don't replicate your dining room table storytelling. If you replace your imagination with an animation of the Magic Missile streaking across the board to strike your target, or your VTT integrates our content into an NFT, that's not the tabletop experience. That's more like a video game."


And then they proceeded to show their animation of a Magic Missile, the only one permitted - your imagination be damned (at 4:11):



Lo?!

This is why people now are starting to notice how people can create their own VTTs starting with proven (and already published) engines: because, thinking back, Hasbro tried to ban this before the cat was out of the bag via a stunt - and they "rolled 1".

Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 04:40:05 PM

Quote from: i on August 25, 2023, 03:56:01 PM

Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing.  I don't see it replacing D&D.  I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly.  Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.

The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.

I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.

The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.

Hasbro can shut down modding at any time they want.  They can go to the game stores and tell them no.  They can go to Nexxus  Mods and threaten them with a lawsuit.

...And lose on the spot, as modding is not illegal as long as it isn't made for money. The workaround are "spontaneous donations" that people can give to the modder - but as long the mod is free it is legal.

Tell me you don't know what you are talking about without telling me you don't know what you are talking about.  The Digital Millennium Copyright Act in the United States makes it illegal to circumvent, break, or decrypt any copy protection or encrypted files even if it is for non-commercial use.. I've worked on a couple of projects that got "Foxed," and non-commercial intent is irrelevant (the standard is simply "might affect the viability or sales of products from that IP"; which is a bar so low an ant could walk over it).  Unless Larian has coded the whole game in plain text files (or releases the source code in the public domain), you can only modify or add to the game files using any data you can reverse engineer without breaking any encryption or copy protection.  Good luck with that...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 25, 2023, 07:58:29 PM

Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 04:40:05 PM

Quote from: i on August 25, 2023, 03:56:01 PM

Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing.  I don't see it replacing D&D.  I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly.  Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.

The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.

I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.

The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.

Hasbro can shut down modding at any time they want.  They can go to the game stores and tell them no.  They can go to Nexxus  Mods and threaten them with a lawsuit.

...And lose on the spot, as modding is not illegal as long as it isn't made for money. The workaround are "spontaneous donations" that people can give to the modder - but as long the mod is free it is legal.

Tell me you don't know what you are talking about without telling me you don't know what you are talking about.

Thank you for providing an example of that in the following paragraph.

Quote
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act in the United States makes it illegal to circumvent, break, or decrypt any copy protection or encrypted files even if it is for non-commercial use..

First, a mod doesn't do that. A mod that alters the source code would be illegal, I agree, and I remember a case where it happened: years ago for Falcon 4.0. A mod that uses copyrighted material may miff the copyright holder - however, we have ton of mods that turn let's say, Medieval: Total War II into The Lord of the Rings (even using material from the Peter Jackson's movies), or Crusader Kings 2 into Game of Thrones, since forever, and they are still publishing more. Not to mention how "going against people who published their D&D creation for free on the internet" was one of those things that helped to sink TSR.

But, second, even if the above is made irrelevant the very moment I respect the OGL, I'm modding BG3, which is Larian's, not WotC. So, Larian already said yes, the contents are under OGL... What legal whines remain to WotC? None.

I don't understand why you are repeatedly missing the obvious: if a simple legal action was already enough to stop BG3 to become a VTT, why to even add the foundation needed for such an action in a new version of the OGL? That's what gave Hasbro's game away.

As has been pointed out before, the main problem that BG3 poses for WotC is that it greatly raises the bar of what players (and especially new players) will expect of a D&D VTT. Even if WotC meets these expectations by 2026 or so, the standard will again have shifted by then. WotC will continuously have to try to catch up and it will probably fail at creating a truly state-of-the-art system.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 25, 2023, 07:58:29 PM

Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 04:40:05 PM

Quote from: i on August 25, 2023, 03:56:01 PM

Quote from: Reckall on August 25, 2023, 03:15:39 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on August 25, 2023, 01:55:22 PM
Divinity Original Sins 2 (Larian, BG3 is based on that engine obviously) had a campaign mode, never really my thing.  I don't see it replacing D&D.  I so much prefer DM'ing my in person games because its so much easier to adapt the rules on the fly.  Meanwhile using Fantasy Grounds to homebrew content takes considerably longer.

The point isn't "replacing D&D". The point is "When you tried to revoke the OGL there was also this trap: no D&D VTT except ours." Now BG3 is out, is moddable, can become a VTT, and the engine comes from a company with an established track record. Meanwhile, WotC has nothing out - either now or from the past.

I don't use VTTs. Fantasy Grounds helps me in running CoC7E - but I still sketch the situation with a pencil on paper, and use my iPad to show pictures (even, dunno, Boston in 1920, or how a photo camera was in 1919) to establish the era and the place. Again, this is not the point.

The point is that WotC/Hasbro want VTTs - and some people are realising that they failed to stop any competition and right now could well be panicking.

Hasbro can shut down modding at any time they want.  They can go to the game stores and tell them no.  They can go to Nexxus  Mods and threaten them with a lawsuit.

...And lose on the spot, as modding is not illegal as long as it isn't made for money. The workaround are "spontaneous donations" that people can give to the modder - but as long the mod is free it is legal.

Tell me you don't know what you are talking about without telling me you don't know what you are talking about.  The Digital Millennium Copyright Act in the United States makes it illegal to circumvent, break, or decrypt any copy protection or encrypted files even if it is for non-commercial use.. I've worked on a couple of projects that got "Foxed," and non-commercial intent is irrelevant (the standard is simply "might affect the viability or sales of products from that IP"; which is a bar so low an ant could walk over it).  Unless Larian has coded the whole game in plain text files (or releases the source code in the public domain), you can only modify or add to the game files using any data you can reverse engineer without breaking any encryption or copy protection.  Good luck with that...

Apparently you missed where Larian, the owners of source code, have said they are encouraging modders to go to town on their product and have even said modders building their own GM Mode for the game is something they'd like to see.

You need a victim for there to be a crime.

I've not seen any rush by law enforcement to come down on past modding communities either.

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 26, 2023, 08:01:11 AM
Apparently you missed where Larian, the owners of source code, have said they are encouraging modders to go to town on their product and have even said modders building their own GM Mode for the game is something they'd like to see.

Apparently, you missed watching the video I posted. Don't worry, I'll do the HARD WORK for you... 

https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dm-tool

Choice quotes (as, if you don't watch a video, I doubt that you will read):

"We will support modding, after release, there will be a lot of support coming for modding, but not right away.

[Mods already exists, BTW]

Vincke goes on to tie BG3 modding to this proposed GM tool, saying that modders could feasibly put a team together and make a dungeon or play space within the Larian engine, but that it would just take a lot of staff and time.

As the game released in Steam Early Access back in 2020, Baldur's Gate 3 mods have actually already taken off, as we've put the best of them together and will continue to expand upon our breakdown after release. Vincke has already said that the base game of Baldur's Gate 3 will be like your own Game of Thrones adventure as well, so it's not like BG3 will be small in scope.

EDIT: This interview was from a time when Larian projected to see one tenth of the copies currently sold. Add to this that BG3 was never meant for XBox - until, two days ago. This is something that made the channels that cover XBox to have sex online in the open (amid applauding crowds - think of the ending of "A Clockwork Orange").

So, no one knows what Larian will actually do now. They promised "A full game, no micro transactions (right here you are hated by Hasbro), and no DLC. Funnily enough, the crowds are restless: "We WANT DLCs... Not making them is insane".

Not to mention how, ten times the players means, possibly, ten times the team of modders. As someone who follows the Skyrim scene, mods produced in 2022 are astounding. I see no reason for the same thing to happen here.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on August 26, 2023, 04:47:42 AM
As has been pointed out before, the main problem that BG3 poses for WotC is that it greatly raises the bar of what players (and especially new players) will expect of a D&D VTT. Even if WotC meets these expectations by 2026 or so, the standard will again have shifted by then. WotC will continuously have to try to catch up and it will probably fail at creating a truly state-of-the-art system.

Agreed. This is the real point of Dungeon Master's video. BG3 appears to be so much better than Hasbro's VTT will be, that any idea of luring video gamers to their new VTT is highly questionable, and we already know that a portion of TTRPG players who prioritize roleplaying over pure combat will not embrace Hasbro's VTT. The Dungeon Master's further point is that BG3 is so good at representing the video-game version of actual D&D, that many current D&D players who might have joined the VTT may say, "I will just split my time between BG3, etc., and TTRPGs, and forego paying $10+ per month for Hasbro's VTT."

No one is saying that Hasbro's VTT will not have a ton of players and make some money. The question is whether the VTT will make the amazing money that these Microsoft executives have promised Hasbro shareholders, and that the VTT represent this new paradigm shift that they blather on about. Corporate politics and strategies being what they are, if this VTT venture does not double WOTC's D&D revenues, it will be considered a failure and there will be a purge of current leadership, and we might even see the VTT experiment canned.

Quote from: Reckall on August 26, 2023, 10:17:23 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on August 26, 2023, 08:01:11 AM
Apparently you missed where Larian, the owners of source code, have said they are encouraging modders to go to town on their product and have even said modders building their own GM Mode for the game is something they'd like to see.

Apparently, you missed watching the video I posted. Don't worry, I'll do the HARD WORK for you... 

https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dm-tool

Choice quotes (as, if you don't watch a video, I doubt that you will read):

"We will support modding, after release, there will be a lot of support coming for modding, but not right away.

[Mods already exists, BTW]

Vincke goes on to tie BG3 modding to this proposed GM tool, saying that modders could feasibly put a team together and make a dungeon or play space within the Larian engine, but that it would just take a lot of staff and time.

As the game released in Steam Early Access back in 2020, Baldur's Gate 3 mods have actually already taken off, as we've put the best of them together and will continue to expand upon our breakdown after release. Vincke has already said that the base game of Baldur's Gate 3 will be like your own Game of Thrones adventure as well, so it's not like BG3 will be small in scope.

EDIT: This interview was from a time when Larian projected to see one tenth of the copies currently sold. Add to this that BG3 was never meant for XBox - until, two days ago. This is something that made the channels that cover XBox to have sex online in the open (amid applauding crowds - think of the ending of "A Clockwork Orange").

So, no one knows what Larian will actually do now. They promised "A full game, no micro transactions (right here you are hated by Hasbro), and no DLC. Funnily enough, the crowds are restless: "We WANT DLCs... Not making them is insane".

Not to mention how, ten times the players means, possibly, ten times the team of modders. As someone who follows the Skyrim scene, mods produced in 2022 are astounding. I see no reason for the same thing to happen here.

I don't see where you think I missed something. I was agreeing with you. And saying that the Copyright laws need a victim for them to be enforced. Larian has supported modding their games so they wouldn't be going after people for modding (which is what Erikruatha was claiming because it would violate copyright laws to mod it).